The definition of homosexuality as it means today is totaly different from what was meant in the days of paul…

Did you know that because women were considered inferior back then that the most effective way to humiliate men of that era was to literaly treat them as women ?

In effect…As inferior.

Did you know that, literaly speaking, it is anatomicaly impossible to lay with a man as you would a woman ?

Think about it…Really think about it.

Something else to think about is that if you refer to the jewish torah which is where the christian bible originated from then you would find that soddom and gomorrah wasnt destroyed because of homosexuality…But because of the folks there becomming hard of heart, greedy and selfish…Theres even a book in the new testement that addresses that fact although I dont remember which one.

Chris had the right of it and you know it…Even to the point that trying to use the example of gang rape just shows your ignorance.

You see…Theres a lot of things that happens in nature AND in human society BUT not all those things are good nor should they be legal…Such as gang rape.

Homosexuality however is an innate trait just as heterosexuality and bisexuality is so saying that it should be illegal and/or condemned is as logical as saying that blue eyes or brown hair should be considered wrong.

Yes…I admit that it took a while for the scientific community to come to the logical conclusion that theres nothing wrong with homosexuality but then it also took a while for them to be able to say that the earth wasnt the center of the universe…All because the church had way too much influence and not enough common sense…Kinda like the bible thumpers of today.

Heres an example you might find of intrest…In nature, no animal attends church…And its a natural thing for them not to…So, why should humans be any less natural than the animals ?

Heres another…In nature, no animal wears clothing…Why should us humans do so ?

Same kind of logic your using and just as foolish in its application.

I don’t have time to list all of your inconsistancies so I will enlighten you on a couple.

- You said Christianity didn’t view homosexuality as a sin until the late 1700′s. I have already noted that Paul the Apostle called it perversion in Romans, chapter one. If you want to site historical facts, then you should know that the New Testiment is BY FAR the most historically reliable of all the ancient writings.

- You mentioned several medical, psycological and other associations that all say homosexuality is fine, but you failed to mention that at least one of them (I believe it is the APA) didn’t say that until 1973.

- You said it happens in nature. Well, Chris gang rape happens in nature too. If you’ve ever owned a female dog in heat you know what I mean.

As I said, I haven’t the time or desire to refute all of your self righteous and self serving “arguments”.

“Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.” Prov. 23:9

Well Makrl, let me get this straight. You state that Christianity views homosexuality as a sin and always has. If I were to tell you that that notion didn’t exist until the late 1700′s would you listen to historical fact or continue on your shallow and narrow path of American thinking; which is of course rejecting evidence for subjective opinion, belief, and rhetoric?

If you are one of those people who believes science is subjective and obligatory to the will of religion then further reading of this is useless for comprehension of this material will not only fall on deaf ears. Insofar as to say if you do not believe the works of science cannot exceed the wisdom of cattle sacrificing primitives who believed every animal species was within walking distance of Paul, and Noah’s house, then I say such a mind is equal to the stupidity of a child who feels he can exceed the decibel levels of a train horn using his own lungs and vocal chords. Its cute and imaginative but only until the child goes mute from screaming to much, and deaf from the damaging sound levels of the train horn. Similar to how people might find it cute that Americans refuse to listen to anything other than their own personal beliefs and bias. It is seamlessly cute until those beliefs and bias seek protection in slaughtering the innocent as is what is happening in this country when people either kill gay people or using their religion instill so much shame, fear and guilt in gay people that they kill themselves.

If you are one of those rare people in America who actually thinks the works of science are more valid and intellectually honest than primitive mythologies, then let me enlighten you on what the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Sociological Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the National Association of Pediatrics, and the American Anthropological Association has to say on this issue. “Homosexuality is a normal, natural, positive variant of sexual orientation. Homosexuality is not a choice, and it cannot be change. Homosexuality like heterosexuality, and bisexuality is a fixed facet of a persons being, not an verb or a noun but a part of that person; just like race, ethnicity, and gender.”

There… it is said and done. It’s normal and check me if I am wrong but if it happens in nature, I.E. in animals, including humans (because we are animals), and in the wild, its “natural.” Logic goes even farther with this one. If it causes no harm and shows positive outcomes is it unethical? No! It’s perfectly ethical. Is it logical to tell people who are equal in their love for one another that their love is wrong and to deny them the same legal rights to protecting their families as your own? Is it logical to tell such families that they cannot join in on the same institution that symbolizes the love and bond of a family, but they must call their family something other, something less? No! It is not logical nor is it ethical. It is also unethical to use a religion as a backdrop for thinking if someone or something is different, because of ignorance and simple arrogance, it should be feared, mistreated, dehumanized, denied full equal rights and the names to those rights, denied protection from mistreatment, and slandered with antiquated codes from a book that uses characters that are nothing more than a simple and two dimensional copies of Pagan gods like Mithra and Dionysus, Amun-Ra, Horus, etc.

So now that we have that cleared up, let me enlighten you Makrl and those like you who think of “loving the sinner” while hating the sinner at the same time, because the sin in question is actually a part of that person as stated above. It is their being, not their actions. Just like living happy as a black person is part of someones being. Did you know that Christians used to think being black was a sin a choice, a wager of sin upon a “white mans” actions of his former life? Mormons used to believe you could pray it away like the ilk of Exodus International and FOTF believe one can pray away the gay. Fascinating tidbit of history is it not?

Now in this conclusion, I feel this this little thesis has gone on long enough while I made an absolute mockery of your narrow way of thinking, I feel it is necessary to point out the obvious. Always good to save the best for last as they say. Now I do sincerely hope you took your two hundred and fifty milligrams of nitroglycerin for I don’t want you having a heart attack on us. Are you ready for the most shocking news of the day? There is actually a surprisingly high number of Christians, Muslims, and Jews who do not think homosexuality is a sin, believe that denying gay people protection from mob rule, discrimination and denying them full equal marriage rights including the name is “evil” and wrong. Some go even farther by stating that using a religion to characterize and condemn gay people is not only anti-American as well as it destroys the Establishment Clause of the bill of rights, but is also anti theocratic and hurts religions immensely. Outside of the Davidic Dogmas did you know that many religions celebrate all love between people and sanctify that love. Just ask Revered Boony. He can tell you all about the many different religions out there that marry gay families and have done so for thousands and thousands of year, long predating the Davidic Dogmas. My own ancestors would call me a “two spirit” and not only marry but but would worship the very ground I walk on. You know why? Because to them, my love, in their ways of life, is pure love. I am not bound to a person by an instinctual inclination to reproduce, but bound to a person out of pure love and affection, two souls that intertwine as one. This is what the Cherokee believe, as well as many other Native Americans who have resisted the indoctrination of the European evangelist crusaders. So think of it in this aspect. Because I am not bound to another for the simple aspect of reproduction, but out of the intrinsic capacity of pure love and only love, if such a pure love is wrong. is sinful and should be shunned, what does that say about your love? If you have to don feelings of reproduction to love someone, less of love, by your way of thinking, wouldn’t your love be the most sinful and depraved kind of love in existence. Just a thought…. Hope it gets a few of those dormant neurons firing once again.

Sincerely
Chris

The bible thumpers are gonna continue to lie and misrepresent the truth even as those of us who choose to think for ourselves and stand for equality ever strive to fight their lies and deception with logic and common sense.

Its generaly understood by most if not all intelligent folks that unless the author of any particular book is directly quoting someone…And states such that whatever words are spoken in said book are the author’s and no one else’s.

Whatever jesus said specificly is in red…All else was never spoken by him.

What will those bible thumping idiots think of next ?

Sheeeeeeeeeeesh.

But you sited Jesus, let’s see what he has to say:
“I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.”
“I did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfil it.”
“Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.”
“I and the Father are one.”
“He who has seen me has seem the Father.”
“Before the Father was, I am.”
“Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden and I shall give you rest. take my yoke upon you and learn of. For I am meek and lowly of heart, and you shall find rest for your soul.”
“Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.”

Paul was a Pharasee (a strict Jewish sect) who was converted to Christianity on the road to Demascus (on his way to persecute Christians). It was Matthew who was the tax collector. Remember him? His gospel is the first book in the New testiment.

And, yes, even a tax collector from the Roman IRS can be forgiven if they repent. (If Jesus can forgive me and all my many sins, he can forgive anyone).

Jesus was silent on a lot of sins, such as child molestation, beastiality, rape, etc.

Every Christian I have ever met believes the Bible (Old and New Testements) to be God’s Word.

If you are going to throwout Romans because they were written through Paul, you have to also throw out 1 & 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, and possibly Hebrews. Not to mention a large portion of Acts which contains the ministry of Paul as he travelled with Luke (remember him? His gospel is the 3rd book of the NT. He also wrote Acts.) and others.

As for Paul being a scumbag, hater: “If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.” 1 Corinithians 13:3,4,6,8,13 written through Paul.

But, don’t take my word for any of this. Please read it for yourself.

That would be Saint Paul who said that.

He’s a real scumbag, a hater. What do you expect from a tax man? He worked for the IRS of the Roman Empire. And he never even met Jesus in person.

If you follow Romans, you’re not a Christian.

You’re a Paulist. There IS a difference.

I as a Christian love homosexuals. I love my sister who is a lesbian. I love her enough to tell her the truth about how I feel and to admonish her to turn to the loving arms of Jesus to receive forgiveness and freedom from her bondage to sin. Just as I received the same for my sin.

Those who chose to label Christians as hate-mongers and bigots betray themselves as hypocrates.

However–

“I also see that it was you who rewrote my statement in regards to prop. 8.”

Well if you go back and re-read our comments IT WAS I, who first brought up the prop. 8 and IT WAS YOU, who re-wrote MY comments in regards to prop. 8 but then you went to re-quote my entire comment that is irrelevant to prop. 8.

“I quoted all that you had said that time out of habit.”

Weird. I don’t know why someone would developed a “habit” out of re-quoting another’s entire comments without addressing it, is kinda odd. Note that I mentioned a brief history on Mormon atrocities that has nothing to do with prop. 8 which for some reason you re-quoted it. But because of your “habits”, its probably best if your “response are a bit shorter.”

I also see that it was you who rewrote my statement in regards to prop 8.

I quoted all that you had said that time just out of habit.
I think youll find my more recent responses a bit shorter.

Was meant to read “Prop 8 was meant to do exactly what IT did.”

Did you purposely misread what I wrote ?
I would have expected you to use common sense in reading what I originaly posted and looking at the overall context of what I wrote.

What on Earth did you do? But then again whatever it is that you did surely wasn’t meant to follow you. The Mormons have been opposed to homosevuality practices since its creation. In fact, Mormons are Christians and Christians have denounced homosexuality for centuries.
If memory serves me correctly, somewhere in your previous comments awhile back in another forum, you stated that you are not Christian.

“It made it illegal once again for same sex couples to get married.”

It has always been illegal in California.

“Regrettable the religious right won that battle but would still lose the war.”

If you are in favor of prop 8, then why is it “regrettable”? Are you implying that you are ashamed of your own actions.?

Also what is your point when you re-quoted my last paragraph of my previous comment if you are not going to address it? If you don’t address it, then there is no point in re-quoting my comment. Its irrelevant.

on February 24th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

Although the Mormon church may have been the primary reason behind the killing of Prop. 8 in California and other states, it is also no secret that the church has a long history of excommunicating gays , once they’ve decided to “come out of the closet.”. It is also no secret that some Mormon members are still somewhat semi-racist towards certain minority groups(take Rep. Russell Pearce R-Mesa as one good example of this).

One infamous atrocity committed by Mormons was the slaughter of one particular tribe in Utah back in the 1800’s, with most of the victims being young men between 14 to 55. And they’ve also engaged in the mass of murders of non-Mormon settlers on their way to Cali, possibly as payback for their eviction from the state of Minnosota where the Prophet Joseph Smith was supposedly murdered by angry mobs.

Ryan….Prop 8 was meant to do exactly what it did…It made it illegal once again for same sex couples to get married. Regrettably the religious right won that battle but hopefully will still lose the war.

on February 26th, 2009 at 11:58 am

I am a life-long member of the Mormon Church. I believe the church should seek out every single one of those responsible for running this ad and excommunicate them. This is not “free speech” but HATE speech. It embarrasses me, and it should embarrass every LDS person in America.

Well said marisa and I concur.

The myth of special rights among other myths that james dobson supposedly derived from the book “After The Ball” are all simply that…..Myths.

If you ask me, “special rights” is just one of those rather lame platitudes that the weird and unwholesome, in their arrogance of racist and white-supremacist hubris, likes to claim solely to assert their arrogance.

Up there on the same level as apartheid South Africa’s white Afrikaner community in particular, no?

For those of you intrested in reading this book for yourselves, you can find it online at barnes and noble in the used book section.
The authors names are Hunter Madsen and Marshall Kirk.

Its worth the reading and Im not even into chapter 2 yet.

Oh and by the way, how’s it so “special” to have equal rights as everybody else? I mean really! Ever heard of human rights, you neo-Nazis!?

One infamous atrocity committed by Mormons was the slaughter of one particular tribe in Utah back in the 1800′s, with most of the victims being young men between 14 to 55. And they’ve also engaged in the mass of murders of non-Mormon settlers on their way to Cali, possibly as payback for their eviction from the state of Minnosota where the Prophet Joseph Smith was supposedly murdered by angry mobs.