You should include Malaysia in there, as well. Just about 100% of all ethnic Malays are Muslims. Despite this, their government is secular, promoting freedom and diversity of religions. Along with Islamic holidays, the holidays of other prominent religions are also observed.

I think it’s pretty interesting that Turkey is a direct descendant of the empire that was responsible for a very vast spread of Islam throughout that region, and into Eastern Europe.

Again, I don’t seek to defend Islam, and you won’t find me defending any religion. Nor do I defend gross violation of human rights, be it by the Islamists in the Middle East, Christians throwing gays in jail in Latin America and the Carribean, or atheist/communists commiting genocide in Cambodia.

What I defend is the freedom of individuals to find their own religion, even one I find disagreeable, and when I disagree with and combat them, it will be on their human rights abuses, not on the name of the religion or philosophy they use to justify it.

Again, you call Islam the most oppressive religion in the world as if Islam can really be called one religion. It is like Christianity in that regard, save that its fanatics are extremely powerful and well organized in many countries; much like Christianity looked several hundred years ago. Islam, however, contains many philosophies, and to judge it by its most extreme groups is unjustified. Despite you believing my head is in the sand, I am able to reconginze that Islam is followed by over a billion people and we cannot simply bomb it into disappearing. Sometimes no ‘courage’ is needed to face the truth, but the consequences of this reality are enormous.

Since we cannot forcefully convert 1.2 billion people, doesn’t it make far more sense to try and promote versions of what they believe that are in line with human rights? The fundamentalists argue the west is corrupt, we need to prove otherwise while at the same time revealing their version of Islam for the poison that it is. Yes, I argue that self reflection is needed, but don’t think that this means leaving fanaticism unchecked.

You say pick any Islamic government? I pick Turkey. 98% are Muslim, yet they have democracy, a secular state, and despite their government currently being managed by those who would love to make it an Islamist state, they have been unable to succeed because of fear of reprisal from that almost 100% Muslim population. Turkey is far from a perfect nation, but it has managed to maintain a secular identity even during today’s rise in extremist Islam even to the level of the government, and in its history was one of the first nations to allow women to vote and run for political office. There is potential there for coexistance, progress, and human rights.

Rather than declaring Islam our enemy, not a real religion, and impossible to coexist with peacefully, we should be attempting to encourage the secularization of Islamic nations like what occured in Turkey so long ago, and we should attempt to preserve the protection of democracy and human rights in Islamic nations where it exists (Indonesia, too, is not ruled by theocracy and has more Muslims than anywhere else in the world) while encouraging it in other nations Muslim and otherwise. Finally, we should judge individual Muslims and individual Muslim governments by their actions and individually held beliefs, not on the grounds of their being Muslim.

But, in any documentary such as that, there are going to be inaccuracies or things that are seen from a different perspective. If you show the fringe of one religion in the light of criticism, it’s pretty natural that the other side is going to say “well, you do that too – look at this”.

http://www.theamericanmuslim.o.....st/0016753

So I guess we agree on one thing.

Ruslan:
An abortion doctor or a guard getting shot are not the equivalent of international terrorism.
You also seem to forget that the muslims in Bosnia were attempting to steal a huge portion of a country that they had no legal right to.
That is a civil war.
What is cowardly is not recognizing a threat and not dealing with it. Putting your head in the sand while you sing Kumbaya takes no courage.

How you folks defend Islam, the most oppressive religion on this earth, is beyond me.
Muslims discriminate against women, children, homosexuals. They routinely execute people for things like homosexuality and infidelity. They mutilate female children.
The list of the horrors of Islam go on and on.

So, how can you folks defend them when they practice pretty much everything you are against?
You guys have no logical consistency.

Islam really is not a religion. It was a system created by a conqueror to help him achieve his goals.
Take a look at any Islamic government. They are the most oppressive governments on earth and they are made up of, you guessed it, muslims that have power.
To truly measure a person or group, look at what they do when they have power.
Muslims have shown that giving them power creates horrible, evil countries that take women who have been raped, declare them guilty of infidelity, then shoot them in the head in a stadium.

Is that a “progressive” value now?

If anyone saw my post in another thread, discussing extremism, it’s pretty easy to get a small number of bad apples to spoil the lot. The folks who are in the center, or moderate, seem to be the least vocal.

If one could get a copy of the DVD “Obsession”, which explores in depth Muslim extremists, you will see what I mean. There are a lot of good Muslims out there that would not think of hurting anybody. Some of them are getting pretty sick and tired of their religion getting a bad name because of the few bad apples. During the Iranian election crisis, myself along with thousands of people, set up internet proxies so that young Iranian people could get out to their Twitter and Facebook accounts to post videos and first-hand accounts of what was REALLY going on there. I believe that is a case where extremism finally bent the moderates to the point of breaking.

Face it Joe, you are a cowardly person, afraid of your own shadow. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and the vast majority of that will never attack anyone over religion, or for any other reason for that matter.

Have fun being afraid of everything, coward.

Perhaps my last comment wasn’t clear. Since I fall solidly into the category of people that hard-line Islamists call for the execution of, do not make the mistake of thinking that I ‘love’ Islam. Personally, I find the religiously motivated laws and policies of nations like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the Taliban’s Afghanistan disgusting. That doesn’t mean that I believe we should invade those nations and attempt to ‘democratize’ them by force. Nor does it mean that I believe that all followers of Islam are extremists who want to commit terrorist actions.

As for terrorism being restricted in modern times to Islam, perhaps you should consider investigating the Irish Republican Army, National Liberation Front of Tripura, or the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda. These organizations all claim(ed) Christian religious affiliation, but most Christians would dismiss any connection just as they would probably not want to associate themselves with those who commit violent attacks against abortion providers.

Your own comment that Islam is at war with the west is the true bunk here. Would you include Indonesia, an American ally in the so called ‘War on Terrorism’ on the West’s side, or on Islam’s? They work with the West when it comes to counterterrorism, are a trading and security partner of the United States, but Indonesia also has more Muslims living in it than any other nation in the world; probably close to 200 million of them. Does your so called war also include this nation alongside the much reported Middle Eastern nations such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran?

If it’s ‘Islam’ that you are at war with, then the West’s leaders seem to have missed the fact that Indonesia and Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, not to mention the Muslims in India, about 150 million of them, have been overlooked in this conflict. Maybe you’d argue it’s naivity on our part, but I think the reality is that there is nothing threatening to the West or our civilizations coming from most Muslims in the world. Are their values opposed to ours? Some are, but so are the values of Christian hardliners.

The fact of the matter is, you can’t be at war with ‘Islam’ because Islam is not a nation or even a cohesive religious philosophy. There are fundamentalist, moderate, liberal, and even secular Muslims and you’re implication that all of them are at war with all Western nations is so staggaringly misrepresentative and simplistic I find it difficult to believe you’ve done any actual investigation into the topic.

So don’t make the mistake of thinking I defend ‘Islam’, because that is not my intention. Similarly, by pointing out the existance of terrorist groups alligned with ‘Christianity’, I am not targetting the religion or its followers as a whole. What I ‘defend’ is the innocence and reputation of hundreds of millions of Muslims around the world who support peace and oppose terror, but as a consequence never seem to make it into the media headlines. I don’t agree with their religious and political ideas, but I do believe that they have a right to their opinions and to the peaceful expression of them.

That was actually a pretty thought provoking response. The fact is that any country that feels as though it can project its influence will do so.

Can you give an example of a developed country that doesn’t exert some kind of influence, either global or regional?

I believe that our country is experiencing the deepest ideological divisions since our Civil War. Between the government acting out of control, the economy in the tank, having a president that carries what seems to be a cult of personality, to having our hands in every pie around the world, things are pretty scary.

Secondly, imperialism is imperialism, and in modern times it often takes the form of neo-colonialism, whereby a more powerful country or bloc of countries controls foreign nations via influence of capital, military aid, etc. Viewed in this light, US imperialism is no morally worse nor better than that of other nations, but rather what the US has actually done, is the point. Even countries like Turkey have their examples of imperialism, but they are far smaller and can only constitute regional powers. Turkey’s main victims have been the Kurds in terms of imperialist violence. Incidentally, guess who has been giving Turkey, a military dictatorship, so much support throughout its existence. Hint: Red, white, and blue flag, 13 stripes, 50 stars. The point is, that millions of other people pay a dear price for the standard of living you enjoy.

On a third most important point, I don’t have a shred of faith in Obama. I am not “disappointed” with him like so many naive liberals were- I flat out told liberal friends that they were inventing an idea of this man that was totally different from his actual character. They didn’t listen. Sadly I haven’t had the opportunity for “I told you so” yet.

Lastly, you may construe my comments as “anti-American”, but some times the truth just happens to turn out that way. It is not “anti-German” to talk about the Holocaust, or more analogous- waging aggressive war. It is not anti-Japanese to talk about the Rape of Nanking. There is no reason why a different standard should be applied to the US.

I haven’t noticed any Christians or Jews running around lately blowing up embassies, buildings and planes in coordinated terrorist attacks.

This phenomenon is reserved for muslims.

Islam is at war with the West, plain and simple.
The values of Islam are incompatible with the West.

We either recognize the fact and respond in kind or we lose. They are using our laws and freedoms against us and will triumph if we can not even figure out that we are at war and what we are at war with.

I always fail to understand the liberal love for Islam. Islamic countries deny womens rights, execute homosexuals, deny abortions, the list goes on and on.
Why would you guys want to defend Islam when they stand for pretty much everything a good liberal does not?

Some consistency here would be honest at least.

I believe that there are plenty of Muslims that can, and should be trusted. There are many Muslims that, as a link below shows are serving our country right now. For those that don’t want to know more, here is a link to a good article:

http://www.apaam.org/Kafel_Iraq_Peace.htm

What you, and other liberals fail to see in your passion is that by flinging insults and not making clear who the target of your criticism is, you end up alienating the people, and YOU become the enemy.

Please define “imperialist”. That seems to be the battle cry of communists, socialists, or people who have a romantic view of Che Guevara. If you are against the “imperialist” An imperial government would imply our flag is flying over territories other than our own. If you are speaking of influence, what is the difference between the US, China, Russia, the UK, Saudi Arabia, and India?.

In any case, if your target is the government, why do you, and your ilk, include Republicans in that? Are we members of the government? If Obama turns out to not be the guy you guys thought he would be, would you also start to direct your rage towards other Democrats, as well as Republicans?

The motives of you and your comrades are not very clear, neither are your targets. Reading your comments, I would say that you are anti-American in general. If liberals want to get their message into, and considered by, the mainstream, that kind of rhetoric is no way to do it. All you end up doing is keeping your message within the wingnuts and bobbleheads on your side of the house – and, yes, YOU guys have them, too …

As a non-religious person, I can understand your unease with passages in the Koran that seem to condone this kind of behaviour. But if you’re correct, and a religion cannot be divorced from its founding documents for convenience or political correctness, than more religions than Islam become extremely unpleasant.

I am, of course, referring to the Bible. One wonders, when Christians go on about how many horrible morals there are in the Koran, if they’ve actually read Leviticus, or Revelations. Here are some choice passages from the old and new testaments:

Deuteronomy 20:16-17 – God advocates genocide against the Caananites.

Leviticus – Numerous calls for punishing crimes which offend religion/tradition with death by stoning.

Romans 9:20-22 – Paul relates that God can create evil people and than destroy them/damn them to hell simply to evince his own wrath and power.

Revelations – Vast population of unbelievers thrown into a lake of fire for eternity. This, like the genocide and creation of evil people just to punish them for acting the way they were created, is presented as a wonderful thing.

My point is simple: If we accept that all religious individuals must be treated with the level of concern warrented by their religious texts regardless of whether or not they claim a different interpretation, than Christianity and Judaism, as well as Islam, become incompatable with the American constitution, as well as the constitutions of all Western and, for that matter, a great many African, Middle Eastern, and Asian countries as well.

The problem is that the vast majority of Jews would not argue that they have the right to commit genocide in order to establish Isreal/Zion, and the majority of Christians disagree with these passages, and similarly horrific visions of the future in the New Testament as well. Generally, Christians and Jews seem to take a mostly inclusive view toward their religious tradition and ignore the nasty elements of their scripture. That the scripture remains nasty, and fundamentalists use it to commit and advocate evil, is a separate problem. The same is probably true for most of the more than 1 billion Muslims living on this planet. Condemn the Koran if you wish, but realize the same contempt could be levelled toward the Torah and Bible. I don’t follow any of the three, but I think we should er on the side of caution before associating everyone who does with every word in them. There’s an old saying about glass houses and stones that I think applies here for Christians who don’t do so.

In World War I, Americans of German descent were not to be trusted, so my great-grandfather (who had immigrated in 1880) was taken in and questioned as an enemy alien.

In the 1920’s, the KKK said that Catholics were not to be trusted, and so some Nebraska klansmen refused to trade farm labor with my grandfather.

Maj. Hasan has something in common with other notorious gunmen. Was Islam to blame for Maj. Hasan’s crime? You might as well ask the following:

Was Christianity responsible for the anti-abortion murders committed by Scott Roeder, Paul Hill and John Salvi?

Was Orthodox Judaism responsible for Yigal Amir’s assassination of Yitzhak Rabin?

Was the civil rights movement responsible for Arthur Bremer’s attempt on the life of George Wallace?

These are things we all need to think about before we go venting our spleens and putting our often half-baked opinions on view for all to see. We also need to remember this serious observation of Ben Frankin:

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

“The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.”

But what you fail to realize Tim, is that there is a difference between hating the imperialist government, and hating the individual people, which is just plain foolish. If Americans continue to support their government, or not take interest in what their government is doing overseas, they will be tacitly if not actively endorsing such policies, in which case many people actively opposing such policies will rationalize attacks on them, or at least not care so much about minimizing “collatoral damage.”

Joe, if you are going to recommend people read the Koran, you should recommend the Yusuf Ali translation, but most importantly a translation with commentary. Yes, many revelations have a certain historical context, but this usually absolves the Koran rather than condemns it. Besides, you will find far worse in the Bible.

You said: “Yes, and it is made up of patriotic men and women of all faiths and backgrounds. How many of these people are Muslim? Probably quite a bit. How many of these Muslims have gone on a rampage and killed people? I only know of one. By your logic, all Christians should be excluded because of the killing of the abortion doctor. I really get tired of these WATBs going ballistic every time one of “those people” gets out of line but completely ignore the story when it’s one of their own. Grow up.”

“One of their own” … What do you mean by that? Show me “one of my own” that has done something like this, and I would say they should be equally repudiated. The problem is that you guys don’t repudiate actions such as Maj Hasan’s. You “try to understand” and “try to be sensitive”. If it’s a white, Christian male, you guys would be witnesses at his execution. The problem here is double standards, and no one can profess to be tolerant nor impartial while operating under a double standard.

I, on the other hand, profess neither. :) That being said, when have Christian military officers killed abortion doctors? When was the last time that you can remember that any military officer went on a rampage such as this guy did? Please respond, citing new articles and dates.

I am not familiar with pithy liberal acronyms, so I need to know what “WATB” means. Assuming the “TB” is “Tea Bagger”, I have not had the pleasure to go to a tea party yet, no any other kind of protest. I have a day job. If “WA” is “Whiny Ass”, I am not whining. I’m simply answering things. I did not say that anyone needed to be excluded. I simply said that diversity and providing opportunities to people shouldn’t be the *priority* of the military. It should recruit those that are optimally able to defend our country – diversity and opportunities will be contigent on the people who come in, and how much the military gives back to these people. The military really can’t afford to implement “cultural sensitivity” in its recruiting and training practices. Typically, our enemies aren’t that sensitive to us!

I don’t think that anyone necessarily should be excluded from the military, either – so long as they do not undermine the mission of the military. As I said before, the people recruited should be optimally able to defend our country – not head cases. Someone identified as such should not be allowed to continue to serve. I am willing to bet that if someone put him on the couch, he would have ended up with a Section 8 discharge. The problem is, so many people were scared of “offending” him, that they didn’t dare say “Hey! What you’re saying is out of line”, and then have someone check him out. Had they done that, there would have at least been visibility to his mental state, and beliefs. We might have 13 people still alive today.

Lastly, I can’t help myself, so please forgive me. :)

I’d rather be a teabagger than be teabagged. Unless, of course, you’re into that kind of thing …

None of your “facts” or assumptions about Islam or the Koran have any bearing on the truth that in our society respect for freedom of expression requires the tolerance of eachother’s views and the other’s right to exist. There exists no difficulty or ambiguity in the necessity of the above in a free, democratic society.

The Bible is rampant with violence, patriarchy, rape, senseless murder that is religiously sanctioned as justifiable acts. Does that taint all of those who profess to follow the Bible as people who are committed to such acts? I’d have no problem finding churches, many of which are considered fringe and underground, which in fact, do condone acts of violence and terrorism against their own imagined enemies. Enemies who are in fact simply innocent citizens.

Thank you Rusian for your clear and truthful summary of atrocities committed by the powerful, politically connected and even corporate interests in the name of Americans like myself. I am ashamed, embarrassed and disgusted at the inhumanity that has been committed in the name of America, but I am not a rube, nor am I about to give up on seeing to it that America will someday become the democratic beacon of justice and peace that it professes to be.

The Ft. Hood shooter was obviously mentally imbalanced and acting on his own. The only similarity between his actions and that of Islamic extremists is the similarity of religion and possibly motive; although one was more of self inflated grandeur than actual group induced activity.

“The US military is for the defense of our country. Not a platform to show case diversity nor serve as a soup kitchen for the “have nots.”
You have it exactly right Tim.

To Ana:
Thanks.

I will, however, say that the latter part of your commentary makes perfect sense.

Unfortunately, as much as the 1st Amendment allows groups such as the SPLC or MoveOn.org to exist, it also allows for alleged hate groups to exist.

They have a right to exist, as does the SPLC. The problem is when the exercise of one’s rights infringes on the rights of another.

The problem is figuring out who is an extremist, and who is just a crazy Skinhead. Can’t just outlaw groups, that’s unconstitutional. Can’t perform domestic wiretaps without a warrant, because that’s bad too.

So, what should we do?

Alleged? Dozens of people saw him do this, and this is “alleged”?

Ruslan,

You should be ashamed of what you have said. Our country is not perfect, but which one is? How can you justify this? Do you think we deserve this? Even the innocents in this country? Perhaps you?

If there would be a full-blown “jihad”, I am sure that guys like Maj. Hasan won’t recognize you as the mild-mannered guy that you, and simply bypass you.

If you really think that our entire country is evil, as it seems you have expressed through the above post, why don’t you leave this country for greener pastures? Doesn’t it make you sick to be around us?

Yes, and it is made up of patriotic men and women of all faiths and backgrounds. How many of these people are Muslim? Probably quite a bit. How many of these Muslims have gone on a rampage and killed people? I only know of one. By your logic, all Christians should be excluded because of the killing of the abortion doctor. I really get tired of these WATBs going ballistic every time one of “those people” gets out of line but completely ignore the story when it’s one of their own. Grow up.

And don’t even pretend that immigration to the west is some kind of “Islamic invasion”- those immigrants were welcomed in because lazy Europeans and Americans wanted to exploit their labor.

Secondly, anyone who can’t see the difference between a Nazi skinhead and a Muslim wanting to join the army has obviously suffered a severe injury to the head. One can be a faithful Muslim, according to most of the mainstream Islamic world, and NOT support the Salafists or Wahhabists. In case you didn’t know, Egypt has an army, Saudi Arabia has an army, and so on. These armies continue to exist despite the fact that folks like Bin Laden are basically condemning them en masse.

By stark contrast, one cannot be a Nazi and disavow the belief in the need for violent revolution, ethnic cleansing, etc. Don’t believe me, sign up an account on one of the major neo-Nazi forums and start trying to espouse that view. See what happens.

If we should distrust Muslims on the basis of religion, then we MUST also screen for fundamentalists Christians and those with a conservative viewpoint as well. Statistics prove that the majority of terrorist acts in America are committed by far-right wing conservatives, often religious fundamentalists. In fact, one reason why their body count might be lower is because more often than not their plots are easily sabotaged and prevented from coming to fruition. When you read about many of those plans, you’ll understand why that’s a damn good thing.

Does anyone in the SPLC have *any* military experience? Do they understand what a military does? Probably not. How many are Christians? Probably none.