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Patriots Border Alliance Accused of Lies and Neo-Nazi Ties

By David Holthouse on May 8, 2008 - 8:34 am, Posted in Anti-Immigrant

It’s been a bad month at Black Rock for the Patriots Border Alliance, a border vigilante group formed last year by disgruntled former Minuteman Civil Defense Corps officials.

First Phoenix New Times blogger Stephen Lemons unearthed a photo of Patriots Border Alliance leaders and members posing with a wheelchair-bound Elton Hall, a septuagenarian neo-Nazi and past Arizona organizer for George Lincoln Rockwell’s American Nazi Party who still frequently attends racist skinhead festivals and anti-immigration demonstrations in the Phoenix area. Hall was injured in February when he was struck by a car while participating in a Patriots Border Alliance-sponsored protest outside a day labor center. The photo of him surrounded by adoring Patriots Border Alliance activists was posted on the group’s website accompanied by this caption: “PATRIOTS BORDER ALLIANCE HONORING ELTON HALL: In appreciation for your service, devotion, commitment to securing American border and promoting THE RULE OF LAW.”

Three days after the Hall photo surfaced, the El Paso Times ran a story in which Border Patrol spokesman Doug Mosier debunked several outlandish claims made by Patriots Border Alliance president Bob Wright at a recent meeting of the far-right Eagle Forum in Alamagordo, N.M.

At that meeting, Wright claimed that he’d been shocked during one recent mission on the Texas border when he’d spotted “hundreds” of people massed on the Mexican side of the line, waiting to cross.

Mosier told the Times, “We have never seen anything like that, nor have we even heard of anything like that.”

Wright also repeated the common border vigilante legend about “rape trees” on the border (Wright called them “sex trees”), to which women are supposedly tied and gang-raped by Mexican bandits.

“Again, we have never heard or seen such a thing,” Mosier said. “I am sure if this was factual, we would have at least heard something about it. … We know that some [women] are attacked. But trees? No. That is not true.”

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  • http://www.clottedcognition.com Liesl

    You know, Rob, I think you make a very good point. There was a big expose done on the news in L.A. when I lived there about the car washes being staffed by people who are here illegally and who are severely taken advantage of because they were too scared to go to the police or to demand something better.

    The reality is, we don’t hold the people who have the money and the power accountable because, well, they have the money and power. Until we change our most fundamental ideas about fairness and how we treat human beings, this will continue. There MUST be a systemic change in our society that forces (unfortunately) people to recognize that treating others as a means not an end is always, always, always leads to more problems than anything else.

    I think that’s why we have to continue to fight the hate, even if the hate is misplaced. So, while it would be excellent if people recognized the root of the problem, not just the result of it, they don’t. People aren’t taught critical thinking in school anymore, so it isn’t a huge surprise.

  • Rob English

    I have a question, and it is an honest one to which I would appreciate an answer. In the interest of open and honest discussion, I’ll tell anyone who reads this that I’m a white guy, have lived a lower to middle-class life, and believe strongly in the equal application of the rule of law (I won’t get into whether or not my last point is a reality in the US).

    I’ll preface this next paragraph by asking you to stick with me, I’m going somewhere with this…

    I have a brother-in-law, a legal immigrant from Europe, who worked his way though an undergrad degree with a pressure washing in Virginia. He has a tremendous work ethic, left school with no debt, and even had a substantial savings built up at the time he graduated. Later, he went to law school in Florida, but could not continue his business there because he could not, as a citizen of the US, do it as cheaply as illegal labor could and ended up taking on loans and spending his savings to pay for school. He has continued to be successful, and we’re all glad for it, but I can’t help but believe that he paid a price, literally and figuratively speaking, because the US tolerates illegal immigration. His hard work, as a legal immigrant, was less productive because of the actions of illegal immigrants… many of whom enjoy the same benefits as a bonafied citizen. When he talked to a few people in the contract labor business in Florida, he was told that his circumstance existed because jobs like pressure washing, painting parking lots, etc… was “Work that no one wants to do.”

    It seems to me that Mexico, a country with MASSIVE oil reserves, should be entirely capable of caring for it’s citizens, but doesn’t for a variety of reasons usually tied to corruption that revolves around the drug trade. It also seems apparent to me that there is no shortage of Latino activism in the Southwestern US. Why, instead of taking a position that encourages people to accept far less of the American dream than a legal immigrant could recieve (which can be pretty minimal at times…), do these activists not undertake political activisim in Mexico? Why not create “The Mexican Dream” by creating a country that sees to the obligations it has to it’s citizens? Wouldn’t all the money and man hours expended on fighting against all the anti-illegal immigration groups out there be better spent this way? If Mexico were a more livable place, wouldn’t this reduce dramatically reduce crime at the border (illegal crossing, drug smuggling, human trafficing, etc…) across the board?

    I am left with the conclusion that the real work, the work I describe above, is the work that no one wants to do. It seems to me that those who I describe above are not really interested in what is best for those who feel compelled to escape the ills of their lives by undertaking a potentially dangerous journey across the Southwestern Deserts. The appearance that all of this gives to me is one of political agendas and the ultra-American tradition of saying, “screw you!!!” to people we do not agree with. It does not give the appearance of a movement based human concerns for people who struggle.

    That’s my opinion, formed by observation at a distance. Again, I admit that I’m largely removed from this situation in many ways, but am eager to understand the REALITY on both sides, not the politics. Why does everyone involved in this debate seem so interested in addressing each other in hateful and often times sensational ways rather than the daily tragedy that all seem to agree needs to stop somehow? Any insights on anything I have said are welcome, but please be insightful… if you want to call names, etc… please waste someone else’s time. I’m interested in real discussion and opinions about obstacles to a good solution that could make a difference.

  • A. Jon Allred

    I am a Caucasian in Salt Lake City, where I have never had reason to fear anything. My sympathy goes to people who have suffered the effects of bigotry and hatred. My thanks go to SPLC for fighting against the oppression and unfairness that I am fortunate to have never experienced. I offer my support to anyone who obeys the law and works toward constitutional values. Such values include NOT judging people on skin color, culture, language.

    If immigrants are attracted to life in the United States because of our law-based society, then it is not acceptable to break immigration law to get those benefits. Citizenship should not begin with a crime. My thanks to SPLC for its work. Consider me a friend. I am saving some cash to send to SPLC.

  • 88`s Jeno-side

    Good Old Elton Hall, having seen the old fella myself a few months back, just before he was accidentally hit by a car while doing nothing but sitting around and protesting people who work in the country legally. Arizona has passed one of the most strongest anti-illegal immigration laws in this nation before other states decided to follow our lead.
    This law, which went into effect on 12am Jan. 1, 2008. Made it virtually impossible for illegal aliens to find work here, let alone–make a living here. Because the law requires that employers sign up for E-verify and that everyone emplyed by them must be in the country legally w/ proper work visas and documentation.
    Those that remained are here legally are already American citizens who have earned their citizenship status years ago or recently.

    The exodus of illegal aliens have left this state in the hundredeth thousands according the local A.P. Because of the new law, many of them can’t make a decent living here. Even many apts have refused to rent to illegal aliens.
    With the vast majority of illegal aliens gone and going. The ones that do remained are legal immigrants and Hispanic Americans.
    Most legit employers are not dumb enough to risk losing their business licences by hiring illegal aliens. Since compititors are known to give the ICE tips if they have discovered their rivals have hired illegal aliens into their workforce.

    So who are these Neo-Nazis really protesting here???

    Those that live here in the valley will surely know this answer. Because quite frankly just about every Hispanic I run into, is either an American citizen or legal immigrant. And if one were to look at the numbers arrested by Sheriff Joe Arpaio. Its almost a joke. 2% out of those apprehended by Joe are illegal aliens, that’s like 9 out of 35 arrested are illegal aliens.
    The Natavists on the other hand(and many of them unemplyed) staged these little protests outside the work center where Salvador Reza operates, which employs legal immigrants, are nothing more than a public nuisance, sitting around protesting Hispanics. Proud American People like myself are pretty fed up with this Natavists B.S. That they don’t seem to get the message clearly and than message is:

    THERE ARE NO ILLEGALS HERE BUT AMERICANS!!

    And speaking of Elton Hall`s old Nazi group. Its really nothing to boast about.
    In fact, the American Nazi Party was a complete sham and weren’t even noticed by anyone. For one–

    George Licncokn Rockwell was dirt poor and that the IRS has seized his assets.

    2.) George was also an alcoholic and have alienated himself from his family, he also suffered from depression and battled suicide according to his autobiography the”American Fueher”.

    3.) The ANP was basically a “paper organization” that the FBI did not bother to monitor them in their COINTELPRO program soley because the ANP did not have no more than 15 members. Therefore, the ANP didn’t have any impact on society as a whole.

    4.) George was finally assasinated by one of his own–John Patler, a fellow member of the ANP.

    Seriously this Nazi group was quite pathetic and it certainly was nothing to be proud about as Elton Hall gloats about frequently.
    He is certainly a stain on their image as a Natavist group and I hope he and others stay so that people will then began to realized that they are indeed just another hate mongering crowd taking up such patriotic names for their little group in order to desecrate the very good names of Freedom and American…..

  • Madjailer

    Well it seem to me that everyone forgot what the topic was. Please people stick to the subject. Lets talk about the current problem of illegal immigration. I’m not intested what they did in Rome or Carthage and who cares what Hannibal did or said. Were talking about illegal aliens entering our country today and the problems they cause. Sure many of them come here to try to make a better life for themselves. But in doing so there draining the resources my taxes are providing. I am not an anti Hispanic Hispanic I am a anti illegal immigration hispanic. Unfortunately that means I’m a anti “mexican” hispanic but whatever, call me what you want. I see the problem every day of my life here in my hometown (El Paso, TX). Its these problems that we need to be discussing. If a mexican citizens wants to come over to the US to make a better live for himself then good for him I wish him the best of luck, but he needs to do it legally and respect the laws of our country. We’ve had some people recently make an issue about local law enforcement asking for immigration status. They have the gall to say that they are afraid to walk there kids to school in the mornings because they are afraid to get deported. Well I say they should be afraid they have broken the laws of our country and should be treated as any other criminal. Why should they be treated any different from any other criminal? Why do we pander to these people? These are the issues I’m concerned with not what “handle” someone uses.

  • Hugh

    “Because they believe a country’s laws should be respected they are self loathing Hispanics with no pride?”

    No, because even though they know that by and large the “anti-illegal immigration” crowd isn’t really about illegal immigration or immigration at all, but rather about their hatred of Hispanics regardless of their immigration status using the “illegal immigration” issue to mask their hatred. And they still support them. That is why.

  • playboy

    “Speaking of names Playboy or Jose Cuervo. Unlike you, I do not steal the names of a trademarked company such as Playboy and Jose Cuervo. That’s like a violation of copy-righted laws.”

    Yes I know. I’m preparing right now to turn myself in and take my medicine like a good boy. While at Gestapo Headquarters, is there anything else I should confess to?

    Incidentally, you know you’re standing on pretty firm ground by criticizing me for something so important as using a trademark handle. I mean, now if I were using some kind of handle that would denote killing, evil and hatred, like “genocide,” then I’d be home free. People wouldn’t connect me at all to the meaning of the word, suspecting that I might well be a nut case.
    Gracias.

    “Then again, you call yourself “Playboy” as if you have an addiction to pornagraphy, let alone sex addiction. Jose Cuervo the origin of this name can be found here:
    http://www.planeta.com/ecotrav…..uervo.html
    Even if you claimed your not Mexican, calling yourself “Hispanic” only to take up a Mexican name is hyprocritcal.

    HAHAHA. What absolute childishness. Not one word of intelligent thought. El Loco.

    “Well you’re not Hispanic as you claim to be, either that or you simply don’t have any ounce of self-respect.”

    Well, well, well, so if a person identifies himself as Hispanic he has no self-respect, eh? What is there, that a loving and tolerating angel such as yourself finds so despicable about Hispanics, that you would declare someone as lacking in respect to claim he was one, as if Hispanics were the scourge of the earth? Are you the same guy who called me a hater and a racist?

    “Regardless of what you choose to call yourself, I couldn’t care less if its gonna be “idiot”, “natavist” et al. So I won’t dignify that with a response.”

    Don’t look now, but you just dignified that with a response.

    “However, with regards to my username, you have taken my name out of context . So I feel the need to set another record straight and address this to you crystal clear so that you`ll understand because quite frankly, you assertions if grossly inaccurate.

    “I chose my name out of my own free will to coicide with the downsizing of the current Neo-Nazi movement in the U.S. Anyone who is watching the movement will know that their numbers continue to decline significantly due to their ongoing conflicts between one another. They are not well organized as a legitimate organization whether they’re the NSM, Creativity Movement, or any other small group which is only a significant few. Their fallacy is what inspired my username because they no longer have the influence/power to impact society.”

    You need to see a shrink, old boy. You’re barely hanging on, and it appears as if you might slip over the edge.

    “Who do you wish to Kill”?

    “If you had a focused reading comprehensional skills, which seems to be lacking, then you would very well know I never said anything about killing or killing of cultures. The neo-nazi movement in the U.S. is in a self-destruct mode and you know it.”

    Using a particular handle that unequivocally infers killing and murder of an entire people is the product of someone who is allowing his subconscious thoughts to slip through. Some call it a Freudian slip.

    And I couldn’t care less about neo-Nazis. They’re as screwed up as those of you on the radical left fringe.

    My God, man, do you suspect everybody of being a neo-nazi if he doesbn’t agree with your propaganda? Better see a shrink.

    “What are your handle? Or handles?”

    “I have no idea what you are talking about there so I won’t respond to that question.”

    You just responded to my question.

    “Furthermore, with you bringing up the “jewish” in you posts, you seemed to have some kind have beef with them and it explains why your anti-semetic. Lets face it, you’re not Hispanic, you’re a closet racists impostering as such. You’re a hyprocite.”

    Actually, old boy, I like Jews in general, but I love to rattle the cage of one who is an evil ideologue to get his dander up. The best way to do that is identify him as a Jew. Comprendez?

    “Well you know who you are.”

    I know very well who I am, and I know who you are as well.

  • playboy

    Liesl: ["Again, you’re nitpicking over a figure of speech in an attempt to dodge anything of value. It’s called distraction and it’s fallacious."]

    Wanting someone to be clear and logical is “nitpicking?” Hilarious. You understand very little.

    “You mean you can’t see the illogical aspect of your supposed rebuttal? Claiming that support for your points can be found by studying the history of countries you listed by putting the onus on your opponent to research your rebuttal is the suggestion of a child, and wouldn’t one learn of Hannibal when he references Carthage? He was the most important figure in that country’s history. He almost conquered Rome.”

    LIESL: [Actually, if you were not someone who had studied history pointing out that Hannibal might be of particular interest was perfectly logical. Sorry for assuming you would be able to make that logical leap. ]

    That’s absolute nonsense. Childish as well. You can’t sufficiently rebut my points. Nothing you wrote addresses the above point. Your reading comprehension is very bad. Your comprension for abstract points is even worse. Are you a teenager?

    “Why not? Can you give me a SENSIBLE example? I would be glad to exchange views with you on any aspect of world history you choose. You seem to naively believe that all you have to do is levy some kind of accusation against someone and that’s sufficient to prove your point. It’s probably an extension of your mindless incantations of charging people with racism and hate, as if just the accusation itself is sufficient to prove your point.”

    Liesl: [There is NO WAY I can sit down and write a small snippet of history to satisfy your nitpicky idea of what has and has not happened. In educated circles, the mention of a thing is sufficient to get everyone on the same page because everyone is educated and knows what the speaker is talking about. Again, I won’t make that assumption about you again.]

    “Nitpicky?” Hahaha. Hilarious. Because I want you to be supporting of your information when you make a claim. Where would I find the definbition of “Nitpicky?”

    “You claimed I was a coward for not listing a name. I offerred you my email address, so if you’re wanting to really test my knowledge of world history you could do that.”

    Liesl: [No thanks. I don’t give my email address to anyone and everyone.]

    Then watch your tongue when you tell someone that he lacks courage when it is your own that is in question.

    Liesl: [As for the rest of your post, it’s simply a red herring. Just because we are talking about hatred and racism here does not mean we are also not concerned with depleted resources or any other world threat. The fact remains, the focus of this blog is hate groups; naturally, we’re discussing hate and racism. It’s not that hard to understand, really. If you want to talk about over population or anything else there are other places to do just that.]

    Missed my point again, didn’t you? It is that you are making the topics you have been indoctrinated with your centerpiece in everything you do, to the point that more important problems are far, far greater, but go unrecognized by you. And I say that after reading much of what those of you do who have similar brainwashed mindsets. You might want someone to believe you have equal concerns, but you do not—at least of any significance.

    Liesl: [You remind me of the character Edward Norton plays in American History X. I find some of the scenes in that movie so incredibly disturbing because the character is able to employ what look like, on face value, reasonable arguments. However, the conclusions will always be hateful and therefore fallacious. But the fact is, people who are able to argue seemingly well are more frightening than the jack booted thugs on the streets. Your arguments do not possess substance to someone who knows better, but what of the people who do not? I find your type of subtle racism the most lethal. Yes, you can call racism and its inherent trajectories overdone, but that does not change what it is or what it applies to. Either way, I won’t support your attempts any further.]

    One of the first stages of denial that a brainwashed mind goes through is to attack the person who is forcing him/her to think if that person lays out reasonable arguments with validity, because it is the biased conditioning in the subconscious that is screaming to stop the flow of upsetting information which is disturbing the usual thought patterns, especially because it is so convincing.

    Be honest and ask yourself if you want to learn to think objectively and increase your power of thought, which in turn will make you mentally stronger and sharper. Most ideologues will answer in the affirmative, but conditioning is a horrible monster to control and conquer, and all sorts of demons are imagined.

    One of the finest propaganda tactics ever employed on a population is to make it believe that diversity is good and homgeneity is evil. It’s a process that has been in play by masters who know well how the game is played, and they have inculcated in you just exactly what they want you to think. It’s what you accuse me of, isn’t it? But what you fear I’m trying to do has already happened to you.

    You see, all peoples of the earth want to be with their own kind. It’s very natural. In order to change a person’s human insticts and natural desire for homogeneity, his/her mind has to be hammered constantly with cliches and mindless repetition, (Diversity is strength; black is beautiful; legitimately criticizing minorities is bad, etc. on and on and on.) Wanting to kill or enslave someone is the nonsense you are bombarded with to further demonize someone or some group that might put forth logical points that are truthful and persuasive and are a danger to the stability of the mental conditioning instilled.

    You are not permitted to think of anyone in a favorable light that offers information that could taint your programming. They are called “Haters,” and “Racists, ” no matter if all they want to do is be with their own people and have their own communities. Everybody is required to go along 100% with their programming or they are castigated and despised with with taunts and threats and insulted thoroughly.

    Once a particular mindset is implanted in an individual, then an expansion of the same ideas are employed. Some of the greatest propagandists in history were Joseph Goebbels, Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, Joseph Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong the first, plus many more.

    But the ones that are responsible for your mentors’ rabidity are Cultural Marxists, primarily of the Frankfort School, but extending much further especially at Eastern universities and those in California. But there has been a snowball effect of sorts. They’ve done a masterful job of getting you to the point where you are right now.

    Getting you out of your present condition would require a person or persons to employ the same concepts and strategies used by the experts to de-program cultists of various whacko sects that believe vehemently in bizarre concepts, like they must do certain things in order to prepare for the mothership when it comes to earth and takes them to Jupiter where a colony has been set up. They believe in that as much as you do in political correctness, and when initial attempts are utilized to free themselves of those propagandized theories, they’re just apt to kill whomever is trying they’re so lost in it all. They’re convinced they’re being lied to, and only they are privy to the “Truth.”

    I’ve been subjected to exactly the same as you, but all my life I listened to what was told to me, looked around and saw things differently, plus my common sense disallowed me to fall under its spell. Political correctness, or Cultural Marxism, is an evil master that will allow no deviations whatsoever.

    I want no ideology imposed on me—EVER. Whether it’s from the right or the left.

    And, yes, I believe things you would hysterically scream racist at me for, but I believe them because they’re true, not because I have a natural propensity for hate. And when you hear them, no matter if it’s a simple conservative point of view, you would hurl insulting accusations at me, because you have been programmed to do so in spite of what might be right or true.

    Nobody is free unless his mind is free.

  • 88`s Jeno-Side

    Speaking of names Playboy or Jose Cuervo. Unlike you, I do not steal the names of a trademarked company such as Playboy and Jose Cuervo. That’s like a violation of copy-righted laws.
    Then again, you call yourself “Playboy” as if you have an addiction to pornagraphy, let alone sex addiction. Jose Cuervo the origin of this name can be found here:
    http://www.planeta.com/ecotrav.....uervo.html
    Even if you claimed your not Mexican, calling yourself “Hispanic” only to take up a Mexican name is hyprocritcal. Well you’re not Hispanic as you claim to be, either that or you simply don’t have any ounce of self-respect.
    Regardless of what you choose to call yourself, I couldn’t care less if its gonna be “idiot”, “natavist” et al. So I won’t dignify that with a response.

    However, with regards to my username, you have taken my name out of context . So I feel the need to set another record straight and address this to you crystal clear so that you`ll understand because quite frankly, you assertions if grossly inaccurate.

    I chose my name out of my own free will to coicide with the downsizing of the current Neo-Nazi movement in the U.S. Anyone who is watching the movement will know that their numbers continue to decline significantly due to their ongoing conflicts between one another. They are not well organized as a legitimate organization whether they’re the NSM, Creativity Movement, or any other small group which is only a significant few. Their fallacy is what inspired my username because they no longer have the influence/power to impact society.

    “Who do you wish to Kill”?

    If you had a focused reading comprehensional skills, which seems to be lacking, then you would very well know I never said anything about killing or killing of cultures. The neo-nazi movement in the U.S. is in a self-destruct mode and you know it.

    “What are your handle? Or handles?”

    I have no idea what you are talking about there so I won’t respond to that question.

    Furthermore, with you bringing up the “jewish” in you posts, you seemed to have some kind have beef with them and it explains why your anti-semetic. Lets face it, you’re not Hispanic, you’re a closet racists impostering as such. You’re a hyprocite.

    Well you know who you are.

  • http://www.clottedcognition.blogspot.com Liesl

    “A “figure of speech” in an effort to employ logic to disprove a point? Heh, heh, heh. It’s strictly high school rhetoric. Sorry. And I’m not interested in your blog.”

    Again, you’re nitpicking over a figure of speech in an attempt to dodge anything of value. It’s called distraction and it’s fallacious.

    “You mean you can’t see the illogical aspect of your supposed rebuttal? Claiming that support for your points can be found by studying the history of countries you listed by putting the onus on your opponent to research your rebuttal is the suggestion of a child, and wouldn’t one learn of Hannibal when he references Carthage? He was the most important figure in that country’s history. He almost conquered Rome.”

    Actually, if you were not someone who had studied history pointing out that Hannibal might be of particular interest was perfectly logical. Sorry for assuming you would be able to make that logical leap.

    “Why not? Can you give me a SENSIBLE example? I would be glad to exchange views with you on any aspect of world history you choose. You seem to naively believe that all you have to do is levy some kind of accusation against someone and that’s sufficient to prove your point. It’s probably an extension of your mindless incantations of charging people with racism and hate, as if just the accusation itself is sufficient to prove your point.”

    There is NO WAY I can sit down and write a small snippet of history to satisfy your nitpicky idea of what has and has not happened. In educated circles, the mention of a thing is sufficient to get everyone on the same page because everyone is educated and knows what the speaker is talking about. Again, I won’t make that assumption about you again.

    “You claimed I was a coward for not listing a name. I offerred you my email address, so if you’re wanting to really test my knowledge of world history you could do that.”

    No thanks. I don’t give my email address to anyone and everyone.

    As for the rest of your post, it’s simply a red herring. Just because we are talking about hatred and racism here does not mean we are also not concerned with depleted resources or any other world threat. The fact remains, the focus of this blog is hate groups; naturally, we’re discussing hate and racism. It’s not that hard to understand, really. If you want to talk about over population or anything else there are other places to do just that.

    You remind me of the character Edward Norton plays in American History X. I find some of the scenes in that movie so incredibly disturbing because the character is able to employ what look like, on face value, reasonable arguments. However, the conclusions will always be hateful and therefore fallacious. But the fact is, people who are able to argue seemingly well are more frightening than the jack booted thugs on the streets. Your arguments do not possess substance to someone who knows better, but what of the people who do not? I find your type of subtle racism the most lethal. Yes, you can call racism and its inherent trajectories overdone, but that does not change what it is or what it applies to. Either way, I won’t support your attempts any further.

  • playboy

    “I suspect you could figure out my job pretty easily if you clicked on my linked blog. Of course I do not have a job with the SPLC. It’s a figure of speech, but I suspect you knew that and are merely being obtuse. ”

    A “figure of speech” in an effort to employ logic to disprove a point? Heh, heh, heh. It’s strictly high school rhetoric. Sorry. And I’m not interested in your blog.

    “Also? never claimed Hannibal was a country, but again, I suspect you are simply being obtuse on purpose.”

    You mean you can’t see the illogical aspect of your supposed rebuttal? Claiming that support for your points can be found by studying the history of countries you listed by putting the onus on your opponent to research your rebuttal is the suggestion of a child, and wouldn’t one learn of Hannibal when he references Carthage? He was the most important figure in that country’s history. He almost conquered Rome.

    “Wow, apparently you aren’t as familiar with those countries, histories or people as you think you are. ”

    Why not? Can you give me a SENSIBLE example? I would be glad to exchange views with you on any aspect of world history you choose. You seem to naively believe that all you have to do is levy some kind of accusation against someone and that’s sufficient to prove your point. It’s probably an extension of your mindless incantations of charging people with racism and hate, as if just the accusation itself is sufficient to prove your point.

    You claimed I was a coward for not listing a name. I offerred you my email address, so if you’re wanting to really test my knowledge of world history you could do that.

    “I suspect you are someone who accepts only hate group approved history and are therefore denying history as we understand it. ”

    Can you tell me what “hate group history” is? And is history really to be understood or learned? Do you place your own “interpretation” on history rather than study the facts? Nobody does that unless he’s an ideologue that intends to employ revisionism to somehow support his ideology.

    Racism and hate are hurled so much by certain people the words have no meaning anymore, and the tactic is resorted to when no accurate information or logic can be rebutted. You won’t intimidate me, as you would like, by calling me a hater or a racist, because it’s nonsense and childish. Every racial group on earth are racists, under the true interpretation of the word.

    Don’t you ever concern yourself with other matters of the world, instead of focusing in only on the narrowmindedness of looking for things you perceive to be some kind of social pathology?

    I mean there are other things to be concerned about: Overpopulation and depleting water tables, which will mean less food, is a far greater threat to the future existence of this country and the world. You constantly speak of hate, yet you seem not the least concerned about jihadists who are terrorizing the world with bombs and other methods of killings. Instead you concentrate on calling some small vagabond group of individuals haters, as if they represent the most severe threat to humanity ever known. It’s nonsense.

    People who are so caught up in a fanatical concentration on this nonsense of racism and hate are no more than Pavlovian subjects that have been conditioned to salivate politically correct drivel when the politically correct bell is rung. They can no more think objectively than a rabid Marxist or a fascist or a Nazi, to a point of fanaticism.

  • http://www.clottedcognition.blogspot.com Liesl

    “Saying that information was started for the purpose of teaching, then claiming the decision blah blah blah…”

    Oh yeah, stopping mid-paragraph because I realized that my effort would be wasteful equals immaturity. Um… how does that work? Admitting that you do not have the time or energy to engage in something that is likely fruitless is far from immature or uneducated. You’d know that if you were engaging in a “cause” that was producing results.

    “What is your job? Do you have a “job” on here? Do you do nothing unless it is your “job?””

    I suspect you could figure out my job pretty easily if you clicked on my linked blog. Of course I do not have a job with the SPLC. It’s a figure of speech, but I suspect you knew that and are merely being obtuse.

    “I’m very familiar with all those countries mentioned, plus Hannibal, and I must point out none have anything to do with the Spanish/Amerindian population in the Americas, and you must understand that Hannibal was a Carthagenian. He was not a city like Rome or a country like Spain or Carthage.”

    Wow, apparently you aren’t as familiar with those countries, histories or people as you think you are. I suspect you are someone who accepts only hate group approved history and are therefore denying history as we understand it. Also? never claimed Hannibal was a country, but again, I suspect you are simply being obtuse on purpose.

  • playboy

    “Playboy, where exactly is your 2nd “post” you are referring to?
    It seems to me that you are using different pseudonyms. First you went by “Crossbow”, “militiaman”, “playboy” and now you wanted to be a Mexican by taking up a name of an alcoholic beverage company. Please stick to one name so that we can address you properly. Thanks.”

    Incorrect. I only use “Playboy” and “Jose Cuervo” on here, not any others. You can call me Jose Cuervo the Hispanic Playboy if you’d like.

    What is your other handle? Or handles? “daemonesslisa?” Of course. “Crossbow” I don’t know. “Militiaman” is a co-worker and will be back tomorrow.

    Would you like me to post my email address so you can contact me direct? I’m willing to do that.

    “Mexican by taking up a name of an alcoholic beverage company.”

    Sorry, I’m not Mexican. I’m Hispanic. My grandparents country of origin is unimportant.

    Incidentally, is taking the name of an alcoholic beverage any worse than calling one’s self “88`s Jeno-Side?” I mean, genocide is the mass killing of people isn’t it? Or more correctly, “the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. ”

    Who is it you wish to kill? What culture? What race? Are you one of these Harris and Klebold types? Klebold was Jewish too you know.

    “Like the Jews who came up with the term “White Supremacists” during the KKK hey-days. The Natavists is now the new term that many of us use to describe the hate-mongers of today.”

    You have a handle like genocide and you have the gall to write of “the hate-mongers of today?”

    Your posts are very entertaining.

    ” If you look at the current membership of “You Don’t Speak For Me”, which is operated by Al Rodriquez. There you will find the numbers for their current members stats and the number of hits that webiste has which tells me they’re virtually a small band of self-loathing Hispanics with no pride.”

    Because they believe a country’s laws should be respected they are self loathing Hispanics with no pride? Do they believe in Genocide? And does it please you that they are a small number?

    Do you understand that because many Hispanics in this country do not wish to become active in ANYTHING, yet hold anti-immigrant opinions, they will not appear in Senor Rodriquez’s stats?

  • playboy

    “Um, no. I started to type up the history for you, but then remembered that it’s not my job to educate people who probably don’t want to be educated in the first place. ”

    Saying that information was started for the purpose of teaching, then claiming the decision not to do so is based on the other’s lack of desire to be educated, is an admission of immaturity, childishness and a lack of intelligence, because in the last analysis the person claiming to be the instructor is revealing his/her laziness or lack of knowledge. But, most importantly, the ploy reveals a decided lack of intelligence.

    And regarding the statement that, ” it’s not my job to educate people who probably don’t want to be educated in the first place. ”

    What is your job? Do you have a “job” on here? Do you do nothing unless it is your “job?”

    “Here’s a tip: read up on Carthage, Rome, Spain, and Hannibal. Have fun, now!”

    I’m very familiar with all those countries mentioned, plus Hannibal, and I must point out none have anything to do with the Spanish/Amerindian population in the Americas, and you must understand that Hannibal was a Carthagenian. He was not a city like Rome or a country like Spain or Carthage.

    I can give anyone here my email address if they would like to exchange information directly.

    Gracias por tu tiempo.

  • 88`s Jeno-Side

    Today:
    “please read my post again”.–Playboy

    Umm.
    Playboy, where exactly is your 2nd “post” you are referring to?
    It seems to me that you are using different pseudonyms. First you went by “Crossbow”, “militiaman”, “playboy” and now you wanted to be a Mexican by taking up a name of an alcoholic beverage company. Please stick to one name so that we can address you properly. Thanks.

    Speaking of Natavists is a term used by many Freedom Loving Americans such as myself and those posting on here, who are trying to talk some sense into you.
    The term Natavist is a degratory term describing the current Anti-Illegal AND LEGAL Immigration groups who oppose our Hispanic comrades battling your injustices and bigotry aimed at criminalizing them and their peoples. Even if they are in the country legally. The term Natavist is synonmous with the term “Racist”

    Natavists is the new political term that befits the criteria of a modern-day Neo-Nazis, Racists, Bigots, and Vigilantes all lumped into the same boat.

    I agree that the word “Racists” is getting old school that many of those minorities and old timers still use today.

    Like the Jews who came up with the term “White Supremacists” during the KKK hey-days. The Natavists is now the new term that many of us use to describe the hate-mongers of today.

    When I met the Anti-Hispanic Hispanic crew, I was merely referring to the small crowd who support the Natavists Movement. If you look at the current membership of “You Don’t Speak For Me”, which is operated by Al Rodriquez. There you will find the numbers for their current members stats and the number of hits that webiste has which tells me they’re virtually a small band of self-loathing Hispanics with no pride.

    The May Day marches in the past was enormous which was said to be in the Millions, compared to that small gaggle of Anti-Hispanic Hispanics which is no more than 1,000 members. Many continue to walk away from them. Because they realized they’re traitorous to their Heritage as a Hispanic.

  • http://www.clottedcognition.blogspot.com Liesl

    JC: “A Cuban is not a true Latino. We don’t appreciate Cubans who try to weasel into our crowd with a desire to be one of us. The term “Latins” today refers to the indigenous people of the Americas who have varying degrees of Amerindian and Spanish blood. Cubans are not a part of that group, being mostly Spanish, or a Spanish and black mix, or mostly black.”

    Um, no. I started to type up the history for you, but then remembered that it’s not my job to educate people who probably don’t want to be educated in the first place. Here’s a tip: read up on Carthage, Rome, Spain, and Hannibal. Have fun, now!

  • playboy

    “Wow, where do I begin?”

    It’s important not to begin rebuttal until a thorough understanding of what a person wrote or said is obtained.

    ‘A Cuban is not a true Latino because they’re “mostly black”?’

    Please read my post again. There seems to be a problem with comprehension, and afterwards look up the meaning of, “indigenous people of the Americas.”

    “Then I suppose Colombians, Ecuadorians, Puerto Ricans and Panamanians aren’t true Latinos either.”

    Supposing the above are not an Amerindian mix is incorrect, except for Peurto Ricans who are a mix of black/Spanish, or black/white, with varyng degrees of each race within their genes. The rest are Spanish/Amerindian. Please read my post again and try to understand this time.

    “How about giving me a non-neocon link, son?”

    What for? And what is the interpretation of a “neo-con? Is that a Jew in the Bush administration? Here is what some of my people think of ONE aspect of that. http://www.aztlan.net/koshernostra.htm

    “And I suggest that you do it fast before the more intelligent readers on here shoot you down.”

    Referring to “more intelligent readers” indicates that a writer doesn’t consider himself in that group.

    Here’s a link from a neo-con site that will help in understanding for those who get easily confused about what has been written.
    http://estudosjudaicos.blogspo.....itism.html

    Excerpt only:http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/4109_12.htm

    “One of the most important findings of ADL’s 2002 Survey of Anti-Semitism in America concerns Hispanic Americans, one of the most significant and fastest growing segments of the American population, in which the poll found an extraordinary gap between those born in the United States and those born abroad. The survey revealed that while 44% of foreign-born Hispanics hold hardcore anti-Semitic beliefs, 20% of Hispanic Americans born in the U.S. fall into the same category.

    “The anti-Semitic propensities of foreign-born Hispanics were significantly above the national average. Meanwhile, the number of African-Americans with strong anti-Semitic beliefs continued to hold steady at 35%.”

  • daemonesslisa

    Wow, where do I begin?

    Can’t mention racism? If there’s a site to talk about racism, this would be it. Any attempts on here to deflect from discussions on racism are what shut down the arguments. I think the moderators would agree (if they’d speak up every once in a while!)

    A Cuban is not a true Latino because they’re “mostly black”? Then I suppose Colombians, Ecuadorians, Puerto Ricans and Panamanians aren’t true Latinos either. I don’t know what bubble you’ve lived in, but Latinos come in ALL colors, man (including a shade of yellow…that would be me!).

    98% of Cubans are against illegal immigration? That’s quite the number for someone who doesn’t like risking their credibility by overstating. How about giving me a non-neocon link, son? And I suggest that you do it fast before the more intelligent readers on here shoot you down.

    I’m Jewish? Because my opinion differs from yours? I have to say, that insinuation goes a long way toward proving true my “sockpuppet” theory!

  • Jose Cuervo

    [“Racism is such an overused term”]

    daemonesslisa : “Much like the whole “draining of public services” and similar memes, it’s another pathetic attempt to shut down the argument. You guys are pathetic!”

    JC: It is those who resort to those terms who try to shut down the argument by crying racism and hate. Please….re-read the post and TRY to understand what is written.

    Here it is again: “And, please, no more calls of racism, eh? I mean it is over- used so often it has no meaning whatsoever, and is used only by those who haven’t the intelligence for substantive rebuttal.And calling anyone haters is used exactly for the same purpose.”

    Is there any way to make it easier to understand?

    “(I’m tempted to say that “Jose Cuervo” there is really just some neo-nazi sockpuppet, but there are a few of us Latinos who are, shall I say, shameful in attitude when it comes to this subject).”

    A Cuban is not a true Latino. We don’t appreciate Cubans who try to weasel into our crowd with a desire to be one of us. The term “Latins” today refers to the indigenous people of the Americas who have varying degrees of Amerindian and Spanish blood. Cubans are not a part of that group, being mostly Spanish, or a Spanish and black mix, or mostly black. Also, how strange it is for a Cuban to be an open borders advocate, since since 98% of all Cubans are conservative Republicans who detest illegal immigration.

    “daenmonesslisa?” Such a strange handle for a Cuban. Must be Jewish-Cuban, otherwise why the fixation on neo-nazis?”

    Ideologies are for those who need a crutch to support themselves, and all ideologies fail.

  • daemonesslisa

    Ladies and Gentlemen, the latest tactic of the racist right in america:

    “Racism is such an overused term”

    Much like the whole “draining of public services” and similar memes, it’s another pathetic attempt to shut down the argument. You guys are pathetic!

    A little about me…I’m a Cuban-American. My father came here “legally” or whatever. Do I care that some people don’t go through ‘the process’? NEVER! And why the hell should I?

    Unlike a whole lot of these americans, I’m sympathetic to the conditions in Mexico; in other words, I understand why they flee those conditions and come here.

    I am not going to shut someone out because they didn’t fill out a few papers. They’re still contributing to society and they have strong family values. I’m not bothered by it at all.

    Besides, you have no problem with animals migrating, so what’s your problem with humans migrating? It’s a damn small world, and people will move around; eventually, into your neighborhood. At least have the imagination to deal with it!

    (I’m tempted to say that “Jose Cuervo” there is really just some neo-nazi sockpuppet, but there are a few of us Latinos who are, shall I say, shameful in attitude when it comes to this subject).

  • Jose Cuervo

    “In order to set the record straight, for those who have absoultely no common sense in the current use of the term “Natavist” is often times misunderstood today.”

    A common -use meaning for Natavist does not exist, nor does a colloquial meaning for the same word, which would amount to very nearly the same thing. To learn the meaning of the word one should go to the dictionary instead of creating a false definition that one might believe fits with his political views. Common sense has nothing to do with word meaning.

    And the agenda of hate being referred to considers any American, Hispanic or Anglo, that does not conform to the secularist-progressive views which are old-fashioned, hackneyed and out of date, belonging to an ancient generation of decrepits who are out of touch with reality. These same views have died a hundred deaths throughout the history of the world and lie broken and dead on the scap heap of ideologies. Secular progressivism will be there in the near future.

    “Particularily the anti-Hispanic Hispanic crowd which is very small by the way. ”

    There is no anti-Hispanic crowd. The anti-illegal Hispanic crowd amounts to about 70% of the Hispanic American population, probably more, but it is best not to risk overstating for the sake of credibility.

    And nobody knows better than they what situation exists within the Hispanic community today, including the amount of anti-semitism rife in countries south of the border. Should I give examples and links in order for those who are confused to finally understand? Or would it be best to contact the Brown Berets directly? Or how about the Mexican Mafia? How about La Raza if a more mainline organization is preferred? Voz de Aztlan can help as well, regarding population likes and dislikes, even though they all are out of the mainstream, except for La Raza.

    And, please, no more calls of racism, eh? I mean it is over- used so often it has no meaning whatsoever, and is used only by those who haven’t the intelligence for substantive rebuttal.

    And calling anyone haters is used exactly for the same purpose.

  • 88`s Jeno-side

    In order to set the record straight, for those who have absoultely no common sense in the current use of the term “Natavist” is often times misunderstood today.

    Natavists is an upgraded version of Neo-Nazism in the 21st century, that it has morphed into a “patriotic” sense of the term, to reach the mainstream masses through of American values. Instead they choose to trade in a swastika arm band for an eagle patch, a nazi flag for the American flag. Masking the very name of a patriot into something far more sinister as in racsim, bigotry, domestic terrorism et al. Just to name a few.

    But what’s very disturbing to many is the self-hating traitorous Hispanics who rather take the side of a group of one “race”, deeply rooted in xenophobic racial division between Freedom loving American Citizens of every race and ethnicity.

    Illegal Immigration is a problem in this Nation but so too, is the Natavist movement bent on a agenda of hate. Which has cause division and a divide amongst Americans like myself. Those without a lick of commone sense will never possessed the understanding of this. Particularily the anti-Hispanic Hispanic crowd which is very small by the way. And I pity their lack of pride and respect for their fellow LEGAL immigrants currently in the country legally with legit proper documentation and work visas. Just like their parents and grandparents who did the exact same thing.

    Although I’m no Hispanic, but the Natavists continue to demonize and criminalize the very name of being Hispanic American. And I strongly detest everything they stand for as a Natavist.

    Freedom shall prevail over this hate.
    For I am an American.

  • http://www.clottedcognition.blogspot.com Liesl

    “Let the illegals come in here as my grandparents did: By legal immigration. What part of that doesn’t the oi vey crowd understand?”

    What’s not to understand? You’re a racist jerk who hides behind an anonymous “identity.” Seems pretty easy to understand to me.

  • Jose Cuervo

    To Madjailer: Don’t apologize for saying you’re a nativist, Madjailer. Every country in the world, but Western Nations are Natavists, and they make no apology for it.

    The only ones here who use it as a pejorative term are those who are naive and out of touch, and are too dim-witted to know the score.

    I’m of Latino extraction myself, and I would like to tell the Jews in the US that I wish they would stop comparing the emigration of Hispanics to themselves, thinking that by fractionalizing the US they’re going to prevent another Holocaust, because they’re disliked south of the border more than they are by any Anglo I know. They could just be marching to the ovens in 50 years to a Mariachi beat instead of the polka.

    Let the illegals come in here as my grandparents did: By legal immigration. What part of that doesn’t the oi vey crowd understand?

  • Madjailer

    Living in a border city (El Paso, Tx.) I have seen groups of Illegal Aliens running across our border highway. The Border Patrol has units stationed every mile all along the border here but you still see these people run across. I have spoken to Bordor Patrol agents who live near to me and they have told me about how some women have been gang raped. Maybe Mr. Mosier doesn’t want his agency to look bad. Although I have never been a member of any type of border allience or Minutemen I do believe that all mexicans who cross our border illegally have violated our laws and should be prosecuted. There is a lawful way for these people to cross and they should use it. People who would call me a Nativist or a neocon or whatever most likely don’t have first hand knowledge of the burden illegal aliens place on the citizens of this city. The crimes that most of them commit and the resource they utilize such as free medical service at our county hospital that I have to pay for with my taxes.I had a serious accident 5 years ago where my wife was injured and taken to our county hospital, I am still paying that bill. You may not see how your “native born” child is not allowed to attend pre-school because they speak english and the room is needed for non english speaking kids “native” or not. You may not see the vast number of kids brought over from Mexico to attend our public schools, and I have to pay for with my taxes that they don’t pay. I am an hispanic (who does not speak spanish) who married a woman whose parents entered this country legally and we both don’t want Illegal aliens coming into our country. You don’t see how these people come overhere illegally and will still look down on me because I don’t speak spanish. If having these feelings makes me a “Nativist” or a neocon or whatever then so be it that’s what I am. I always thought that putting this country first was just called “PATRIOTISM,” which has now apparently become a dirty word.

  • 88`s Jeno-side

    The blight presence of old Elton Hall was also one reason why that little anti-Hispanic-Hispanic lady(formerly of You Don’t Speak For Me) Anna Gaines and others decided to form another so-called non-nazi patriotic group called American Citizens United. But of course, they’re all in the same “nazi” boat, no matter how hard they try to deny the fact that they’re not associated with neo-nazism. Rusty “the KIA dealer” Childress whose ties to the White Power in the valley is obivious to anyone living in the valley like myself. He is the one who supposedly helped the ACU get organized. Hence, they all work under the same banner of hate.

    How many ridiculous little bands of dastardly natavists have to keep forming these little “patriotic” groups using many different names???

    Its pathetic!! But at the same time, its also funny! Lol.

    Without any respect to their recall petition aimed at our respected mayor Phil Gordon which was started up by members of ACU isn’t working!
    And thus, the clock is ticking on them, they’re not gonna achieve their goal of ousting our mayor other than to make themselves look like a bunch of retards that they really are.

    May FREEDOM prevail!!

  • http://exaggerator.blogdrive.com/ IludiumPhosdex

    How do we know some of these claims about Mexicans trying to cross the border en masse and “rape trees” weren’t really fabricated under the influence of Al Cohol?

    (BTW, Alamogordo is in New Mexico, not Texas.)