Greywolf
47 wolf pack militia

Got any proof of that Snorlax?

The Patriot Act was voted on and extended by a majority of Americans.

Bush started a torture gulag. So why haven’t the democrats stopped it then?

Warrantless searches and wiretaps have been going on for years. Have you ever heard of ‘Echelon’?

Ben Franklin said “Anyone who would sacrifice essential liberty for security, deserves neither liberty or security”.

I came on here to see what you all were about. heres what I found.
The first time I posted, I was met with the one thing you say your trying to stop. Hatred… I was called drunken white redneck trash. Even though none of you knew me. HUMMM, I see that hatred is alive and well on the left. Maybe the SPLC should put you all down as extremist hate groups. I was neither drunk, or trash and not even a redneck.
The second thing I notice is a lack of wonder. You would think, here you had an opportunity to talk to a militia man and see for yourself what we are about. No you’d rather buy the government line that were all evil.
The third thing I noticed is that most of you have not been taught your history, just the history as your socialist professor see it. Your taught not to question them or their ideas. Just anyone elses that happens to disagree. Then your fed talking points and you stick with them. Why? because your argument sticks, it makes no sense to anyone old enough to remember the USSR.

I can promise you this if your unlucky enough to suceed in getting your communist/socialist country. You will curse that day, or your kids will.

I can’t spend to much time here, I have training to do, I’ve seen what I came here to see.Not a keyboard commando,

A patriot.

So if your willing to fight for your beliefs….. I will see you on the field of battle, Good luck

Greywolf
47 Wolfpack Militia
I

Nope. I have lost jobs in the past, it is a part of life. I won’t be losing any of my property because it’s paid for. I do not live the typical life of debt as most do now.

And your claims about capitalism are ludicrous, most countries are not capitalist, you can not have capitalism without well-protected private property rights.

“Why do so many people leave capitalist countries every day?”
Really? I don’t remember any flood of Americans to socialist countries.
What we have right now is a flood of immigration, legal and illegal, not emigration.

Sorry, wrong.

And even if they were leaving, they would be doing so because they had the RIGHT to do it without being machine-gunned to death on the border by some communist stooge.

The fact that you had to imprison your population says it all.

No I did reach some conclusions, just not the same as yours. When I came out and was not required to declare any currency and saw the exit guards not really caring about their jobs anymore, it was clear to me that whatever was left of the “red scare” was highly symbolic and important mainly to America as a foil to our own jingoistic expansionism. I was a little intimidated by the process but I realized those were just ordinary guys trying to get by like everybody else. My worries were unfounded. It made me wonder what else I missed, how else I had been misled by American schools and the popular ideologies of the day (we were riding high on the fall of the Berlin wall and hopes that the clouds of nuclear anihilation were passing overhead, still drunk on the feel good simplicity of life under Ronald Reagan). Russia was undergoing changes, and it was interesting. There was nothing to celebrate — I felt ashamed of America for its Levis and its brand name sneakers that people would grovel to purchase. I never felt these things had much value, but I realized then how awful our culture had become, to put brands and styles over simple human decency. Did I conclude the soviets were an evil empire rightly done in by the good old USA? That’s what you want me to say, right? Well the answer is no. I saw people just like me.

on March 12th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

Beholder:
Don’t you find it strange that selling goods in public is somehow a bad thing and “black market?”
Everywhere else that is just called trade.
————–

Strange? Not all all. look how the big American and Allied European corporations profiteered after World War I and II by setting up the largest black market ever seen in this world. Not surprising in the least.

Problem is Jack, that scientific studies, surveys, analysis, and so on, trumps your anecdotal story even if it were true. Life in Russia, in Eastern Europe, is demonstrably worse than in the USSR in a number of ways- and the people know this and openly speak about it.

“You are good for a laugh and it would be nice, if communism were not such an insidious threat.
It collapsed in 91? Really?
Duh, I was there in 88 and 89.”

Sure you were.

Gee, I wonder why it’s such a threat if it’s such a failure. Oh wait that’s right, you inhabit right wing fantasy land.

“Really? That is interesting. So I am a socialist or what?
Laughable.”

Typical apologist for capitalism who doesn’t even know what a capitalist is.

“If the CCCP had made it a few hundred years without the constant support of our grain and stolen technology, (let’s also not forget all the money and technology Western companies put in to developing your oil fields and diamond mines) and had a half decent standard of living and did not have to FORCE people to stay in their prison, MAYBE then you could call it a success.”

Incorrect. The industrialization of the Soviet Union was not some gift bestowed upon it by the West or the US. The USSR did engage in trade to obtain the materials it needed to industrialize. Why is this a problem? Many countries based their industrialization on outside foreign trade and expertise. I don’t see you whining about what a failure Japan is.

“If the place was so great, why did you have to keep it a prison? People don’t have to be forced to stay somewhere that’s good.
Sorry, they just don’t measure up and never have.”

Why do so many people leave capitalist countries every day?

Face it- most of the world is capitalist, most of the world is poor, and a great deal of that is dying from starvation or other horrors. Add to that yet another crisis that was inevitable due to the internal inconsistencies of the system and you get one conclusion- Capitalism is a failure. The ability for a system to sustain itself over time does not at all mean the system is “right” or that it is successful. It only means that people have not yet perfected an alternative and managed to defend it against counter-revolution. So again, based on the obvious evidence above- capitalism is a failure.

Maybe losing your house or getting laid off will help build a little class consciousness in you.

Beholder
My friend your a funny dude. I laughed my butt off. I wasn’t flexin my bother just get tired of hearing the same ol fat redneck crap. When I was in the military I took pride in my abilities and physical condition. I still do was all I was saying.
If you need viagra I am very sorry friend, maybe you should take some vitamins or find a better looking ol lady. It’s amazing how smart you all think you are. It is too bad your not as smart as you think.

As for my avatars, I have two…..One is a revolutionary war flag, the other is a pic of me on my scoot… Sorry to disappoint you redneck racist dream… but no swatikas or KKK emblems and I don’t even own a hood. better luck next time… Go back to your closet and get out your Che shirt and sit around drinking your latte and maybe things will work out and we all can become this commune style socialist utopia.

It wasn’t just the cops on the take, but the military. I bought a lot of cool militaria that I brought back.

“I was only there briefly, but I saw a lot of desperation.”
Yep, when you live in a communist country you are desperate, except for those at the top that are “more equal.”

“I simply saw another aspect of humanity.”
Your visit did not force you to come to some conclusions about the country?
I find that hard to believe.

For what it is worth, though I have not been back to Leningrad or any of the FSU, I have kept track of broad social and political tides, and I do think things are worse. My friends from Russia have said that life under the Soviets had its ups and downs but was not as frightening or degrading as Americans like to believe. Now they say crime is skyrocketing, organized crime and the government are one in the same, women debase themselves for any hope of leaving the country, and there is weakness everywhere in the social fabric. The Cold War took a toll on both sides. I just wanted to say I enjoy reading your views. I don’t always agree with you, but you always have something provocative to say.

“You are most likely not a capitalist so you are only allowing others to drive you under.”
Really? That is interesting. So I am a socialist or what?
Laughable.

If the CCCP had made it a few hundred years without the constant support of our grain and stolen technology, (let’s also not forget all the money and technology Western companies put in to developing your oil fields and diamond mines) and had a half decent standard of living and did not have to FORCE people to stay in their prison, MAYBE then you could call it a success.
If the place was so great, why did you have to keep it a prison? People don’t have to be forced to stay somewhere that’s good.
Sorry, they just don’t measure up and never have.

Go back to communism, a good cold war would be good for our economy and end some of this feel good one-world garbage.

Beholder:
“There it is. Jack is a NWO subversive. Can you see how he keeps Bush 41’s signet ring to keep the fires of passion for international government stoked?”

What a laugh. It is a memento of my service. I am the last person that would support an NWO. I have never voted for a Bush or Clinton or Obama.
Unfortunately, my country voted them in. Doesn’t mean I support them.
I enjoyed serving my country but I am not given the choice of who my commander in chief is.

Go back to your 9/11 truth lunacy.

Funny that you only bring it up too late.

“I was an EOD tech when I was in the service and was detailed to many similar missions, the State dept. trip to Moscow was just one, but very enlightening.
(Mostly gofer work and annoying duties like clearing rooms and checking reporters gear for explosives, nothing super secret and nothing a lot of other EOD techs haven’t done.)
I have quite a lot of photos of the teams I worked on with Bill Clinton and Bush Senior. I am wearing a presidential seal ring right now signed by Bush senior given as a thank you for one trip. (I have one from old Billy boy but would never wear it. Having to shake his hand was punishment enough.)”

Gee that’s funny because in case you hadn’t heard, the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 along with the whole economy. I still don’t buy your story though.

“Really? Last time I checked a map they no longer existed. Not the mark of success ”

They succeeded insofar as they applied the principles upon which the Union was founded. As they went further and further down the path of market reforms, big problems developed. The decline became noticable in the west around 1960.

“The profit motive is what DRIVES progress. Why do you think Soviet Russia was always committing industrial and military espionage on us to steal American inventions?
You guys would have never had nuclear weapons but for stealing designs.”

Gee, it sure wasn’t profit motivating that espionage. Are you going to claim that the US developed the atomic bomb for the profit motive? In case you hadn’t heard, that was a government project.

” Do you not remember all the grain the US sent to the communists in Russia every year to keep them from starving wholesale because communist farms don’t work?”

Up to the Khruschev-era, excluding war-time, the USSR was exporting grain. Khruschev’s boneheaded agricultural reforms were to blame for the situation.

“Soviet Russia would have never made it as far as it did WITHOUT our assistance.
We SUBSIDIZED your supposed “success.””

Incorrect.

“If you consider steel dentistry some great accomplishment in health care for a nation I pity you.”

Funny a guy who travels so much wasn’t aware that in most parts of the developing world dentistry is of poor quality. Still, the dental coverage of Soviet citizens was superior to most people in the world as the majority of countries were and still are impoverished.

“I don’t care what you think of my travels, you are free to smugly shrug them off if you prefer.”

Sorry but you’re not very convincing.

“However, there is one thing no one can ever do is destroy those experiences, and those experiences in foreign nations have shown me just what you get with communism and I ain’t buying your propaganda.”

At most the earliest you could have been in the USSR was 1988, a time when thanks to the idiotic actions of Gorbachev, the economy was on the verge of collapse. That being said, the conditions have become far worse all over Europe and millions of people according to numerous surveys are already saying as much. That trumps your questionable personal anecdotes.

“Go back to communism if you wish, we’ll just drive you under again.”

You are most likely not a capitalist so you are only allowing others to drive you under.

I have belonged to and donated to SPLC for the better part of 30 years. It saddens me to observe Mr. Potok’s apparent disability in distinguishing between conservatives and despicable right-wing extremists. That his problem represents an area of intellectual incompetency is unfortunate.

But what saddens me is the damage he is doing to an excellent organization and the legacy of its brave founder–who was able to make this rather fundamental distinction.

I was an EOD tech when I was in the service and was detailed to many similar missions, the State dept. trip to Moscow was just one, but very enlightening.
(Mostly gofer work and annoying duties like clearing rooms and checking reporters gear for explosives, nothing super secret and nothing a lot of other EOD techs haven’t done.)
I have quite a lot of photos of the teams I worked on with Bill Clinton and Bush Senior. I am wearing a presidential seal ring right now signed by Bush senior given as a thank you for one trip. (I have one from old Billy boy but would never wear it. Having to shake his hand was punishment enough.)

It was scut work but gave me the opportunity to travel a lot which was important to me at the time.

“Also, the Soviet Union succeeded.”
Really? Last time I checked a map they no longer existed. Not the mark of success :-)

“The profit motive retards technological progress,”
The profit motive is what DRIVES progress. Why do you think Soviet Russia was always committing industrial and military espionage on us to steal American inventions?
You guys would have never had nuclear weapons but for stealing designs.

“and is responsible for everything from mass starvation”
Really? Do you not remember all the grain the US sent to the communists in Russia every year to keep them from starving wholesale because communist farms don’t work?

Soviet Russia would have never made it as far as it did WITHOUT our assistance.
We SUBSIDIZED your supposed “success.”

If you consider steel dentistry some great accomplishment in health care for a nation I pity you.

I don’t care what you think of my travels, you are free to smugly shrug them off if you prefer.

However, there is one thing no one can ever do is destroy those experiences, and those experiences in foreign nations have shown me just what you get with communism and I ain’t buying your propaganda.

Go back to communism if you wish, we’ll just drive you under again.

Again, regardless of what I believe or your believe about this issue, your snide commentary is a fallacy called “poisoning the well”. You attempt to discredit me by making me out to be a conspiratorialist crackpot, which I most certainly am not. If you contain your debate to rational dialogue and fact, you might have a better reception here. You might also manage to defend yourself more eloquently than debasing your interlocutor.

You believe in myths, here is a great example:
“Whereas the indigenous made use of every part of the bison for both practical reasons and those of spirituality,”

Yep, they used everything when driving entire herds off cliffs and had nowhere near the transport required to use it.

You do provide me with great laughs though.

“I spent quite a bit of time preparing facilities for state department visits to Moscow before the USSR fell apart.”

Ah yes..what a coincidence it is that EVERY ignorant person I find myself arguing with over Soviet history just happened to have spent some time there, yet seemed to learn absolutely nothing from it.

“There is one thing you found in Moscow:
Awful food, awful buildings, awful cars, horrible limousines, and the capper?
I have never seen dental work so horrible as the steel teeth and fillings of Russians under communism.”

All of it far worse today, and poor dentistry is common all over the world- at least in the Soviet Union it was provided.
See why I called you ignorant?

“I never ran into as rude a group of people as those in Moscow under communism and I don’t blame them. If I had been forced to live there then I would have been rude too.”

Muscovites have become far ruder since the economy collapsed and everyone was forced to move to the capital for a decent living. This is a cultural issue and has little to do with politics.

Just so you know I’m still not buying your story about visiting Moscow.

“I have seen better efficiency, quality and organization in third world countries I have been sent to.”

Wow, first it was prepared facilities for state department visits, and now it turns into economic analysis. Credibility slipping further.

“Really? Let’s have ourselves a reality check. You will quote some scholar with some paper proof. REALITY shows us that any nation that falls for such absurdity fails.”

You alleged it was bogus, burden of proof is on you. Also, the Soviet Union succeeded whereas the Russian Empire and modern post Soviet Russia are collosal failures.

“Whether it holds up in the real world is much more important.
That is why communism suckers in so many dupes. You can have all kinds of lefty academics write forever about what it is, how it will work etc.”

It holds up in the real world whether a state recognizes it or not.

“The only problem is it doesn’t work. When it doesn’t work, the refrain is endless excuses.”

But it does work. When the USSR applied the tenets of Marxism-Leninism, it succeeded and became a superpower at an astronomical speed despite suffering the worst land invasion in history. When they decided to introduce market reforms starting in 1957, problems started developing. The destruction of all socialist nations can be traced to the introduction of market-oriented reforms.

Despite the labor theory of value being related to Marxism, this does not necessarily mean that it played a central role in any socialist nation’s economy. Workers earned wages which were not necessarily tied to the amount of labor time they put in- which was one of the problems of 20th century socialism.

If a system “doens’t work”, it is clearly capitalism, which promises global prosperity yet in order to provide such prosperity to a small minority of nations, must in fact keep the majority of nations in dirt poor poverty. The profit motive retards technological progress, and is responsible for everything from mass starvation to environmental destruction and modern-day slavery.

So Jack your economic knowledge is still clearly nil and I’m not buying your BS story about visits to Moscow on the grounds that every obviously ignorant person I debate with, upon finding out that I live in Russia, immediately talks about either “many friends from the East Bloc who said X” or how “I lived/visited the USSR!!” Yes, that’s really convenient.

“If you are referring to the socialist camp, the poorest American’s standard of living didn’t outstrip that of say, a citizen of the Soviet Union. Soviet citizens had access to free education, health care, and various cultural and recreational facilities- the poorest Americans don’t.”

I spent quite a bit of time preparing facilities for state department visits to Moscow before the USSR fell apart.

There is one thing you found in Moscow:
Awful food, awful buildings, awful cars, horrible limousines, and the capper?
I have never seen dental work so horrible as the steel teeth and fillings of Russians under communism.
I never ran into as rude a group of people as those in Moscow under communism and I don’t blame them. If I had been forced to live there then I would have been rude too.

I have seen better efficiency, quality and organization in third world countries I have been sent to.

“I wasn’t aware that the labor theory of value was “bogus”. It has in fact been successfully defended today.”

Really? Let’s have ourselves a reality check. You will quote some scholar with some paper proof. REALITY shows us that any nation that falls for such absurdity fails.

Whether it holds up in the real world is much more important.
That is why communism suckers in so many dupes. You can have all kinds of lefty academics write forever about what it is, how it will work etc.

The only problem is it doesn’t work. When it doesn’t work, the refrain is endless excuses.

Too bad the old KGB isn’t around today, you would have made a great propaganda minister.

The way you patronize those people is pathetic.
Either they understood and practiced the idea of private property or they did not.

This is what you said earlier, “The concept of private property doesn’t even exist.”

Make up your mind.

I believe they were simply one civilization replaced by a better one. I don’t sit and make up stuff like they didn’t understand or practice private property ownership.

Consistency, thou art a gem!
You need to get some of that.