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Calling All Thugs: Gas Line Cut After Tea Party Leader Posts Enemy’s Address

By Mark Potok on March 24, 2010 - 2:20 pm, Posted in Antigovernment, Extremist Crime

The latest news from the opponents of health care reform who like to suggest that supporters should suffer for their transgressions: A day after two Virginia Tea Party activists posted the address of the brother of a congressman who voted for the bill, authorities discovered that someone had severed a gas line at the man’s home.

According to The Daily Progress of Charlottesville, Va., Danville Tea Party leader Nigel Coleman was one of the two people who posted the address of Bo Perriello, the older brother of U.S. Rep. Tom Perriello (D-Ivy), who voted for the health care bill. “This is Rep. Thomas Stuart Perriello’s home address,” Coleman wrote Monday, going on to suggest that others who oppose the health care bill “drop by” and “express their thanks.” He added, “I ain’t holding back no more.”

According to the Politico website, Coleman, upon learning he had posted the wrong address, said on a blog: “Do you mean I posted his brother’s address on my Facebook? Oh well, collateral damage.”

Told by The Daily Progress of the severing of the line that connected a propane tank to a grill on Perriello’s screened-in porch, Coleman said he was “shocked” and “almost speechless.” He claimed innocently that he was against violence, and in any case wasn’t sure that the attack, which is under FBI investigation, was related to his post.

Coleman’s absolutely despicable actions were remarkably similar to those of American neo-Nazi leaders who in recent years have made a practice of posting their enemies’ addresses and other personal information. They, too, often suggested that their sympathizers drop by to let enemies know their feelings. But that certainly didn’t stop Coleman from engaging in his own mindless and dangerous provocation.

The news of Coleman’s post and its apparent result followed boasts earlier in the week from Mike Vanderboegh, a former Alabama militia leader who last Friday called on enemies of health reform to smash the windows of local Democratic Party headquarters around the country. Vanderboegh’s threatening blog post, which suggested that civil war could be around the corner, was followed by bricks or stones being thrown through party offices in three states. The offices of two Democratic congressmen in New York and Arizona were similarly attacked.

As if that wasn’t enough, opponents of health care legislation demonstrating in Washington, D.C., this weekend spit on a black congressman, shouted racial slurs at two others, and shouted an anti-gay epithet at yet another. A week earlier, a group at a Tea Party in Columbus, Ohio, taunted a man sitting on the ground with a sign saying he had Parkinson’s disease. “If you’re looking for a handout,” one of the protesters told the health care reform supporter in a scene captured on video and posted to YouTube, “you’re in the wrong end of town.”

These despicable attacks and those who help foment them are unworthy of any citizen of a democracy, let alone of those who pretend to be standing up for principled conservatism. What we are seeing is the infuriated response of thugs and those who like to encourage thugs. And what may be most appalling of all is the absolute temerity, not to say cowardice, of supposedly responsible leaders of those who opposed health care reform, almost none of whom have condemned the latest round of hate. It’s a sad commentary on America that this is what our political process has become.

  • http://none dave varez

    “The real question is not for me or any of us that look at the Teaparty w/ skepticism and disdain. It is for those of you in it. What are you going to do to change the image
    of your organization, and do you really care to? ”

    KC , are you a tea party member? It sounds like it from your comment , discussing its image like you are on its executive committee.

    IMO , the answer to your question is no , they shouldn’t really care.

    Just as Obama fooled many followers into thinking he was going to pursue various agenda’s which he did not , and now they are disenchanted with him ,

    That same machine has attempted to fabricate a non existent view of the tea party movement , and no , they should not accept the position of “proving” it is not the case , and changing anything to allow the smear campaign to deter them from their original goals.

    For every slur and innuendo thrown at them , similar negative comments , examples , and innuendo’s can be hurled back at the other side -

    IF that was the agenda. But it is not. The agenda is clear , and I believe goes way beyond the “tea party” , and they dont need to explain or defend themselves , as clear headed people understand what is being attempted and are disgusted at the attempt by the “John Edwards Party”
    (“So , Vice President Cheney , I congradulate you on your Lesbian daughter” , right in the middle of a Vice Presidential debate . Cheney should have congradulated Edwards back with a right hook. What slime tactics).

    ” Having a fit because Obama is, at a point barely more than a year into his term, unable to address deficits because of the economy BushCo left the country is wholly hypocritical right wing BS.”

    KC , are you sure you have even ever listened to anything the tea party has said?

    They are no more happy with Bush’s spending policies than Obama’s. But you keep talking as if that isn’t the case. You ASSUME that because Bush is Republican , they approve his spending agenda. But they dont. Because they aren’t political. And they aren’t racist. They are sick of big gov and big spending , whether it is Bush OR Obama.

    Your alluding to Bush’s spending is not relevant –
    Regardless of its cost and problems , what is being addressed right now is that the Obama present and future taxing and spending and government expansion is being opposed – that Bush overdid it does not excuse that Obama is mega-overdoing it exponentially.

    “regardless of you political views, this is important to see if you are passionate about health care issues:”

    You want everyone to have healthcare?

    Raise the income limit for Medicaid , lower the age limit for Medicare with an income test below 65 , give healthcare insurance tax credits , achieve tort reform and deregulation of interstate policy constraints ,

    And regulate health insurance companies as if they were quasi utilities – meaning they have to offer certain minimum provisions , BUT-

    They operate freely without interference AND are guaranteed a profit – which regulated utilities are -

    Everyone has healthcare with a 20 page bill , and the government has very little involvement other than to enforce regulation and operation , as it does with utilities.

    BUT NOOOOOO -

    We have to have a 3000 page bill costing trillions with massive gov intervention and infrastructure in every State with Obama , who HAS NEVER EVEN READ THE BILL , as our “savior”.

    Gimmee a break.

  • Rob S.

    Oops! Forgot another:

    “Bush REVERSED the trend of fiscal responsibility when he turned inherited surpluses and an actual debt reduction to massive overspending and reductions in taxes to the wealthiest corps and citizens. Obama got on this train when it was already way out of control.”

    You left out the all important “proposed” part of the alleged surplus. In other words, it existed only on paper. It also included non-budgetary items to inflate the numbers. What’s more, it was a proposed budget surplus for the next ten years and didn’t include much (if any) of the Clinton recession or the 9/11 attacks. And you and I both know that Congress don’t stick to 10 year plans. Oh, and one hint to the lack of a solid existence of it was that nobody could say how much it actually was. Go back and listen to the liberals who trumpeted the surplus that Bush allegedly “squandered”. It’s a different number every time they talk about it, isn’t it?

    Now, about those tax reductions on the wealthiest, would you mind, terribly, explaining who it is that pays taxes? And then there’s this, for example:

    “Federal deficit shrinks due to record tax collections

    WASHINGTON (AP) — The deficit for the first four months of the current budget year is down sharply from the same period a year ago as the government continues to benefit from record levels of tax collections.”
    http://tinyurl.com/yzvpnab

    Well how can that be if the rich weren’t paying their taxes? Naturally, the USA Today won’t tell you how, but it’s the same reason revenues went up when Reagan cut taxes and when Kennedy did the same.

    If you look at the national debt on the Treasury website, the largest increase was in 2004 and was decreasing since then. And yes, Bush was in the process of shrinking the deficit. Now that Chairman Obama is in office, we have real “massive overspending”, massive debt, massive deficit, massive unemployment etc. This is unsustainable, but the left doesn’t seem to care. That’s why all the “racists” are getting ticked off.

    And finally, I’ll ask you to remind us who’s been holding the purse strings since 2007.

  • Rob S.

    “Rob, it’s hard to get by your stupid comments (‘Manchild, “Chairman Obama”) in an effort to have a civil conversation with you regarding policy points. If you don’t think using the term “manchild” as racist, why don’t you ask one of your African American friends what s/he thinks of it.”

    So I did. He thought it was funny and spot on. For good measure, I asked my Hispanic partner. He said pretty much the same thing. No, what’s hard to get by is that you’re wrong and you know it. What’s hard to get by is the fact that folks aren’t keen on being lied to about manufactured “hate” hoaxes. What’s hard to get by is that the party of slavery and segregation, who’ve decimated the black community with their policies, has the audacity to call anybody racist.

    ” It is for those of you in it. What are you going to do to change the image
    of your organization, and do you really care to? ”

    There’s no “image” to change. The left has manufactured an image and despite repeating it over and over again, it’s still not true. No matter how you spin it, YOU’RE the party of hate, racist, sexist, bigot homophobes.

    “The HC bill will soon”

    It’s going to be 2019 before everybody is allegedly covered.

    “-provide incentives for businesses to provide HC insurance for employees”

    Until they realize it’s cheaper not to and take the tax hit instead.

    “-prevent insurance companies from refusing coverage for folks w/ “pre-existing” conditions”

    So did the 1996 HIPAA laws. The reality is that no matter how many stories the liberals made up, it really isn’t that huge of a problem.

    “-prevent insurance companies from cutting off insurance to those that become ill”

    Driving up costs.

    “-start to close the “donut hole,” the gap in prescription coverage negotiated under Bush”

    And require folks to get brand name medication, no generics and still none of the much vaunted Canadian imports.

    “-allow young adults to remain on their parent’s policies until 26YOA”

    God forbid anybody take responsibility for themselves. Keep sponging off mommy and daddy.

    “-see that close to 30 million Americans, previously unserved, will now have access to basic HC services”

    I thought it was 47 million. What about the other 17 million?

    “OOOHHH, you still are howling about the cost… From the CBO:”

    Which ALWAYS under estimates, except when it came to Bush’s Medicare legislation. Can you name any liberal social program that hasn’t cost us beau coup cash, isn’t in danger of collapsing, and/or hasn’t decimated an entire race?

    “It is a sad commentary about our HC system,”

    Knoxville isn’t exactly rural. I thought this would be way up in the hills of TN. That guy that drove 200 miles, how many hospitals, free hospitals, free clinics, county or state clinics did he drive past?

    No, what’s a sad commentary is that we have a political party and their lemmings, who eschew logic in favor of emotion, lying to the American people. What’s sad is that we have a president keen on convincing people that eeeeeevil doctors are out to cut off their legs to make money. We have a president who has to make up stories about people cut off from their insurance when in reality, they were getting the care they needed. We have a political party willing to lie to the American people about how many people are uninsured and why. That’s not only sad, it’s outrageous and fairly near criminal. The people weren’t buying it, but the liberals said “Damn the American people! Ram it through anyway!”

    “How about a Nobel prize winner for you?…”

    For one thing, he promotes the lie that Obama issued tax cuts, which he didn’t. What’s more, the alleged tax cuts are moot anyway with all the taxes coming down the pike. For another thing, Nobel Prizes are pretty much meaningless and have been for quite a while now. I’d be more impressed if someone was elected class president in the third grade.

    Glad you only have a cold and don’t have to start looking for another country where you can actually get treated.

  • KC Hanson

    PS

    I wanted to set this aside in it’s own post, because regardless of you political views, this is important to see if you are passionate about health care issues:

    from CBS/ 60 Minutes – A Must See
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9JmEHsCv4c

  • KC Hanson

    Rob, it’s hard to get by your stupid comments (‘Manchild, “Chairman Obama”) in an effort to have a civil conversation with you regarding policy points. If you don’t think using the term “manchild” as racist, why don’t you ask one of your African American friends what s/he thinks of it.

    Teaparty Impressions

    Your careful sifting of Teaparty video does not prove anything further. The press presents what sells ad time; the more obnoxious, the more likely the viewer will hang w/ a show through ads after the tease.

    The real question is not for me or any of us that look at the Teaparty w/ skepticism and disdain. It is for those of you in it. What are you going to do to change the image
    of your organization, and do you really care to?

    The National Debt

    Even using your National debt numbers of 10.6 trillion (end of Bush era) to 12.7 trillion (occurring soon)… that’s not 83%, and no one needs to yank out a calculator to see it.

    But the thing is, arguing about percentages and how we got to them is fairly meaningless without context. Bush REVERSED the trend of fiscal responsibility when he turned inherited surpluses and an actual debt reduction to massive overspending and reductions in taxes to the wealthiest corps and citizens. Obama got on this train when it was already way out of control.

    And at the same time, the economy must be stimulated, and no, after 8 years of Bush and supply-side theory on steroids, enough of that. Having a fit because Obama is, at a point barely more than a year into his term, unable to address deficits because of the economy BushCo left the country is wholly hypocritical right wing BS.

    Private vs. Public

    Rob, you said; “Yes, but they (private companies/corps.) also have a responsibility to uphold contract agreements they make with the communities they serve. What’s more, they create jobs for people and their shareholders, if the company is public, are people too. Those people are taxpayers too.”

    I’m not going to disagree with you here because you use a very important term: “contract”. By it’s nature, a contract is a form of specific regulation, and depending on the community, and the myriad of variables involved, and the structure and accountability mandated in a contract, a private enterprise may serve specific needs well.

    In your described situation in MS, the local government worked with a private service provider and stipulated certain contractual terms which best served the community, and it turned out a winner.

    This contact, a government contract, actually just about takes us full circle, because, to a large degree, this is how health care reform is structured. Medical providers are and will remain private, but will continue to provide service paid for by the Gov. You and I will continue to disagree about the influence and involvement of Insurance companies, which build the real walls between patients and doctors.

    Which segways me to my final comment, a summation of sorts …

    This TP “outrage” started with Health Care reform, & I’ll close with it.

    The HC bill will soon
    -provide incentives for businesses to provide HC insurance for employees
    -prevent insurance companies from refusing coverage for folks w/ “pre-existing” conditions
    -prevent insurance companies from cutting off insurance to those that become ill
    -start to close the “donut hole,” the gap in prescription coverage negotiated under Bush
    -allow young adults to remain on their parent’s policies until 26YOA
    -see that close to 30 million Americans, previously unserved, will now have access to basic HC services

    These are bad things? You are outraged by this?

    OOOHHH, you still are howling about the cost… From the CBO: ” ..estimates that the net effect (including the reconciliation act) will be a reduction in the federal deficit by $143 billion dollars over the first decade.”#

    # Congressional Budget Office, Cost Estimates for H.R. 4872, Reconciliation Act of 2010 (Final Health Care Legislation) (March 20, 2010).

    Rob, to your specific requests for sites:

    TENT health care

    (Note: I absolutely applaud the energy and efforts of the orgs and volunteers that put these clinics on, esp the RAM teams in the links below. It is a sad commentary about our HC system, that there is a need for them)

    from CBS/ 60 Minutes – A Must See
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9JmEHsCv4c

    http://www.scpr.org/news/2009/.....-inside-i/

    http://legalruralism.blogspot......rural.html

    ECONOMISTS on the Stimulus:

    http://yglesias.thinkprogress......failed.php

    How about a Nobel prize winner for you?…

    http://www.advisorperspectives.....imulus.pdf

    ——

    Now then, be well all. I have spent enough time in this discussion, and since I may finally be recovering from my cold, I need to pull away from the computer .

    KC

  • Steve Luke

    This is an irresponsible article. If you read the title and the first few paragraphs, you would think someone cut the gas line to a man’s home and potentially blew up his house. If you read a little further, you find the truth- a line from a propane tank to a gas grill on a screened in porch was severed. There is no mention of the porch screen being cut for access.

    Extrapolating from this story that all tea party activists are thugs is irresponsible. No one knows who severed the line yet. This is just a desperate attempt to make a story where none exists.

  • Michael Kear

    So, what’s the difference between the Tea Party thugs and Fred Phelps’ Westboro Baptist Church? One is political and one is religious. The Tea Party is more likely to engage in violence. Other than that they sure look a lot alike.

  • Jack

    KC Hanson:
    “You must be entirely misunderstanding my points. I absolutely do not advocate the Gov. ownership of private business. Describing Gov. loan programs as a form of “ownership,” if that is what you are doing, is entirely inaccurate and off-base.”

    No it’s not. When the fed owns the loan and controls pay like they do they are controlling it and owning it.
    It’s all semantic. If I have a business, but you own all the debt and make the financial decisions, my ownership is almost meaningless.
    Not to mention the government recently started selling off shares of CitiCorp it owned.
    Owning stock makes you an owner of that company by definition.

    “Does this mean the kid down the street who’s family is of less means doesn’t at least deserve an adequate education in the public sector?”

    It is quite rare to see a public HS graduate these days that has an education even approaching what I would qualify as adequate.

    “Via your position in this culture, as a white folk, you have been able to be ahead in the game from the get-go. Your attitude is a pervasive example that the equality that has been sought for decades still isn’t there. You actually resent the opportunities afforded to people of another race, mistakenly thinking that you and the parents of those kids have grown into adulthood on an even playing field.”

    Not at all, or even close. My family was blue collar and my father self employed. He grew up in a Catholic orphanage because my grandmother had 12 children and when her husband died could not afford to feed them.
    We all worked very hard for what we have, we were never “ahead of the game.”
    It took the combined work and assets of my father, my grandparents on both sides and myself to put me through school.
    It was all earned.

    Anyone can go out and accomplish what we did. We had no inheritances backing us up and no silver spoon.
    It takes hard, hard work and drive and the common sense to not demand immediate gratification for everything, something no one seems to understand today.

  • Rob S.

    Carlos: you nailed it, my friend. And I can read Spanish better than I can speak it.

    KC: “Your attitude is a pervasive example that the equality that has been sought for decades still isn’t there. ”

    I wonder, where is the “equality” in universities having different standards for different races and sexes in admissions? How is admitting students based on sex and skin color rather than achievement “equal”? Thanks to the party of slavery and segregation trying to erase their White Guilt, no there isn’t “equality” out there.

  • http://none dave varez

    Appreciate your post Carlos.

    But -

    “Everyone writing on this website claiming that Tea Party people are a bunch of racists are the ones who are truly racist and ignorant.”

    I think some are , but I hope that many have simply been misled by an unfortunate Party agenda designed to mislead , which is why I take the time and trouble to post and link here as I do.

    I am not trying to change anybody’s mind about Obama’s policies , just provide facts to be considered and any who dont agree , fine , that is what we are all supposed to be about.

    But I most certainly am trying to change people’s minds about the slander and subterfuge being used against a peaceful political movement (which , I should point out , I have no connection with , and as well , no political connections period) , banded together to protest what they consider bad and onerous financial and social policy.

    Did anybody notice how the story changed about the “arrest” per the “spitting” on a Black Caucus Congressman once the actual video , AND the police report conflicting with the actual claims made by the Democrat operatives was released?

    Or the facts concerning a brick being thrown through a Dem Congressman’s office window
    once it was made known that the office was on the 30th floor of the building?

    Or the Dem plants being “outed” at rallies?

    I’m sure some improper comments and actions have occurred , but they do not represent the actions nor garner the approval and support of the majority ,

    And this occurs on both sides – many incidents can be documented to support this – as all well know is the case ,

    And a concerted , organized , and disingenuous effort is being made by the Dem machine to chastise the many improperly if they can manage to get away with it.

    Regardless of political beliefs , I hope those intending to play fair and having a concience will consider what is being done and not change your politics (though that wouldn’t be a bad idea!) , but refute the repulsive tactics being used
    in the name of what you believe.

  • Carlos

    I am amazed at the ignorance that I see everyday. Everyone writing on this website claiming that Tea Party people are a bunch of racists are the ones who are truly racist and ignorant. I am Cuban born. For the ignorant I will explain what that means. It means that I come from a country where if you express your opinion you are thrown in jail. It also means that I am of mulatto blood. I am not a racist. It is a country where Health Care is free but where you have to show up at the hospital with your own medicine and sheets and food. I see dumb ignorant Black Caucus members praising Fidel Castro because they went to Cuba and he paraded them around and showed them the beautiful country! Stop being stupid! If you really want to know what Cuba is about (Communism) come down to Miami. Find a Cuban restaurant called “La Carreta” at 87th ave and Bird road. Walk in and start interviewing people and why they moved to this country. When Castro came into power all Cubans loved him. After he declared himself communist people still thought he might be a nice guy (just like Obama). My mom begged my dad to leave and he responded, “Are you crazy, I will leave Cuba the day they ration sugar!” My father said this as a joke. Cuba was the largest sugar producer in the world at the time. Two years later my father stood in line to receive his sugar ration and decided it was time to leave the country. I am not a hater. I am a Catholic missionary as a matter of fact. Teach a man to fish, give him his dignity. Giving people a handout is Charity, making them dependent on your handouts is Evil. This country was born of independent, hardworking, religous people that came here to live in a society of tolerance. That’s who we imigrants are! You who take the American way of life for granted are destroying it. Wake up and go to a real Tea Party. I challenge you. I was there last year and I was not abused. I was praised and congratulated. Do not let people fill you with fear and hatred of a Tea Party. Come and understand that a Tea Party is about protecting this country. If you don’t believe that I am Cuban because of my perfect English then read this in Spanish if you can!

    Ustedes son unos ignorantes. Fidel Catsro es un monstruo. El mata a todos que van en contra de el. Salven a sus pais y encuentrense conmigo en un Tea Party, Socio!

  • Rob S.

    Ooops! Forgot this one:

    “Let me be very clear: privatization MEANS for-profit companies operating the show. By law, it’s a corporation’s responsibility to make money for its shareholders.”

    Yes, but they also have a responsibility to uphold contract agreements they make with the communities they serve. What’s more, they create jobs for people and their shareholders, if the company is public, are people too. Those people are taxpayers too.

  • Rob S.

    KC,
    I was merely demonstrating how public services do change. I grew up in a small town outside Jackson, MS. Our ambulance service was provided by JFD and one would usually have to wait 15-20 minutes for an ambulance to arrive. The county requested that an ambulance be stationed in my town so wait times could be reduced. The government, who provided the service, refused. So the county went with a private ambulance company. To my knowledge, they still provide the service.

    ” I suggest you turn off Faux news and do a little of your own research… ”

    I don’t watch Fox or any other news and haven’t for at least 6 years. I sift through the news on my own and have done my own research. On very rare occasions, I have watched Bay News 9 (CNN affiliate) for local news, but that’s once every other blue moon.

    Do you think, perhaps, I should watch the lilly white MSDNC who gets off on finding racism where there isn’t any? Maybe I should the bloated Ed Schultz who once said that Babe Ruth wasn’t that great of a ball player because he didn’t have to compete with “the bruthas”.

    “Your conflating numbers… Your 83% is the 2009 comparison of debt to GDP”

    Actually, I looked at the national debt from 20 January 2001-20 January 2009 and, with a calculator, found an increase of 53%. Then I looked at the national debt from 20 January 2009 – 1 April 2010 and, with a calculator, found an increase of 83%. I don’t see how I conflated anything nor compared debt to GDP.

    “But I can look out the window as I type and see the roadwork occurring and jobs created by the Stimulus money.”

    Did you open the window and ask how many of them were employed before the democrat slush fund was passed? I can tell you that my job was “saved or created” last year and I still haven’t found a job. I don’t have to look out my window to see that Florida’s unemployment has increased since the passage of the slush fund.

    “Trying to blame Obama for the explosion of the National debt is like trying to blame the body shop for not being able to straighten the frame of a wreck.”

    You admit that he’s spending tons of money, yet maintain that he has nothing to do with the national debt. How does that work?

    “But, it is as clear as the teapartier signs depicting Obama as an African tribesman that there is significant amount of racism exhibiting itself in the movement. This kind of image is not simply a “comment exhibiting disenchantment with Obama policies”.”

    One of the benefits of sifting through the news on your own is that you find out that the folks who hold the signs liberals say are racist Republicans are actually the Larouche folks. Remember that link I posted above to the ZombieTime blog? In one instance, last year, there was a fellow at a town hall holding a sign like that who was later seen handing out pamphlets for the local dem representative. Of course that doesn’t make it on the lilly white MSDNC because it doesn’t fit their narrative of the allegedly racist TEA party folks.

    Nor will they tell you that the guy in Houston with the sign that said Congress is the slave masters and the tax payers are the “Niggars” was ejected by the TEA party folks. But that doesn’t fit their narrative either, so you don’t learn about that.

    “A good number of economists actually recommend this short term debt increase specifically to help rebound the economy.”

    Instead of repeating this meme, why not tell us who these economists are? And while you’re at it, why not provide evidence of these medical tent cities?

    And how is describing Chairman Obama as a spoiled little child “racist” in any way? Except that any criticism of him is deemed “racist”.

  • KC Hanson

    From jack, “To KC Hanson:
    Private and public sector are two different animals. Your argument is a red herring.
    The government should not be in the business of owning private businesses. This has nothing to do with the act of loaning money.”

    You must be entirely misunderstanding my points. I absolutely do not advocate the Gov. ownership of private business. Describing Gov. loan programs as a form of “ownership,” if that is what you are doing, is entirely inaccurate and off-base.

    Jack continued:

    “As far as defunding schools goes you’re really out there. The local school system where I live spends WAY more than I spent on private education per child. They get horrible results while I get good results…”

    My response; good for you and your kids. Clearly, you are of sufficient means to be able to significantly invest in your kids education, and you are to be commended for it.
    Does this mean the kid down the street who’s family is of less means doesn’t at least deserve an adequate education in the public sector?

    A far as spending comparisons, you can no more say I am off base, and assume facts about my geographic area, than I can about yours. Education HAS been increasingly underfunded in my state over the last generation. Programs have been slashed, schools have been closed, and teachers and parents are spending more of their own money to support their kids’ education.

    It is fine and good for you to be able to opt out, but fewer families have that capability,

    As far as a dollar for dollar comparison between public and private costs per student, your spending may or may not be an actual reflection of cost per student the school has available. Most private schools have endowments and investments that dramatically reduce the actual cost a family pays for the child’s education. Public school districts generally describe their entire budgets in terms of cost per student.

    Finally you reveal yourself, though, in this statement:

    “Now, since we are white folks, we do not get all kinds of bogus scholarships that are race based. All of theirs are earned through academic performance.”

    First of all, there are a myriad of scholarships available to kids that fit specific descriptions, from every walk of life and practically every cultural heritage.

    Via your position in this culture, as a white folk, you have been able to be ahead in the game from the get-go. Your attitude is a pervasive example that the equality that has been sought for decades still isn’t there. You actually resent the opportunities afforded to people of another race, mistakenly thinking that you and the parents of those kids have grown into adulthood on an even playing field.

    You haven’t.

  • jack

    To KC Hanson:
    Private and public sector are two different animals. Your argument is a red herring.
    The government should not be in the business of owning private businesses. This has nothing to do with the act of loaning money.

    As far as defunding schools goes you’re really out there. The local school system where I live spends WAY more than I spent on private education per child. They get horrible results while I get good results.
    Here is a good example. I have three children. All have been privately schooled for less than the feds and locals spend.
    Oldest is currently getting a doctorate on a 100% free ride scholarship he earned.
    The second is finishing his BS now and after his earned scholarships etc, his college education will have cost a total of about 12,000.
    My third is headed to college next year. He already has most of it paid through scholarships.
    Now, since we are white folks, we do not get all kinds of bogus scholarships that are race based. All of theirs are earned through academic performance.

    All of them have attended or will be attending Tier One schools.

  • http://none dave varez

    KC , you didn’t focus on the point I made that the teaparty people are not enthused with Bush spending either , and so it is not the case that they “just noticed ” this. Even now , they often mention Bush spending.

    “you will be considered guilty until proven innocent by many.”

    Once again , you are extrapolating assumptions about the many based on the few , and then , reversing the concept of justice we live by per your quote above – which I’m sure you would quote in the reverse if you were the accused.

    Racism exists. Less than it used to , but still the case. Per the point “EM” made a few posts up ,
    why are we focusing on the racism of a few , which we know exists , to comprise an entire movement based on a philosophical and financial governmental agenda having nothing to do with race?

    Do I have to go and provide you links pertaining to the horrible racism aimed at Condi Rice , Clarence Thomas , and Colin Powell when the “racist” Republicans elevated these Black Americans to positions never before held by any ,
    including by liberal Democrat administrations?

    Were all those racist comments by liberals less racist or credible than the ones you refer to now?

    Should I consider all Libs “guilty until proven innocent” in those cases?

    I think that would be totally inappropriate to do , and I didn’t even want to quote Obama’s comments which I did , accompanied by my qualification that he of course meant nothing violent ,

    But you cant take issues that do exist unilaterally and attribute them to only one side where a small percent exhibit bad behavior and not expect the obvious rebuke that

    1) it is a tiny minority not supported or representative of the many , and

    2) YOUR SIDE can be depicted similarly if you insist on using this bogus issue as “credible” to point out that yeah , there’s nuts on either side – so what? , and surprise surprise.

    “I would bet that Obama wouldn’t even dream of making this metaphor in today’s intense environment. Context is important.”

    I have to wonder if you wish you could have deleted that comment?

    Who decides when it’s ok? When a Lib attack is ongoing against Conservatives , Obama should be careful what he says , otherwise it’s ok?

    And interpreting Palin’s self proclaimed non violence as violent anyway is ok , but Obama’s not?

    So Palin pointing out that she is referring to elections and votes , not violence , doesn’t count per your “context is important”?

    As for healthcare , nobody – NOBODY – is against changes and reform , and coverage for the poor.

    The argument is in how it is done , my opinion being that this legislation is financially onerous and crushing.

    And trial lawyers , sc – bags like Edwards can still extract onerous sums from medical providers , because NOTHING has been done about that , other than a few words saying “harumph , we’ll , uh , have to “look into that”.

  • KC Hanson

    I said:

    “Bush DOUBLED the National debt in only 8 years from 5.7 trillion to well over 11 trillion dollars.

    “… and NOW the teapartiers notice! Sheesh!”

    Dave said:

    KC , this comment exemplifies the fact that many who are demeaning people and groups are not even versed in their composition and agenda.

    Comments exhibiting disenchantment with Obama policies elicits responses such as “racist”

    My response:

    I have acknowledged that some teapartiers will disavow themselves from the racism and racist overtones of the teaparty movement. But, it is as clear as the teapartier signs depicting Obama as an African tribesman that there is significant amount of racism exhibiting itself in the movement. This kind of image is not simply a “comment exhibiting disenchantment with Obama policies”.

    Even Rob’s crack above (“manchild”) clearly reflects a pervasive racist thread.

    If you are not like this, fine, but if you choose to associate yourself with teapartiers, you will be considered guilty until proven innocent by many.

    You may feel like the Teaparty is not getting a fair shake in the press, because the press always focuses on the most obnoxious, disgusting visual images and little on the group’s policy and agenda. I am of 2 minds on this; 1) those folks with the signs, carrying the guns, etc… are there to get the attention and presenting EXACTLY the image they want the press to see. 2) Folks in the TP movement who don’t like this image should either work to change the movement from w/in or simply get out and try to work another way.

    Don’t count on the press to change; they will always put their cameras on the most vile in the group.

    Oh, and I did check out the link you left regarding the knife comment by Obama. There wasn’t a video link, so I still couldn’t get the full context. I’m not really thrilled with the allusion, but what struck me most was that this was way back in June 2008, well before folks really started arming themselves (and even before Palin became a household name).

    I would bet that Obama wouldn’t even dream of making this metaphor in today’s intense environment. Context is important.

  • KC Hanson

    I had asked:

    “Rob, are you aren’t advocating private fire services for all purposes are you?”

    Rob said:

    Why not? If they can do the job and save the tax payers some money, sure. Services change all the time depending on the needs of the community. An example of this change, while not an example of private companies, several towns in my county have dumped their own police departments in favor of the sheriff’s office. They can do the same job for less money. What’s more, if communities can get fire service without paying union protection money, why so much the better.

    My response: You said it yourself, Rob, Sheriffs Depts. ARE public, so there is really no analogy here, and I agree, depending on the area size of cities, towns and counties, this may be appropriate. This is a far cry from privatization.

    Let me be very clear: privatization MEANS for-profit companies operating the show. By law, it’s a corporation’s responsibility to make money for its shareholders. Basic fire services and law enforcement should never be handed over to such an entity because the primary goal is the dollar.

    This is not to say that private sector security and fire service specialty companies should not exist. Enhanced security systems provided by private companies are (sadly) essential needs in many instances and for most businesses. I have already noted that specialty services provided by private fire suppression firms are critical in various sectors.

    I further asked:

    “Do you think any American should be able to access proper, basic health care,”

    Rob answerd:

    “blahblahblah, yakity smakity.

    “Contrary to popular liberal belief, the American people DO have access to proper, basic health care.”

    My response:

    Well, Rob neither comment will win you any debate points. I don’t have to respond in kind to your kindergartenism, and if you think the American public is well served, you are living in a cocoon, and anything I say will have no impact on you. I suggest you turn off Faux news and do a little of your own research… perhaps do a little Google search and find out about the tent city health clinics that infrequently pop up in order to serve citizens that have no health care access.

    Rob said:

    If you rounded the 10.6 trillion to 11, why didn’t you round the 5.7 to 6? While the debt increased 53% while Bush was in office, it has increased 83% while the Man-child Candidate has been in office (through April 1).

    My response:

    Your conflating numbers… Your 83% is the 2009 comparison of debt to GDP.. Yes, the National debt has grown more since Obama has been in office, (almost 12.7 trillion right now) Do you actually think you can stop a runaway train on a dime? Commitments by Bush & company (wars, tax cuts to the rich, bank bailout) plus accelerating interest because of the outrageous spending 2001-1008 are still making it’s mark.

    Yes, the current admin is spending more borrowed money and this is contributing to the debt. But I can look out the window as I type and see the roadwork occurring and jobs created by the Stimulus money. A good number of economists actually recommend this short term debt increase specifically to help rebound the economy.

    Trying to blame Obama for the explosion of the National debt is like trying to blame the body shop for not being able to straighten the frame of a wreck.

    But really, I have tried to have a decent conversation with you and you come up with “blahblahblah” and “manchild”.

    It is clear that you are entrenched in your own biases, and you have little interest in the broader community of Americans working together to find solutions to the country’s significant problems. It’s your way or the highway. You minimize the damage the Bush Admin. wrought, and you demean the current admin., and yes “manchild” IS racist, but I doubt that concerns you.

    Obviously, this conversation has gone as far as it can.

  • Em

    I’m overwhelmed and saddened. All these responses are on the SPLC site…you know, “Fighting Hate • Teaching Tolerance”?

    If this space is riddled with hate and intolerance, then what hope is there for the rest of America, not to mention the world?

    (I wish the hurtful comments didn’t overshadow the rest.)

  • Rob S.

    Who was it who said “the weak justification of ‘ha, you did it too!’”???

  • http://none dave varez

    “Bush DOUBLED the National debt in only 8 years from 5.7 trillion to well over 11 trillion dollars.

    … and NOW the teapartiers notice! Sheesh!”

    KC , this comment exemplifies the fact that many who are demeaning people and groups are not even versed in their composition and agenda.

    Comments exhibiting disenchantment with Obama policies elicits responses such as “racist” -

    But the fact that the same ilk of comments , attributable directly to Bush spending policies , have been made as well – is unknown!

    In the zeal to demean as a strategic vehicle , the evidence that the agenda is anti-spending , and not personal or even political , goes unnoticed.

  • Rob S.

    “Rob, are you aren’t advocating private fire services for all purposes are you?”

    Why not? If they can do the job and save the tax payers some money, sure. Services change all the time depending on the needs of the community. An example of this change, while not an example of private companies, several towns in my county have dumped their own police departments in favor of the sheriff’s office. They can do the same job for less money. What’s more, if communities can get fire service without paying union protection money, why so much the better.

    “Do you think the system is really working well as it is, and if not, what would be your alternative?”

    Currently, it could use some fixing. The biggest reform that we need is to get the government the hell out of the way. That’s where a lot of the costs come into play. My favorite alternative was the one put forth by the CEO of Whole Foods in the WSJ last year. Thing is, that would work best if the people were allowed to keep more of their own money.

    “Do you think any American should be able to access proper, basic health care,” blahblahblah, yakity smakity.

    Contrary to popular liberal belief, the American people DO have access to proper, basic health care.

    “Further, your rant about public schools does seem to employ typical republican process… Completely de-fund schools and than bitch and moan about how lousy they are.”

    [Citation Needed]

    “Bush DOUBLED the National debt in only 8 years from 5.7 trillion to well over 11 trillion dollars.
    and NOW the teapartiers notice! Sheesh!”

    If you rounded the 10.6 trillion to 11, why didn’t you round the 5.7 to 6? While the debt increased 53% while Bush was in office, it has increased 83% while the Man-child Candidate has been in office (through April 1).

    Sheesh indeed.

  • http://none dave varez

    Snorlax:
    “Obama was born in the US.
    Anybody saying otherwise is INSANE.
    Someone call the men in white to come pick up Dave Varez.”
    Bring the straitjacket.”
    ““Frankly, I’m sick and tired of you un-American teabagger traitors constantly bashing our great Nation and our President.”

    Snorlax , you are a nasty , angry , H-AT-E-F-U-L person , you offer nothing of any value to the debate , and you attempt to force your views on others .

    I feel that Obama has not adequately addressed the issue of his birth. I do not know if he was born here or not.

    Your insults and ignorance are only a reflection on yourself and your positions rather than on others who attempt to delineate their views pursuant to intelligent debate.

    You remind me of the liberal who angrily bit off the finger of an old man because he dared to oppose this healthcare legislation. Was that you?

    See you at the next elections.
    You can reference the Massachusetts Senate race for a sneak preview.

    Note: In your haste to respond ignorantly , you failed to address my point that not one poll indicates a majority in favor of this legislation -

    The Massachusetts election being the major operant “poll”.

  • KC Hanson

    jack…

    By your logic, No loan program should EVER be employed, by ANY entity, public or private, because yes, they do have to run by specific standards. Borrowers must make certain payments with a certain amount of interest and meet certain deadlines.

    Further, your rant about public schools does seem to employ typical republican process… Completely de-fund schools and than bitch and moan about how lousy they are. This is exactly what the R admins have done to the good ol’ USA – Bush DOUBLED the National debt in only 8 years from 5.7 trillion to well over 11 trillion dollars.

    … and NOW the teapartiers notice! Sheesh!

  • jack

    “Loan programs are not Government takeovers. (Not that I am thrilled w. the bank bailouts, mind you, considering they made money for themselves and have mostly refused to provide loans)”

    Absolute bull. You have a government official setting pay standards and otherwise controlling that company.
    Those who own your debt own you, no different with companies than individuals.

    Snorlax:
    Yep, those great public schools. Have you checked where our rankings versus the rest of the world are now and have been going?
    Yep, endlessly down.
    The public schools here are an abysmal failure. Doesn’t take too long to figure out why when you start looking at who is involved: politicians, bureaucrats, teachers unions, activist groups and mostly worthless teachers that have no education in anything except worthless “Education” majors.

    “Graduating” HS today is really not much of an achievement. It just means you showed up. Why do you think all colleges and uni’s now have “remedial” courses for no credit?

    “GM got dropped in the taxpayers laps because it went under.”
    Really? Where is the constitutional authority that says if a private entity is failing you have the right to use tax money to take it over?
    Let me guess, the “general welfare” clause you folks endlessly misunderstand and deliberately misuse.

    I could use a bail out in this economy and have paid lots of taxes, where’s mine! I employ other people and it would be for the “general welfare” that I do not add them to the unemployment line.
    (Just for points, the last thing I want is more government in my life.)

    “Frankly, I’m sick and tired of you un-American teabagger traitors constantly bashing our great Nation and our President.”
    You’ll be REAL sick and tired in November. Calling out the truth about our schools and death spiral is not bashing,
    Our president has EARNED that bashing.

  • KC Hanson

    Loan programs are not Government takeovers. (Not that I am thrilled w. the bank bailouts, mind you, considering they made money for themselves and have mostly refused to provide loans)

    ————-

    Specialized firefighting services such as those that deal with oil rig fires (think Kuwait) are a different animal than public fire services. Fire suppression at airports is clearly site specific and deals w/ specific suppression needs, mostly w incidents involving highly volatile aviation fuel AND with immediate evacuation needs.

    Wildland fires of any significant size always are comprised of crews from a myriad of sectors – from the Forest Service Hotshots and type 2 crews, to the private contractors w/ water trucks and specific skills.

    All of these situations require either specialized capabilities and/or long term support and suppression organization… These structures have developed over time as the needs were addressed, and I certainly wouldn’t advocate a wholesale change.

    Rob, are you aren’t advocating private fire services for all purposes are you?

    BTW, to play this analogy out to the fullest, a combination of public and private services seems to work best in the realm of fire disasters.. Even in the case of single payer (which is a LOOOONG way from this reform bill), the PROVIDERS are still private, and folks would still be able to access a myriad of specialized services privately.

    (No, folks on the left do not want taxpayer $ to go for nose jobs.)

    But Rob, I have a couple of questions for you and others who are so adamantly opposed to health care reform.

    Do you think the system is really working well as it is, and if not, what would be your alternative?

    Do you think any American should be able to access proper, basic health care, or do you indeed think that health care IS a commodity that should only be accessed by those that can afford it? If not, how will their health care needs be met?

    Finally, Rob, you made this remark:

    “The whole “Fire departments are SOCIALIST” argument is just as ignorant as the left’s argument that auto insurance is mandated.”

    I don’t know if this was directed at me or if you were just on a bit of a rant; for the record….

    I don’t use the auto insurance comparison because its not applicable… No, I don’t see driving as a basic right, but as a privilege that comes with responsibilities.

    And this is what I said about fire services…

    “Society, i.e. Gov., provides for certain services that are regarded as the commons – police and fire services, public access to clean water, the infrastructure of the entire transportation system.”

    Frankly, I don’t care if “socialist” is used to describe these services or not; the term itself elicits such venom that conversation and debate gets relegated to the back burner.

    I know blogs are a place to rant and cyber yell and call one another names, but I really do prefer conversation and debate… Sometimes we find common ground, and often find where we are going to agree to disagree.

    I think its pretty critical that folks ratchet down the inflammatory speech at all levels, on all sides, and engage in dialogue. Unfortunately, I know it’ll get a whole lot worse before it gets better and ratcheting up is always more easy than down…

    Dave, I will check out the link… I gotta get to work

  • Rob S.

    GM didn’t go bankrupt until after the government takeover and, if I’m not mistaken, after Chairman Obama replaced the CEO.

    My my, Snorlax. I do believe that’s some of the “hatred” and “bigotry” you libs have been whining about and projecting on others.