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Hatewatch is managed by the staff of the Intelligence Report, an investigative magazine published by the Alabama-based civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center.
Calling All Thugs: Gas Line Cut After Tea Party Leader Posts Enemy’s Address
The latest news from the opponents of health care reform who like to suggest that supporters should suffer for their transgressions: A day after two Virginia Tea Party activists posted the address of the brother of a congressman who voted for the bill, authorities discovered that someone had severed a gas line at the man’s home.
According to The Daily Progress of Charlottesville, Va., Danville Tea Party leader Nigel Coleman was one of the two people who posted the address of Bo Perriello, the older brother of U.S. Rep. Tom Perriello (D-Ivy), who voted for the health care bill. “This is Rep. Thomas Stuart Perriello’s home address,” Coleman wrote Monday, going on to suggest that others who oppose the health care bill “drop by” and “express their thanks.” He added, “I ain’t holding back no more.”
According to the Politico website, Coleman, upon learning he had posted the wrong address, said on a blog: “Do you mean I posted his brother’s address on my Facebook? Oh well, collateral damage.”
Told by The Daily Progress of the severing of the line that connected a propane tank to a grill on Perriello’s screened-in porch, Coleman said he was “shocked” and “almost speechless.” He claimed innocently that he was against violence, and in any case wasn’t sure that the attack, which is under FBI investigation, was related to his post.
Coleman’s absolutely despicable actions were remarkably similar to those of American neo-Nazi leaders who in recent years have made a practice of posting their enemies’ addresses and other personal information. They, too, often suggested that their sympathizers drop by to let enemies know their feelings. But that certainly didn’t stop Coleman from engaging in his own mindless and dangerous provocation.
The news of Coleman’s post and its apparent result followed boasts earlier in the week from Mike Vanderboegh, a former Alabama militia leader who last Friday called on enemies of health reform to smash the windows of local Democratic Party headquarters around the country. Vanderboegh’s threatening blog post, which suggested that civil war could be around the corner, was followed by bricks or stones being thrown through party offices in three states. The offices of two Democratic congressmen in New York and Arizona were similarly attacked.
As if that wasn’t enough, opponents of health care legislation demonstrating in Washington, D.C., this weekend spit on a black congressman, shouted racial slurs at two others, and shouted an anti-gay epithet at yet another. A week earlier, a group at a Tea Party in Columbus, Ohio, taunted a man sitting on the ground with a sign saying he had Parkinson’s disease. “If you’re looking for a handout,” one of the protesters told the health care reform supporter in a scene captured on video and posted to YouTube, “you’re in the wrong end of town.”
These despicable attacks and those who help foment them are unworthy of any citizen of a democracy, let alone of those who pretend to be standing up for principled conservatism. What we are seeing is the infuriated response of thugs and those who like to encourage thugs. And what may be most appalling of all is the absolute temerity, not to say cowardice, of supposedly responsible leaders of those who opposed health care reform, almost none of whom have condemned the latest round of hate. It’s a sad commentary on America that this is what our political process has become.
on March 24th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
It’s time to start making arrests.
on March 24th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
This is a frightening development, and I have to say unexpected. It looks like the scariest, most ignorant racist elements of our society are not only much larger than I imagined, but that they were just looking for a cause to surreptitiously organize around after the election of President Obama and they found it in health care reform. It could have been anything. It’s just an excuse to carry out their small-minded hate-filled plans.
on March 24th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
it’s way past time for arrests.
well written, mark…in this time of hate-speak and hateful actions, people who hear it—speak out against it! Don’t just walk away! Correct the behavior! Let these thugs know that we won’t stand for it!
A great man once said, “it is not your responsibility to finish the task, neither is it your right not to take it up”.
Prejudice is an emotional commitment to ignorance!!! (Nathan Rutstein)
on March 24th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
It’s becoming alarmingly obvious that these individuals and groups are blurring the line between conservative views and fanatical conservatism. As far as I am aware, conservative view points call for a hard line approach towards criminals, and in this case in particular, I’d be more than happy if the authorities obliged them.
on March 24th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
This is terrorism, pure and simple, and should be treated as such. Where’s homeland security when they’re needed – off harassing kids marching against this inane ongoing war or spying on people at the library instead of collecting the truly violent gun-toting tea beggars and hauling them off to Gitmo or some other hidden hole in the ground for a little waterboarding. JK – I’m not in favor of torture even when it’s well deserved. We do need a special prison for these people, so they don’t infect the rest of the prison population with their idiotic rantings.
on March 24th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
When something serious happens (and at this point it’s inevitable), what then? What will these clowns say? When the ghost of McVeigh comes around,will they applaud it? Would they have championed McVeigh himself?
What is their end game? Seriously…at this point, what do they see happening? “Another civil war”?? That’s laughable but how much fear mongering are we going to stand for?
Enough.
on March 24th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
I just watched an episode of Law and Order similar to this! People would post info on a website about people doing bad things and someone ended up getting killed after his address and security was was published. Doesn’t seem like it so fictional anymore!
on March 24th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Veterans of the Movement in the 50′s, 60′s,etc. have seen this before. This is “normal” in America when you try to make a change. THAT’S WHY some of us said take it slow…step by step. If you did anything more “socialist”, these people would already be planting what McVey did. This is bound to grow until there are death(s). Sorry, but that’s how our Great Country works!
on March 24th, 2010 at 3:58 pm
The truth is, many of these Tea Baggers are Klan and Neo-Nazis. There just not wearing hoods and swastika armbands.
on March 24th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
This is outrageous and very frightening. I am truly afraid of what will happen once Obama takes up the problem of immigration reform.
It’s getting to the point where I am seriously considering changing my name when I comment on Hatewatch or other forums. What has this country become when decent caring citizens have to fear repurcussion just for speaking up for what they feel is right and will help America?
I’ve noticed lately that several organizations that send me literature (including SPLC) write only “personal correspondence” on their envelopes. My husband & I were speculating this is done for just such a reason – to protect us from haters.
The hate is not new – as soon as we put our last name on the mailbox in our old apartment in Chicago, a swastika was painted on our doorstep. What IS new is the openess & unabashedness of some of these people…….including some of the TV “commentators”.
We all need to be vigilant and report on and/or confront (when safe) hate speech. Our freedom depends on this.
on March 24th, 2010 at 4:17 pm
Totally misplaced aggression. Where is the outrage against the insurance companies skyrocketing premiums, denying coverage, big pharma waste & exploitation, military contractors with sweet deals ripping off public $$? Perhaps more (white) people will just have to die until more families are affected & they/we contradictions of SES are blurred. Harder to throw bricks thru Cigna’s walled off fortresses with security & cameras, then a few puny storefront Congress rep offices:) chicken thugs
on March 24th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
Its those who have the same love for “socialism” who spit on me and called me “baby killer” when I was in JROTC (high school) during the 70s. I’m speaking to this forum only to remind you that people act irrationally when faced with emotional issues. Tea Party members are comprised mostly of people who put their pants on the same way you do. They just dont want you or the government telling them they cant or they must do… What they want is for the government to protect them from those who would impose such opression. I for one of most Tea Party advocates condem any agressive act against anyone. Whoever commits a crime against another should be held accountable. Please dont reply with race comments, my wife is black. Dont call me a redneck, I’m a California native. Dont call me a gun carrying Nazi, I condem socializm. Do you know why McVey did what he did? I too condem “what” he did, but also understand “why”. Can you use any other bad analogies using David Koresh as an example or should you simply endorse Rule of Law = Democrat party rules.
on March 24th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
Mark,
You’re right! There is no need for name calling….however, regardless of why McVey thought he had the right to do what he did, ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law. I just question, how can a group such as this, claim they are for the people – and babies/children – yet, McVey killed how many babies/children?
Being from California, then you know the problems happening in Hemet – people are targeting the Hemet Police Department. Today, several city cars were torched!
Tea Party or not, there are rules and laws. However, this country for the longest time have used those laws to punish minorities to the fullest extent of the law, meanwhile, creating monsters out of the white society, actually. White can commit the same crimes as non-whites, yet, white continue, and expect to receive a slap on the wrist. As a Californian, you’ve must have seen that recently, a Black and Latino suspects in different police situations were shot in the head – name one, please name one White suspect shot in the head!
on March 24th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
The extreme-right wing mind of the so-called tea party movement, it seems, will stop at nothing in their ignorant mindset, to turn America into a thocracy, a corporacy, a confederacy….anything but a democracy. How can “rights, freedoms” be justified when in these and similiar names be used to deny others of these same qualities? They hide behind a mask of hate to deny others, now seemingly regardless of race, gender, religious beliefs. They openly say that “liberal and communsim” will destroy America……if they really want to see the monster that truly threatens, maybe they should grab a mirror.
on March 24th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
OMG! Please, let’s call this what it is and it’s pure racism & hatred of all things not white, southern, christian. It has nothing to do with people being frustrated, or mad, or anything else. They are scared and pissed off that we have a black President. They are terrorist cowards and should be treated as such. When are people going to realize the terrorists are right here in our front yards not in some far away place. It’s very real and it’s very scary and I fear for President Obama and others that have worked so hard for health care, and all the other very important social issues they will undertake. Thank you SPLC for all the hard work you do to track these thugs and bring them to justice. The Republicans are helping to insight this horrible rhetoric and they need to be held accountable for their behavior.
on March 24th, 2010 at 8:47 pm
This is domestic terrorism, and it should be treated as such. I lived with this kind of thinking and behavior in Alabama for six (6) years — it came from university professors, community leaders, church members, doctors and nurses, teachers, economists, etc. who used their positions to teach others to think and act like terrorists. Because I observed this daily, I would say this way of thinking and acting characterizes too many people in the US — enough that American values and society are seriously threatened. Moreover, academic research establishes that these attitudes and behaviors affect American foreign relations, and thereby put the whole country at risk. Policymakers, Homeland Security, FBI, CIA, NSA — all of you must address this threat to the United States, and establish peace and stability.
on March 24th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
While I understand that change evokes emotion, it doesn’t give anyone license to commit acts of terror – because that IS what they are when threatening and acting against those who think and support different issues than they do. That is unconstitutional. If these things were happening during a Republican administration, there would be arrests, prosecutions and “examples” made of those who acted like this.
I try to peacefully confront ignorance when I see it, which is often, but I will not put my family and friends at risk. We must unite for civility and respectful disagreement if need be.
on March 25th, 2010 at 5:32 am
First of all, these acts of violence/vandalism are shameful. I would like to point out though:
“Coleman’s absolutely despicable actions were remarkably similar to those of American neo-Nazi leaders who in recent years have made a practice of posting their enemies’ addresses and other personal information.”
ACORN and SEIU did the same with the information on AIG executives last year. Gay activist groups (I’m gay, BTW) do the same. After the Prop 8 kerfuffle in CA., people opposed to gay marriage had their information posted. Same thing has happened in other states. I’ve seen many examples of people’s jobs or businesses threatened, even other gays, because they opposed gay activist groups. I know there’s a difference between picketing and threats or cutting someone’s LP line, but it’s reasonable to believe that the fear is still there.
I’m not saying that all of these threats are false, but the left has a habit of manufacturing some of these things. There was a representative, I think from Washington, who made a false claim of a death threat during the town halls last summer. Maurice Schwenkler, a democrat activist, was arrested for vandalizing the DNC hQ in Denver last year. Not to mention there’s quite a list of people who manufactured incidences of vandalism, painted racial epithets and swastikas and nooses. There was also, during the town halls, a fellow who posed as a TEA partier with an Obama = Hitler sign who was later seen handing out pamphlets for a local democrat. I think that was in Oklahoma, if I’m not mistaken. Too tired to look.
At any rate, I take these things with a grain of salt. I know those democrats who’ve received the threats can’t and they shouldn’t. However, I don’t see much point in getting all worked up about it myself. I sure don’t see any reason for calling Americans “racist” with ZERO evidence, especially when there are black, Hispanic, gay and Asian TEA Partiers. Nor is there any reason to lash out and call them “neo-Nazis”. That’s just plain irresponsible and shows your own intolerance.
on March 25th, 2010 at 8:10 am
Great dialog, thought provoking. The bottom line is that wrong is wrong and should not be tolerated at any level for anyone. To skinny: one of my soldiers (and friend), a fine man, husband, father, and San Diego peace officer was shot in the head…point blank, by a trusted Afghan police counterpart. He was trying to mentor his counterpart on the rule of law believing in principles that promote peace and prosperity for all. Those principles did not die with him, nor did the reality that all things are not equal. Many American citizens are angry with their representatives for not following those principles. They feel betrayed and more so cheated. The majority of those citizens are acting responsibly as am I by sharing my opinion here, peacefully, respectfully. As you refer to abuse of power and racial bias, consider those abuses to the rule of law by the lawmakers themselves. Imagine how “wrong” could be tolerated and we the people, without recourse, are subjected to it. Do not get the issues crossed. Anger over our representatives abuse of the rule of law and race are distinct. As for me, the bigger issue now is in regard to the rule of law. I believe that without it, racism will run amuck. VR
on March 25th, 2010 at 10:27 am
I would remind all of you that the Nazis claimed that the sterlization of “undesirables” and the extermination of the Jews would make a better society.
There was no popular vote – I’m sure most people would have opposed it if they had been given the chance to vote on it.
Now, we have a president and members of Congress that are mandating health care for everyone for the ends of making a better society. They did it in the face of open opposition from a majority of Americans.
So, what will you say if they decide that the poor need to be sterilized to make a better society? That’s what Margaret Sanger advocated.
So, once they decide that it’s okay to sterilize the poor, then if they decide that some other group needs to be sterlized or even euthanized, are you going to oppose them?
Even if you oppose them, will they listen to you?
They didn’t listen this time – what makes you think they will listen later?
And don’t answer that you’re on their side – Remember old Uncle Joe Stalin?
He killed off all of his former friends and comrades when he thought they might be a problem.
So, what’s to stop you from becoming the next problem for society?
And I find it quite ironic that I see wailing about “racism” and “hate” and other prejudices, then multiple claims that every member of the Tea Party is a white christian from the south, a racist, a haters, etc.
Oh yeah, and when Dick Cheney (who I am no fan of) claimed that people who opposed the Patriot Act are unpatriotic, your side of the world was up in arms.
Now that many people oppose health care, you claim they’re racists and haters.
Is the pot calling the kettle black?
on March 25th, 2010 at 10:50 am
“Dont call me a gun carrying Nazi, I condem socializm.”
I’ll call you ignorant for thinking of the Nazi’s as socialists.
on March 25th, 2010 at 11:43 am
John, your just plain full of crap. They did not do anything “in the face of open opposition from a majority of Americans.” as you fantasize.
What they did do was pass a health care reform bill that the majority of American’s want. It was passed by a majority of the senate, and a majority of the house, after being campaigned on heavily by a President that won the largest popular vote in American history. Obviously you don’t believe in democracy of the American way of life.
on March 25th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Glad this has appeared in your email. The whole mess is alarming. Thanks to the Teabaggers and Sarah Palin for starting up another hate group. I wonder when they will bring out their white robes and hats!!
on March 25th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
@John
You provide a good example of the typical teabagger argument: A bunch of kooky ranting and raving about nazis, forced-sterilization, Stalin, etc and zero factual detail about anything of any relevance to the actual policy. All the while making phony claims about “the support of the majority”.
And there is nothing”ironic” about calling a bunch of redneck thugs redneck thugs. It’s called “truth”.
on March 25th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
I really can’t understand why law enforcement isn’t more involved. I am firmly a believer in 1st Amendment rights, but this is the same as shouting “fire” in a crowded theater.
Also, to bring up a sore spot for many, but something that might be applied here, threats are considered terrorist acts under the Patriot Act.
on March 25th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
well..it is sad to see national Leaders stoop so low as to try to create fear and hate in America again..we know there will always be that ‘element”of thinkers in America that will play off this kind of politics and do terrible harm..these Senators and Representives who will not help bring America back to being a respected Nation again and /or strive to help the working class people have a better life should be voted out of office…it is so sad that those that are joining in this hate and destruction usually don’t vote anyway and they are the ones that will benefit the most from tthe Health Care Reform..wake up my fellow Southerners..Joyce/Florida
on March 25th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Btw, I include myself in that Patriot Act remark!
on March 25th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
mw said,
“The truth is, many of these Tea Baggers are Klan and Neo-Nazis. There just not wearing hoods and swastika armbands.”
Many?
What would you call all the instigations for George Bush and Dick Cheney to die , be killed , “I’d kill them myself” , etc? -
If illegal actions occur , arrest whoever is guilty , but dont assume that a general condemnation is
is in order , unless you want to condemn yourself also for a few extremist idiots of your own ilk.
on March 25th, 2010 at 1:02 pm
There is nothing “conservative” about the reaction of the right-wing extremists to the health care bill.
John, what part of the bill are you so opposed to? Are you against not allowing insurance companies to refuse coverage for children with pre-existing conditions? Are you against subsidies for small businesses to provide health insurance for their employees? Is it the high risk pools to provide insurance for people denied insurance to people who cannot get commercial insurance that bothers you? Or is it the regulation which over time will prevent insurance companies removing people from their plan as soon as they get sick?
“Now that many people oppose health care, you claim they’re racists and haters,” you said. So is it health care you are against? Are people who cannot afford to pay 39% more for their insurance to just die if they become ill or have an accident? This has nothing to do with racism. It was the radical anti-health care activists who called black members of Congress the N-word. This SPLC article did not call people racists.
on March 25th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
Why isn’t the FBI investigating Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh etal who are using the airwaves and the internet to incite others to commit these hateful and violent acts?
on March 25th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
The chilling truth of hate movements is that they use an often cliche, universal, but racially ambivalent rallying cry (“end Government intrusion”) and combine it with opportunity (a deplorable economic situation) to gather a base of disaffected citizens. These citizens, frustrated at their own worsening conditions and generally apolitical to this point, are ripe, low-hanging fruit for those organizational structures which have very specific agendas…. agendas that may or may not be readily apparent to new recruits. Once in, recruits can be indoctrinated in almost a cult like way to a range of racist and other “ist” theories.
These movements rely heavily on their recruits as “soldiers” of the cause. Leaders bank on the ignorance of their soldiers – a questioning soldier is a hesitant soldier. A recruit who questions the mantra of socialized health care is communist/fascist/evil is not an effective recruit.
The prime recruit is the low-information citizen, willing to accept dogma w/out question, convinced that the Gov. is out to get him, and blind to ever realize that he’s being manipulated in a heinous political con-job. He is ready and willing to have his leaders direct his wrath for him, and point out to him WHICH other is the cause of his problems.
It is a sad reality that many accept their roles as soldiers with such alacrity that they they rarely evaluate the destructiveness of their behavior. In redefining themselves as a soldier, they dismiss the real destruction, the real injury and real death as “collateral damage”. In redefining themselves as soldiers, they have put themselves above and beyond the law in their own minds, and are outraged and surprised when laws hold them accountable for their behaviors.
As with most cults, most members will not engage in more than meetings, rallies, uninformed blog commenting and personally offensive behavior. A good number of recruits will find that activities a bit much for them and fade back into their real lives.
But unfortunately, the perpetual human mistrust of the other guy and the fear of change and the unknown is a condition on which those of malicious intent will ALWAYS capitalize.
on March 25th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
This country is moving backwards with tea party type repulsive behavior.
Rather than just talk, let us send links to join the Southern Poverty Law Center and encourge people to give to the people who have accomplished so much and can do more with our help.
on March 25th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Toby:
“…anything but a democracy.”
You need a refresher on your U.S. history. We are not and have never been a “democracy.”
A democracy is not something I want or need.
As far as these acts go, what else would a rational person expect to happen?
We have an out of control, illegitimate government.
They do not abide by the constitution or any limits and do not govern in the interests of their constituents.
Why should we expect the common man to obey limits when our elected officials do not?
They no longer have any moral, legal or legitimate authority. They do not police their own ranks. They have no honor, no morals and are for sale to the highest bidder. They have the power of the gun, just like Obama’s Maoist buddies preach.
That is ALL they have.
If there ever is an armed insurrection here our government will have no one to blame but themselves.
I have no tears for their problems.
on March 25th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
Why in the world would a fellow American not want to help their brother, sister, mother, etc obtain health insurance at a cost they can afford? I have 6 siblings and half of them have no coverage at all because they can’t afford it. Now with the passage of health care reform they will. The constant media brainwashing of ignorant people (who don’t realize they’re ignorant) and others who weren’t ready for a black man to be president need to accept the truth…..Barack Obama is “our President” and a brilliant man doing the best he can for our country, you should be thankful. There is no government takeover………..it’s a new administration governing….something that’s been missing for a long time.
on March 25th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
The last few posts are poliitical , not antihate based.
The FBI Investigate Rush Limbaugh?
For what?
How about they investigate you for comments you make and policies you believe in?
Got any dirty laundry they can dig up?
I dont think that’s how we work here. The tea people are mostly regular Americans disgusted with Socialist and fiscally irresponsible (from both sides) government.
Dont stamp millions by the actions of a few.
A healthcare supporting lib beat up an old man at a rally – bit his finger off!
I dont blame all of you for it.
How ridiculous – to say lets get the FBI to investigate your political rivals. Who are you anyway , Stalin?
on March 25th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
I think Palin is Alice In Blunderland and Tea Party is mad as a hatter. These people seem like Daffy Ducks as mob enforcers. Talk about hysterically abusive! They act like some sort of neo Pickett’s Charge trying to enforce bond slavery.
on March 25th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Mark,
You didn’t answer my question – the incident you described was in Afghanistan. BTW, I am sorry for your loss. Yet, since we’re getting into this- how about Mohammad Usman Chaudhry, 21, killed by LAPD – Pakistani American – coroner listed his ethnicity as black and no one notified the family until 3 weeks, even though his family reported him missing?
on March 25th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Jack,
Sadly, you make my point for me.
on March 25th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
John Harvey and Jody – If any entity has the authority to regulate health care, it is the states. They can regulate, create socialized medical organizations, whatever they want.
Read the Constitution of the United States, particularly the Tenth Amendment and then tell me where it says that the federal government is supposed to provide health care.
A couple of clues – it’s not in the preamble, because the preamble doesn’t delegate powers.
It’s not in Article I, Section 8 – That says “provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;” not “the People of the United States”.
The writers were pretty clear about who or what they were referring to.
They also didn’t find that the meaning of words like “is” are debatable.
I have no problem with helping my fellow man, but I will decide who I help and how.
KC Hanson – Your arrogance is both astounding and frightening.
It is people like you that encouraged the slaughter of millions of educated and cultured people in China in the name of “progress”.
I know that I’m not going to change your mind or even get you to have a logical discussion on the matter – you’re just better and smarter than me and everybody else here and even talking to me or anybody else would be beneath you and a waste of your time.
I know that I am just too stupid to see the truth that you teach comrade.
Should I perhaps be euthanized to protect humanity from from my ignorance and horrible speech?
on March 25th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
It’s good to see so many Good, Pro-Civil Rights Activists (been tickin’ off the {Austin, TX.} KKK, et al, since 1982, personally) making ‘this is bad; comments today; as there are often, believe it or not, many PRO Violence PRO Racists types who vent there spleens in these comments.
Remember to keep commenting, if you feel this way; make them creative, and if there’s any hope for the Troglydites of America, maybe we can open up their narrow little eyes to the fact that THEY are NOT a Majority; not in The South, The North, The East, or The West.
They grew rapidly between 2000 and 2008; WE need to take heed, and do whatever (Ahem!) is necessary to help them to ‘See The Multi-Colored Light’ – or, barring that, to keep them IN CHECK
on March 25th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
I forgot to add another issue to this debate Mark. The thing is, the Republicans are playing with fire with these type debates on ‘healthcare and tax-cuts for businesses.’ All you have to do is look up ‘the raw story,’ and look for the story called human trafficking of indian guest workers for 2007. What is happening here, you notice, the Republicans keep yelling tax cuts for businesses. However, nothing they do include any benefits for the working class. If you read the story I’ve mentioned above, you will see there is no incentive to hire any American workers. Another point, do you actually think those so-called fema camp buildings are really what the Republicans say they are? How do you know that these aren’t buildings for the h2b guest workers? I’m also willing to bet, you didn’t realize that when you saw lots of immigrants in one house in neighborhoods, you were unaware that some may have been just that, that is the reason no one (officials) would ‘do anything’ about it. It was a business, something the MSM will not inform you on.
I left the Republican party years ago. I will never return to this party again. I do not belong to the Liberterian party either, I consider them to be more radical.
on March 25th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
Oh, and KC, you mention soldiers – could that be like useful idiots?
on March 25th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
John’s comment: “KC Hanson – Your arrogance is both astounding and frightening.
It is people like you that encouraged the slaughter of millions of educated and cultured people in China in the name of “progress”.
I know that I’m not going to change your mind …..”
Hmmm… I seriously doubt that you wish to change my mind given that the first thing out of you cybermouth is and is an insult and the second thing is complete baldderdash… I am not even sure how you made this particular quantum leap other than your not-so-well-veiled assumption that everyone that expresses something you disagree with is some “gawd-damn commie” China? Really?
Your personnel opinions and insult-laden hyperbole aside, my observations are not simply my own, but based on long standing research into the structure and constructs of hate groups. The formations of some “tea party” groups bear striking similarity in structural nuance to to more vested hate groups.
I would hasten to add that some teaparty groups and members do and will distance themselves from racist associations, and the internet has provided a model for organic development of local groups as much as it has provided a vehicle for Dick Armey’s Freedom Works to push its agenda. But the mob mentality that inspires vandalism, intimidation and worse has been claimed by those that identify with the teaparty.
Sometimes the truth hurts, especially if it hits really close to home.
on March 25th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
Is the what the Republicans were referring to when predicting (promising?) Armageddon if Health Care Reform passed?
on March 25th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
So it seems, from this thread, that the SPLC accepts hatred and bigotry so long as you agree with the left. I guess it’s ok to use “Nazi”, “racist” and “Klan” so much that it loses any meaning. I guess it’s ok to try to degrade people by calling them a sexual act. Just so long as you agree with the left, your hatred and bigotry is acceptable and right. Guess we can call liberals “Fisters”? After all, they defended a man in the administration who had no problem with teaching children how to fist.
Another reason I’m not so concerned with the threats agains democrats: The Obama Administration is using it to make money.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/.....ml?showall
Which is worse? The threats or exploiting it for money?
“I wonder when they will bring out their white robes and hats!!” That would be democrats, Doris. They were the party of slavery and segregation.
“It was the radical anti-health care activists who called black members of Congress the N-word.”
[Citation Needed] It doesn’t seem anybody did. Given how the left has manufactured “racism” so many times in the past and there’s no evidence somebody called a member of Congress a “nigger” or a “faggot”, I’m not so impressed when a member of Congress claims that they were.
on March 25th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Yesteryear’s mental health reform has never worked for the people who need mental health care the most, and our collective endangerment by them is what we’re left to reap.
on March 25th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
Arrest them, and try them in a military court like any other terrorist.
on March 25th, 2010 at 8:22 pm
John,
I’m really sick of people who claim to be libertarian that do not know how to read and think at the same time. If the government is of the people for the people and by the people then the General Welfare of the United States would by definition be the American People. Yes I hate that personal mandate, but the rest of the bill is pretty decent. There should NEVER be a business allowed in this country that profits by allowing people to die. Health care affects the economy. When people are healthy they are more productive, that means that they make more, their employer makes more, making more room for even more hiring. That in turn broadens the tax base so that no one group has to feel all of the pain and with more revenue coming in the government has the ability to reduce the deficit or actually do something about our crappy infrastructure which would make it easier for all of us to go about our daily business.
The people in the Tea Party haven’t yet figured out that they are being used. It was Corporations that actually started it, although if you look at the blogs, the birthers, militias, white nationalists and christian identity folk all think that they did. (christian is not capitalized intentionally-this is a hate group). John if you are truly a libertarian you need to turn off Glenn Beck and step away from the Tea Party and actually think. Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson would be appalled with this kind of behavior and unwillingness to use logic and reason. I myself am a 21st century libertarian-I don’t fall for the old tricks, I’m not against paying taxes as long as I can see where the money is going, and I realize that the government is absolutely legitimate because I vote. vote therefore I participate. The Constitution is made up of more than just the Bill of Rights and it is the highest law of the land-not the long dead and defunct articles of the confederation.
Hide and watch John the Supreme Court will have reasoning similar to what I’ve said about the General Welfare meaning the American people.
These lawsuits will fail and we’ll have to write gobs of letters urging the repeal of the one part that most of us would argue needs work-the individual mandate. I don’t like the idea of being forced to contribute to a private corporation’s profit any more than you do, but that doesn’t mean that the government is illegitimate or that we should be harming people. The rest of it was good-equality is a good thing and it actually means that everyone should have the same degree and quality of access, opportunity, moral consideration and dignity. For too long we have condemned people to die because they didn’t make enough to pay the premiums-this even effected kids. Lifetime limits don’t go very far when a child has cancer or needs an organ transplant. No doctor or nurse should be put in a position to tell parents that they can’t do anything because the parents don’t have insurance or they have hit their limit. If it was your child you’d be pissed, could you really expect someone else to just deal with it because they aren’t just like you? If this bill will fix that horrible flaw in the system how can we throw a fit about it? It certainly is not something we should be harming people or even threatening people over.
on March 25th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
Since their inception the Teaparty crowd (not a movement since they do have the numbers or clout) have been “haters not debaters”. In my opinion this is what the small portions of the republican party of “birthers, baggers and blowhards” have brought you. They are good at “Follow the Leader” of their dullard leaders, they listen to Beck, Hedgecock, Hannity, O’Reilly, Rush and Savage and the rest of the Blowhards. Are you surprise at what they do when you know what they think? The world is complicated and most republicans (Hamiliton, Lincoln, Roosevelt) believe that we should use government a little to increase social mobility, now its about dancing around the claim of government is the problem. The sainted Reagan passed the biggest tax increase in American history and as a result federal employment increased, but facts are lost when mired in mysticism and superstition. Although some republicans are trying to distant themselves from this fringe most of them are just going along and fanning the flames.
on March 25th, 2010 at 9:52 pm
Since their inception the Teaparty crowd (not a movement since they do have the numbers or clout) have been “haters not debaters”. In my opinion this is what the small portions of the republican party of “birthers, baggers and blowhards” have brought you. They are good at “Follow the Leader” of their dullard leaders, they listen to Beck, Hedgecock, Hannity, O’Reilly, Rush and Savage and the rest of the Blowhards. Are you surprise at what they do when you know what they think? The world is complicated and most republicans (Hamiliton, Lincoln, Roosevelt) believe that we should use government a little to increase social mobility, now its about dancing around the claim of government is the problem. The sainted Reagan passed the biggest tax increase in American history and as a result federal employment increased, but facts are lost when mired in mysticism and superstition. Although some republicans are trying to distant themselves from this fringe most of them are just going along and fanning the flames.
As for the window. This was staged by one of Cantor’s gun buddy, good try at being a victim but I don’t buy it, next.
on March 25th, 2010 at 10:59 pm
Thank you John, for giving us an example of how insane Tea Partiers are…
John said,
“on March 25th, 2010 at 10:27 am
I would remind all of you that the Nazis claimed that the sterlization of “undesirables” and the extermination of the Jews would make a better society.”
Yup, the Health Care bill is just one step away from forced sterilization and extermination. France, Britain, Canada, and a whole host of other countries already have universal healthcare far stronger than anything in the United States including after this bill- so we can conclude that all these countries must have already introduced forced sterilization and exterminated large parts of their populations.
“There was no popular vote – I’m sure most people would have opposed it if they had been given the chance to vote on it.”
How many laws are enacted in the US via referendum? If the emancipation of slaves were put to a vote back in the 1860s, most people might have opposed it.
“Now, we have a president and members of Congress that are mandating health care for everyone for the ends of making a better society. They did it in the face of open opposition from a majority of Americans.”
Hmm…do you have proof that most Americans are opposed to it? And were you aware that many Americans who oppose it do so on the grounds that it is too weak, and favors the insurance providers’ profit motive?
“So, what will you say if they decide that the poor need to be sterilized to make a better society? That’s what Margaret Sanger advocated.”
So, once they decide that it’s okay to sterilize the poor, then if they decide that some other group needs to be sterlized or even euthanized, are you going to oppose them?”
This is called a “slipper slope” logical fallacy. I suggest you look it up. The ability to reason will help you critically evaluate the nonsense of folks like Glenn Beck, and then you will not get upset so easily.
“Even if you oppose them, will they listen to you?
They didn’t listen this time – what makes you think they will listen later?”
Can you tell me why this nightmare scenario hasn’t occurred yet in Canada, France, pretty much all of Europe, etc.? These countries all have more government involvement in healthcare than the US, even post-bill.
“And don’t answer that you’re on their side – Remember old Uncle Joe Stalin?
He killed off all of his former friends and comrades when he thought they might be a problem.”
What the hell does Josef Stalin have to do with the healthcare bill? In case you didn’t know, Stalin was elected leader of his country in a time shortly after it had been invaded by 14 imperial powers, assisting a number of insurgent movements, shortly after which it was blockaded by the British. Until the late 30s the USSR was in a state of near civil war. How the hell does any of that have anything to do with this healthcare bill?
“So, what’s to stop you from becoming the next problem for society?”
You’re not making any case to link this bill with “ridding society of its problems”. The bill has nothing to do with forced sterilization or euthanasia.
“And I find it quite ironic that I see wailing about “racism” and “hate” and other prejudices, then multiple claims that every member of the Tea Party is a white christian from the south, a racist, a haters, etc.”
A great deal of the Tea Partiers are white middle class, a demographic curiously susceptible to right-wing populism. At nearly every Tea Party racist signs can be found.
“Oh yeah, and when Dick Cheney (who I am no fan of) claimed that people who opposed the Patriot Act are unpatriotic, your side of the world was up in arms.
Now that many people oppose health care, you claim they’re racists and haters.
Is the pot calling the kettle black?”
Since you are unable to understand the inaccuracy of that comparison, I will point it out for you. The Patriot Act increases the surveillance powers of law enforcement and deprives people of certain key constitutional rights. By contrast, the health care bill, while being a massive boon to insurance companies, does not actually deprive one of said rights. After all, many states require you to have proof of insurance to drive a car.
on March 26th, 2010 at 3:10 am
Interesting Ron Paul have not made an apology. The Republicans are trying to blame Democrats. Wow! I now believe the Republicans have lost a perfect opportunity to throw a curve ball and blame Paul for some of these problems. After all, Paul was leading candidate at CPAC, his longstanding association with ‘thugs’ is no secret, actually. As far as the calls made to some Republicans, these guys could have been a call from a Liberterian follower to make Paul come out smelling like a rose!
on March 26th, 2010 at 6:51 am
I believe, as most of the comments have stated, that it is only a matter of time before there is great violence against this democratic movement by right wing thugs, but what is so frightening is that there is a very good possibility that it will be the radical Muslims who will manipulate a small group of tea party morons to do great harm to this nation, and the morons won’t know they are being manipulated because they will be blinded by their racist hate of an incredible American president. It’s going to happen, and sooner than later, and it is a very bad situation for our freedom!!
I pray that it won’t happen, but from the looks of what has taken place so far, it is, as has been stated here, only a matter of time!
on March 26th, 2010 at 8:45 am
“After all, many states require you to have proof of insurance to drive a car.”
Driver’s Ed 101: Driving a car is not a right, it’s a privilege.
What’s the fourth and fifth words in that sentence again? And vehicle insurance is for damages that you might do to somebody else, not for hangnails, abortions of physical therapy. Surely you know the difference? Surley you must be aware that you can’t buy auto insurance after an accident. Further, I’m sure you’re aware why your premiums go up after you’ve been in an accident.
Long story short of this thread: Hatred, bigotry, violence and vandalism are perfectly acceptable as long as it’s the left carrying it out. What’s more, all manner of absurdity is used to justify it and/or blame Republicans for it. Liberals wrote the book on hatred and bigotry and are now projecting to distract attention from ObamaCareless and to portray the libs in Congress as poor victims.
Want a fun project? Try reading the complaints they’ve filed.
on March 26th, 2010 at 9:04 am
Even more fun:
“Protesters have been demonstrating at Driehaus’ Ohio home, said Tim Mulvey, a spokesman for the anti-abortion Democrat who joined Stupak in voting for the health bill. A rock was thrown through the window of Driehaus’ Cincinnati office Sunday, and a death threat was phoned in to his Washington office a day later, Mulvey said.”
Seattle Times http://tinyurl.com/yc6w3s9
Driehaus’ Cincinnati office is on the 30th floor.
Newsbusters http://tinyurl.com/ygzoad9
on March 26th, 2010 at 9:46 am
Tea Partiers are a creation of Fox News. Similar in the way that gangs were blamed on the arts and expressions of urban life, so Fox News is to blame for cutting off the gas line of non-nativists.
Seriously though, there ought to be anti-militia and anti-extremist group laws to crack down on these reactionary menaces before they proliferate. They are gangsters filled with hate.
on March 26th, 2010 at 9:55 am
skinnyminny said,
“After all, Paul was leading candidate at CPAC, his longstanding association with ‘thugs’ is no secret, actually.”
Ron Paul associates with thugs? I dont support him per foreign policy , but I love the guy and think the world of his domestic policies.
Was Obama associated with “thugs” for his ties to ACORN who’d strongarmed at election centers?
Dont speak with one eye closed , it exposes a political bent , rather than altruism.
Cheryl said :
“If the government is of the people for the people and by the people then the General Welfare of the United States would by definition be the American People. There should NEVER be a business allowed in this country that profits by allowing people to die.”
No , there shouldn’t. But go check insurance co. margins – they’re only a few percent in the black.
Take that away , and what’s left? Government health care.
And that “for the people” speech says nothing.
Is it “to each according to his need and to each according to his ability”?
We are not talking about being for or against “the people” , we are talking about where you draw the line. We are diluting any need to strive by promising that you dont need to , the guv is always there.
Ruslan Amirkhanov said,
“Hmm…do you have proof that most Americans are opposed to it?”
Every freakin poll says so , can you find even one that doesn’t? Even the Dem polls cant make it .
Referendum? This is one of the largest financial and social issues ever , and is being sneaked through by smoke and mirrors tactics that Obama and its other proponents are on record prior as FIRMLY AGAINST , and have at length decried as inappropriate – until it served their last resort purpose.
“A great deal of the Tea Partiers are white middle class, a demographic curiously susceptible to right-wing populism. At nearly every Tea Party racist signs can be found.”
So those are the ones we “gotta watch out for” – the “white middle class” ?
Take a look at the faces at those meetings – how many smack of nazi’s and racists? They freakin work , and dont have time to be activists.Many are taking off work to attend , they’re so freakin mad.
I’m not keeping score here , but most radical actions and threats are not from Conservatives ,
and you cant blame an entire movement for a few-arrest those few.
There is no way in the world every issue concerning healthcare cannot be addressed by the free market , with insurance co. regulation overhaul , rather than this insane multi $trillion government folly.
The gov pays for healthcare for half the country now anyway , so raising medicaid income limits , lowering Medicare age (with an income test) , allowing interstate competition and tort reform , along with revamped insurance co. responsibility and regulation is very little involvement without creating yet another additional expensive , bungling , intrusive GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY that will cost a fortune just to administer. This is going to be paid for by “eliminating waste and inefficiencies , and new taxes on the rich”.
WHY ARENT THE INEFFICIENCIES OF THE ALREADY EXISTING GOV INVOLVEMENT AUTOMATICALLY ELIMINATED IF WE CAN?
WE NEED A 3000 PAGE BILL TO DO WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING AS A MATTER OF COURSE? AND THE INGENIUS MEANS OF PAYING FOR THIS IS “TAX THE RICH?
Gimmee a break. We can cover everyone without this crap , and it’s a freakin power grab by a proven inefficient administrative entity.
on March 26th, 2010 at 10:27 am
beholder said,
“Tea Partiers are a creation of Fox News. , so Fox News is to blame for cutting off the gas line of non-nativists.”
Can you be any more ridiculous than that line of reasoning?
“Seriously though, there ought to be anti-militia and anti-extremist group laws to crack down on these reactionary menaces before they proliferate.”
Yep , I guess you cvan be more ridiculous.
Any suggestion as to what color shirts the anti-militia should wear when “cracking down”?
And while they’re at it , maybe they can figure out how they broke that window in Cincinatti ON THE 30TH FLOOR.
on March 26th, 2010 at 10:46 am
Rob said,
on March 26th, 2010 at 8:45 am
….Long story short of this thread: Hatred, bigotry, violence and vandalism are perfectly acceptable as long as it’s the left carrying it out. What’s more, all manner of absurdity is used to justify it and/or blame Republicans for it. Liberals wrote the book on hatred and bigotry and are now projecting to distract attention from ObamaCareless and to portray the libs in Congress as poor victims….”
——-
Um, Rob, talk about distractions… I’m not sure what “book” you are talking about, but recent events – the spitting, the vandalism, the hurling of racial slurs – not only have been done by outta control folks on the fringe right, but have been CLAIMED by them.
But for the record, ANY violence, by ANY group, at ANY level, is at the least abhorrent behavior and should be summarily rejected on all sides. At worse it is domestic terrorism, not only designed to kill, but violently suppress the activity and dialogue in the larger community.
What is most unsettling about these recent acts is that they represent an escalation of abusive behavior. Since August, individuals who readily identified themselves as “Tea Partiers” have been screeching at town halls, purposefully intimidating folks who expressed different opinions, and have made every effort to shut down discourse and conversation.
This is not my opinion; this paraphrases their townhall manifesto.
Now folks, again identifying w/ the T-P, have not only hurled bricks and rocks and insults, but have encouraged others to do so – most notably Alabama blogger Mike Vanderboegh. Vanderboegh, apparently inspired by his own sense of power, hopes to foster more disruption and escalate the violence.
“In an interview with Alan Colmes yesterday, Vanderboegh justified his call for vandalism and said the attacks are warning shots because people like him will next threaten the life of Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and fight health reform with “a thousand little Waco’s”
(http://thinkprogress.org/2010/.....tea-party/)
In due fairness, and as I noted in a post above, some tea party officials have rejected the violence, and I would hope more folks disassociate from the violence – as groups or as individuals – as this gets worse.
But Rob, the long story of this thread is neither the attribution of the violence, nor the weak justification of “ha, you did it too!” but the fact that violence has displaced discourse on almost every level. Whether it’s a brick hurled in the hours of darkness or an invective and wad of mucus spat on a Congressional member, the media spends its minutes on the violence; political leaders and activists focus their attention on the violence, and we spend a significant amount of our scribe time addressing the violence.
It’s really no surprise that it has gotten to this point… when elected “leaders” blithely throw out terminology like Nazi’s, fascism, communism etc (often, ironically in the same breathe), they are well aware that they are stoking the flames.
on March 26th, 2010 at 11:18 am
Why is this any more of a power grab than giving student loans or for that matter, having public schools. It’s an obvious need and how long can grabby individualism be counted on to provide access to health care for one third of our nation for crying out loud? I keep hearing all this bombastic bulsshit about socialism and power grab, and it’s a freaking private sector system with the same greedy ass insurance companies in the middle. At least some people, ordinary AMERICAN people come out winning from this one. I personally don’t taxes, but hey, I also don’t like living in a barbarous country.
on March 26th, 2010 at 11:51 am
Ruslan:
“After all, many states require you to have proof of insurance to drive a car.”
What a senseless argument. They can require you to buy insurance if you are going to operate a vehicle on THEIR property, however they can not force you to buy a car.
I can buy a car or not and if I wish could operate it on my property without buying insurance. The mandate is no different than when I require a contractor to have insurance before letting him work on my property. He doesn’t have to if he wishes, I can not force him to buy it, but I can refuse to let him on my property without it.
Forcing someone to buy a product from a private corporation is not the same thing.
on March 26th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Dave Varez, are you Cuban? If so, this would explain to me why you appear to be anti-government!
First of all Mr. Varez, I’m not sure if you are ‘comprehending’ that this is a blog for the ‘left,’ as you call it. When in reality, this blog is mainly to bring public awareness about various extremists groups/views…..
I must ask! Are you suffering from a low-self-esteem, and worry what people say about you? Or, do you really think you have the ‘good power of persuasion?’ I’m only asking because, for me, I don’t like people yelling at me while trying to bully me to get me to go along. I am an adult, and like to be treated as such. Are you trying to recruit here from this blog? Good luck with that! Most people here are self-confident, smarter, can in fact be leaders. Now go young man, look for your recruits at the usual places, prisons, homeless, and drug addicts…..
on March 26th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
what’s with the gnashing of teeth? who is surprised by this? racism and violence are practically imprinted on the collective DNA of waaaaay to many semiliterate, frustrated, undereducated, unemployed whites; yet despite violence directed against us, we blacks haven’t developed the knack for the unfettered viciousness directed towards us in recent days (’cause when people spit on one of us they spit on us all). with any luck we never will lower ourselves to that level. and don’t even try to persuade me that having a black president hasn’t made right-wing crazies even crazier. the historically establshed proclivity for racial violence has only been dormant. with the likes of beck, limbaugh et al, it’s awakening, which is pretty scary. especially if you live in texas…
on March 26th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Just another REPUBLIC MORON in closet call themself as TEA PARTY.
on March 26th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
skinneyminney , I have no interest in any of your
personal comments.
I simply refer you back to mine , to consider on the basis of their validity. You refer to Cuba , where Fidel , by the way , applauds Obama’s legislation , so we must be on the right track.
I assume you feel the U.S. gov is better suited to run healthcare than the private sector? They cant even efficiently regulate the private sector , much less run the system.
So stick to dissecting the validity , or lack thereof , of my comments and dont assume a bunch of fantasy – I dont play your political games , and dont suffer fools , foolish comments (yeah , like that idiot Beck OR that idiot Olbermann) , or foolish policy on either side of the fence.
Those tea people ARE NOT an extremist group ,
and it annoys me that LEFT AGENDA BASED Dems are trying to foolishly concur among each other that thay are.
THEY FREAKIN WORK , so I guess that’s a clue that they’re extremists.
99% of em would never condone violence – they are just mad, as am I too , and you are zeroing in on the 1% to label the whole.
Did you agree with the calls to kill Bush? Should I include you and your entire entourage if a few said “Bush should die” .
I never did , and never would as a strategy , because it’s dirty pool – which doesn’t seem to matter in the reverse.
beholder said :
“Why is this any more of a power grab than giving student loans or for that matter, having public schools.”
beholder , the kids cant read , the teachers unions are out of control , and Obama sends his kids to private school (but wont allow that for other D.C. kids.) Student loans are not repaid and keep getting “revamped”.
The “greedy” healthcare companies earn only a few percent profit , working on a small margin.
I am absofreakinlutely NOT saying dont insure the public – I am saying do it by intelligent reform ,
not government mandate , which will be as inefficient as your examples and any other government administered entity. That’s just the nature of the beast , and we should recognize that by now.
on March 27th, 2010 at 12:11 am
The present situation abounds with irony; one of the greatest is the fact that Skinheads and neo-Nazis are part of the group which loves to label our president as a “Hitler.” In psychology class we learned to identify this as projection: projecting your own faults onto the opposition.
on March 27th, 2010 at 3:34 am
I dont know why the republicans refused to help creat the healthcare bill , I seen a poll that said 70 % of the people were in favor of the public option . and would be happy to pay increased taxes to cover the cost . but the increased taxes was only 500 dollars . The republicans could have added their tort reform , I dont believe we have gotten the truth from the republicans that 85 % of all americans are happy with their insurance . I don’t even believe 15 % pay for their own insurance . And of those people that pay themselves , most think they are spending to much on healthcare . Most of us think our medicial bills are bogus ,crazy , something has to be changed . So according to my thoughts the republicans have opposed 70 % of the american people , and forced the democrats to inact a bill that actually looks worse than what we have right now . I’am a consevative liberal . I think social security pays plenty and I think medicare and medicaid are ok too . But if our liberal liberals keep promising the government will guarantee all bankrupt union pennsions that promised tribble pennsions , they soon will make even the little social security checks dissapear .
on March 27th, 2010 at 3:48 am
Do those who favor Neo Nazi- ism and hate Socialism know that the name NAZI is a contraction of National Socialism ?
We are a sick society which after more than two generations of the advertising industry’s brainwash technique, most effectively being TV, have no logic with which to face the current situations.
To accept as normal, the ” Comercialis Interuptis”, that being
the gimmie gimmees and buy-me buy-mes, during a pro- gram, breaking the mood and flow. When questioned, the president of a PBS channel answered: “Well everyone
does it”
NUFF SAID We are in deep feces ! !
on March 27th, 2010 at 11:20 am
Dave Varez, I’m glad you pointed out that you were MAD! Nice to know buddy! I usually get angry or concerned, hmmm, I don’t think I’ve ever gotten mad!
Okay! Yes, I believe the government should get involved in order to get the corporations to cooperate, and to regulate them. This is hard to do when the Republicans, Fox News and others call out the dogs – these dangerous killers – to stop any regulation. Now, I’d ask you, who let the dogs out?
Tea Party members are not extremists groups? Okay, then what are they?
You don’t like government at all. Well, I don’t like how people have been manipulated into thinking that only the private sector can do things better! They have been manipulated into being cheerleaders for the private sector and getting nothing back! It’s a fact, if you’re not the owner/president/ceo of these tax-evading businesses, you will never stand to profit. These businesses, if they had their way, will make everyone work under slave-labor type conditions – the food and drug industry had a chance to prove they didn’t need regulations – how many food recalls did we have? And those were the ones that wanted to do a recall!
You say the government has no business in education, since the kids are not learning! LOL! Dude, where have you been? I guess you think there’s no discriminatory practices that have affected any part of the American landscape since the Title 7, or 14th Amendment…….please don’t tell me you’re part of the stormfront group that claims recessive genes – genes that have laid dormant since the 19th century! Instead, I’d like to say this is a disease that has been in remission and its cancer is spreading rapidly and viciously.
But anyway, make your point why government is bad! Businesses over the past 8 years proved me wrong – jobs, loans……sound familiar! Oh, I get it, you must be one that likes to oppress!
on March 27th, 2010 at 11:31 am
BTW Dave Varez,
After making this point, I’ll have no choice but to rest my case. You blame government for all the past problems! Well, how many Democrats have been elected government in the U.S. of A?
on March 27th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
skinnyminny said,
“I usually get angry or concerned, hmmm, I don’t think I’ve ever gotten mad!”
Oh , you get angry , but not mad . Glad you pointed that out??? I get mad , like most humans at one time or another.
“This is hard to do when the Republicans, Fox News and others call out the dogs – these dangerous killers – to stop any regulation. Now, I’d ask you, who let the dogs out?”
Once again , this is political hate games you are playing , and the worst kind.
99% of all Conservatives would not condone violent acts , but you think that zeroing in on the remaining 1% nuts is the strategy du joir.
“Dangerous killers” ? What are you even talking about? Do I have to remind you of all the hate and threats directed at Bush and Cheney , even a movie about Bush’s death – and how many death threats do you think Limbaugh and other Conservative commentators and politicians get every day?
They just dont scream at the top of their lungs accusing every liberal group and party of being culpable , like babies – like you are. They dont even mention them , and certainly dont blame the majority for the kooks.
This is America. You regulate to the minimum and only when necessary , to protect the public , such as utilities and to prevent fraud.
The gov has failed miserably to prevent fraud , not because of too little regulation , but because it is inefficient and fraud occurs right under their nose. A guy screamed over and over to the SEC about Madoff , and they investigated and found nothing wrong. Dont blame the Republicans.
Healthcare profits are around 3% . What are you suggesting they be per regulation?
“Tea Party members are not extremists groups? Okay, then what are they?”
There’s millions of them and they mostly work for a living . How dare you label millions of people , mad at how their taxes are being allocated and knowing the healthcare leg cost estimates are way too low and getting together to stand up for their hard earned income , extremists.
This is a ridiculous discussion , there are only a few who have done anything violent , only a few who support that , and incidents are being manufactured.
Did you read the post right here where an office in Cincinatti supposedly had a rock thrown through the window -
And it’s on the 30th floor of the building?
Would that fall under the category of angry , mad – or bs?
“You say the government has no business in education, since the kids are not learning! LOL! Dude, where have you been?”
Dude , where have you been?
I’ve been watching education in America drop to astoundingly low levels. You are not aware of that?
“It’s a fact, if you’re not the owner/president/ceo of these tax-evading businesses, you will never stand to profit.”
That’s a fact? Private ingenuity made this country great , and those drug companies produced lifesaving innovations gov never could have come close to.
There’s a reason every Socialist experiment has failed , and China and Russia allowed free enterprise despite it being contrary to their original
policies.
But we’re gonna go the other way – depend on gov.
Gov is necessary for the minimum oversight and regulation required – and then get out of the way.
Unfortunately , they cant even do that right , whether Dem or Rep.
on March 27th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
And now Mike Malloy has publicly called for the deaths of Limbaugh, Hannity, O’Reilly etc. Name ONE host on the right who’s done the same.
on March 27th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
Look anywhere and you will find a couple of kooks in the crowd, on both sides. Violence has no place in the political system. That said, it is to be expected that some people are going to lash out, unreasonably, when faced with unfair and overwhelming opposition to all that has made this country great.
In Mark’s article, he well said, ‘It’s a sad commentary on America that this is what our political process has become’. Our Government majority leaders have bribed and paid off state lawmakers in order to pass a bill that the large majority of the American people don’t want. But that’s not the greatest atrocity. While the left wing is calling the right wing terrorists, your president said with his own mouth during his campaign, that he won’t wear the American flag pin because he doesn’t want to take sides. He said his wife disrespects the American flag and they both endorse flag burning. He said we should trash our National Anthem because of its violent message. He also said it is his intention to disarm America until we are accepted by our “middle eastern brethren” and the USA as a waring people should conduct itself like the peaceful nation of Islam upon whom we have placed an unfair injustice. These are fighting words for any true American. But on the bright side, he did say that since he is going to become the President of the USA he will put away his hatred. I hope we can survive until he is voted out of office. But until then we still have access to a peaceful political process. For now!
on March 28th, 2010 at 7:22 am
Y’all keep squealing, like Ned Beatty, about McVeigh. Problem is that he’s dead while Ayers and Dorn are very much alive and BFF with Obama.
Besides, if TEA Partiers were really terrorists, I would think Fister lawyers would be fighting each other to leak the identifications of undercover CIA agents to them. Ain’t happening.
on March 28th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Any of the blow hards with their own shows have an agenda to agitate anyone who’ll waste their time listening. People with full functioning executive skills know that they’re something to take with a grain of salt.
So, I ask, would the audience that Mike Mallory appeals to be likely to take something that he says to heart and act on it? Chew on that for a bit, please.
on March 29th, 2010 at 1:58 am
Hey Rob, how about Anne Coulter, who wished Tim McVeigh blew up the New York Times building. Naw, forget that, how about Michael Savage who said kill 100 million Muslims on the air.
Damn, that was easy.
on March 29th, 2010 at 9:23 am
http://www.washingtontimes.com.....-and-orei/
“Lib talk radio host calls for deaths of Limbaugh, Beck, and O’Reilly”
Now , how ridiculous would it be for me to include the majority of liberals in this idiot’s diatribe?
Yet , that’s what some are shamefully doing in the reverse.
How come nobody here has posted Sarah Palin’s comments at the McCain rally in Arizona yesterday? Missed that , while screaming about a rock that supposedly went through a 30th floor window?
She made it indisputably clear that the political tactics of implying guilt of violence on millions of middle class people annoyed with government policy , and peacefully rallying to say so , was despicable , and clearly stated that when “fight” or words of that ilk were used ,
“It meant fight at the ballot box , with your vote being the weapon”.
And when hecklers became abusive , she pointed out that the “lamestream” press would undoubtedly not present the incidents to the public.
Just look what you are shamefully fabricating an issue out of -
Unfortunate comments and actions by an insignificant number of kooks , not supported by the majority , and the case on either side (per human nature).
on March 29th, 2010 at 9:53 am
According to Jim…
“… your president said with his own mouth during his campaign, that he won’t wear the American flag pin because he doesn’t want to take sides. He said his wife disrespects the American flag and they both endorse flag burning. He said we should trash our National Anthem because of its violent message. He also said it is his intention to disarm America until we are accepted by our “middle eastern brethren” and the USA as a waring people should conduct itself like the peaceful nation of Islam upon whom we have placed an unfair injustice.”
———————
Jim, you’re going to have to source this, but then, this crap just oozes Rush, Beck, Savage, Bortz, Coulter and the whole host of extremist right mouthpieces that just want to fire you up.
Don’t believe their drivel… (and their finely edited video clips); check original sources and full quotes and THEN let’s talk.
on March 29th, 2010 at 12:39 pm
KC , I can’t speak for Jim’s whole post , but Obama definitely wouldn’t wear the flag pin , and only did so when it became an issue that would have hurt his election chances.
And he said “if they fight with knives , we’ll fight with guns” -
Now , I KNOW he meant that only figuratively , but when Palin says “fight” figuratively , it’s a big deal. I lose respect for those who play by double standard rules like some here are .
No Mary , it’s not likely that liberals are going to act on Mallory’s comments – OR Coulters or Savage’s .
But look at the point – Some talk over the top ON BOTH SIDES , but only one side is hilited as “dangerous” , and some are taken out of context ON BOTH SIDES , but only on one side is it continuously misconstrued per agenda as violent -
I dont like the healthcare bill and think much better fixes can be done without government involvement.
But I’m going to address my concerns on the (lack of) merits of the legislation -
And not by trying to create a false negative violent image of the bill’s supporters to enhance my point of view.
on March 29th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
shallow emotional arguments hold up poorly when they have to be fleshed out to detailed thoughtful debates. This is why the right resorts to the inflammatory “nazi” “socialist” label instead of actually explaining why policies would be bad for the country.
In poll after poll we see that a large majority of Americans want what is in this most recent health care bill. But the arguments against it were all emotionally based, not logic based. These arguments are powerful but rarely have much staying power among the majority of people. The same – EXACT same – arguments were made to counter Medicare. Reagan called in socialism and opposed it but fifteen years later denied denied denied that he had ever opposed Medicare. Of course that was because Medicare,the big scary program that Republicans tried to scare us with turned out to be one of the most successful government programs in history.
I do think that most of the people (more than half anyway) who are objecting to current changes do so out of ignorance and fear, not with any real though behind it. These people aren’t throwing bricks or cutting gas lines but they are giving the delusional right the perception that they are in the majority in thinking that the current administration is somehow illegitimate or otherwise a threat to them and the country.
Does race play a large part? You betcha. But I think that’s a completely subconscious thing for most people. These are people who still say that unless someone comes out and uses a racial epithet, there is no evidence of racism.
on March 29th, 2010 at 8:20 pm
And I suppose DNC & Obama donor Norman Leboon’s threats will be defended as “patriotic” or maybe even “art”, like making a movie about killing Bush.
Keep distracting from the “health care reform” crap sandwich.
on March 30th, 2010 at 7:39 am
Mandrake
Comment:
“shallow emotional arguments hold up poorly when they have to be fleshed out to detailed thoughtful debates. This is why the right resorts to the inflammatory “nazi” “socialist” label instead of actually explaining why policies would be bad for the country.”
Just listen to this – Nothing but detailed rebukes of the cost and inappropriateness of government massive involvement have been offered. And yet
that is reduced to the status of “shallow emotional arguments” here.
And talk about reducing to labels? Look what is occurring on this very thread , and among all liberals , inaccurately labeling working middle class Americans as part of a violent movement for joining together and expressing their dissatisfaction with government policies , by attempting to identify them with a few maniacs which all condemn . (Mandrake himself , to be fair , did not do so) .
“In poll after poll we see that a large majority of Americans want what is in this most recent health care bill. But the arguments against it were all emotionally based, not logic based.”
This is the second time this inaccurate information has been posted here.
There has not been one poll , liberal based ones included , in which a majority has favored this legislation.
In Massachusetts , a major Democrat stronghold and where Kennedy has been Senator forever and the most ardent supporter of this bill , the Dem’s lost the Senate race and a Republican was voted into office – an incredible occurence , and a clear indicatiion that even in the most liberal of States ,
the majority is not happy with this legislation -
Not no legislation , not no reform , but not this onerous insanity.
“Does race play a large part? You betcha.”
Yeah , just like the tea party people are all violent nazi’s (and please all – NEVER capitalize the word nazi).
It is extremely insulting to stoop to the President’s race as a tactic.
I and most , am not , and have never been ,
predjudiced against the Irish , or any other relatives of Dick Cheney ,
and am insulted that any would claim that to be the case.
And as to his Black half , I listened to the epithets being hurled at Clarence Thomas , Condoleeza Rice , and Colin Powell by Democrats and liberals while I steadfastly supported them all , and never once believed or claimed that the Dems were racially biased , but rather politically opposed to them.
But now – I’M A RACIST! , because I disagree with an extreme liberal President , who happens to be half Black.
What was I when I opposed Carter? A peanut hater?
on March 30th, 2010 at 8:38 am
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/201....._tea_party
WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama says he believes the Tea Party is built around a “core group” of people who question whether he is a U.S. citizen and believe he is a socialist.
(Note: an accurate comment on his part – but “question” doesn’t mean “for sure” – it means , as they say in Missouri , “show me”).
But beyond that, Obama tells NBC he recognizes the movement involves “folks who have legitimate concerns” about the national debt and whether the government is taking on too many difficult issues simultaneously.
In an interview broadcast Tuesday on NBC’s “Today” show, Obama said he feels “there’s still going to be a group at their core that question my legitimacy.” But he said he didn’t want to paint Tea Party activists “in broad brushes” and he hopes to win over members who have “mainstream, legitimate concerns.”
on March 30th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
dave varez is scared of the reds. he’s afraid they’ll march down the street advocating public schools, public fire and police departments, food stamps, maternity leave, unions and the weekend.
boo! its socialism!!
on March 30th, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Should not use the example of public schools.
They have been nothing but an abject expensive failure.
on March 30th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
beholder said :
“dave varez is scared of the reds. he’s afraid they’ll march down the street advocating public schools, public fire and police departments, food stamps, maternity leave, unions and the weekend.
boo! its socialism!!”
That comment does not address the problems and disatisfactions at hand. Anfd obviously , it ain’t just me.
A Rep Senator in Mass. , every poll everywhere showing a majority against this legislation , large groups forming to stop these policies -
Not really a joke , and to the point but friendly discussion my personal choice
on March 30th, 2010 at 10:02 pm
“This is why the right resorts to the inflammatory “nazi” “socialist” label instead of actually explaining why policies would be bad for the country.”
Actually, the right HAS explained over and over why it would be bad for the country. Then liberals without an ounce of evidence scream “RAAAAAACIST!!!” to shut down opposition. And just to make sure, they trot out the narrative that TEA partiers are terrorists just to make sure. Problem is that we find that the liberals are the ones who are engaging in hate, threats of and actual violence etc.
What we HAVEN’T seen is Chairman Obama or anybody else stand up and say “Here’s what’s so great about ObamaCare”. Instead, they told us we’re too stupid to understand or that we’d understand AFTER it was signed into law. What’s more, they’re still not explaining what’s so great about it. Still no explanations why Chairman Obama’s broken his campaign promises either.
Now the AP reports that young adults will get screwed with higher premiums. No doubt Nosferatu Waxman will want to interrogate the AP for running the story.
on March 30th, 2010 at 10:35 pm
Dave,
Sarah Palin’s “targets,” standing alone, would seem as innocuous as any warlike language we’ve become used to in the political battles (war allusion intended). Thing is, the context right now is that her target map is released amidst festering rage that have produced a large number of violent acts. from the assaultive, but mostly disgusting, spit propelled in DC, to the dangerous slicing of gas lines, to the murder of Dr. Tiller, leadership on the right has been remarkably quiet or slow to respond.
A responsible leader, a true statesman or stateswoman, would have not only recognized the inappropriateness of such a map at this juncture, but would have instead used the bully pulpit as an opportunity to promote non-violence.
That she instead uses her access to podium and media to further whip up the followers speaks volumes about both her character and her qualifications as an elected leader.
on March 31st, 2010 at 9:39 am
Rob S,
Comment:
“This is why the right resorts to the inflammatory “nazi” “socialist” label instead of actually explaining why policies would be bad for the country.”
Calling Obama a Socialist is not only a reasonable statement , but one that I can’t imagine anyone denying – It is not demeaning , or a bad thing , but simply a political/economic philosophy to which there is great opposition.
Calling him a nazi , however , is completely inappropriate and , in fact , a terrible thing to say .
It is equally wrong to call any opposed to his policies a racist -
But two wrongs dont make a right.
KC Hanson said,
“Thing is, the context right now is that her target map is released amidst festering rage that have produced a large number of violent acts.
That she instead uses her access to podium and media to further whip up the followers speaks volumes about both her character and her qualifications as an elected leader.”
KC , was it ok when Obama said “if they use knives , we’ll use guns” , to the roar of the crowd?
Should Sarah Palin just go home and shut up to satisfy your view of a “responsible elected leader”?
Do you read the comments here before posting your views?
I posted that she clearly repudiated supporting ANY violence at the McCain rally in Arizona , and I’m sure echoed that elsewhere on the trail.
She noted any mention of “fight” or whatever was to be taken as elections , and the “weapon” , the vote. And that violence was not the means of the people she was speaking to .
Yet , you reiterate misleadingly that she is inappropriate without regard to her statements .
I dont disrespect a conflicting agenda to mine based on differences of opinion -
I do disrespect based on knowingly unscrupulous tactics and inappropriate character assasination attempts.
on March 31st, 2010 at 11:50 am
Dave,
Unscrupulous? That’s a bit much.
I would rather have a conversation with you than a battle. In that vein, I honestly don’t recall the knives and guns allusion, so I would appreciate your directing me to it.
As far as my condemnation of Palin’s behavior, I stand by my words… Simply because she balances inflammatory rhetoric and publication with an occasional call for non-violence, it doesn’t make it all good.
The call for non-violence needs to be as consistent as a mantra… and yes, on all sides.
on March 31st, 2010 at 6:19 pm
Teabaggers all voted for Dubya twice. No doubt about it.
Dubya illegally “detained” TWO US Citizens without due process.
Dubya illegally started a torture gulag with kangaroo courts.
Dubya LIED 900 TIMES to invade the wrong country.
Obama reformed healthcare.
Obviously Obama’s the bad guy and Dubya did no wrong.
Teabaggers are hypocrites.
And now we know some teabaggers are TERRORISTS.
on March 31st, 2010 at 6:31 pm
Should Sarah Palin just go home and shut up to satisfy your view of a “responsible elected leader”?
Sarah Palin’s a Q U I T T E R.
Probably one step ahead of the law, too.
Yes, she should go home and shut up. She’s a quitter, not a responsible leader.
Go home, Sarah.
Don’t go away mad…just go away.
on March 31st, 2010 at 9:16 pm
So, KC… has anyone considered that making the first of these kind of political actions isn’t a wise idea for anyone on the right wing- since that’s how political arguments turn to wars? It does kind of make one wonder how dumb the red staters think their enemies are; considering that the Tea Parties are often pretty public events.
Personally, as to the knives/guns-conversation/battle thing, I’ll have to admit that I’d prefer a fight, because I’m not a good arguer. There’s no misunderstanding someone using violence.
on April 1st, 2010 at 11:04 am
“Socialism refers to the various theories of economic organization which advocate either public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources.” (Wiki-P)
Let’s get to the details and nuances. The repetition and outrage among folks calling Obama a socialist is simply an inaccurate mantra started by right wing strategists and echoed all the way from Congressional republican mouths to talk shows and in the streets.
The mantra follows the Dick Cheney/Karl Rove/Lee Atwater model coupled with the simplicity of Frank Luntz messaging – repeat the short lie often enough and loud enough and it becomes TRUTH.
A reformed health care system – even one that moves to single payer, does not shove the U.S.A. into the throes of a socialist structure – nor is it a bridge to socialism.
Industrial takeovers will NOT occur; government will NOT assume means of production. America will not be thrust into a classless society… No, you won’t lose all your goodies.
Before you begin screeching that I too, must be some kind of commie, I confess that I am a business owner and therefore operate perfectly happily AS a capitalist.
If you back off the rhetoric just enough, the real distinction lies not in capitalism vs. socialism, but in one very specific slice of society – health care. To those of us on the left, we simply don’t believe that health care is a commodity, one that has been increasingly unavailable to more and more Americans.
Society, i.e. Gov., provides for certain services that are regarded as the commons – police and fire services, public access to clean water, the infrastructure of the entire transportation system.
We liken basic health services to that fire and police protection, and indeed, America has provided those basic care service for senior citizens universally since the 60s. (Oh, and yes, when Medicare went into effect there were the shrill cries of socialism then, as well.)
I don’t imagine that most folks would want to convert our public safety services to private enterprises (for now, I’ll leave Blackwater out of this), it’s not difficult to realize what a catastrophe that would be and was.
Before fire service was public, fire protection and suppression service was a cottage industry. Citizens would pay local fire companies for their services should the need arise. There were often competing companies, and citizens would have to either cover their bases or take the chance on the best guess about who was faster, more competent or better equipped. Companies would arrive at fires but refuse to begin suppression work until the customer bucked up. Needless to say, homes often burnt to the ground as fire crews simply watched.
This is pretty much where are health care system is now. The baseless cries of “Socialist!” mean very little to those that are watching loved ones die because health care, as an industry, will not respond to their fires.
on April 1st, 2010 at 12:32 pm
“Industrial takeovers will NOT occur; government will NOT assume means of production.”
Really? Then, pray tell, what the heck just happened to GM and the student loan industry?
Sorry, your line doesn’t sell.
on April 1st, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Here’s the link you requested KC :
http://www.politicususa.com/en/Obama-Philly
Obama: “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun”
At a fundraiser in Philadelphia where he was flanked by PA governor Ed Rendell, Philadelphia mayor Michael Nutter, and Sen. Bob Casey, Barack Obama said, “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun. Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”
Here’s another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fxu82jB_5Aw
“I’ll put Mr. Burgess against Sean Hannity – he’ll tear him up”
Did Obama mean these literally? Of course not.
Palin has not suggested or condoned violence , has clearly repudiated it and stated that her “weapons” were “elections and votes” , and is not responsible for the few kooks she is unassociated with , anymore than Obama would be.
It is disingenuous to suggest that she is linked to suggesting or inciting any violence , and that if an incident occurs , that she is somehow a factor.
Would he be?
on April 1st, 2010 at 5:48 pm
KC, there’s several communities out there with successful private fire companies. The issues with old fire companies had more to do with disorganization and overall lack of funding rather than “eeeeevil greed”. Now, with defined fire districts, there’s less of a problem.
Wild Wells and Boots & Coots are examples of successful private fire services. You don’t see nationalized oil well blow out teams, do you? What’s more, there’s quite a few private wildland firefighting companies. Many of those crash trucks you see at airports are operated by private companies as well.
You’ll note that we don’t have national standards that mandates what type of services are provided. Not every area needs a 110′ tower truck, swift water rescue, high-angle rescue, urban search and rescue etc. Nor do we have standards mandating that every community have their own fire service. That’s left up to the communities, towns, counties etc. and they can use private companies if they wish.
The whole “Fire departments are SOCIALIST” argument is just as ignorant as the left’s argument that auto insurance is mandated. It’s not for those who don’t drive. You’ll have to do better.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 1:46 am
There are several private fire companies out there providing quality service at lower cost. Not to mention there are plenty of private ambulance companies, some providing 911 service including medivac helicopters. The problems with the fire companies a long time ago was more due to a lack of organization. Those companies weren’t too far from the bucket brigades, remember.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 7:45 am
Obama was born in the US.
Anybody saying otherwise is INSANE.
Someone call the men in white to come pick up Dave Varez.
Bring the straitjacket.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 7:59 am
Jack, Obama did not deliberately seize GM. There was no planned takeover to make it socialist.
GM got dropped in the taxpayers laps because it went under.
And while some schools are failing (and Obana is trying to fix them) the American educational system itself is not failing. It still graduates millions of kids every year. Our public schools are OK.
Putting student loans back under the government is just returning them to their original place. My student loan was with the feds, not some crooked bailed out bank.
Frankly, I’m sick and tired of you un-American teabagger traitors constantly bashing our great Nation and our President.
YOUR bull doesn’t sell, Jack.
Go move to Iran.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 10:46 am
GM didn’t go bankrupt until after the government takeover and, if I’m not mistaken, after Chairman Obama replaced the CEO.
My my, Snorlax. I do believe that’s some of the “hatred” and “bigotry” you libs have been whining about and projecting on others.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Loan programs are not Government takeovers. (Not that I am thrilled w. the bank bailouts, mind you, considering they made money for themselves and have mostly refused to provide loans)
————-
Specialized firefighting services such as those that deal with oil rig fires (think Kuwait) are a different animal than public fire services. Fire suppression at airports is clearly site specific and deals w/ specific suppression needs, mostly w incidents involving highly volatile aviation fuel AND with immediate evacuation needs.
Wildland fires of any significant size always are comprised of crews from a myriad of sectors – from the Forest Service Hotshots and type 2 crews, to the private contractors w/ water trucks and specific skills.
All of these situations require either specialized capabilities and/or long term support and suppression organization… These structures have developed over time as the needs were addressed, and I certainly wouldn’t advocate a wholesale change.
Rob, are you aren’t advocating private fire services for all purposes are you?
BTW, to play this analogy out to the fullest, a combination of public and private services seems to work best in the realm of fire disasters.. Even in the case of single payer (which is a LOOOONG way from this reform bill), the PROVIDERS are still private, and folks would still be able to access a myriad of specialized services privately.
(No, folks on the left do not want taxpayer $ to go for nose jobs.)
But Rob, I have a couple of questions for you and others who are so adamantly opposed to health care reform.
Do you think the system is really working well as it is, and if not, what would be your alternative?
Do you think any American should be able to access proper, basic health care, or do you indeed think that health care IS a commodity that should only be accessed by those that can afford it? If not, how will their health care needs be met?
Finally, Rob, you made this remark:
“The whole “Fire departments are SOCIALIST” argument is just as ignorant as the left’s argument that auto insurance is mandated.”
I don’t know if this was directed at me or if you were just on a bit of a rant; for the record….
I don’t use the auto insurance comparison because its not applicable… No, I don’t see driving as a basic right, but as a privilege that comes with responsibilities.
And this is what I said about fire services…
“Society, i.e. Gov., provides for certain services that are regarded as the commons – police and fire services, public access to clean water, the infrastructure of the entire transportation system.”
Frankly, I don’t care if “socialist” is used to describe these services or not; the term itself elicits such venom that conversation and debate gets relegated to the back burner.
I know blogs are a place to rant and cyber yell and call one another names, but I really do prefer conversation and debate… Sometimes we find common ground, and often find where we are going to agree to disagree.
I think its pretty critical that folks ratchet down the inflammatory speech at all levels, on all sides, and engage in dialogue. Unfortunately, I know it’ll get a whole lot worse before it gets better and ratcheting up is always more easy than down…
Dave, I will check out the link… I gotta get to work
on April 2nd, 2010 at 2:19 pm
“Loan programs are not Government takeovers. (Not that I am thrilled w. the bank bailouts, mind you, considering they made money for themselves and have mostly refused to provide loans)”
Absolute bull. You have a government official setting pay standards and otherwise controlling that company.
Those who own your debt own you, no different with companies than individuals.
Snorlax:
Yep, those great public schools. Have you checked where our rankings versus the rest of the world are now and have been going?
Yep, endlessly down.
The public schools here are an abysmal failure. Doesn’t take too long to figure out why when you start looking at who is involved: politicians, bureaucrats, teachers unions, activist groups and mostly worthless teachers that have no education in anything except worthless “Education” majors.
“Graduating” HS today is really not much of an achievement. It just means you showed up. Why do you think all colleges and uni’s now have “remedial” courses for no credit?
“GM got dropped in the taxpayers laps because it went under.”
Really? Where is the constitutional authority that says if a private entity is failing you have the right to use tax money to take it over?
Let me guess, the “general welfare” clause you folks endlessly misunderstand and deliberately misuse.
I could use a bail out in this economy and have paid lots of taxes, where’s mine! I employ other people and it would be for the “general welfare” that I do not add them to the unemployment line.
(Just for points, the last thing I want is more government in my life.)
“Frankly, I’m sick and tired of you un-American teabagger traitors constantly bashing our great Nation and our President.”
You’ll be REAL sick and tired in November. Calling out the truth about our schools and death spiral is not bashing,
Our president has EARNED that bashing.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 5:40 pm
jack…
By your logic, No loan program should EVER be employed, by ANY entity, public or private, because yes, they do have to run by specific standards. Borrowers must make certain payments with a certain amount of interest and meet certain deadlines.
Further, your rant about public schools does seem to employ typical republican process… Completely de-fund schools and than bitch and moan about how lousy they are. This is exactly what the R admins have done to the good ol’ USA – Bush DOUBLED the National debt in only 8 years from 5.7 trillion to well over 11 trillion dollars.
… and NOW the teapartiers notice! Sheesh!
on April 2nd, 2010 at 6:19 pm
Snorlax:
“Obama was born in the US.
Anybody saying otherwise is INSANE.
Someone call the men in white to come pick up Dave Varez.”
Bring the straitjacket.”
““Frankly, I’m sick and tired of you un-American teabagger traitors constantly bashing our great Nation and our President.”
Snorlax , you are a nasty , angry , H-AT-E-F-U-L person , you offer nothing of any value to the debate , and you attempt to force your views on others .
I feel that Obama has not adequately addressed the issue of his birth. I do not know if he was born here or not.
Your insults and ignorance are only a reflection on yourself and your positions rather than on others who attempt to delineate their views pursuant to intelligent debate.
You remind me of the liberal who angrily bit off the finger of an old man because he dared to oppose this healthcare legislation. Was that you?
See you at the next elections.
You can reference the Massachusetts Senate race for a sneak preview.
Note: In your haste to respond ignorantly , you failed to address my point that not one poll indicates a majority in favor of this legislation -
The Massachusetts election being the major operant “poll”.
on April 4th, 2010 at 10:34 am
“Rob, are you aren’t advocating private fire services for all purposes are you?”
Why not? If they can do the job and save the tax payers some money, sure. Services change all the time depending on the needs of the community. An example of this change, while not an example of private companies, several towns in my county have dumped their own police departments in favor of the sheriff’s office. They can do the same job for less money. What’s more, if communities can get fire service without paying union protection money, why so much the better.
“Do you think the system is really working well as it is, and if not, what would be your alternative?”
Currently, it could use some fixing. The biggest reform that we need is to get the government the hell out of the way. That’s where a lot of the costs come into play. My favorite alternative was the one put forth by the CEO of Whole Foods in the WSJ last year. Thing is, that would work best if the people were allowed to keep more of their own money.
“Do you think any American should be able to access proper, basic health care,” blahblahblah, yakity smakity.
Contrary to popular liberal belief, the American people DO have access to proper, basic health care.
“Further, your rant about public schools does seem to employ typical republican process… Completely de-fund schools and than bitch and moan about how lousy they are.”
[Citation Needed]
“Bush DOUBLED the National debt in only 8 years from 5.7 trillion to well over 11 trillion dollars.
and NOW the teapartiers notice! Sheesh!”
If you rounded the 10.6 trillion to 11, why didn’t you round the 5.7 to 6? While the debt increased 53% while Bush was in office, it has increased 83% while the Man-child Candidate has been in office (through April 1).
Sheesh indeed.
on April 4th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
“Bush DOUBLED the National debt in only 8 years from 5.7 trillion to well over 11 trillion dollars.
… and NOW the teapartiers notice! Sheesh!”
KC , this comment exemplifies the fact that many who are demeaning people and groups are not even versed in their composition and agenda.
Comments exhibiting disenchantment with Obama policies elicits responses such as “racist” -
But the fact that the same ilk of comments , attributable directly to Bush spending policies , have been made as well – is unknown!
In the zeal to demean as a strategic vehicle , the evidence that the agenda is anti-spending , and not personal or even political , goes unnoticed.
on April 4th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
Who was it who said “the weak justification of ‘ha, you did it too!’”???
on April 4th, 2010 at 10:10 pm
I’m overwhelmed and saddened. All these responses are on the SPLC site…you know, “Fighting Hate • Teaching Tolerance”?
If this space is riddled with hate and intolerance, then what hope is there for the rest of America, not to mention the world?
(I wish the hurtful comments didn’t overshadow the rest.)
on April 4th, 2010 at 10:41 pm
I had asked:
“Rob, are you aren’t advocating private fire services for all purposes are you?”
Rob said:
Why not? If they can do the job and save the tax payers some money, sure. Services change all the time depending on the needs of the community. An example of this change, while not an example of private companies, several towns in my county have dumped their own police departments in favor of the sheriff’s office. They can do the same job for less money. What’s more, if communities can get fire service without paying union protection money, why so much the better.
My response: You said it yourself, Rob, Sheriffs Depts. ARE public, so there is really no analogy here, and I agree, depending on the area size of cities, towns and counties, this may be appropriate. This is a far cry from privatization.
Let me be very clear: privatization MEANS for-profit companies operating the show. By law, it’s a corporation’s responsibility to make money for its shareholders. Basic fire services and law enforcement should never be handed over to such an entity because the primary goal is the dollar.
This is not to say that private sector security and fire service specialty companies should not exist. Enhanced security systems provided by private companies are (sadly) essential needs in many instances and for most businesses. I have already noted that specialty services provided by private fire suppression firms are critical in various sectors.
I further asked:
“Do you think any American should be able to access proper, basic health care,”
Rob answerd:
“blahblahblah, yakity smakity.
“Contrary to popular liberal belief, the American people DO have access to proper, basic health care.”
My response:
Well, Rob neither comment will win you any debate points. I don’t have to respond in kind to your kindergartenism, and if you think the American public is well served, you are living in a cocoon, and anything I say will have no impact on you. I suggest you turn off Faux news and do a little of your own research… perhaps do a little Google search and find out about the tent city health clinics that infrequently pop up in order to serve citizens that have no health care access.
Rob said:
If you rounded the 10.6 trillion to 11, why didn’t you round the 5.7 to 6? While the debt increased 53% while Bush was in office, it has increased 83% while the Man-child Candidate has been in office (through April 1).
My response:
Your conflating numbers… Your 83% is the 2009 comparison of debt to GDP.. Yes, the National debt has grown more since Obama has been in office, (almost 12.7 trillion right now) Do you actually think you can stop a runaway train on a dime? Commitments by Bush & company (wars, tax cuts to the rich, bank bailout) plus accelerating interest because of the outrageous spending 2001-1008 are still making it’s mark.
Yes, the current admin is spending more borrowed money and this is contributing to the debt. But I can look out the window as I type and see the roadwork occurring and jobs created by the Stimulus money. A good number of economists actually recommend this short term debt increase specifically to help rebound the economy.
Trying to blame Obama for the explosion of the National debt is like trying to blame the body shop for not being able to straighten the frame of a wreck.
But really, I have tried to have a decent conversation with you and you come up with “blahblahblah” and “manchild”.
It is clear that you are entrenched in your own biases, and you have little interest in the broader community of Americans working together to find solutions to the country’s significant problems. It’s your way or the highway. You minimize the damage the Bush Admin. wrought, and you demean the current admin., and yes “manchild” IS racist, but I doubt that concerns you.
Obviously, this conversation has gone as far as it can.
on April 4th, 2010 at 11:33 pm
I said:
“Bush DOUBLED the National debt in only 8 years from 5.7 trillion to well over 11 trillion dollars.
“… and NOW the teapartiers notice! Sheesh!”
Dave said:
KC , this comment exemplifies the fact that many who are demeaning people and groups are not even versed in their composition and agenda.
Comments exhibiting disenchantment with Obama policies elicits responses such as “racist”
My response:
I have acknowledged that some teapartiers will disavow themselves from the racism and racist overtones of the teaparty movement. But, it is as clear as the teapartier signs depicting Obama as an African tribesman that there is significant amount of racism exhibiting itself in the movement. This kind of image is not simply a “comment exhibiting disenchantment with Obama policies”.
Even Rob’s crack above (“manchild”) clearly reflects a pervasive racist thread.
If you are not like this, fine, but if you choose to associate yourself with teapartiers, you will be considered guilty until proven innocent by many.
You may feel like the Teaparty is not getting a fair shake in the press, because the press always focuses on the most obnoxious, disgusting visual images and little on the group’s policy and agenda. I am of 2 minds on this; 1) those folks with the signs, carrying the guns, etc… are there to get the attention and presenting EXACTLY the image they want the press to see. 2) Folks in the TP movement who don’t like this image should either work to change the movement from w/in or simply get out and try to work another way.
Don’t count on the press to change; they will always put their cameras on the most vile in the group.
—
Oh, and I did check out the link you left regarding the knife comment by Obama. There wasn’t a video link, so I still couldn’t get the full context. I’m not really thrilled with the allusion, but what struck me most was that this was way back in June 2008, well before folks really started arming themselves (and even before Palin became a household name).
I would bet that Obama wouldn’t even dream of making this metaphor in today’s intense environment. Context is important.
on April 5th, 2010 at 10:41 am
KC , you didn’t focus on the point I made that the teaparty people are not enthused with Bush spending either , and so it is not the case that they “just noticed ” this. Even now , they often mention Bush spending.
“you will be considered guilty until proven innocent by many.”
Once again , you are extrapolating assumptions about the many based on the few , and then , reversing the concept of justice we live by per your quote above – which I’m sure you would quote in the reverse if you were the accused.
Racism exists. Less than it used to , but still the case. Per the point “EM” made a few posts up ,
why are we focusing on the racism of a few , which we know exists , to comprise an entire movement based on a philosophical and financial governmental agenda having nothing to do with race?
Do I have to go and provide you links pertaining to the horrible racism aimed at Condi Rice , Clarence Thomas , and Colin Powell when the “racist” Republicans elevated these Black Americans to positions never before held by any ,
including by liberal Democrat administrations?
Were all those racist comments by liberals less racist or credible than the ones you refer to now?
Should I consider all Libs “guilty until proven innocent” in those cases?
I think that would be totally inappropriate to do , and I didn’t even want to quote Obama’s comments which I did , accompanied by my qualification that he of course meant nothing violent ,
But you cant take issues that do exist unilaterally and attribute them to only one side where a small percent exhibit bad behavior and not expect the obvious rebuke that
1) it is a tiny minority not supported or representative of the many , and
2) YOUR SIDE can be depicted similarly if you insist on using this bogus issue as “credible” to point out that yeah , there’s nuts on either side – so what? , and surprise surprise.
“I would bet that Obama wouldn’t even dream of making this metaphor in today’s intense environment. Context is important.”
I have to wonder if you wish you could have deleted that comment?
Who decides when it’s ok? When a Lib attack is ongoing against Conservatives , Obama should be careful what he says , otherwise it’s ok?
And interpreting Palin’s self proclaimed non violence as violent anyway is ok , but Obama’s not?
So Palin pointing out that she is referring to elections and votes , not violence , doesn’t count per your “context is important”?
As for healthcare , nobody – NOBODY – is against changes and reform , and coverage for the poor.
The argument is in how it is done , my opinion being that this legislation is financially onerous and crushing.
And trial lawyers , sc – bags like Edwards can still extract onerous sums from medical providers , because NOTHING has been done about that , other than a few words saying “harumph , we’ll , uh , have to “look into that”.
on April 5th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
To KC Hanson:
Private and public sector are two different animals. Your argument is a red herring.
The government should not be in the business of owning private businesses. This has nothing to do with the act of loaning money.
As far as defunding schools goes you’re really out there. The local school system where I live spends WAY more than I spent on private education per child. They get horrible results while I get good results.
Here is a good example. I have three children. All have been privately schooled for less than the feds and locals spend.
Oldest is currently getting a doctorate on a 100% free ride scholarship he earned.
The second is finishing his BS now and after his earned scholarships etc, his college education will have cost a total of about 12,000.
My third is headed to college next year. He already has most of it paid through scholarships.
Now, since we are white folks, we do not get all kinds of bogus scholarships that are race based. All of theirs are earned through academic performance.
All of them have attended or will be attending Tier One schools.
on April 5th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
From jack, “To KC Hanson:
Private and public sector are two different animals. Your argument is a red herring.
The government should not be in the business of owning private businesses. This has nothing to do with the act of loaning money.”
You must be entirely misunderstanding my points. I absolutely do not advocate the Gov. ownership of private business. Describing Gov. loan programs as a form of “ownership,” if that is what you are doing, is entirely inaccurate and off-base.
Jack continued:
“As far as defunding schools goes you’re really out there. The local school system where I live spends WAY more than I spent on private education per child. They get horrible results while I get good results…”
My response; good for you and your kids. Clearly, you are of sufficient means to be able to significantly invest in your kids education, and you are to be commended for it.
Does this mean the kid down the street who’s family is of less means doesn’t at least deserve an adequate education in the public sector?
A far as spending comparisons, you can no more say I am off base, and assume facts about my geographic area, than I can about yours. Education HAS been increasingly underfunded in my state over the last generation. Programs have been slashed, schools have been closed, and teachers and parents are spending more of their own money to support their kids’ education.
It is fine and good for you to be able to opt out, but fewer families have that capability,
As far as a dollar for dollar comparison between public and private costs per student, your spending may or may not be an actual reflection of cost per student the school has available. Most private schools have endowments and investments that dramatically reduce the actual cost a family pays for the child’s education. Public school districts generally describe their entire budgets in terms of cost per student.
Finally you reveal yourself, though, in this statement:
“Now, since we are white folks, we do not get all kinds of bogus scholarships that are race based. All of theirs are earned through academic performance.”
First of all, there are a myriad of scholarships available to kids that fit specific descriptions, from every walk of life and practically every cultural heritage.
Via your position in this culture, as a white folk, you have been able to be ahead in the game from the get-go. Your attitude is a pervasive example that the equality that has been sought for decades still isn’t there. You actually resent the opportunities afforded to people of another race, mistakenly thinking that you and the parents of those kids have grown into adulthood on an even playing field.
You haven’t.
on April 5th, 2010 at 7:08 pm
KC,
I was merely demonstrating how public services do change. I grew up in a small town outside Jackson, MS. Our ambulance service was provided by JFD and one would usually have to wait 15-20 minutes for an ambulance to arrive. The county requested that an ambulance be stationed in my town so wait times could be reduced. The government, who provided the service, refused. So the county went with a private ambulance company. To my knowledge, they still provide the service.
” I suggest you turn off Faux news and do a little of your own research… ”
I don’t watch Fox or any other news and haven’t for at least 6 years. I sift through the news on my own and have done my own research. On very rare occasions, I have watched Bay News 9 (CNN affiliate) for local news, but that’s once every other blue moon.
Do you think, perhaps, I should watch the lilly white MSDNC who gets off on finding racism where there isn’t any? Maybe I should the bloated Ed Schultz who once said that Babe Ruth wasn’t that great of a ball player because he didn’t have to compete with “the bruthas”.
“Your conflating numbers… Your 83% is the 2009 comparison of debt to GDP”
Actually, I looked at the national debt from 20 January 2001-20 January 2009 and, with a calculator, found an increase of 53%. Then I looked at the national debt from 20 January 2009 – 1 April 2010 and, with a calculator, found an increase of 83%. I don’t see how I conflated anything nor compared debt to GDP.
“But I can look out the window as I type and see the roadwork occurring and jobs created by the Stimulus money.”
Did you open the window and ask how many of them were employed before the democrat slush fund was passed? I can tell you that my job was “saved or created” last year and I still haven’t found a job. I don’t have to look out my window to see that Florida’s unemployment has increased since the passage of the slush fund.
“Trying to blame Obama for the explosion of the National debt is like trying to blame the body shop for not being able to straighten the frame of a wreck.”
You admit that he’s spending tons of money, yet maintain that he has nothing to do with the national debt. How does that work?
“But, it is as clear as the teapartier signs depicting Obama as an African tribesman that there is significant amount of racism exhibiting itself in the movement. This kind of image is not simply a “comment exhibiting disenchantment with Obama policies”.”
One of the benefits of sifting through the news on your own is that you find out that the folks who hold the signs liberals say are racist Republicans are actually the Larouche folks. Remember that link I posted above to the ZombieTime blog? In one instance, last year, there was a fellow at a town hall holding a sign like that who was later seen handing out pamphlets for the local dem representative. Of course that doesn’t make it on the lilly white MSDNC because it doesn’t fit their narrative of the allegedly racist TEA party folks.
Nor will they tell you that the guy in Houston with the sign that said Congress is the slave masters and the tax payers are the “Niggars” was ejected by the TEA party folks. But that doesn’t fit their narrative either, so you don’t learn about that.
“A good number of economists actually recommend this short term debt increase specifically to help rebound the economy.”
Instead of repeating this meme, why not tell us who these economists are? And while you’re at it, why not provide evidence of these medical tent cities?
And how is describing Chairman Obama as a spoiled little child “racist” in any way? Except that any criticism of him is deemed “racist”.
on April 5th, 2010 at 7:13 pm
Ooops! Forgot this one:
“Let me be very clear: privatization MEANS for-profit companies operating the show. By law, it’s a corporation’s responsibility to make money for its shareholders.”
Yes, but they also have a responsibility to uphold contract agreements they make with the communities they serve. What’s more, they create jobs for people and their shareholders, if the company is public, are people too. Those people are taxpayers too.
on April 6th, 2010 at 12:54 am
I am amazed at the ignorance that I see everyday. Everyone writing on this website claiming that Tea Party people are a bunch of racists are the ones who are truly racist and ignorant. I am Cuban born. For the ignorant I will explain what that means. It means that I come from a country where if you express your opinion you are thrown in jail. It also means that I am of mulatto blood. I am not a racist. It is a country where Health Care is free but where you have to show up at the hospital with your own medicine and sheets and food. I see dumb ignorant Black Caucus members praising Fidel Castro because they went to Cuba and he paraded them around and showed them the beautiful country! Stop being stupid! If you really want to know what Cuba is about (Communism) come down to Miami. Find a Cuban restaurant called “La Carreta” at 87th ave and Bird road. Walk in and start interviewing people and why they moved to this country. When Castro came into power all Cubans loved him. After he declared himself communist people still thought he might be a nice guy (just like Obama). My mom begged my dad to leave and he responded, “Are you crazy, I will leave Cuba the day they ration sugar!” My father said this as a joke. Cuba was the largest sugar producer in the world at the time. Two years later my father stood in line to receive his sugar ration and decided it was time to leave the country. I am not a hater. I am a Catholic missionary as a matter of fact. Teach a man to fish, give him his dignity. Giving people a handout is Charity, making them dependent on your handouts is Evil. This country was born of independent, hardworking, religous people that came here to live in a society of tolerance. That’s who we imigrants are! You who take the American way of life for granted are destroying it. Wake up and go to a real Tea Party. I challenge you. I was there last year and I was not abused. I was praised and congratulated. Do not let people fill you with fear and hatred of a Tea Party. Come and understand that a Tea Party is about protecting this country. If you don’t believe that I am Cuban because of my perfect English then read this in Spanish if you can!
Ustedes son unos ignorantes. Fidel Catsro es un monstruo. El mata a todos que van en contra de el. Salven a sus pais y encuentrense conmigo en un Tea Party, Socio!
on April 6th, 2010 at 10:10 am
Appreciate your post Carlos.
But -
“Everyone writing on this website claiming that Tea Party people are a bunch of racists are the ones who are truly racist and ignorant.”
I think some are , but I hope that many have simply been misled by an unfortunate Party agenda designed to mislead , which is why I take the time and trouble to post and link here as I do.
I am not trying to change anybody’s mind about Obama’s policies , just provide facts to be considered and any who dont agree , fine , that is what we are all supposed to be about.
But I most certainly am trying to change people’s minds about the slander and subterfuge being used against a peaceful political movement (which , I should point out , I have no connection with , and as well , no political connections period) , banded together to protest what they consider bad and onerous financial and social policy.
Did anybody notice how the story changed about the “arrest” per the “spitting” on a Black Caucus Congressman once the actual video , AND the police report conflicting with the actual claims made by the Democrat operatives was released?
Or the facts concerning a brick being thrown through a Dem Congressman’s office window
once it was made known that the office was on the 30th floor of the building?
Or the Dem plants being “outed” at rallies?
I’m sure some improper comments and actions have occurred , but they do not represent the actions nor garner the approval and support of the majority ,
And this occurs on both sides – many incidents can be documented to support this – as all well know is the case ,
And a concerted , organized , and disingenuous effort is being made by the Dem machine to chastise the many improperly if they can manage to get away with it.
Regardless of political beliefs , I hope those intending to play fair and having a concience will consider what is being done and not change your politics (though that wouldn’t be a bad idea!) , but refute the repulsive tactics being used
in the name of what you believe.
on April 6th, 2010 at 11:02 am
Carlos: you nailed it, my friend. And I can read Spanish better than I can speak it.
KC: “Your attitude is a pervasive example that the equality that has been sought for decades still isn’t there. ”
I wonder, where is the “equality” in universities having different standards for different races and sexes in admissions? How is admitting students based on sex and skin color rather than achievement “equal”? Thanks to the party of slavery and segregation trying to erase their White Guilt, no there isn’t “equality” out there.
on April 6th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
KC Hanson:
“You must be entirely misunderstanding my points. I absolutely do not advocate the Gov. ownership of private business. Describing Gov. loan programs as a form of “ownership,” if that is what you are doing, is entirely inaccurate and off-base.”
No it’s not. When the fed owns the loan and controls pay like they do they are controlling it and owning it.
It’s all semantic. If I have a business, but you own all the debt and make the financial decisions, my ownership is almost meaningless.
Not to mention the government recently started selling off shares of CitiCorp it owned.
Owning stock makes you an owner of that company by definition.
“Does this mean the kid down the street who’s family is of less means doesn’t at least deserve an adequate education in the public sector?”
It is quite rare to see a public HS graduate these days that has an education even approaching what I would qualify as adequate.
“Via your position in this culture, as a white folk, you have been able to be ahead in the game from the get-go. Your attitude is a pervasive example that the equality that has been sought for decades still isn’t there. You actually resent the opportunities afforded to people of another race, mistakenly thinking that you and the parents of those kids have grown into adulthood on an even playing field.”
Not at all, or even close. My family was blue collar and my father self employed. He grew up in a Catholic orphanage because my grandmother had 12 children and when her husband died could not afford to feed them.
We all worked very hard for what we have, we were never “ahead of the game.”
It took the combined work and assets of my father, my grandparents on both sides and myself to put me through school.
It was all earned.
Anyone can go out and accomplish what we did. We had no inheritances backing us up and no silver spoon.
It takes hard, hard work and drive and the common sense to not demand immediate gratification for everything, something no one seems to understand today.
on April 6th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
So, what’s the difference between the Tea Party thugs and Fred Phelps’ Westboro Baptist Church? One is political and one is religious. The Tea Party is more likely to engage in violence. Other than that they sure look a lot alike.
on April 6th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
This is an irresponsible article. If you read the title and the first few paragraphs, you would think someone cut the gas line to a man’s home and potentially blew up his house. If you read a little further, you find the truth- a line from a propane tank to a gas grill on a screened in porch was severed. There is no mention of the porch screen being cut for access.
Extrapolating from this story that all tea party activists are thugs is irresponsible. No one knows who severed the line yet. This is just a desperate attempt to make a story where none exists.
on April 6th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
Rob, it’s hard to get by your stupid comments (‘Manchild, “Chairman Obama”) in an effort to have a civil conversation with you regarding policy points. If you don’t think using the term “manchild” as racist, why don’t you ask one of your African American friends what s/he thinks of it.
Teaparty Impressions
Your careful sifting of Teaparty video does not prove anything further. The press presents what sells ad time; the more obnoxious, the more likely the viewer will hang w/ a show through ads after the tease.
The real question is not for me or any of us that look at the Teaparty w/ skepticism and disdain. It is for those of you in it. What are you going to do to change the image
of your organization, and do you really care to?
The National Debt
Even using your National debt numbers of 10.6 trillion (end of Bush era) to 12.7 trillion (occurring soon)… that’s not 83%, and no one needs to yank out a calculator to see it.
But the thing is, arguing about percentages and how we got to them is fairly meaningless without context. Bush REVERSED the trend of fiscal responsibility when he turned inherited surpluses and an actual debt reduction to massive overspending and reductions in taxes to the wealthiest corps and citizens. Obama got on this train when it was already way out of control.
And at the same time, the economy must be stimulated, and no, after 8 years of Bush and supply-side theory on steroids, enough of that. Having a fit because Obama is, at a point barely more than a year into his term, unable to address deficits because of the economy BushCo left the country is wholly hypocritical right wing BS.
Private vs. Public
Rob, you said; “Yes, but they (private companies/corps.) also have a responsibility to uphold contract agreements they make with the communities they serve. What’s more, they create jobs for people and their shareholders, if the company is public, are people too. Those people are taxpayers too.”
I’m not going to disagree with you here because you use a very important term: “contract”. By it’s nature, a contract is a form of specific regulation, and depending on the community, and the myriad of variables involved, and the structure and accountability mandated in a contract, a private enterprise may serve specific needs well.
In your described situation in MS, the local government worked with a private service provider and stipulated certain contractual terms which best served the community, and it turned out a winner.
This contact, a government contract, actually just about takes us full circle, because, to a large degree, this is how health care reform is structured. Medical providers are and will remain private, but will continue to provide service paid for by the Gov. You and I will continue to disagree about the influence and involvement of Insurance companies, which build the real walls between patients and doctors.
Which segways me to my final comment, a summation of sorts …
This TP “outrage” started with Health Care reform, & I’ll close with it.
The HC bill will soon
-provide incentives for businesses to provide HC insurance for employees
-prevent insurance companies from refusing coverage for folks w/ “pre-existing” conditions
-prevent insurance companies from cutting off insurance to those that become ill
-start to close the “donut hole,” the gap in prescription coverage negotiated under Bush
-allow young adults to remain on their parent’s policies until 26YOA
-see that close to 30 million Americans, previously unserved, will now have access to basic HC services
These are bad things? You are outraged by this?
OOOHHH, you still are howling about the cost… From the CBO: ” ..estimates that the net effect (including the reconciliation act) will be a reduction in the federal deficit by $143 billion dollars over the first decade.”#
# Congressional Budget Office, Cost Estimates for H.R. 4872, Reconciliation Act of 2010 (Final Health Care Legislation) (March 20, 2010).
Rob, to your specific requests for sites:
TENT health care
(Note: I absolutely applaud the energy and efforts of the orgs and volunteers that put these clinics on, esp the RAM teams in the links below. It is a sad commentary about our HC system, that there is a need for them)
from CBS/ 60 Minutes – A Must See
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9JmEHsCv4c
http://www.scpr.org/news/2009/.....-inside-i/
http://legalruralism.blogspot......rural.html
ECONOMISTS on the Stimulus:
http://yglesias.thinkprogress......failed.php
How about a Nobel prize winner for you?…
http://www.advisorperspectives.....imulus.pdf
——
Now then, be well all. I have spent enough time in this discussion, and since I may finally be recovering from my cold, I need to pull away from the computer .
KC
on April 6th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
PS
I wanted to set this aside in it’s own post, because regardless of you political views, this is important to see if you are passionate about health care issues:
from CBS/ 60 Minutes – A Must See
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9JmEHsCv4c
on April 6th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
“Rob, it’s hard to get by your stupid comments (‘Manchild, “Chairman Obama”) in an effort to have a civil conversation with you regarding policy points. If you don’t think using the term “manchild” as racist, why don’t you ask one of your African American friends what s/he thinks of it.”
So I did. He thought it was funny and spot on. For good measure, I asked my Hispanic partner. He said pretty much the same thing. No, what’s hard to get by is that you’re wrong and you know it. What’s hard to get by is the fact that folks aren’t keen on being lied to about manufactured “hate” hoaxes. What’s hard to get by is that the party of slavery and segregation, who’ve decimated the black community with their policies, has the audacity to call anybody racist.
” It is for those of you in it. What are you going to do to change the image
of your organization, and do you really care to? ”
There’s no “image” to change. The left has manufactured an image and despite repeating it over and over again, it’s still not true. No matter how you spin it, YOU’RE the party of hate, racist, sexist, bigot homophobes.
“The HC bill will soon”
It’s going to be 2019 before everybody is allegedly covered.
“-provide incentives for businesses to provide HC insurance for employees”
Until they realize it’s cheaper not to and take the tax hit instead.
“-prevent insurance companies from refusing coverage for folks w/ “pre-existing” conditions”
So did the 1996 HIPAA laws. The reality is that no matter how many stories the liberals made up, it really isn’t that huge of a problem.
“-prevent insurance companies from cutting off insurance to those that become ill”
Driving up costs.
“-start to close the “donut hole,” the gap in prescription coverage negotiated under Bush”
And require folks to get brand name medication, no generics and still none of the much vaunted Canadian imports.
“-allow young adults to remain on their parent’s policies until 26YOA”
God forbid anybody take responsibility for themselves. Keep sponging off mommy and daddy.
“-see that close to 30 million Americans, previously unserved, will now have access to basic HC services”
I thought it was 47 million. What about the other 17 million?
“OOOHHH, you still are howling about the cost… From the CBO:”
Which ALWAYS under estimates, except when it came to Bush’s Medicare legislation. Can you name any liberal social program that hasn’t cost us beau coup cash, isn’t in danger of collapsing, and/or hasn’t decimated an entire race?
“It is a sad commentary about our HC system,”
Knoxville isn’t exactly rural. I thought this would be way up in the hills of TN. That guy that drove 200 miles, how many hospitals, free hospitals, free clinics, county or state clinics did he drive past?
No, what’s a sad commentary is that we have a political party and their lemmings, who eschew logic in favor of emotion, lying to the American people. What’s sad is that we have a president keen on convincing people that eeeeeevil doctors are out to cut off their legs to make money. We have a president who has to make up stories about people cut off from their insurance when in reality, they were getting the care they needed. We have a political party willing to lie to the American people about how many people are uninsured and why. That’s not only sad, it’s outrageous and fairly near criminal. The people weren’t buying it, but the liberals said “Damn the American people! Ram it through anyway!”
“How about a Nobel prize winner for you?…”
For one thing, he promotes the lie that Obama issued tax cuts, which he didn’t. What’s more, the alleged tax cuts are moot anyway with all the taxes coming down the pike. For another thing, Nobel Prizes are pretty much meaningless and have been for quite a while now. I’d be more impressed if someone was elected class president in the third grade.
Glad you only have a cold and don’t have to start looking for another country where you can actually get treated.
on April 6th, 2010 at 10:41 pm
Oops! Forgot another:
“Bush REVERSED the trend of fiscal responsibility when he turned inherited surpluses and an actual debt reduction to massive overspending and reductions in taxes to the wealthiest corps and citizens. Obama got on this train when it was already way out of control.”
You left out the all important “proposed” part of the alleged surplus. In other words, it existed only on paper. It also included non-budgetary items to inflate the numbers. What’s more, it was a proposed budget surplus for the next ten years and didn’t include much (if any) of the Clinton recession or the 9/11 attacks. And you and I both know that Congress don’t stick to 10 year plans. Oh, and one hint to the lack of a solid existence of it was that nobody could say how much it actually was. Go back and listen to the liberals who trumpeted the surplus that Bush allegedly “squandered”. It’s a different number every time they talk about it, isn’t it?
Now, about those tax reductions on the wealthiest, would you mind, terribly, explaining who it is that pays taxes? And then there’s this, for example:
“Federal deficit shrinks due to record tax collections
WASHINGTON (AP) — The deficit for the first four months of the current budget year is down sharply from the same period a year ago as the government continues to benefit from record levels of tax collections.”
http://tinyurl.com/yzvpnab
Well how can that be if the rich weren’t paying their taxes? Naturally, the USA Today won’t tell you how, but it’s the same reason revenues went up when Reagan cut taxes and when Kennedy did the same.
If you look at the national debt on the Treasury website, the largest increase was in 2004 and was decreasing since then. And yes, Bush was in the process of shrinking the deficit. Now that Chairman Obama is in office, we have real “massive overspending”, massive debt, massive deficit, massive unemployment etc. This is unsustainable, but the left doesn’t seem to care. That’s why all the “racists” are getting ticked off.
And finally, I’ll ask you to remind us who’s been holding the purse strings since 2007.
on April 7th, 2010 at 8:02 am
“The real question is not for me or any of us that look at the Teaparty w/ skepticism and disdain. It is for those of you in it. What are you going to do to change the image
of your organization, and do you really care to? ”
KC , are you a tea party member? It sounds like it from your comment , discussing its image like you are on its executive committee.
IMO , the answer to your question is no , they shouldn’t really care.
Just as Obama fooled many followers into thinking he was going to pursue various agenda’s which he did not , and now they are disenchanted with him ,
That same machine has attempted to fabricate a non existent view of the tea party movement , and no , they should not accept the position of “proving” it is not the case , and changing anything to allow the smear campaign to deter them from their original goals.
For every slur and innuendo thrown at them , similar negative comments , examples , and innuendo’s can be hurled back at the other side -
IF that was the agenda. But it is not. The agenda is clear , and I believe goes way beyond the “tea party” , and they dont need to explain or defend themselves , as clear headed people understand what is being attempted and are disgusted at the attempt by the “John Edwards Party”
(“So , Vice President Cheney , I congradulate you on your Lesbian daughter” , right in the middle of a Vice Presidential debate . Cheney should have congradulated Edwards back with a right hook. What slime tactics).
” Having a fit because Obama is, at a point barely more than a year into his term, unable to address deficits because of the economy BushCo left the country is wholly hypocritical right wing BS.”
KC , are you sure you have even ever listened to anything the tea party has said?
They are no more happy with Bush’s spending policies than Obama’s. But you keep talking as if that isn’t the case. You ASSUME that because Bush is Republican , they approve his spending agenda. But they dont. Because they aren’t political. And they aren’t racist. They are sick of big gov and big spending , whether it is Bush OR Obama.
Your alluding to Bush’s spending is not relevant –
Regardless of its cost and problems , what is being addressed right now is that the Obama present and future taxing and spending and government expansion is being opposed – that Bush overdid it does not excuse that Obama is mega-overdoing it exponentially.
“regardless of you political views, this is important to see if you are passionate about health care issues:”
You want everyone to have healthcare?
Raise the income limit for Medicaid , lower the age limit for Medicare with an income test below 65 , give healthcare insurance tax credits , achieve tort reform and deregulation of interstate policy constraints ,
And regulate health insurance companies as if they were quasi utilities – meaning they have to offer certain minimum provisions , BUT-
They operate freely without interference AND are guaranteed a profit – which regulated utilities are -
Everyone has healthcare with a 20 page bill , and the government has very little involvement other than to enforce regulation and operation , as it does with utilities.
BUT NOOOOOO -
We have to have a 3000 page bill costing trillions with massive gov intervention and infrastructure in every State with Obama , who HAS NEVER EVEN READ THE BILL , as our “savior”.
Gimmee a break.