Hatewatch Tweets
Hatewatch is managed by the staff of the Intelligence Report, an investigative magazine published by the Alabama-based civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center.
Alabama Pol Removes Confederate Flags, and a Firestorm Ensues
They just keep coming, says Bishop Arthur Dowdell. The racial epithets. The vile aspersions. The death threats. They arrive via E-mail, the U.S. post and phone calls in the middle of the night. They’re shouted at him by passersby.
“A lot of them call me the N-word. Some of them call my mother a bitch. One said they was going to urinate on my wife and children,” Dowdell told Hatewatch. “Another said I better not show up to the next City Council meeting, or I’d be a dead man.”
The trouble started on the afternoon of Thursday, April 23, when Bishop Dowdell, an elected member of the Auburn, Ala., City Council and its only black member, was picking up his daughter from Auburn Junior High School, which is located next to Pine Hill Cemetery.
According to Dowdell, he’d recently received several complaints from African-American constituents regarding Confederate battle flags being placed in the cemetery. Dowdell said he decided to see for himself and, sure enough, there were about 50 small Confederate battle flags waving in the breeze.
Dowdell wasn’t having that. “It’s offensive to me,” he later told The Opelika-Auburn News. “To me, it [the Confederate battle flag] represents the Ku Klux Klan and racism.”
He snatched up four of the flags and tossed them into his trunk.
Happening to witness his actions were two members of the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC), who’d placed the flags earlier in the week, as they’ve done since the 1950s, in preparation for a celebration of Confederate Memorial Day, which is observed as a state holiday in Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. This year it fell on April 27.
According to UDC member Mary Norman, who contacted the local media afterward, Dowdell snapped one of the flags in half. Dowdell denies doing that on purpose. “It might have snapped itself,” he told the Opelika-Auburn News. “If it did, so what? If I had my way, I would have broke them all up and stomped on them and burned them. That flag represents another country, another nation.”
Stomping on the Confederate battle flag? Them’s fighting words, Councilman.
The newspaper articles about the incident started to circulate on neo-Confederate and white supremacist online forums, along with Dowdell’s photo, E-mail address, home and office addresses and phone number.
Then the Southern Legal Resource Center, a neo-Confederate law center co-founded by white supremacist attorney Kirk Lyons, issued a public call for the city of Auburn to force Dowell to resign. SLRC Executive Director Roger McCredie wrote to Auburn Mayor Bill Ham, Jr., that “justice and ordinary decency would be served” by the City’s demanding Dowdell’s resignation.
Not to be outdone, the Southern heritage group Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) launched a letter-writing campaign to Alabama Gov. Bob Riley and various state and local prosecutors, demanding Dowdell’s arrest on hate crime charges.
“Councilman Dowdell violates every tenet of decent human behavior. He showed a dangerous propensity for taking the law into his own hands,” read the form letter drafted by SCV Alabama Division Commander Robert Reames. “We believe this crime was motivated by hate, and want to see justice done.”
Last week, New Jersey-based neo-Nazi radio host and notorious blowhard Hal Turner faxed a letter to the Auburn Police Department announcing that he’s “considering” bringing the Ku Klux Klan, neo-Nazis, and skinheads to Auburn to protest Dowdell at the next scheduled meeting of the Auburn City Council, which is coming up fast: Tuesday, May 5.
“I don’t care who they send, I’ll be there,” Dowdell told Hatewatch. “The FBI is involved, so I hope and pray my safety will be ensured. I’ll tell you what, though. I’ve never seen anything of this magnitude. I’ve been called every name under the sun except one — a child of God.”
on May 4th, 2009 at 9:49 am
God, Southerners are as bad as celebrating and glorifying a losing side as Mexicans are with the southwest U.S…Get over it, sons of Dixie: YOU LOST.
on May 4th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Dowdell-
“If it did, so what? If I had it my way, I would have broken them all up, stomp on them and burned them.”
I give this man a salute. I would have done the same thing! I actually burned a neo-Nazi swastika flag once, but unfortunately, I didn’t get it on video for all to witness. Next time when I find another neo-Nazi or Confederate flag, I will make sure to get it on video and post it on Youtube. I bring comrades over, we will go in the middle of the desert, in the middle of nowhere. Dressed in military raiments, my bullet proof vest and my black ski mask, along with my comrades at sundown where its unusually brown purple-pinkish in the desert sky. To burn this traitorious and seditious flag and salute to Freedom! We will make a statement to the neo-Nazis. And I think that would be fun!
on May 4th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Thank you for standing up for your country against people who would destroy it.
But with all due respect, Bishop, lose the suit. You look like you just got done putting up some drywall.
on May 4th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
I come from Texas, and you’ll more often see the Texas flag there but once in a while see the confederate battle flag. Notice; this is not the confederate flag that was supposed to represent that illegitimate nation, that one was a red cross on a white background. This thing is the confederate BATTLE flag! That means these confederate types still consider themselves to be at war with the US. I say let them! Anybody who displays that flag should be considered an enemy of the US. We’ll let them keep GITMO open for them.
Also, for those who display the “stars and bars” as apologists, saying, “It’s heritage, not hate.” Sorry, bros, but the klan has spoiled your “heritage” to the point that no one can see the flag without thinking about white supremacy. It’s ruined, it’s like damaged goods, you have to trash it and get over it. If you have to blame anyone for your loss, blame the klan.
’nuff sed.
on May 4th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
Also, following up on my first comment on here, in case if it doesn’t get posted. I must state that I admire Dowdell’s courage. The man has backbone, something we see lacking in white politicians nowadays. What this man is doing for AMERICA is patriotic and brave. We need more nonwhites and white women as politicians! With Dowdell holding on the polticial seat in Alabama, I wish we had the same thing done in AZ. That way it will lessen the neo-Cons influence and balance the powers that guarantees our U.S. Constitution and Rights as nonwhite American.
Hail Freedom!
on May 5th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Geno: You may be seeing the wrong part of AZ. I have seen quite a few things I’m proud of in some of the deeper southern counties.
I am surprised that Alabama has not made some peace with the Confederate flag issue however. I also have heard the “heritage not hate” response & that really doesn’t make too much sense to me. I wonder if someone could explain what “heritage” they are talking about. And exactly what pride in those actions are worth ennobling…..????
on May 5th, 2009 at 9:38 am
“Geno, you may be seeing the wrong part of AZ,”
Yes, that part I’m referring to is called Maricopa County. Which btw, is a hotbed/breeding ground for natavism/white supremacy. And not to forget, that its also home to the infamous (Sheriff) joe arpaio. When was the last time that Maricopa County elected a Black official? I don’t recall one being elected to any higher positions other than a one or 2 holding district seats. There are also a couple Hispanics representing certain districts but its not enough to warrant any balance of political power. Sadly these nonwhite political figures are very cowardly and inactive. It takes political figures from other states to denounce arpaio. Which is why I said that we need tough cookies like Bishop Dowdell. He’s a role model that AZ’s nonwhite politicians should follow!
on May 5th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
I applaud Bishop Dowdell’s courage. They need to get more than the FBI down there, though. Alabama is living in the garbage bins of the past. If there were any doubt that the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism and hatred, this story shows what it’s always meant to those banner waving relics of slavery and treason.
on May 5th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
” wonder if someone could explain what “heritage” they are talking about. And exactly what pride in those actions are worth ennobling…..???? ”
As a native Alabamian, thanks for expressing my thoughts so well. Just never quite understood that.
on May 6th, 2009 at 11:18 am
I really not being fallacious or condescending.
I don’t really understand what there is to be proud of in making terrible military mistakes (Pickett’s Charge), upholding slavery, dividing a country into two or more sections thus ruining the economic advantage of speaking with a united voice in world affairs….I could go on if we were to take about Reconstruction in the light of either winning OR loosing….
I understand that folks have lived in the Southern United States for a very long time, but what does that have to do with a plethora of serious mistakes made by the attempted seditious divisiveness of the Confederacy? If someone would speak to just what the “Pride” is in that mistake I would be quite interested. Young men dying in battle? Young men are always going to die for the mistakes & money of the elite or dictatorial.
on May 6th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
In addition to being an indicator of ignorance, several of the comments above only serve to indicate just what little fascists so-called “liberals” are. My friend the blogger “Caedmon” comments on this mentality here:
http://novaemilitiae.squarespa.....-time.html
Long live the Rebel colors:
The principle for which we contend is bound to reassert it’s self, though it may be at another time and in another form . . . . The contest is not over, the strife is not ended. It has only entered upon a new and enlarged arena.” (Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America .)
Snaggle-Tooth Jones, the Colorado Confederatarian
on May 6th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Jefferson Davis DID say:
“The contest is not over, the strife is not ended. It has only entered upon a new and enlarged arena.” Jefferson Davis, address to the Mississippi legislature – 16 years after the wars end.
However prior to that, he said:
“Obstacles may retard, but they cannot long prevent the progress of a movement sanctified by its justice, and sustained by a virtuous people .”
What’s so damn virtuous about slavery? What’s so damn virtuous about sustaining an economy on the back of a human being enslaved to a “master”?
on May 6th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
I didn’t think you were being condescending at all. I was really sincere in my thanks. That’s exactly what I wanted to say and you just expressed it so well. I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings; I really didn’t intend to.
on May 6th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Carter asks, “What’s so damn virtuous about slavery? What’s so damn virtuous about sustaining an economy on the back of a human being enslaved to a “master”?”
Nothing. Davis & Co. were wrong about slavery, but right about secession. And Lincoln & Co. were much more obsessed about preserving the union than they were about the abolition of slavery.
Slavery in the South would have eventually died out in any event, most likely by the turn of the century or shortly thereafter (as it did in the last two holdout nations, Brazil and Nigeria). So, those flags we proudly fly and place on our departed Confederate ancestors’ graves express our pride in their virtue as freedom fighters who were fighting essentially for the chief principle of the American Revolution, namely, the right of a people to separate themselves from a government they deemed corrupt and tyrannical and to form a new one.
You desecrate my ancestor’s grave by stealing away the banner under which he proudly fought and suffered, you’re going to feel my wrath. Dowdell acted like an idiot, plain and simple.
on May 6th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Let’s not tar all Southeners here. I have lived in the south & done disaster relief in the south. Most everyone I met showed me the true spirit of Southern Hospitality. With that being said, there are quit a few inbreds who don’t realize the war is over. The Stars & Bars needs to be consigned to history. I applaud Bishop! He is truly a profile in courage!
on May 6th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
So…Mr. Dowdell is a child of God and the Confederate soldiers were children of the devil. Now who is being hateful and racist? I don’t see any difference in his attitude towards Confederate veterans and the attitude of Southerners towards the slaves, during their servitude. His contempt for his fellow man is just accepted these days, and their’s was accepted in their times. Neither shoud be acceptable.
He being a councilman, should make him compelled to follow the law and not desecrate anyone’s grave. No matter the feelings, he did desecrate graves by removing memorials to those dead. Not acceptable under any circumstance!
on May 7th, 2009 at 6:55 am
It does not matter if the South lost the Civil War. The bottom line is that a negro is getting what he wants because he and a few of his black bretheren got offended. He deserves all the vitriol he receives because white southerners have every right to display their flags, especially in cemeteries. The only answer for this is racial war and deportation.
on May 7th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Dear Alicia:
I myself may have been unclear. I certainly appreciate your sensitivity but there is no need to apologize.
I simply wondered why I could get no response…… You & I are on the same page on this subject.
I was simply surprised that no one could offer up any real substantial material for defining “Southern Pride”.
Secondary school humanities students could throw out Jefferson Davis quotes till they tied themselves in knots but the bottom line was the “Economic Bottom Line” when students of history look upon the Civil War. Unfortunately the underpinnings were not ethical or moral considerations but the economies of either side & what Succession would result in for each.
on May 7th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
We have to respect the War dead of the South and their heritage regardless of what the flag represents! For someone from the most racist State on the planet to be offended by the confederate flag is an Oximoron. Looks like the councilman is abusing power! We can no sooner stop the idiots of the South from flying Confederate flags as we can Blacks in Philly from displaying Black Pride. I live in New Jersey and there are more Confederate flags here then in the South. I have an Idea. Why dont Georigia Alabama Mississippi and Texas form their own Country and we can build a Giant elcetric fence around it! I doubt if they would be missed!
on May 7th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Mr Murdough! What is your level of Education? I can almost bet you never seen any class room after High School unless it was a hunting class. “Negro” WTF is a Negro? IS that the same as a Pecker head or Cracker? I don’t know that term,maybe because I never heard it used by anyone with an education above the 8th grade. Idiot! Take your Back woods a$$ to Stormfront .org You are not welcomed here! You probably belive that the Holocaust did not happen! Idiot,Moron,Backwood Product of Incest. Makes my stomach churn!
on May 7th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Joe, people like Bill can’t see that though and I doubt he’ll reply admitting this particular gaffe he uttered.
on May 7th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
While Allen makes a good point about the Confederate flag’s image being ruined by the Klan, calling someone an “enemy of the country to be placed in Gitmo” would probably, if said by someone else, be denounced as “jingoistic” by this same individual. These anti -hate haters on here never fail to crack me up.
on May 7th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Man, after all these years! I lived in rural northeast Alabama. 20 miles northeast of Scottsboro to be exact.
Everyone we knew, including our landlord were a bunch of backwards racists. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised the hate goes on..still..after 17 years gone.
on May 7th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
This article confirms that prejudice against the South, particularly Southern caucasians, is ongoing; it’s the only politically correct bigotry that remains.
on May 8th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
I live in Auburn, Alabama and I went to the May 5 council meeting and spoke in support of Mr. Dowdell. For over a week, I had been posting on the local Opelika-Auburn News http://www.oanow.com Web site that has evidently been commandeered by neo-confederates, Klan, and some locals who feel their precious Confederate flag is as holy as the Shroud of Turin. I and two others were the only people out of scores of people posting in support of Dowdell. Most posts were over-the-top and racist. Eventually I received a death threat from a man who claimed to be posting under his real name. If you go to that site, they are still have a field day talking about a revolution and trying to get Dowdell’s actions recognized as a hate crime.
I have complained several times to the OA News editor about the racist remarks and threats. The only thing they did was delete some of the more egregious comments with racial epithets. They have done nothing thus far on the death threat.
At the coucil meeting, I was the only white person to speak in support of Dowdell and I was scorned by the audience. Many people in the audience made rude remarks when Dowdell was speaking and made fun of his dialect. When I said I had taught in the inner-city of Los Angeles they laughed and sneered at me. If it is true that the Confederate flag is not a racist flag and only meant to honor their dead ancestors, then why so much hate and venom surrounding this?
on May 8th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Confederate flag supporters try to tell me until they are blue in the face how this isn’t about race. How the Civil War wasn’t about slavery. How it was about state’s rights.
Well, firstly, the state right that they were defending was the right to own slaves. No matter how they tried to rewrite history later with the myth of the Lost Cause.
Secondly, the flag has been used in conjunction with many white supremacist actions and Klan activities including lynchings.
Thirdly, it was used in the early days of the civil rights movement by citizens and politicians alike who were opposed to integration.
And finally, it is often used in the context of stating a belief that the South should have won and that they would like to be a sovereign nation, which therefore indicates to me that it is anti-American.
I have suggested to some that if the South wants to honor their Southern heritage, then why not find a new symbol, a new flag that would include all Southerners and not offend so many. At this suggestion, I have been “laughed off the stage” so to speak.
on May 8th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
SF..you have got to bekidding, right?
Quote: “This article confirms that prejudice against the South, particularly Southern caucasians, is ongoing;..”
I lived there! When I lived in Alabam I was a white, American born, Christian woman. There was no hate or prejudice directed toward me, and none toward other white people that I witnessed or heard about!
What I did see was the about 1000 African-Americans who lived in the county were mostly huddled up in the all black town of Fackler. I can’t remember ever seeing black people at the Walmart. or grocery stores in Scottsboro, or other towns. I do know that my white acquaintances believed “Oh, them N*****’s know where there place is, and it ain’t in town!”
So, SF don’t try and let on that whites in the South are victims of some kind. Unless you mean they’re victims of thier own irrational hate!
on May 8th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Quote:
“These anti -hate haters on here never fail to crack me up.”
Jaco YOU are the”joke”…not people who “hate hate.”
on May 8th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
I have lived my entire life in a southern state. Ugly actions were perpetrated by many people under the colors of various “flags.” I have English, African-American, and Cherokee-American heritage. There were ancestors who fought on both sides of the civil war. I had many who went on to fight under the stars and stripes during WW ll, they represented many racial groups but all were American citizens.
Many who are Native-American feel as strongly about the stars and stripes flag as do many towards the confederate flag. Some hatemongers use the swatiska flag to hurt Jewish-Americans.
Time has come for everyone to reach a peaceful solution, to look to the future, make amends for the harm done under all flags and spend our time and resources eradicating all forms of bias. We have children, in this nation, who go hungry, homeless, in need of decent education that is safe and so forth.
A flag is a piece of cloth that represents specific idealogies and are used to either unite or harm. What is most important is that we are human beings who need to find peaceful means to learn from history rather than repeating the same mistakes. This game of using flags to perpetrate harm is childish, one where innocent people can and often do get hurt. Where are the adults, the role models for our national unity in all of this?
on May 9th, 2009 at 12:49 am
I have been following this story for a few days, and saw this story on the internet.
I try to get my information from a variety of sources, so as not to be one sided. I encourage all to do the same.
I take note that none of the numerous laws of Alabama that were broken by Councilman Bishop A Dowdell (yes he certainly admitted doing it) are mentioned in this story. This is very curious.
As for the Confederacy losing, yes, history shows the CSA lost. Yet some desire to honor the sacrifice of thier ancestors. And your point is what?
Did not Mexico lose? You are fully aware that there is a US Soldier cemetery inside Mexico City containing the graves of our boys who fought against Mexico and are buried in Mexico. I don’t recall Fox or Caldorone hopping the fence and pulling up our flags.
Did not South Viet Nam lose? Just how many US Cities have passed official resolutions and proclamations giving official sanction and recognition since the fall of Saigon to the former SVN Flag? 150? 300?
Did not the Indians lose? Don’t the flags of Minnesota, Oklahoma, New Mexico and Florida pay homage to the vanquished?
Didn’t America lose the Viet Nam war? Are decendants of the soldiers who fought that “Police Action” not allowed to celebrate those men?
I find a lot of hatred on this site. The support for lawbreakers and grave desecrators is appalling. I voted for Obama for change. This is certainly NOT the change I was hoping for.
My ancestors hail from England. The US beat England twice. According to the warped logic expressed here, I am to desecrate thier graves and despise my ancestors.
on May 10th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Quote: “My ancestors hail from England. The US beat England twice. According to the warped logic expressed here, I am to desecrate thier graves and despise my ancestors.”
Some of my ancestors came from Germany. If I had any relatives who were Nasi’s, I feel shame and embarrassment and I DO despise them.
on May 10th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Bill writes,
Why dont Georigia Alabama Mississippi and Texas form their own Country. . . .
Uh, last time they tried, silly man, your Lord God and Savior Abe put the kabosh on it,
Does that clear it up any?
on May 10th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Janet, you are missing the point. It’s not that the Confederates lost that makes the flag a an improper symbol. It’s that the flag represents a system that was based on slavery and that the people were willing to fight to preserve. It’s that the flag is used by many white supremacist groups and that it is mostly revered by whites looking to a nostalgic past where they were in control. It’s about the use of the flag in the 1950s and 1960s are a symbol of rebellion against civil rights and integration. It’s that, when the flag is questioned, the racists and the white extremists come out of the woodwork to defend it.
on May 10th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
As a note to everyone: Let’s keep these comments free of name calling. We’re better than that. Even if many people espouse terrible views that we find reprehensible, we should not fall into the trap of name calling. On the OA News Web site, I have been called some terrible names by people in support of the Confederate flag and against Mr. Dowdell. In defending him, I have been accused of pretending to be white, of being a twit, dolt, idiot, and things that didn’t make it through the censors, although a death threat did make it through until I complained. We become these people when we act like them.
on May 10th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
For some good examples of some very hateful and white supremacist speech and attitudes go to:
http://www.oanow.com/oan/news/.....zes/71268/
and
http://www.oanow.com/oan/news/.....ats/69986/
This is not a Klan or Neo-Confederate Web site, but a supposed mainstream local newspaper for a college town in Alabama. The town where I live and where the Confederate flag incident occured. It’s pretty amazing and depressing stuff.
on May 10th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
There’s no way to seperate the hate from the heritage.
That’s because the Reb flag symbolizes a heritage OF hate.
And “Snaggletooth”? LOL!! That name visualizes a meth-mouth redneck who can’t decide whether to wear his white hood or his brown shirt to the cross burning!!
on May 11th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Dear Lori,
I understand your situation. For that applaud your courage and efforts to remain vigilante. This shows us that you have serious backbone and that you are a strong woman. But when it comes to death threats spat from the [W]igger subhumans from the fringed right. The best thing you can do is simply arm yourself with cancealed weaponery. I carry mine whenever I head into places deemed dangerous and possible targets hence I carry mine all the time. Because I am a certified weapons holder, and I have handled guns since I was 9(started out with Beeman BBrifles). You have a greater chance of survival when carrying a cancealed firearm and other weapons such as pepper sprays and tasers and knives. I bought my girlfriend a lipstick knife once and she thought it was cool and may come in handy. You gotta protect yourself from these racist spitting inbreeds. All they can do is gutter death threats because they know they have lost and are desperate. Now is the time to protect yourselves. Like Lori from above, even beautiful White women are not immune from the hatred shown to us by these infidal white supremacists. They hate everybody including beautiful White women too. So don’t give up the fight for Freedom!
on May 12th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
The Confederate flag is a front symbol for the klan, or “gentlemanly” middle-class versions like the former white citizens society. They can phony-baloney all they want about how it means something else, their ancestors fought for the Confederacy over something else besides slavery (blah blah), but if they live down south, they darn well know what it represents. I have no sympathy for the “grave desecration” weepers. They might as well be flying swastikas. May your symbols of treason and racism burn and never fly in America.
I was in Alabama about 35 years ago, and it was culture shock time for anyone from the northeast. Whites and blacks existed in what amounted to parallel universes decades after segregation had ended. With the whites so narrow minded, backward and ignorant, that anyone the least bit different, let alone African American, was harassed. We were told “to get out of town” while not doing anything else except being tourists. We had people scream at us from cars, we had police officers bother us.
All in the name of “free speech” I’m sure.
on May 12th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Hehehe, thanks for that link, http://www.oanow.com/oan/news/…..zes/71268/ ! I joined and posted under my legal first name of Bobbie. I had a field day in my comments!
I’m lovin’ it!
on May 12th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Aww, that Alabama redneck racist newspaper! My comment was supposed to be posted after 2 minutes,and that was at about 2 hours ago! It’s still not there. I’ve been censored! Who ever is approving comments seems to only want those in support of irrational hatred toward Dowdell by those Southern backward products of mountain inbreeding – just I called them in my comment at the site.
I’m not going to apologize for my name calling. So many people who comment here call it “Freedom of Speech” and I’m sick of them!
I shall return! :-)
on May 13th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Khadijah, It’s possible they have shut down comments on this thread. Not sure, but I haven’t seen any comments posted since yesterday afternoon.
I not only complained to the editor of the paper, but filed a police report. The racist comments violate the supposed terms and agreement of the Web site. I pointed that out to the editor. The very nice policeman who came to my house also thought it would be a good idea to shut down that thread. He is following up on the threat that I received from one of the esteemed racist posters.
Geno, thanks for the advice and support, but I lived in Los Angeles for 20 years without ever owning any kind of a weapon and I’ll be darned if I’m going to let Alabama run me scared.
on May 13th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Khadijah,
Its imperative to note that this debate about “Freedom of Speech”, really isn’t about Freedom of Speech, they use that platform as an agenda to preserving pro-white interests. Many of these sites catering to the lunatic right, do not practice “Freedom of Speech”. So don’t expect your comments to be posted in many of these hopelessly pointless blogspheres. Their crying and yapping about censorship is all rubbish. When the infection of “KKKonservatism” (or the neo-Con) really has nothing to do with “Freedom of Speech”, their political stance is very contradictory, not necessarily controversal. Want a good example? Look to the McCain’s former presidential running mate–Sarah Palin, who in her hometown in Wahsilla, has tried vigorously to remove numerous library books at the town’s only public library, in an effort to censor what people can read and learn(based on her religious beliefs-the neo-Con).The public has lashed out, threatening to recall her, if she proceeded further with her censorship ploys. She backed out. This is just one of many examples of how the Republifools and the extreme right, excercise a serious lack of Freedom of Speech, which really has nothing to do with the matter.
on May 13th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Okay Lori, I didn’t realize a thread would ever be shut down, but then again, I haven’t been posting that long. Thanks for letting me, as I was taking it personally and now I realize it may not be anything personal!
on May 13th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
The idea that the South was fighting for slavery is absolutely ludicrous. Not one single southern soldier was willing to lay down his life for a slave I guarantee that. The civil war was about much more than slaves. Blacks give themselves too much credit.
on May 16th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
And Ryan J. Murdough – do you miss the point for fun? Of course no southern soldier laid down their life for a slave. That’s the entire point.
on May 17th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
What I want to know is where are those of the white race in this community who support the removal of offensive flags/emblems, etc.?
If I lived close enough I would go and remove everyone of those and let those white girls of the south see this white girl of the south do it! Can that be called a “hate crime?”
The civil war was a sad time for this nation, slavery a disgrace, the massacre of our native Americans and so on. We must learn from this history, not reliving much less celebrating. Place the official flag of this nation on all who lost their lives during such travesties and by doing such, acknowledge to our children we have learned and will not repeat such crimes against others.
on May 18th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
I greatly appreciate all of the preceding comments. Born and raised in the south, I have always detested “the South’s” white racism and slavery heritage. I also recognize, however, that no aspect of southern history has ever been just “black and white.” The “BIG Picture,” yes, can be reduced to white oppression and racial bigotry, but in so doing you overlook all the other historical, religious, political, personal and inter-racial facts that make up the true tragedy and treasure of all that has taken place in “the South.”
As a “white” southerner, I have always breathed the depressing weight of a living history of rationalized evil and suffering. Even when I was on the receiving end of unprovoked “reverse” racial violence and anger, it just seemed part of the “atmosphere.” The dark and tragic legacy of the Confederate “battle flag” still turns my stomach, even when I hear a sincere acquaintance repeat the claim that it was all for “states’ rights.” As I have disagreed with and been cursed by otherwise “good-hearted,” hospitable neighbors, I have also come to realize that denying or retaliating against the truth – just because it offends me – only perpetuates the past conflict and never allows for any real resolution.
Some commentators have said, “Hey, southern rednecks: The war is over! The South lost; so get over it!” I couldn’t agree more; but, at the same time: “Hey, EVERYONE: The war is over! So get over it! Learn from it and move on in your own daily life, or you will just fan the flame and light the fuse that your lunatic counterparts keep waving in front of you.”
Yes: there are still vehemently racist bigots in the South; but the ones that worry me most are the polite, humble, soft-spoken, kind, helpful neighbors in my church who – with every well-meaning and sincere bone in their body – while genuinely “caring” for “black people,” still harbor a dark seed that compels quiet disdain and separation. Thankfully, this seed is nowhere near as prolific as it has been these past 140’ish years; but it is still here.
Let us also not forget that same evil seed of white racism was also rampantly rooted throughout the northern “United States,” the same states that long demanded low-cost cotton from the south. The Abolitionists were NOT a majority voice, just (thankfully) a determined and articulate voice that swayed political will in the years preceding the Civil War. There were certainly “free” and “freed” black Americans in the North, along with indentured servants, and “inherited” black slaves, many of whom were “freed” but stayed on as hired servants. Again – while certainly less abusive or violent – Northern white racism was just as deep-seeded as in the South. It just did not have its own flag to represent it, or the same institutions or economic motivations to promote it.
In any case, I must ask my well-educated church members as I also ask myself and YOU, dear Reader:
With all of your impassioned moral viewpoints and good intentions, when was the last time you had a “non-white” ethnic person or family over to your house for dinner (if you are technically “white”)?
Or: when did you last host a “white” person or family at your house for dinner (if you are “Black” or “Hispanic” or “Asian” or “Native American,” etc.)?
AND AFTER you had your token cross-cultural dinner party at your house, how many more times have you had someone very different from you and your socio-cultural, economic class over for dinner at your house? AND how many lasting, positive, constructive relationships do you have with people who are very different from you?
We can rant and rave and wave our ideological and ethnic banners all we want; but – like my Afro-American neighbors have reminded me over the years: if you are not actively DOING something to counter and correct the problem, then you are still part of the problem. Good intentions and words-without-action actually help maintain “the problem.” So – the shorter version regarding racism: “If you are not helping solve the problem, you are the problem.”
I do not believe stomping on the past – on anyone’s past, as offensive and painful and heinous as it may be – solves any problem or elevates anyone to a higher moral ground. Bishop Dowdell has every right to claim that he is offended by certain words, symbols and gestures, but as a follower of Jesus Christ I am not sure stomping on the symbol of the offense (or the offender) would be Jesus’ first choice. He ate supper with sinners in their homes. He stomped on the toes, wallets and egos of the religious leaders, and angrily cleansed the House of Worship, not the cemetery. The past is the past, as filthy as it may be. “Let the dead bury their dead.”
History is full of horrific human evil, always inflicted by human beings on other human beings, and nominal “Christians’” hands are not clean, especially in the South. If some twisted morons still “celebrate” such evils then – yes – they need to be opposed and invited to higher ground; but when I see a Confederate flag on the grave of a Confederate soldier, knowing countless families were torn apart by their opposing views, beliefs and commitments, caught up in something they could not fully comprehend, I see evil, tragedy, and truth.
The slave trade, African families sold and separated; The “Klan,” lynchings, beatings, rapes; poor, white tenant farmers enlisting because their relatives were killed by “damn Yankees;” non-slaveholding whites fighting for “southern honor” or “states’ rights;” racist bigots refusing to let any federal government tell them what they can do or who they can own; young brothers shooting at each other from opposite lines on the battle field; an estimated 618,000 enlisted men killed from northern and southern homes – more than all U.S. war dead in the Revolution and on through the Vietnam War combined; and present-day racists and supremacists drugged on the adrenalin of hate: THIS and more is what the Confederate “Battle Flag” represents. It is nothing to “celebrate;” but it cannot be erased, either.
“MEMORIAL DAY” is an official NATIONAL holiday, and it began in the South as a day to honor all the fallen Confederate soldiers, but it also recognized ALL the northern and southern troops who were killed. If an old church or other cemetery in the South holds a solemn observance on Memorial Day, and marks the graves of all war veterans from the Civil War to Iraq with the flag under which they fought and died, whether I agree with what one of those flags represents or not, it is a necessary moment to remember and recognize humanity, and evil, tragedy, and truth, and that stubborn hope for a day when we “…will study war no more.”
The truth stands, no matter how much we want to forget it, bury it, stomp on it. It is what it was. It is what it is. The question for ALL citizens of these thinly “United States of America” is: “What am I going to DO today to build bridges between myself and my neighbors, and to listen to, hear and value people with whom I disagree?”
We cannot (and should not be counting on) some “utopia;” but until I see more so-called “liberal” minded, educated elites actually serving and getting to know personally the people they claim they want to “help,” and also getting to know personally the “red-neck” racists they so despise, then it’s just the same white-noise and bottled snake-oil we pompous, self-righteous people have been selling since well-meaning do-gooders yelled, “Crucify him!” and “strange fruit” swung from southern trees.
P Leo Mac
on May 18th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
CORRECTION:
In previous commentary I mis-wrote regarding Memorial Day.
I meant to say that IN the South various observances of Memorial Day honored fallen Confederate soldiers, and LATER recognized all the war dead. In writing rapidly I did not mean to imply that Memorial Day the “national holiday” actually began in “the South.” “Memorial Days” sprang up all over after the Civil War, and the first official national Memorial Day was observed in 1868 at Arlington National Cemetery. The South did not recognize or participate in the national Memorial Day until after World War I. A good summary is at:
http://www.usmemorialday.org/backgrnd.html .
on May 19th, 2009 at 9:48 am
P Leo Mac,
Thank you for your eloquent opinion, much of which I agree with. However, you make an error in assuming that liberals talk-the-talk but don’t walk-the-walk. Most of my friends are very mixed ethnically, racially, religiously and sexually oriented. Most of my friends’ friends are too. Perhaps the area of South where you live is not this way and you can encourage people around you to open their social worlds.
on May 19th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Yes – thank you, Lori.
When I wax verbosely I often overlook clarity.
That remark about “liberal” minded folks was really microscopically aimed at specific church persons in my own experience, not “liberal” minded people in general, but perhaps anyone — “liberal” being a superficial label, not a statement of actual character – or “conservative” or anywhere in the “spectrum” of ideological labels who do not walk our talk. I lived several years in Boston, MA, have several acquaintances from all over the nation and world, and – thankfully – many people here in the South are nothing like what I was referring to in the initial commentary. I was just reflecting on the ones that still “worry me the most.”
on May 19th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
“Lori said,on May 10th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
It’s that the flag is used by many white supremacist groups and that it is mostly revered by whites looking to a nostalgic past where they were in control.”
Here is exactly the problem all you, white Southerner hating, liberals are overlooking. We will not be enslaved, as you think we should be, to made amends for slavery. You are not in control, as you wish to be, of our lives or rights to do what we wish to do. We are American citizens too, with every right that you have to the Bill of Rights. We have every right to be proud of our heritage and will continue to do so, no matter what you do or say. Notice I’m not an inbred, illiterate idiot. I’m just the proud great great grandson of several Confederate soldiers.
on May 22nd, 2009 at 11:01 am
While I certainly understand that the Bishop feels very strongly on this issue, it’s important to respect others as well. You shouldn’t mess with anything that anyone else leaves on the graves of their dead, whether you agree with it or not.
Personally, I am a Southerner who chooses not to associate myself with the battle flag due to all of the connotations it carries. Nonetheless, if another of my relatives left a flag on one of my ancestors’ graves and I saw someone else remove it in such a way, I would be very upset. You just don’t go there.
on October 8th, 2009 at 9:44 am
The grave plot are owned by the persons that paid for it. It is just like buying your house. If you place something on it and someone comes by and take it, that is breaking the law. If this was my ancestors grave, I would be up-set to start off with and then I would call the police to place a report for theift of property. You and you only have the right to place and remove what is on this plot due to ownership.
on November 19th, 2009 at 1:14 am
First I’m an Ironworker and I work with some of the best black Ironworkers you could ask for on jobs. Dangerous jobs, building high rises, and bridges. We take turns saving each other’s lives on a day to day basis. They are Ironworker brothers of mine. But let me tell you something. My great great granddad and his brother fought with the Georgia 26th Infantry and made it all the way to Appomattox Court House. I’m very proud of my family. My father fought in WW2 with the 4th army 3ed armored Div, and both of my grandfathers fought in WW1 one in France and the other in Siberia. My point is; if I saw anyone black or white remove anything from any one of their grave sites, both of us are going to be mighty sore in the morning! They ALL fought for what they believed was right!
It’s not HATE it realy is HERATIGE!!
on March 14th, 2010 at 10:33 pm
Call me KP. I am doing a college sociology research paper on skin heads and came across this blog, I would like to speak to different people who practice and participate in skin head activities and lifestyle. Yes I am black (Jamaican), US Army veteran 2001-2007. Email would be awesome. Thank you.
kparchment@yahoo.com
on September 12th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Going to Alabama and asking them to change their flag is the same thing as going to any other state and saying change your flag. When i was growing up people always said be proud of who you are and what you are.So my family fought and died for the Confederate are you saying i shouldn’t be proud of them? The flag is a sign of southern pride but then people are uneasy about what southern pride is.Southern pride is the same as wearing the union flag and saying “it’s northern pride” when some one asks you why you’re wearing it. Alabama should be able to keep their flag it’s a sign of there heritage not a sign of hate. I understand where civil rights activists are coming from but, slavery has ended that flag is a memorial for the ancestors that died. I honestly wish people could just leave it alone. Would you guys walk up to a Christian and say take off your cross cause i’m not christian and i don’t think your right? That’s exactly what people are doing. BE PROUD OF WHO YOU ARE.