Hatewatch Tweets
Hatewatch is managed by the staff of the Intelligence Report, an investigative magazine published by the Alabama-based civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center.
Extremist Groups Surge in 2009
Today, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) released its annual “Year in Hate and Extremism” report. Broad-based populist anger at political, demographic and economic changes in America ignited an explosion of new extremist groups and activism across the nation.
The SPLC documented a 244 percent increase in the number of active “Patriot” groups in 2009. “Patriot” groups and the paramilitary arm of the movement, the militias, are steeped in wild, antigovernment conspiracy theories and see the federal government as their enemy. Their numbers grew from 149 groups in 2008 to 512 groups in 2009, an astonishing addition of 363 new groups in a single year. Militias were a major part of the increase, growing from 42 in 2008 to 127 in 2009.
The numbers back up an August report by the SPLC, “The Second Wave: Return of the Militias,” that first documented the return of antigovernment extremist groups. The movement came roaring back to life after more than a decade of decline. The increase is worrying as the 1990s Patriot movement was associated with high levels of violence, most dramatically the Oklahoma City bombing that left 168 people dead.
The growth of Patriot groups comes at a time when the number of hate groups stayed at record levels – rising from 926 in 2008 to 932 in 2009, according to the report. The increase caps a decade in which the number of hate groups surged by 55 percent. The expansion would have been much greater in 2009 if not for the demise of the American National Socialist Workers Party, a key neo-Nazi network whose founder was arrested in October 2008.
There also has been a surge in “nativist extremist” groups – vigilante organizations that go beyond advocating strict immigration policy and actually confront or harass suspected immigrants. These groups grew from 173 groups in 2008 to 309 in 2009, a rise of nearly 80 percent.
These three strands of the radical right – the hate groups, the nativist extremist groups, and the Patriot organizations – are the most volatile elements on the American political landscape. Taken together, their numbers increased by more than 40 percent, rising from 1,248 groups in 2008 to 1,753 last year.
on March 2nd, 2010 at 12:28 pm
“…the federal government as their enemy.”
Our government no longer follows our constitution so they have become the enemy of the people.
on March 2nd, 2010 at 2:50 pm
Is Jonah Goldberg’s slanderous lies aka “Liberal Fascism” mentioned in the report as well? That book is more-or-less a big document giving penance and forgiveness to far-right Fascists like Jack that want to murder all liberals and establish a permanent far-right majority in the United States.
Seriously Jack, people like you belong in Somalia, since you want civil war and anarchy wherever you go. You stay there for five minutes and tell me how you like the pro-anarchy propaganda Alex Jones is brainwashing you with. What did you care for the Constitution when Dick Cheney went past it and allowed waterboarding overseas?
on March 2nd, 2010 at 3:11 pm
We will be governed, BY OUR CONSENT, but we will not be ruled. Take this to heart.
on March 2nd, 2010 at 4:43 pm
Where was the outrage during the Bush Administration? It seems to me that if these so-called Patriot groups were wrong about their support for Bush and Cheney, who lied to the American people and then proceeded to send thousands of soldiers to their deaths, then one can only concluded that they are wrong about the Obama Administration.
on March 2nd, 2010 at 6:04 pm
It’s interesting to note that in this report on “Extremist Groups” and the obvious slant against the “right”, we don’t see a single mention of Homegrown Islamic groups that are preaching hate against the U.S. These groups are located throughout the U.S. training people how to commit acts of terrorism, assassinations and fire-bombings. Muslims of America (Red House, VA) and the Jamaat al-Fuqra in the U.S. have over 35 camps in the U.S. Where is the reporting on this segment of Extremism. SPLC is not just reporting facts, they’re presenting the information in a manner that promotes their views. This “report” is simply a sampling of events and groups that support their convictions and political goals. While I belive these groups to be evil in their actions and beliefs they are far from the only groups in this country that are currently active and a threat to the American way of life. Lets see some complete reporting on Extremist Groups.
on March 2nd, 2010 at 6:42 pm
There is a very important issue presented, that is: “some type of spark to set these people off”.
I remember what that “spark was. It was Waco. approx 13 children died from a very mishandled attempt to arrest an individual.
Janet Reno got on TV and said (correctly) that she “took full responsibility”. but WHERE was there responsibility. In MANY other countries both in Asia and the EU that individual in government would step down. She did not. Therefore the feels amongst many NON-RIGHTIST common folk was that saying “I’m sorry” was as far as that administration would go. (Many grotesque things could also be said about the Bush II administration (few are blameless in actions that are abhorrent).
We live in a very complex world politically in the US. I’m afraid to say that such things as the tragedy in Oklahoma could happen again; but no one really knows who the crazies are anymore.
Unfortunately many people don’t remember the 1970′s where Leftist groups bombed and killed many innocent people and aligned themselves with Middle East terrorist groups (from whom they received training & weapons).
What really concerns me is that one group would do something to spark another group to do something similar!
The appropriate thing to do is not let matters maintain themselves in the shadows.
To do so takes a Hell of a lot of courage. To stop someone when they make a racist remake & say “that shit doesn’t fly with me” (or some such statement) is not easy. It means taking a stand. It also may mean looking at BOTH sides of the political spectrum & dealing fairly with inappropriate agendas.
The REASON I say this is that I have heard subtle “shadow racist” statements from BOTH sides.
Israel is not perfect but when governmental criticism turns to antisemitism, it’s time to speak out. There ARE people who cheat on welfare, etc but when criticism turns to blaming a whole people for the actions of a few, it’s time to speak out.
on March 2nd, 2010 at 6:45 pm
So in the SPLC mind, people who want to follow the Constitution are are the bad guys, and those who subvert it are the good guys…Is that what you are saying Mr. Potok???
Damn those ‘Patriot Groups’, wanting to follow the Constitution!
Thank you Mr. Potok. You speak, we grow.
on March 3rd, 2010 at 12:40 am
Yeah I’m still wondering where all that anger was when the government actually was violating constitutional rights on a regular basis.
on March 3rd, 2010 at 6:07 am
“enemy of the people” is how Commies talk, Jack.
The Nazis used to talk that way too.
They had their people’s courts and their piano wire.
Is this what you really want, Jack?
on March 3rd, 2010 at 8:05 am
In response to “where was all that anger during the Bush years”, it was there for many of us in the Tea Party movement that were against the spending and entitlement programs, but the anger has certainly grown larger in relationship to the the even larger spending and threat of even larger entitlement programs. It wasn’t right when Bush did it and it isn’t right now. It has to end. We need to cut government spending, stop bankrupting our children and return to an era of personal responsibility as was intended in our constitution. That’s what the Tea Party movement is about. Anyone who tries to scare the public into believing ideas like the movement is full of violent extremists along the lines of Timothy McVeigh obviously isn’t interested in the truth. Their end game is to give a black eye to everyday Americans and to continue the movement away from our founding principals.
on March 3rd, 2010 at 9:48 am
I want to know WHERE the hell you Tea Partiers WERE during the Bush years? I have a sneaking feeling that a lot of you were shouting at us anti-war protesters. You can claim till the cows come home that you people were angry under Bush, but either you were all too cowardly to come out and protest or, more likely, you’re all a bunch of hypocrites who are only upset when your man’s not in the White House.
Seriously, let me get this straight- you were angry about entitlement programs? The US has one of the weakest welfare systems in the industrialized world. It has the lowest tax-burden of the industrialized world. And yet when Bush decided to throw money down the toilet by starting an endless war in Iraq- WHERE were you? Where were you when it comes to the indescribably wasteful spending of the Pentagon? Where were you with your crazy costumes when Bush signed the Patriot act? Bush brought into being one of the most serious challenges to Constitutional rights in the modern history of our country- but WHERE OH WHERE were the “defenders of the constitution” who magically became so angry and vocal once Obama got into office(only to continue the same capitalist-friendly policies while being called a socialist the whole time)? Again…WHERE WERE YOU?!
Now Vet- I looked up the group in question, and I’ll suggest a fun game for you. Do some searching on crimes by the KKK, White Nationalists, Tax Protestors, and militia groups- tallying up their violent crimes(successful and thwarted) in the last twenty years. Now compare it to the number of suspected attacks linked to the Jamaat ul-Fuqra. Once you have done that, think REAL hard as to why a group like the SPLC would focus more of its time on non-Islamic extremist groups.
Lastly, for Okay-Jim, I would sooner trust the US government to follow constitutional law before I trust some unelected, self-appointed militia leaders to do so.
on March 3rd, 2010 at 10:48 am
Ruslan,
You’ve misplaced your trust. Or better said, your trust has been violated. Our government is not following the Constitution. You mentioned the Bush years, do you think on 01/20/2009 all of a sudden our governmenrt started to live within the bounds of the Constitution? The government did not.
Who said anything about “some unelected, self-appointed militia leaders” doing anything? You are speaking of anarchy, when you speak like that. No one I know or am aware of is considering giving power to any “unelected, self-appointed militia leaders”. Everyone I know wants the people we elect to follow the Constitution. If they cannot do that, they will be replaced by elections.
I agree with you, I wish I and others were more outraged by the Patriot act. We were hoodwinked. I’m glad to see you were not. My outrage started with the bank bailouts by the Bush administraton, and continued with the Obama administration. The question “Where were (fill in the blank) during the Bush years” is a very tired line, used only to try to paint anyone who is unhappy with government usurpation as a hater and a racist. Please. Most Americans are much more complex and smarter than those who use that line give credit.
Since you were outraged by the Patriot Act then, I assume you are even more outraged now, and look forward to working with you, united to stop the infringement on God-given rights. Thank you.
on March 3rd, 2010 at 12:20 pm
“Thank you Mr. Potok. You speak, we grow.”
You just admitted that your Tea Party Terrorist Movement is a growing cancer on America, didn’t you?
on March 3rd, 2010 at 1:04 pm
“Yeah I’m still wondering where all that anger was when the government actually was violating constitutional rights on a regular basis.”
It is right now, today, every day.
I don’t remember any declaration of war, however we are running wars all over the world.
The repubs did it with Bush and the left is continuing with Obama.
The constitution is violated willingly on a daily basis.
These wars are just the most visible aspect.
That is why our government is no longer legitimate.
on March 3rd, 2010 at 3:08 pm
Jim, the recent bank bailouts were egregious indeed, but they were certainly not the first time the government handed tax dollars over to private corporations. Actually state support of capitalism has existed back to the very dawn of capitalism itself, but that’s another story. I realize that many people involved in the Tea Parties now may have had their grievances with the Bush regime, but the question is why weren’t they in the streets back then. That is the key issue here. That and why do many of them praise Sarah Palin when in fact Palin supported the bailout and defended it on national TV.
@Jack- Yes, a number of constitutional violations go on in the US, but the US still has some of the best-enforced constitutional rights in the world. This is why every time those rights are violated, there is such an outpouring of rage. If your constitutional rights are violated, groups like the ACLU will seek justice for you for free. I’ve been living in Russia for quite some time and here the constitutional rights are absolutely worthless.
As for the government’s legitimacy- legitimacy of a state is based largely on its ability to project force. The Tea Party movement will never achieve any kind of positive change because these people don’t understand how the government works. Many of them are protesting unwittingly for causes that actually benefit those same forces who keep our government in such a sorry state. For example, protesting against universal health care(even when the Dems weren’t even going to touch that with a ten foot pole).
on March 3rd, 2010 at 4:26 pm
I want to know if you people who insist that this government is illegitimate can do a better job. The lot of you have likely never attended college, or are/were employed in a job requiring a certain degree of responsibility.
No, not a single one of you speds could do a better job! As a matter of fact, human beings are not at all perfect. Nothing you do will ever satisfy the majority—or, in this case, an annoyingly loud and tragically useless minority.
Capitalism could have worked, but so could Communism. Socialism too. But the human race has an innate need for control; human greed dictates action. Whether it’s lust for money, power, or sexual control. And those with the least inclination for sanity and reason, like yourselves, will do anything—even kill—to gain this power.
I promise, if the reasonable masses capitulated and gave you teabaggers control of the government, you would do either the same thing (as the previous administration) or worse! I’m just glad that there’s an entire system in place to keep people like you from ever gaining power.
on March 3rd, 2010 at 6:00 pm
please point me to the location on this website of the groups that expressed virulent hatred of Bush and Cheney. I remember MOVEON.ORG wishing those two to die, calling them fascists and whatnot. Surely, SPLC documented all of that hate, right?
on March 3rd, 2010 at 7:45 pm
I swear everytime I read about the tea baggers I want a glass of tea.
Thanks to th SPLC for balancing out the hate of the supremists. I think the reason why not too much mention on the Islamic and muslims terriosts groups here in America is EVERYONE already knows there here for no other reason than to infiltrate. Yet the ones that are becoming just as if not more dangerous to our FREEDOM are the white supremists, Anglo Saxon Purists type of American Reniassance followers. They hold secret gatherings or change their locations which are inclusive of the Pure White for the Keeping American Purie White.
Invite Pure White/Pink Britian Racists(who by the way no one can even understand when they speak) to what looked for all the world like a dirty greasy spoon restaurant, bad acoustics with slamming dishes or something in the background. Not a very impressive goup of people in my opinion.
on March 3rd, 2010 at 8:41 pm
quit with your hate speech, you think you are better that conservatives, you are not. conservatives are people too. quit labeling people with your offensive terms. be tolerant of other peoples’ beliefs.
on March 4th, 2010 at 12:18 am
Hey Potok, you want some documented evidence of unbridled hate speech at protest rallies? Check this out:
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621
A long and disgusting list of protest signs that all said “Kill Bush”. The worst one was the cartoon drawing of President Bush’s severed head being held up like a trophy. Were you speaking out against this hate?
And since you have chosen to slander Glenn Beck, it’s time you check some real examples of “hate radio”: “Republicans should lined up and shot…Matt Drudge should be hung by his entrails…Rush Limbaugh should choke on his own throat fat…Glenn Back should kill himself on live TV…the founder of the Blogs For Bush website should get the crap beaten out of him…” – These are the insane rantings of left-wing talker Mike Malloy. Have you added him to your hatewatch Site? Have you?
on March 4th, 2010 at 12:56 am
Hey Dillon, can you provide some evidence from Google cache perhaps, where Moveon.org wished death on Bush and Cheney? My money is on no.
More proof that conservatives live in fantasy land.
on March 4th, 2010 at 6:24 am
daemonesslisa,
You question the sanity of people who want to protect their God given rights? How about people who rail against human need for power, and the same paragraph, espouse the worthiness of socialism and communism?
Where do you get your news? You repeat the same elitist diatribe. All who disagree with you are uneducated. All who disagree with you are irresponsible. All who disagree with you are teabaggesrs, or now speds, or some other derogatory name.
Responsible people want less government.
I will take the liberty to interpret Jack’s comment on government legitimacy for those of you who are too well educated to understand it. I believe Jack means the federal government of today (the modern era) is not operating within the framework of our Constitution. Regardless of what your college professors taught you, and what your newspaper teaches you, the Constitution is not a living document that can be interpreted as those in power please. It’s purpose is exactly opposite. As Mr. Jefferson said, to bind down the government. Any lawyer, constitutional or not, who will honor his oath, will tell you the same.
The legitimacy of a government in America is not based on force. Not in America. It is based on the rule of law. The supreme law in America is the Constitution. Government legitimacy in America is based on following, or not following the Constitution. It has sadly been many generations since our Constitution has been followed strictly. Following the Constitution protects people’s rights.
on March 4th, 2010 at 9:24 am
OK, so, when a anti-war, pro-illegal immigration, anti-american leftist hate groups (MOVEON.ORG, ANSWER, CODEPINK, BLACK PANTHERS) gets together they aren’t extremists and yet Tea Party people, anti-illegal, pro-American group, pro-Constitution groups do they are extremists. OK, gotcha. I must’ve missed that class in college on leftist hypocrisy.
For the record, the actual beginnings of the movement began back in 2008 while Bush was running things and lo and behold, yes, we protested and complained about it. We complained when it came to light that lo and behold, republicans tried to stop the real estate meltdown that caused this mess but look, guys like Barney Frank said, hey, no problems here. The SPLC is nothing but a leftist, Soros funded group posing as a non-partisan, unbiased special interest group. Notice that the dismissal of the charges against the Black Panthers from back at the elections where they intimidated voters came through via the AG. Keep moving folks, nothing to see here except racism from the left.
on March 4th, 2010 at 10:07 am
Ruslan,
You hit the nail on the head! Awesome!
(chorus – “go Ruslan, go Ruslan”)
on March 4th, 2010 at 10:10 am
Hey Ruslan, Potoc lets see the leader of a Tea Party movement wishing death on Obama, you don’t just like you wont see the leader of MOVEON or CODEPINK, but the supporters who are not accountable of groups like MOVEON.ORG and CODEPINK, how about all those anti-war supporters signs that wished death on Cheney and Bush. How about all the hate posts on DailyKOS and Huffington wishing death on Tony Snow. How about CODEPINK calling our all our Marines assassins, murderers. That’s right, leftists can’t be bigots or hate filled it’s only people on the right. You might want to make a note to Hillary supporters who started the Obama birther movement.
on March 4th, 2010 at 10:24 am
I’m sorry Jim but the Constitution WAS intended to be a living document, and it’s a good thing too- especially for black folks and women. Don’t believe me? Here’s what Thomas Jefferson had to say on the subject:
“I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.”
If your rights were truly “God given”, then why did it take so long for a group of men to figure that out and codify them on paper? Rights are a concept devised by mankind, and defended by people. When your constitutional rights are violated- do you pray to God to strike down the offenders? I’d recommend the ACLU.
Now on the topic of “less government”, how exactly do you measure that? How is government somehow more evil than unrestrained corporate dominance- seeing as how at the very least the government consists of many elected officials, and is bound by the Constitution? Corporations have virtually no responsibility to follow the Constitution-their sole responsibility is to their shareholders.
If you don’t like the presense of government, there’s a wonderful country called Somalia where you can move.
on March 4th, 2010 at 10:29 am
Scott, aside from the fact that in comparison to right-wingers, who talk death and destruction virtually every day, not only were those protestors a minority in a very large movement made up of mostly pacifists, but in the “left” there is far more debate and self-criticism of this kind of behavior.
Far more importantly, compare the number of right-wing domestic terrorist attacks in the last 20 years with left-wing ones. Notice anything?
on March 4th, 2010 at 11:05 am
Maybe the SPLC needs to look out at UC Berkely at the student led riots as a component of extremism. Left wing student groups are allowed to riot and burn things up and not be called extremists and yet, peaceful tea party groups are extremists. Yea, no hypocrisy there.
on March 4th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
Ruslan,
Thank you for the Jefferson quote. I agree, the constitution may be changed, so perhaps my words were less then precise. Our founders left a way to change the constitution, and that is of what Mr. Jefferson spoke. Here is the Jefferson quote to which I referred:
“The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.”
I agree, if the people want big government to take care of all aspects of their life, they may have that, if they amend the Constitution to allow it. But until that happens, the Constitution, as written, should be followed.
Are you adopting the “My Country, Love it or leave it” approach the left used to loath? My how things change. I never said I want no government, in fact I said the pposite. I want government that is within the bounds of the Constitution. That is what I mean by less government.
I assume you are quite happy with the American Government. I read above you currently live in Russia. Assuming you are am American citizen, we can both have what we want. Please fight to have the Constitution amended to add all the unconstitutional aspects of our government. That way you get what you want, and I get what I want: A government that lives within the bounds of the Constitution.
Jim
on March 4th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
“These are the insane rantings of left-wing talker Mike Malloy. Have you added him to your hatewatch Site? Have you?”
What about Michael Savage, the neo-Nazi in San Francisco who endorses Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church, with a daily audience of 10 million saying that Malia Obama is a “ghetto slut” and that Barack Obama is a Nazi dictator from Kenya? Why aren’t you complaining about Savage? Because when he screams his hate, it’s “freedom of speech”.
on March 4th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
“As for the government’s legitimacy- legitimacy of a state is based largely on its ability to project force.”
Bull! Using that metric ANY horrible corrupt gov can be justified.
If a government governs without the consent of its people and violates its own charter documents it is illegitimate, period.
But, you are the typical lefty who sounds just like Mao, the old power comes from the barrel of a gun platform.
That is what you’re saying, as long as a gov can keep power it is legitimate.
Disgusting.
“I’m sorry Jim but the Constitution WAS intended to be a living document,”
Not in the way you claim.
The mechanism for amendment was made to be a tough process so that it would be by consent of a majority of the states and people.
Twisting it into contortions using the courts and outright violation is NOT what any of our founding fathers intended.
on March 4th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
Jim, not only do I question the sanity of people who want their “god-given rights” protected, I question the sanity of ANYONE who believes in The Invisible Man That Lives In The Sky. If you’re among them, that’s your problem, not mine.
I’ll explain in a little more detail so that you get it. Yes, communism could have worked. Yes, socialism could have worked. Yes, even capitalism could have worked. The reason that communism failed in Russia—where it instead works in Cuba under Castro—was because Stalin was a man, a human; he got greedy. The reason that capitalism fails in this country is because of corporatism: major conglomerates take over small businesses and price stocks so that regular people can’t buy them, and then they outsource the jobs so regular people can’t work. And in case you need yet another history lesson, socialism failed in Germany because it wasn’t socialism! That was fascism disguised as socialism, which is what happens when people are not educated.
The news media is trying to disguise socialism as fascism so that they continue to benefit from corporatism! Understand?
on March 4th, 2010 at 2:54 pm
You are so phony, it’s incredible. Get a life!
on March 4th, 2010 at 3:09 pm
Sorry folks but Constitutions are written by men, and they are backed up by force. Like I said before, it’s a damn good thing they did change the Constitution because otherwise black people could still be property.
on March 4th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
I love how Rory brings up riots that happened 50 years ago at the height of the Vietnam war and social unrest at home.
Just like he brings up Margaret Sanger to bash the left in another topic on this site. She died over 40 years ago.
These are not Rory’s original thoughts either, they’re both talking points he cut and pasted from his favorite Reich Wingnut website.
This is called “projection”. When the other side accuses your side of doing somethign wrong, don’t deny or admit it, just accuse their side of doing the same thing, even if it is a total lie and you know it. This deflects the charge against your side and weakens it.
Then Jack tries a bit of historical revisionism, another lying Reich Wingnut propaganda tactic, to claim the Teabaggers were against Dubya!!
This is an absolute LIE. The Teabaggers and their PAC are funded by the GOP. That is well documented.
These Teabaggers were all Dubyalovers and they all held up W signs and chanted “Four More Years” while Dubya took away their rights and set up a torture gulag.
Thanks for showing us what a bunch of propaganda LIARS your side are, Rory and Jack.
on March 4th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
This report is nothing more than fear mongering from the liberal left. I am a democrat and I am a conservative, and I am afraid of anything being reported by SPLC.
on March 4th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
This report is nothing more than fear mongering from the liberal left. I am a democrat and I am a conservative, and I am NOT (correction from previous posting) afraid of anything being reported by SPLC.
on March 4th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
The Tea Party movement is a creation of Fox News and will never go beyond a curiosity in American politics. This is the same network that daily posts photo-shopped images of our President in the most base distortions of public perception. I don’t think it is unpatriotic in the least to be unhappy with Obama. I was outraged by George W Bush, and would defend anyone who has a legitimate message of peaceful dissent. But when a media network has gone so far from its purported “fair and balanced” guidelines, to the point that the idea is not to inform the American public, but to feed political polarization and simply to convince whoever will listen that there is an Islamo-Bolshevik plot with Obama at its center, I think it is time to shut off the television and go out for some fresh air. Can the Tea Party be so bereft of ideas that all it can come up with are derogatory images of the President? Who can rightfully state that a political movement aimed at tearing down the duly elected leader of our country is anything but antithetic to democracy?
on March 4th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
“Yes, communism could have worked. Yes, socialism could have worked.”
No they can’t, they are based on fallacies that ignore human nature.
They have never worked and will never work.
“where it instead works in Cuba under Castro”
You’re nuts.
Talk about being uneducated.
on March 4th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
Jack, Yes I agree with you. As I told Ruslan, it can be changed, and should be changd, by Amendments only.
on March 4th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
I gently suggest that people who believe that a Holocaust cannot happen in this country do a bit of studying on something called “The Trail of Tears”.
Read about it with an open mind and imagine what it’s like to be a little boy in the early 1960′s watching TV and seeing John Wayne movies.
Oh boy, it CAN happen here, it HAS happened here. There are plenty of people who most folks think are Latino who are not but don’t want to explain to some ignorant person (from the Right OR Left) what it’s like to have a history of being herded into camps and basically being 2nd class citizens ever since there WAS an America.
That little kid always thinks he’s from Mars or something. He’s excluded or hated for being “different”. Because no matter how hard he tries, he has that secret. And then there are people who think they are respecting you because they treat you like you ARE from MARS and take pictures of your home & want to take pictures of your grand mother. Like they are filming “Wild Kingdom” or some shit. That why a lot of people don’t even mention their background. They even come to hate it because your background is always the “bad guys” or the “special people”. You can’t even fit in where everyone wear green because people call you Chief or some shit. And eventually you move away from your background. You talk about it with others who are like you. I’ll bet that how Jewish people feel and why some Jewish people so all sorts of things to “fit in”. And why some Jews hate Jews.
I once read something I’ll never forget:. that MOST Jewish people are either agnostic or atheistic!
I don’t doubt it at all. How many Black women do all sorts of stuff to straighten their hair? Like the ideal of feminine beauty is a woman with straight hair and a sharp pointy nose.
I understand much more now that I’m a lot older and look back while I watch America unfold IT’S history. It’s a melting pot that has compartments. It’s a brick of clay that is made with sand and water from many places all in one rectangle. It’s a garden but instead of one made by the wind and rain, it’s made by someone who tries to order all the flowers here and all the cactus there; putting “order” into something that doesn’t need interference & meddling. Like naming plants and animals; we have one name for science, one name for common speech, one name for those who are loved, one name for those that are feared, one name for the wild, & one for the domesticated. It’s very confusing for an adult; it must be ridiculous for a child.
on March 4th, 2010 at 11:17 pm
I’m glad the SPLC exists, for they keep tabs on the fascists! However, they consider non-white militant groups such as the Fruit of Islam and the New Black Panther Party to be just as dangerous as white fascist groups. People cannot equate oppressed people with the oppressors. White fascists, though many being working class (and exploited as such) and middle class themselves, represent bourgeois oppression while non- whitemilitants fight in the interests of all oppressed people.
on March 5th, 2010 at 8:29 am
“No they can’t, they are based on fallacies that ignore human nature.
They have never worked and will never work.”
Jack, that is a fallacy in itself, appeal to nature. There is no such thing as constant human nature. Human nature and values have changed radically over time.
on March 5th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
Is all this mess a sign of the ” Decline and Subsequent Fall of America”? Is it [illegal] against Federal and State law to form a civilian paramilitary militia? If so, then, will someone explain why the government allow the criminals to exist?
on March 5th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
I believe the American government [along with organizations like SPLC] should take a more active role in exposing the extremist threat to its citizens; especially, those who may be the target of a particular HATE group.
on March 5th, 2010 at 12:40 pm
They had a popular saying in old communist Russia, “We will keep pretending to work as long as they keep pretending to pay us.”
You are not going to be able to make people work for the unjustified benefit of others except through force and even then, it has a built-in flaw that will topple it eventually.
This has been true as long as man has been around.
It is an innate part of human nature and it’s not going away.
We know we are entitled to the fruits of our own labor.
on March 5th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
@Jack
If you think that communism and socialism are based on fallacies of human nature, it should be no trouble for you to enlarge on these views and explain exactly what the fallacies are.
I have a feeling you cannot do so, without looking for some other source to quote, because what you say is merely a repeat of the same old jingoistic fantasies of the ignorant American.
It’s easy to make sweeping generalizations about political systems, but it is difficult to construct a reasoned argument as to why you believe socialism and communism are fallacies of human nature, or even more likely to fail vis-a-vis these human frailties than the liberal capitalistic state. Look what is going on around you. America is not well.
The classics provide some insight.
Socrates, for example, was highly critical of democracy. He argued that it would lead to the institutionalization of the vices of the many. Look around you. Was he wrong? He also pointed out that democracy would not permit valid ideas to surface if they went against the prevailing view — this is because people don’t like to have their ideas tested in argument, and will always take some form of action against the so-called “democratic” excercise of dissent. The right wing extremists are at that point, being no longer able to handle the responsibility of being members of a free society governed by the will of the majority, and instead have chosen the path of intolerance, revanche, and tyranny.
When you are repudiating socialism and communism, I suppose you are talking about the abuses of organization under Stalin, or the Cultural Revolution under Mao. That had nothing to do with Marx, who first postulated the proletarian revolution and the material dialectic, and really has nothing to do with communism at all, but about totalitarianism. Nor did it have much to do with the founding principles of socialist thought.
St Simon referred to socialism in the following way: to each according to his needs, and from each according to his abilities. What is so frightening about that? Is that a call to arms? Everywhere else in the world but the United States, socialism is understood to mean social consciousness and awareness of the needs of the group in terms of sustainability, and carries a positive, not negative connotation. Your kneejerk reaction to the word “socialism” is a perfect indication of your birthplace, though you little realize it.
Aristotle in “Politics” argued that democracy only has any worth if it is used to analyze the good and evil of its constituencies. You seem to think that when a number of intellectuals here point out some of the errors of our democracy, that we are simply being un-democratic, but our criticisms are vital to democracy.
Simple disagreement is the soul of democracy. The idea is to debate these things and to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong, with certain unalienable rights as our basic guidelines. Ruslan is correct in virtually everything he has said. It is an error to base an argument in mere negation of another person’s views, without providing a better solution in their place.
As you have failed to do so, it can be affirmed that Ruslan has beaten you in this debate.
on March 5th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
It amazes me to see some many buying the premise of the article, that somehow we the militia’s of the States our the problem.
Then I keep hearing this arguement that somehow we were not vocal during the Bush years. We were always speaking out. But with the Media being controlled by either the left or the right, we were not given anytime on the news. It only now has become a story, why? Because the left is in control to thre government, and they need an enemy. So now we are news worthy again. Most of us have been here since before the 90′s. We tolerated the lies about we were somehow connected to OKC bombing and other things. But we are not extremist as the left likes to call us. The right likes to say we are just lone nuts. As all of you can see we are many.
I would like to know since when did believing in the Constitution and what the founders stood for make someone an extremist? Since when did someone like the oathkeepers become an extremist group. They are former and present law enforcement and military, who have take an oath to keep the oath they took when they join their service. You remember don’t you “To protect and defend the Constitution”. That’s what they stand for. They will not do anything to the people that violated that oath. What is wrong with that?
I am a militia man proud of too. I believe in the founders ideas and the Constitutional republic that gave us. I know that the militia is just every able bodied man between 17-45 years of age in that state. It is not the National Guard which is more under the control of the Federal government then the States as it should be. We are an union, a Constitutional republic made up of 50 separate States. IT is an unque situation that many of our young people are not taught and do not understand.
So we wish that our Constitutional Republic continue as it was founded. That’s what we in the militia stand for.
Greywolf
47 wolf pack militia
New Mexico
on March 5th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
“to each according to his needs, and from each according to his abilities.”
It’s not scary, it’s just stupid.
It translates to someone working for the benefit of others.
It has been tried all over the world and fails miserably because it ignores the fact that humans, by their very nature, do not wish to work hard for the benefit of others.
Ruslan and yourself are off in liberal idealogue land where the innate and blindingly obvious is denied.
“America is not well.”
Very true, and the reason for that is the population falling for and accepting unconstitutional government and the encroachment on our freedoms by those on the left.
“Ruslan is correct in virtually everything he has said.”
Ruslan is at heart a fascist at best who believes legitimate government is any government that can maintain power.
Anyone that falls for Ruslan’s line is pitiful.
on March 5th, 2010 at 5:14 pm
“while non- whitemilitants fight in the interests of all oppressed people.”
Balderdash. They fight for their own racial and group interests.
I might believe you when I hear about the Black Panthers fighting for white wage slaves or Calypso Louie fighting for Jewish shopkeepers.
on March 6th, 2010 at 7:44 am
Militias are not “every able-bodied man in the state”.
Militias are overweight drunken white trash whackos playing with guns and spewing racist hate.
Immature boys with their toys.
on March 6th, 2010 at 7:59 am
Jack complains of unconstitutional government by the left.
Who pushed the Patriot Act?
Dubya did.
Who started a torture gulag?
Dubya did.
Who okayed warrantless searches and wiretaps?
Dubya did.
Who lied to Congress 900 times so he could invade the wrong country?
Dubya did.
Who made it much easier for any President to unilaterally declare martial law and overthrow the Constitution itself?
Dubya did.
Jack, you have blinders on.
Jack, stop complaining about the cinder in Obama’s eye when you have a Yule Log in yours.
That’s why you Teabaggers have no credibility. You complain about Obama doing stuff but ignore Dubya doing stuff that was much, much worse.
That, and the fact that is very difficult to appear credible when you have huevos on your face.
on March 6th, 2010 at 8:05 am
“The question “Where were (fill in the blank) during the Bush years” is a very tired line”
No, it’s legitimate. And it never gets tired.
Anyone complaining that Obama is violating the Constitution but was a Dubya suppoter for 8 years is a raving hypocrite with a full-blown case of cognitive dissonance. They’re crazy.
on March 6th, 2010 at 9:45 am
“to each according to his needs, and from each according to his abilities.”
It’s not scary, it’s just stupid.
It translates to someone working for the benefit of others.”
Is English not your first language? Because FROM each according to his ABILITIES to each according to his NEEDS means anything but that bizarre interpretation you offer.
The fact is- if you work, you ARE working for the benefit of others, the difference being that you are sharing a hell of a lot more with him. On that note I should point out that this line describes Communist mode of production, not socialist mode of production, which Marx defined as “from each according to his abilities, to each according to his WORK.” In other words, the more you put into society, the more you get out. In capitalist society, the richest people work the least, if at all.
“It has been tried all over the world and fails miserably because it ignores the fact that humans, by their very nature, do not wish to work hard for the benefit of others.”
Uh huh- so parents abandon their children, policemen and firemen don’t work, ad infinitum. “Human nature” is a logical fallacy,
“Ruslan and yourself are off in liberal idealogue land where the innate and blindingly obvious is denied.”
First of all I am a Communist and what is “blindingly obvious” to me is that you know little about history or politics.
“Ruslan is at heart a fascist at best who believes legitimate government is any government that can maintain power.”
Oh so now I’m a fascist. Sounds like another right-winger educated by an ex-DJ named Glenn Beck.
BTW, it is clear you know nothing of the original Black Panthers either, seeing as how they openly rejected black nationalism.
on March 6th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
“It’s not scary, it’s just stupid.
It translates to someone working for the benefit of others.
It has been tried all over the world and fails miserably because it ignores the fact that humans, by their very nature, do not wish to work hard for the benefit of others.”
Presuming your comment to be accurate, that by our very nature we don’t work for the benefit of others, I have a hard time believing that any of us are actually alive. Why do parents have children? Why do parents feed their children, and why would a woman be willing to give up her chances at job progression to have children with a man when it has been demonstrated that childless women often advance further and faster in their careers?
From a rational persepctive the amount of money you need to invest to raise a child, to feed, educate, cloth and nurture that child, is enormous; not to mention the sacrifice of free time and luxuries. The same amount of money invested or saved would likely be more than enough to carry your average single individual through their old age. And yet I think its safe to say its “human nature” for people to have children and raise them to the best of their ability. Certainly I cannot point to any successful society where individuals do not breed.
Your claim that humans, by their very nature, do not wish to work to help others ignores the fact that across the world and throughout history people have in fact done just that. But why examine the long history of humans attempting to help each other when you can dismiss as naive the morals of most religions as well as those of philosophers and social thinkers like Marx or C. Wright Mills? After all, you know that You don’t like helping others and you know that You’re entitled to what you have, right? It must therefore be human nature.
But the most important falacy in your statement is that it fails to match not only the experiences of humans living in modern societies, but what anthropologists have observed in hunter-gatherer societies worldwide and what historians have been able to piece together of early human societies.
(You know, the period of human history when we were, so to speak, closer to nature) The findings are intriguing. It turns out that hunter-gatherer socieites are not based around property ownership, personal advancement, or wealth. The concept of private property doesn’t even exist.
So while I’m sure there are plenty of arguements in favour of libertarian or capitalist organizations of society, you aren’t making them, and broad claims that humans are by nature selfish ignore the fact that humans equally display natural tendancies toward empathy. On top of that you ignore the completely artificial nature of our concept of property. It is not Ruslan’s line that is pitiful, it is the lack of any response beyond claiming that your views should be self-evident because you have human nature on your side.
on March 7th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
Excellent comments on this post. Now that we have addressed the ignorance of the reactionary mindset regarding socialism, perhaps we should look deeper into its root causes.
Marx took ordinary, tried-and-true principles of social science to explain what has been plaguing humanity for eons. One of the most critical methods he used was the dialectic, borrowing from Hegel and “turning the Hegelian dialectic on its head” (or better, righting Hegel to his feet) by illustrating that the ideal is nothing more than the materal world reflected by the human mind. While certainly revolutionary in praxis, which is how these ideals manifest themselves, I see nothing particularly troublesome about it. So why does American equate Marx with evil?
All this worry about an ideal of socialism, which is considered a malady in America (bringing about such horrors as the weekend and public education), belies the simple context of what socialism is and means in a material sense. I personally prefer to term the concept “solidarity economy”, or “cooperativism”, but don’t want to get bogged down in terms that probably are not well understood to most Americans and will generate only more ire and repudium. I also think liberation theology has been poorly mined for value in American philosophy as well, but that will have to wait for another time.
We must look deeper into this to understand where these perceptions come from. Perhaps I am inviting chaos by suggesting that even the militia, in its true sense of concerned citizens banding together for their common interests during the American revolution, are something of a socialist phenomenon. It was a largely volunteer effort historically (and perhaps is today, but who can say with any certainty what goes on in these shadowy organizations). Its needs and abilities equation works out just as well as in any other form of social organization. So why not call militias socialist? For that matter the entire American revolution was from each according to abilities, and to each according to necessity.
This is a complex subject but I tend to think the true opposition to socialism in America is taxation. Eventually taxes reduce the rate at which the capitalist can accumulate enough wealth to avoid having to work. Of course, it can be argued that the Cold War itself (as an ideal) was an instrument to convince America of the virtues of taxation, as part of the process of building up an ideological enemy to justify policies that would have been incomprehensible otherwise. The capitalistic state has an insatiable desire to accumulate wealth. For centuries this took the form of precious metals, taken by hook or by crook, opium or slavery or trickery or gunboat diplomacy. When that system collapsed, only labor (and goods produced by labor) could be taxed to feed the state. How do you justify it? You must create an ideological enemy. Otherwise the state may cease to exist.
True, European socialism has its own contentions, in my opinion relating to the questioning of physiocracy to yield its greater truths. If one decides that all wealth of nations comes from the land, and that people were to be governed by consent, then one solution would be to share the land and its wealth with everyone. This of course is problematic for the landowner, who has chattel to do the work, suddenly faced with the prospect that he can claim no ownership over a section of the planet which last time I checked was approximately round and had only one human population, that predates and outlives any of us. It’s good if you are in the majority of poor, and bad if you are in the minority of rich.
But the real bugaboo in America is the creation of an ideological enemy, which was vitally necessary to help explain the kinds of incomprehensible destruction of two world wars, atrocity (Hiroshima or Auschwitz), and the ability to crack the planet in half with nuclear weapons, over which the ordinary citizen had no say. The perception that a democratic people were no longer in control of their lives had to be countered by creating a red scare, one that would control their lives if allowed to do so by patriotic American taxpayers.
on March 8th, 2010 at 3:19 am
Conservatism+religious hypocrisy+facism+nationalism+warmongering+fearmongering=Everything in the Republican party that has led to all the problems in this country.
on March 8th, 2010 at 10:49 am
Just as an afterthought: in most places the term “individualist” is as much of a perjorative as the term “socialist” is in America.
To be an individualist connotes selfishness, egotism, and unwillingness to cooperate. Yet in America, these characteristics are seen as virtues.
Is there any wonder why our nation is grinding to a halt due to political deadlock, and why our system of democracy is weaker every day? I think the convenience of modern American life has dispensed with the idea that the group has any value at all.
on March 8th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Ruslan:
““Ruslan is at heart a fascist at best who believes legitimate government is any government that can maintain power.”
Oh so now I’m a fascist. Sounds like another right-winger educated by an ex-DJ named Glenn Beck.”
YOU are the one that argued a government derives it’s legitimacy from projection of power, not from consent of the governed.
“First of all I am a Communist…”
At least you admit it, but how sad.
Another dupe.
Snorlax:
You make the age old internet forum mistake of believing that somehow all of your idealogical or political enemies are Bush supporters.
News flash for ya, I didn’t support or vote for either Bush OR Obama.
Sorry, try again.
Beholder:
“So why does American equate Marx with evil?”
Because evil is what his proponents end up saddling our world with.
R Lavigueur:
“The concept of private property doesn’t even exist.”
What a load of bunk, just like the age old myth that somehow American Indians didn’t understand or follow the concept of private ownership.
Born out of Rousseau’s parlor primitivism.
I can’t believe people still fall for that garbage.
Communism and socialism guarantee misery for all.
Capitalism provides a high standard of living for most.
on March 9th, 2010 at 1:05 am
Funny how a “Patriot” or “Militia” group is automatically labeled as anti-government, or racists. I’m a black american and I am a current member of several these groups. I even have administrative control with some of them. Members that do sign up with racists or gov overthrow speech are banned immediately because it is not tolerated. That includes the militia groups. Maybe you should read the TOS of these groups and read their posts before you put all groups in a bubble? It’s publications like this keep folks mis-informed and ignorant of the facts.
on March 9th, 2010 at 10:13 am
Actually Jack, most of the world is capitalist, and most of the world lives in poverty. What does that tell you about capitalism? There is a simple rule under capitalism that for a few to win, many must lose. As it is within one nation, so it is with the entire world. All those consumer goods you enjoy had to be built by people who are desperately poor, in order to satisfy the profit needs of the corporations who ordered them. You’re just lashing out at me because your fallacious human nature argument got shot to pieces by several posters. Better luck next time.
@CEM Ok so you’re black- did you know that in the Third Reich there were an estimated 600,000 soldiers with Jewish heritage, one of whom once posed as a model of the “ideal Aryan” soldier? Field Marshal Erich von Mannstein told several people that he was half-Jewish. In addition to this, the Nazis also built military units out of Russians, Caucasians, Turks, etc.against their usual racial propaganda. Why? Because they needed them. Would you say that the Third Reich wasn’t racist?
on March 9th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Really Ruslan?
Then, pray tell why does even the poorest American have an income and standard of living that far outstrips all those nations?
All these other nations you cite are not capitalists and they are not free republics.
“You’re just lashing out at me because your fallacious human nature argument got shot to pieces by several posters.”
Please spare me, leave it to a communist to deny the bleedingly obvious.
We can ignore all the blather about it and just look at results.
Communism produces nothing but garbage. Always has always will.
It is based on bogus ideas like the labor theory of value.
If you like communism so much why don’t you move to Cuba?
on March 9th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
“Because evil is what his proponents end up saddling our world with.”
Jack said,
on March 8th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
———–
So according to your view of the world, evil never existed in the political realm anywhere in the world before Marx wrote Capital? Nuts.
on March 9th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
@ Ruslan, well said, and to that point, were the conscripts in the Nazi war machine supposed to consider themselves evil? What about the 14 year old boys sent to the front? For that matter if you take any criminal and say, are you evil, will he say “oh sure, I’m as evil as they come!”, or will he say “No, of course not, I’m a good person, I just did something wrong and people paint me out to be this monster that I’m not.” All of Jack’s talk of evil is ideological. Let’s look at the material reality of having a gun pointed at you and being told go to the front or be shot. Evil is a myth. I am not saying there is not right and wrong, but those values have to be tested in material truth.
on March 9th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
@jack
I also think you are lashing out at Ruslan our of wounded pride. He simply constructed a better argument, there was nothing degrading about it. He just happens to be right. Trying now to poison the well by referrring to his political views is simply another fallacy that wasn’t even very effective when McCarthy tried it, and you sir are no McCarthy. Are you saying that all Communists are all wrong about all things, as a function of being Communists? If a Communist states a fact should we question that fact simply because it was a Communist who brought it to our attention? If someone against Communism states an opinion, should we accept that opinion by virtue of the person begin against Communism? These things make no sense, surely you can see that even through the veil of anger and pride that blinds you to Ruslan’s compelling reasons for believing what he believes. Why treat him as a foe? What fear have you of him, if not that he proved you wrong? Your arguments have long since been left behind and are flapping like a scrap of old tire on the roadside of this debate. I suggest a pit stop, have a cheeseburger, watch NASCAR, but leave Ruslan alone.
on March 9th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
“If a Communist states a fact should we question that fact simply because it was a Communist who brought it to our attention?”
100%
Communists believe in silliness like the labor theory of value so anything they say should be subject to the most rigorous testing.
He proves no one wrong, unless you can win an argument by denying the obvious.
Tailgunner Joe was only so-so at fighting communists.
We need to bring back HUAC!
on March 9th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
Jack,
I expected that response. The idea that American natives were primitive hunter gatherers is plenty racist in and of itself; most of your country had well developed civilizations which had concepts such as spirituality, slavery, war, and yes, property, well before Europeans ever decided to cross the Atlantic. The fact that you do not know what hunter gatherer societies are does not change the way that they opperate. But don’t take my word for it and especially don’t take an 18th century philosopher’s word for it since I suggest nothing of the sort, ask anthropologists who actually study what few such societies remain or historians who study the archeological record.
As for capitalism and its successes, you’ll notice that the United States, while enjoying a high quality of life, has exported most of its production to China, Indonesia, Mexico and other such nations. It is the lucky people in those countries that get to labour in horrific conditions so that you can buy cheap market goods at places like WalMart. Or did you notice how few of the “made in” labels on products ranging from clothing to electronics are made in countries you would consider to be wealthy and capitalist? If you’re using a laptop, take a look at its battery. What country made it? Was it the United States?
What are located in “western” countries are the head offices of the major corporations which actually own (or more often contract) the factories making the flood of products that we take for granted. China is one of those countries, and its huge role as an exporter in global capitalism leaves it approximately as communist as the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is democratic. The fact of the matter is, in a globalised world, the economic system of one country cannot be separated from that of others. Or do you think that perhaps the purchasing power and supposed wealth of capitalist Americans wouldn’t be impacted if they had to buy things made in the United States by workers who are paid more than 6 cents or so an hour?
on March 9th, 2010 at 7:42 pm
Your showing your ignorance Snorlax… The exact definition of the militia is every abled bodied man between 17 and 45 years of age. The only one of us two showing any hate is you Sir. I believe in the Constitution and could care less the color or faith of the man or woman beside me in the battle for this country.
If you believe in the founders concept of a Constitutional Republic. I and most of us militia men are on your side.
If you believe in majority rules, social redistribution, solialism. we are not going to help you. You see majority rules equals Mob rule and is why the founders gave us a Constitutional Republic. To protect the little states and individual ideas. I don’t care what color you are, I care about the Constitution Period.
You came out with the White Trash remark. Thus showing once again how, some preach tolerance, yet use hate to demonize people who disagree with them. Is this part of Solinski rules? You know isolate, freeze, demonize.
You can say how your wishing to bring everyone together, yet we are the ones who ask that every abled bodied man between 17-45 years old join us and restore the republic.
This is all of our country,but there is rules, now days too many rules, but the basic concept was.. Do what you want as long as it doesn’t violate the Constution or someone elses rights. Rights given by God not government. Government has no power but what the people give it. I don’t hate the government. I just think it should be so small not to interfere with your life or the States independence. You see the founders intended for the states and people to have the power over the Federal government to a degree. They expected the people to vote on what the states did with their feet. In other words, If your state does something you don’t like and you can’t change it through the ballot. Move to a state that is more to your liking.
So those of you who believe everything the media says …believe we are racist… Anyone who attend most militia meetings realize, we just care about the country we leave
our kids and your kids.
Greywolf
47 Wolfpack Militia
on March 9th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
to add to the above post. I said Solinski, I meant to say saul alinski.. I would suggest you quit listening to the 1960′s radicals in the colleges and other left wing groups and at least read the words of the founders..
on March 9th, 2010 at 8:24 pm
And one more thing there, snorlax….. I am well over 6′ about 200 pounds, Not an ounce of fat on this trash as you called me. I don’t drink or drug at all. I am a Veteran, who served this country. I am in the same physical shape as I was during my service. So save the insults, because you have no clue what your talking about. It just shows your lack of an argument.
on March 10th, 2010 at 12:31 am
“Really Ruslan?
Then, pray tell why does even the poorest American have an income and standard of living that far outstrips all those nations?”
If you are referring to the socialist camp, the poorest American’s standard of living didn’t outstrip that of say, a citizen of the Soviet Union. Soviet citizens had access to free education, health care, and various cultural and recreational facilities- the poorest Americans don’t.
“All these other nations you cite are not capitalists and they are not free republics.”
Sorry but they are capitalist and being capitalist has nothing to do with being a “free republic”. Capitalism is an economic system that originated in England at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution. It’s unique features helped the advancement of the liberal democratic style of government but as history shows the governmental system is irrelevant.
Many of those countries CAN’T become “free republics” because the US and the other big capitalist interests use economic and military power to install or prop up corrupt dictatorships, such as in Indonesia. Were there to be a democratic government there, said government would not allow multi-national corporations to rape their nation as they have currently done dating back to the overthrow of Sukarno.
So like I said, for a few countries to be “free” many must be slaves.
“Please spare me, leave it to a communist to deny the bleedingly obvious. ”
Oh you mean like how people don’t work for the benefit of others? That was hilarious.
“We can ignore all the blather about it and just look at results.
Communism produces nothing but garbage. Always has always will.”
Yes lets look at the results. I have been living in Russia for several years, and have traveled around Eastern Europe extensively. I have seen the results of post 89-91 capitalism, and thanks to my connections and years of study I am also familiar with the standards of living prior to those years, as well as prior to the revolution. What all this data shows, and what an increasing number of Eastern Europeans have been saying in numerous surveys(as taken by the Wall Street Journal ,AFP, and others)- They had it better under socialism, even the corrupt regimes of the post 1956 era. The fact that so many Eastern Europeans still continue to flood out of their “free countries” in droves despite massive investments in the 90s is also testament to the fact that they had it better under socialism.
Oh but of course you know their history better than them, because you’re American.
“It is based on bogus ideas like the labor theory of value.”
I wasn’t aware that the labor theory of value was “bogus”. It has in fact been successfully defended today.
“If you like communism so much why don’t you move to Cuba?”
Cuba already is socialist.
on March 10th, 2010 at 9:26 am
The problem with Jack is basic historical, political, economic ignorance which has been peddled by the US media and educational system for decades. People simply do not know how the economic system works, much less anything about Marxist economics, because all discourse in America is reduced to vague words like “big/small government”, “freedom”, “liberty”, and “free market.” Add to that the ever present myth of constant human nature.
Honestly, if capitalism is just a matter of human nature why did it take mankind thousands of years to develop capitalism? Virtually all the individual elements that make up a capitalist system have at one time or another existed throughout history- yet only in the midst of the Industrial Revolution did these components meld together into the system we know as capitalism.
Words like socialism, fascism, and so on have actual concrete definitions rooted in history and volumes of theory and academic study. You don’t just get to arbitrarily pick out some commonalities or use some vague yardstick like “the government controlled everything” so you can equate the two. By that yardstick one may say, and in fact some did say, that the US under FDR was fascist(in an economic sense there was some truth to this but Fascism has an ideological/social component as well, which was notably absent). Words…mean…things.
@Greywolf
Look man, there is no nice way I can say this, but you and your boys are basically grown men running around playing soldier. I was a gun enthusiast myself once, I owned several rifles- all military bolt-actions or semi-autos. But damn it man they are just guns. They are a tool. You’re not going to take on the Federal Government with your Mini-14s and AR-15s and you know it deep down. Any uprising by militias will result in a war so quickly decided that it will make Grenada look like the Operation Overlord by comparison.
See the problem Mr. Wolf, is that the American people haven’t asked for your defense. When I’m in the US, I would sooner trust the US government for the protection of my Constitutional rights than some private militia, and if the US government violated said rights, I would rather go to the ACLU, and organization with a well-known track record of helping such victims. Militias have done virtually nothing save for landing unfortunate individuals in jail thanks to their barracks lawyer interpretation of statute.
The US hasn’t had a use for a citizen militia like that of the 18th century for quite some time, and what services it does need it derives from the National Guard. The National Guard, unlike your militia, is regulated by the government. Because I was in the army, I know what kind of training National Guardsmen have prior to joining their units, whereas we know absolutely nothing about the training standards of your militia, nor do we know what legal code governs its actions, like an equivalent to UCMJ if you will.
If you are upset about conditions in the US, there are a myriad of ways to work to change those conditions and rules which don’t include the use or display of firearms or paramilitary training. But this militia movement has always been little more than a farce. It is because of militias’ actions that they draw the attention of law enforcement, and thus they deprive themselves of freedoms that they would otherwise had if they decided not to live-action role-play as insurgents.
on March 10th, 2010 at 11:19 am
Uh-oh, Snorlax you better watch out. Greywolf ‘s beating his chiseled chest. It’s most convincing. Now that we know his fat to body mass ratio, I think you better lay low for awhile. I’m afraid he’s going to try to grapple with you after a heated exchange of words. Anyone want to take a bet he uses a battle-axe viking as his avatar on the right wing social networks?
on March 10th, 2010 at 11:21 am
For a second I thought this was a commercial about viagra.
on March 10th, 2010 at 11:27 am
I have said it before and I say it again. The uber-nationalist immigration restrictionist movement repeatedly uses the argument that undocumented immigrants push down wages for American workers. That is Marx’s theory of labor value, like it or not. Who knew that the nativist militias were secretly Marxists? Had they actually read Marx, instead of Marx’s critics, they would realize the reasons why he became the most influential thinker of his age go well beyond the errors of organization in subsequent generations of so-called Marxists. These are oxy-morons, and need to be treated as such.
on March 10th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
R Lavigueur:
“and yes, property, well before Europeans ever decided to cross the Atlantic.”
Thanks for shooting down your argument yourself. That was quite amusing.
The way you patronize those people is pathetic.
Either they understood and practiced the idea of private property or they did not.
This is what you said earlier, “The concept of private property doesn’t even exist.”
Make up your mind.
I believe they were simply one civilization replaced by a better one. I don’t sit and make up stuff like they didn’t understand or practice private property ownership.
Consistency, thou art a gem!
You need to get some of that.
on March 10th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Ruslan, give us a break with the propaganda.
“If you are referring to the socialist camp, the poorest American’s standard of living didn’t outstrip that of say, a citizen of the Soviet Union. Soviet citizens had access to free education, health care, and various cultural and recreational facilities- the poorest Americans don’t.”
I spent quite a bit of time preparing facilities for state department visits to Moscow before the USSR fell apart.
There is one thing you found in Moscow:
Awful food, awful buildings, awful cars, horrible limousines, and the capper?
I have never seen dental work so horrible as the steel teeth and fillings of Russians under communism.
I never ran into as rude a group of people as those in Moscow under communism and I don’t blame them. If I had been forced to live there then I would have been rude too.
I have seen better efficiency, quality and organization in third world countries I have been sent to.
“I wasn’t aware that the labor theory of value was “bogus”. It has in fact been successfully defended today.”
Really? Let’s have ourselves a reality check. You will quote some scholar with some paper proof. REALITY shows us that any nation that falls for such absurdity fails.
Whether it holds up in the real world is much more important.
That is why communism suckers in so many dupes. You can have all kinds of lefty academics write forever about what it is, how it will work etc.
The only problem is it doesn’t work. When it doesn’t work, the refrain is endless excuses.
Too bad the old KGB isn’t around today, you would have made a great propaganda minister.
on March 10th, 2010 at 10:44 pm
Jack I am sure R Lavigueur will address your concerns in totality, but I see no inconsistency in what he is saying about the indigenous of North America and concepts of private property as practiced by capitalism. You are deliberately seeking to misunderstand, at the same time as you shirk from replying in a meaningful way to advance your point of view. I believe what R Lavigueur was saying refers to ownership of land, and the role of property within a system of generalized reciprocity — that is, what we tend to think of as ownership “rights”. That doesn’t mean someone is going to go take somebody else’s loincloth or coup stick, it means that the concept of belonging is more about being in harmony with nature and with the group than it is about grabby individualism and trying to create enough capital to avoid having to break a sweat to survive. This is not to romanticize the indigenous way of life, but clearly there are comparisons to be made. Whereas the indigenous made use of every part of the bison for both practical reasons and those of spirituality, our society prizes one-time use and souless disposability. Why is selfishness and one time use better than the greatest utility for the greatest number of people? Trading, barter, common use and more or less institutionalized gift giving in a reciprocal group are not the same thing as having currency and deeds of ownership at all. Nor are the latter necessarily better given that here in the United States people get killed over a brand name label — for some garment made in a sweatshop in Indonesia for about $3. The relative value ascribed to such things is clearly a form of social illness. I suggest you read Marx about his ideas of the commodity fetish for a better understanding of what the concept of value is.
on March 11th, 2010 at 1:34 am
Jack said,
“I spent quite a bit of time preparing facilities for state department visits to Moscow before the USSR fell apart.”
Ah yes..what a coincidence it is that EVERY ignorant person I find myself arguing with over Soviet history just happened to have spent some time there, yet seemed to learn absolutely nothing from it.
“There is one thing you found in Moscow:
Awful food, awful buildings, awful cars, horrible limousines, and the capper?
I have never seen dental work so horrible as the steel teeth and fillings of Russians under communism.”
All of it far worse today, and poor dentistry is common all over the world- at least in the Soviet Union it was provided.
See why I called you ignorant?
“I never ran into as rude a group of people as those in Moscow under communism and I don’t blame them. If I had been forced to live there then I would have been rude too.”
Muscovites have become far ruder since the economy collapsed and everyone was forced to move to the capital for a decent living. This is a cultural issue and has little to do with politics.
Just so you know I’m still not buying your story about visiting Moscow.
“I have seen better efficiency, quality and organization in third world countries I have been sent to.”
Wow, first it was prepared facilities for state department visits, and now it turns into economic analysis. Credibility slipping further.
“Really? Let’s have ourselves a reality check. You will quote some scholar with some paper proof. REALITY shows us that any nation that falls for such absurdity fails.”
You alleged it was bogus, burden of proof is on you. Also, the Soviet Union succeeded whereas the Russian Empire and modern post Soviet Russia are collosal failures.
“Whether it holds up in the real world is much more important.
That is why communism suckers in so many dupes. You can have all kinds of lefty academics write forever about what it is, how it will work etc.”
It holds up in the real world whether a state recognizes it or not.
“The only problem is it doesn’t work. When it doesn’t work, the refrain is endless excuses.”
But it does work. When the USSR applied the tenets of Marxism-Leninism, it succeeded and became a superpower at an astronomical speed despite suffering the worst land invasion in history. When they decided to introduce market reforms starting in 1957, problems started developing. The destruction of all socialist nations can be traced to the introduction of market-oriented reforms.
Despite the labor theory of value being related to Marxism, this does not necessarily mean that it played a central role in any socialist nation’s economy. Workers earned wages which were not necessarily tied to the amount of labor time they put in- which was one of the problems of 20th century socialism.
If a system “doens’t work”, it is clearly capitalism, which promises global prosperity yet in order to provide such prosperity to a small minority of nations, must in fact keep the majority of nations in dirt poor poverty. The profit motive retards technological progress, and is responsible for everything from mass starvation to environmental destruction and modern-day slavery.
So Jack your economic knowledge is still clearly nil and I’m not buying your BS story about visits to Moscow on the grounds that every obviously ignorant person I debate with, upon finding out that I live in Russia, immediately talks about either “many friends from the East Bloc who said X” or how “I lived/visited the USSR!!” Yes, that’s really convenient.
on March 11th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Maybe you can tie that in with your belief of the gov shooting down flight 93 if you try hard enough.
You believe in myths, here is a great example:
“Whereas the indigenous made use of every part of the bison for both practical reasons and those of spirituality,”
Yep, they used everything when driving entire herds off cliffs and had nowhere near the transport required to use it.
You do provide me with great laughs though.
on March 11th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Wow, for once Jack actually said something historically accurate. Some tribes did use buffalo runs. Life in pre-European America was not exactly a picnic, but it does not excuse wholesale genocide.
on March 11th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
Jack I posted a link to a transcript of Rumsfeld in a broadcast interview explaining that fighter jets were scrambled and given shoot down authorization. For some reason it was not posted. So please, unless you prefer the comforting certainty of ignorance, research it yourself. By the way Rummy also used the term “shot down” in another broadcast address.
Again, regardless of what I believe or your believe about this issue, your snide commentary is a fallacy called “poisoning the well”. You attempt to discredit me by making me out to be a conspiratorialist crackpot, which I most certainly am not. If you contain your debate to rational dialogue and fact, you might have a better reception here. You might also manage to defend yourself more eloquently than debasing your interlocutor.
on March 11th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
Jack one other thing — herds that overpopulate die off. Are you so convinced the indigenous were idiots that they did not recognize this? The issue again is sustainability. You have failed to address my point, you merely cast aspersions and your arguments fade away like a wisp of foul vapor as soon as they are uttered.
on March 11th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
Sorry Ruslan, I have not just made that claim on this issue for your benefit.
It is in other posts here on SPLC before this argument.
I was an EOD tech when I was in the service and was detailed to many similar missions, the State dept. trip to Moscow was just one, but very enlightening.
(Mostly gofer work and annoying duties like clearing rooms and checking reporters gear for explosives, nothing super secret and nothing a lot of other EOD techs haven’t done.)
I have quite a lot of photos of the teams I worked on with Bill Clinton and Bush Senior. I am wearing a presidential seal ring right now signed by Bush senior given as a thank you for one trip. (I have one from old Billy boy but would never wear it. Having to shake his hand was punishment enough.)
It was scut work but gave me the opportunity to travel a lot which was important to me at the time.
“Also, the Soviet Union succeeded.”
Really? Last time I checked a map they no longer existed. Not the mark of success :-)
“The profit motive retards technological progress,”
The profit motive is what DRIVES progress. Why do you think Soviet Russia was always committing industrial and military espionage on us to steal American inventions?
You guys would have never had nuclear weapons but for stealing designs.
“and is responsible for everything from mass starvation”
Really? Do you not remember all the grain the US sent to the communists in Russia every year to keep them from starving wholesale because communist farms don’t work?
Soviet Russia would have never made it as far as it did WITHOUT our assistance.
We SUBSIDIZED your supposed “success.”
If you consider steel dentistry some great accomplishment in health care for a nation I pity you.
I don’t care what you think of my travels, you are free to smugly shrug them off if you prefer.
However, there is one thing no one can ever do is destroy those experiences, and those experiences in foreign nations have shown me just what you get with communism and I ain’t buying your propaganda.
Go back to communism if you wish, we’ll just drive you under again.
on March 11th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Regarding Mr. Potok’s contributions to the issue, “Rage on the Right”:
I have belonged to and donated to SPLC for the better part of 30 years. It saddens me to observe Mr. Potok’s apparent disability in distinguishing between conservatives and despicable right-wing extremists. That his problem represents an area of intellectual incompetency is unfortunate.
But what saddens me is the damage he is doing to an excellent organization and the legacy of its brave founder–who was able to make this rather fundamental distinction.
on March 11th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Don’t forget the RW online media which shares the views of hate groups. Andrew Breitbart’s “BIG” sites are full of the language and beliefs of white supremacists and other hate groups. They even claim that kids aren’t equal while complaining about Sesame Street!
on March 12th, 2010 at 8:47 am
There it is. Jack is a NWO subversive. Can you see how he keeps Bush 41′s signet ring to keep the fires of passion for international government stoked?
on March 12th, 2010 at 8:54 am
“Sorry Ruslan, I have not just made that claim on this issue for your benefit.
It is in other posts here on SPLC before this argument.”
Funny that you only bring it up too late.
“I was an EOD tech when I was in the service and was detailed to many similar missions, the State dept. trip to Moscow was just one, but very enlightening.
(Mostly gofer work and annoying duties like clearing rooms and checking reporters gear for explosives, nothing super secret and nothing a lot of other EOD techs haven’t done.)
I have quite a lot of photos of the teams I worked on with Bill Clinton and Bush Senior. I am wearing a presidential seal ring right now signed by Bush senior given as a thank you for one trip. (I have one from old Billy boy but would never wear it. Having to shake his hand was punishment enough.)”
Gee that’s funny because in case you hadn’t heard, the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 along with the whole economy. I still don’t buy your story though.
“Really? Last time I checked a map they no longer existed. Not the mark of success ”
They succeeded insofar as they applied the principles upon which the Union was founded. As they went further and further down the path of market reforms, big problems developed. The decline became noticable in the west around 1960.
“The profit motive is what DRIVES progress. Why do you think Soviet Russia was always committing industrial and military espionage on us to steal American inventions?
You guys would have never had nuclear weapons but for stealing designs.”
Gee, it sure wasn’t profit motivating that espionage. Are you going to claim that the US developed the atomic bomb for the profit motive? In case you hadn’t heard, that was a government project.
” Do you not remember all the grain the US sent to the communists in Russia every year to keep them from starving wholesale because communist farms don’t work?”
Up to the Khruschev-era, excluding war-time, the USSR was exporting grain. Khruschev’s boneheaded agricultural reforms were to blame for the situation.
“Soviet Russia would have never made it as far as it did WITHOUT our assistance.
We SUBSIDIZED your supposed “success.””
Incorrect.
“If you consider steel dentistry some great accomplishment in health care for a nation I pity you.”
Funny a guy who travels so much wasn’t aware that in most parts of the developing world dentistry is of poor quality. Still, the dental coverage of Soviet citizens was superior to most people in the world as the majority of countries were and still are impoverished.
“I don’t care what you think of my travels, you are free to smugly shrug them off if you prefer.”
Sorry but you’re not very convincing.
“However, there is one thing no one can ever do is destroy those experiences, and those experiences in foreign nations have shown me just what you get with communism and I ain’t buying your propaganda.”
At most the earliest you could have been in the USSR was 1988, a time when thanks to the idiotic actions of Gorbachev, the economy was on the verge of collapse. That being said, the conditions have become far worse all over Europe and millions of people according to numerous surveys are already saying as much. That trumps your questionable personal anecdotes.
“Go back to communism if you wish, we’ll just drive you under again.”
You are most likely not a capitalist so you are only allowing others to drive you under.
on March 12th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
Ruslan, you are good for a laugh and it would be nice, if communism were not such an insidious threat.
It collapsed in 91? Really?
Duh, I was there in 88 and 89.
“You are most likely not a capitalist so you are only allowing others to drive you under.”
Really? That is interesting. So I am a socialist or what?
Laughable.
If the CCCP had made it a few hundred years without the constant support of our grain and stolen technology, (let’s also not forget all the money and technology Western companies put in to developing your oil fields and diamond mines) and had a half decent standard of living and did not have to FORCE people to stay in their prison, MAYBE then you could call it a success.
If the place was so great, why did you have to keep it a prison? People don’t have to be forced to stay somewhere that’s good.
Sorry, they just don’t measure up and never have.
Go back to communism, a good cold war would be good for our economy and end some of this feel good one-world garbage.
Beholder:
“There it is. Jack is a NWO subversive. Can you see how he keeps Bush 41’s signet ring to keep the fires of passion for international government stoked?”
What a laugh. It is a memento of my service. I am the last person that would support an NWO. I have never voted for a Bush or Clinton or Obama.
Unfortunately, my country voted them in. Doesn’t mean I support them.
I enjoyed serving my country but I am not given the choice of who my commander in chief is.
Go back to your 9/11 truth lunacy.
on March 12th, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Ruslan, well said. I understand your doubts (not directed at me, I think) but I was in USSR toward the end. I was only there briefly, but I saw a lot of desperation. The plaza in front of the Hermitage was filled with black market peddlers under the tolerant gaze of police on the take. Special shops for foreigners sold propaganda posters, caviar, and black laquer. The food was indeed horrible, even in the best places. But from this I deduced nothing of the same conclusions as Jack. I simply saw another aspect of humanity.
For what it is worth, though I have not been back to Leningrad or any of the FSU, I have kept track of broad social and political tides, and I do think things are worse. My friends from Russia have said that life under the Soviets had its ups and downs but was not as frightening or degrading as Americans like to believe. Now they say crime is skyrocketing, organized crime and the government are one in the same, women debase themselves for any hope of leaving the country, and there is weakness everywhere in the social fabric. The Cold War took a toll on both sides. I just wanted to say I enjoy reading your views. I don’t always agree with you, but you always have something provocative to say.
on March 12th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Go back to your 9/11 truth lunacy.
———-
Why would I, Jack? Your lunacy is so much more intriguing.
on March 12th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Beholder:
Don’t you find it strange that selling goods in public is somehow a bad thing and “black market?”
Everywhere else that is just called trade.
It wasn’t just the cops on the take, but the military. I bought a lot of cool militaria that I brought back.
“I was only there briefly, but I saw a lot of desperation.”
Yep, when you live in a communist country you are desperate, except for those at the top that are “more equal.”
“I simply saw another aspect of humanity.”
Your visit did not force you to come to some conclusions about the country?
I find that hard to believe.
on March 12th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
Ruslin
I see you think that the federal government will just wipe us poor wannbe soldiers off the map. The problem with your argument is two fold. First the government trained about 90% of us. Most are Iraq Vets and or Vietnam Vets and a few grenada vets too. Most don’t just play soldier, you see it’s kinda like after Vietnam when guys came home to the mistreatment and formed Motorcycle clubs, Why? because thats where the felt like they belonged. But some formed militia units and live like they never left the military. They train and eat and sleep this stuff. So although out armed by present military forces, most of us know that a good portion of those military forces will join us rather then betray the Constitution. Many of them and us are oath keepers, To those who are unaware of what that means to a soldier or cop. That means we don’t care who’s in charge, we will not violate the oath we took to protect and defend the constitution. Nowhere in that oath did it say protect the government, or socialist, or polititians.
second. although we only carry an AR or AK, and only have our wits to get us by. We know because some of us have fought in wars. that small guerilla units can cause havoc on larger forces. Just ask our Vietnam Vets and Iraq vets. Yes in a conventional war with lines and artillary firing back and forth, we would be screwed. But That’s not what any man in his right mind would do. By the way It really bothers me when some socialist pacifist, who only thinks his cause is worth fighting for uses that same ol tired argument. ” hey your not going to be able to defeat the US military with small arms”. It shows me, that you would march right off to the reeduacation camps if a tyrannt took over.
Beholder
My friend your a funny dude. I laughed my butt off. I wasn’t flexin my bother just get tired of hearing the same ol fat redneck crap. When I was in the military I took pride in my abilities and physical condition. I still do was all I was saying.
If you need viagra I am very sorry friend, maybe you should take some vitamins or find a better looking ol lady. It’s amazing how smart you all think you are. It is too bad your not as smart as you think.
As for my avatars, I have two…..One is a revolutionary war flag, the other is a pic of me on my scoot… Sorry to disappoint you redneck racist dream… but no swatikas or KKK emblems and I don’t even own a hood. better luck next time… Go back to your closet and get out your Che shirt and sit around drinking your latte and maybe things will work out and we all can become this commune style socialist utopia.
on March 13th, 2010 at 1:19 am
I actually believe beholder more than you Jack, because at least he mentions a few things that are consistent with the era. By 88-89 several decades of market-oriented reforms plus those of perestroika had destroyed the socialist economy. Got that- the USSR and allies declined insofar as they brought elements of capitalism into their economies, not because they were too radical in the direction of Marx. It was the rejection of Marxism-Leninism which led to their collapse.
Problem is Jack, that scientific studies, surveys, analysis, and so on, trumps your anecdotal story even if it were true. Life in Russia, in Eastern Europe, is demonstrably worse than in the USSR in a number of ways- and the people know this and openly speak about it.
“You are good for a laugh and it would be nice, if communism were not such an insidious threat.
It collapsed in 91? Really?
Duh, I was there in 88 and 89.”
Sure you were.
Gee, I wonder why it’s such a threat if it’s such a failure. Oh wait that’s right, you inhabit right wing fantasy land.
“Really? That is interesting. So I am a socialist or what?
Laughable.”
Typical apologist for capitalism who doesn’t even know what a capitalist is.
“If the CCCP had made it a few hundred years without the constant support of our grain and stolen technology, (let’s also not forget all the money and technology Western companies put in to developing your oil fields and diamond mines) and had a half decent standard of living and did not have to FORCE people to stay in their prison, MAYBE then you could call it a success.”
Incorrect. The industrialization of the Soviet Union was not some gift bestowed upon it by the West or the US. The USSR did engage in trade to obtain the materials it needed to industrialize. Why is this a problem? Many countries based their industrialization on outside foreign trade and expertise. I don’t see you whining about what a failure Japan is.
“If the place was so great, why did you have to keep it a prison? People don’t have to be forced to stay somewhere that’s good.
Sorry, they just don’t measure up and never have.”
Why do so many people leave capitalist countries every day?
Face it- most of the world is capitalist, most of the world is poor, and a great deal of that is dying from starvation or other horrors. Add to that yet another crisis that was inevitable due to the internal inconsistencies of the system and you get one conclusion- Capitalism is a failure. The ability for a system to sustain itself over time does not at all mean the system is “right” or that it is successful. It only means that people have not yet perfected an alternative and managed to defend it against counter-revolution. So again, based on the obvious evidence above- capitalism is a failure.
Maybe losing your house or getting laid off will help build a little class consciousness in you.
on March 15th, 2010 at 11:13 am
Jack said,
on March 12th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Beholder:
Don’t you find it strange that selling goods in public is somehow a bad thing and “black market?”
Everywhere else that is just called trade.
————–
Strange? Not all all. look how the big American and Allied European corporations profiteered after World War I and II by setting up the largest black market ever seen in this world. Not surprising in the least.
on March 15th, 2010 at 11:26 am
“I simply saw another aspect of humanity.”
Your visit did not force you to come to some conclusions about the country?
I find that hard to believe.
—————
No I did reach some conclusions, just not the same as yours. When I came out and was not required to declare any currency and saw the exit guards not really caring about their jobs anymore, it was clear to me that whatever was left of the “red scare” was highly symbolic and important mainly to America as a foil to our own jingoistic expansionism. I was a little intimidated by the process but I realized those were just ordinary guys trying to get by like everybody else. My worries were unfounded. It made me wonder what else I missed, how else I had been misled by American schools and the popular ideologies of the day (we were riding high on the fall of the Berlin wall and hopes that the clouds of nuclear anihilation were passing overhead, still drunk on the feel good simplicity of life under Ronald Reagan). Russia was undergoing changes, and it was interesting. There was nothing to celebrate — I felt ashamed of America for its Levis and its brand name sneakers that people would grovel to purchase. I never felt these things had much value, but I realized then how awful our culture had become, to put brands and styles over simple human decency. Did I conclude the soviets were an evil empire rightly done in by the good old USA? That’s what you want me to say, right? Well the answer is no. I saw people just like me.
on March 15th, 2010 at 11:48 am
Ruslan
“Maybe losing your house or getting laid off will help build a little class consciousness in you.”
Nope. I have lost jobs in the past, it is a part of life. I won’t be losing any of my property because it’s paid for. I do not live the typical life of debt as most do now.
And your claims about capitalism are ludicrous, most countries are not capitalist, you can not have capitalism without well-protected private property rights.
“Why do so many people leave capitalist countries every day?”
Really? I don’t remember any flood of Americans to socialist countries.
What we have right now is a flood of immigration, legal and illegal, not emigration.
Sorry, wrong.
And even if they were leaving, they would be doing so because they had the RIGHT to do it without being machine-gunned to death on the border by some communist stooge.
The fact that you had to imprison your population says it all.
on March 15th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Hey Jack, boo, it’s a New World Order!
on March 16th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
Wow,
Some of you need to read something besides Mao’s little red book, or Alimsky’s rules for radicals.
I understand some of you have never made a living by working with your hands. Some are still in those left wing universities. I know that most of us get our ideas from our experiences. If all you know is what your 60′s radical professor told you. I can’t expect you to actually do your own thinking or research.
I am who I am because of my past. School of hard knocks, US Army, War and Working with my hands.
And you are who you are for your reasons. But don’t preach to a working man how you are for the working man. You’ve never worked. I don’t buy it.
Daddy sent you to school, you were bored so you joined the Students for a Democatic society. Now you think you know the working man. Ha!
Or you are some 60′s radical, who was too afraid to fight for your country so you got a deferment and joined the weather underground. You think you speak for the people. HA!
I am glad you all believe this communist stuff and you think your smart and educated, The first things ever done in a communist society is to execute or lock away all the professors and educated elite. Good luck in prison.
you would impress me more if you could quote the founders and not Chavez, Castro, Marx, or Mao.
Ben Franklin said “Anyone who would sacrifice essential liberty for security, deserves neither liberty or security”.
I came on here to see what you all were about. heres what I found.
The first time I posted, I was met with the one thing you say your trying to stop. Hatred… I was called drunken white redneck trash. Even though none of you knew me. HUMMM, I see that hatred is alive and well on the left. Maybe the SPLC should put you all down as extremist hate groups. I was neither drunk, or trash and not even a redneck.
The second thing I notice is a lack of wonder. You would think, here you had an opportunity to talk to a militia man and see for yourself what we are about. No you’d rather buy the government line that were all evil.
The third thing I noticed is that most of you have not been taught your history, just the history as your socialist professor see it. Your taught not to question them or their ideas. Just anyone elses that happens to disagree. Then your fed talking points and you stick with them. Why? because your argument sticks, it makes no sense to anyone old enough to remember the USSR.
I can promise you this if your unlucky enough to suceed in getting your communist/socialist country. You will curse that day, or your kids will.
I can’t spend to much time here, I have training to do, I’ve seen what I came here to see.Not a keyboard commando,
A patriot.
So if your willing to fight for your beliefs….. I will see you on the field of battle, Good luck
Greywolf
47 Wolfpack Militia
I
on March 17th, 2010 at 9:32 am
Speak for yourself, Greywolf. I washed dishes and put myself through college. There may be harder work, but not by much. No hand outs came my way. That’s yet another stereotype. I guess your experience is not enough, perhaps you should crack a book.
on March 18th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
On the topic of canards, the cliches about a “free market” need some attention. This is a very interesting article from the Center For American Progress –on why the “free market” led to and $8 trillion housing bubble. http://www.americanprogress.or.....event.html
on March 20th, 2010 at 12:46 am
Militias are overweight drunken white trash whackos playing with guns and spewing racist hate. Immature boys with their toys?
Got any proof of that Snorlax?
The Patriot Act was voted on and extended by a majority of Americans.
Bush started a torture gulag. So why haven’t the democrats stopped it then?
Warrantless searches and wiretaps have been going on for years. Have you ever heard of ‘Echelon’?
on February 7th, 2011 at 12:28 pm
The reason all of you including me can sit here and say all the ideas that we believe. thank a Vet or soldier, and remember that most of us in the militia are x military, and oathkeepers, and proud of our service even when other protested and called us names.. You have the right to act like an ass because of us.
Greywolf
47 wolf pack militia