Hatewatch Tweets
Hatewatch is managed by the staff of the Intelligence Report, an investigative magazine published by the Alabama-based civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center.
Nine Members of the Hutaree Militia Indicted in Plans for ‘Armed Conflict’
Nine members of the Hutaree Militia were indicted today in what federal authorities are describing as a plot to murder a law enforcement officer in Michigan and then attack other officials who gathered for the funeral. The five-count indictment followed a series of raids in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana over the weekend.
The Hutaree Militia first came to the attention of the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) in 2009, when researchers found the group’s MySpace page. Two chapters of the militia, one in Michigan and one in Utah, were included on the SPLC’s list of militia groups released earlier this month. The Utah chapter held at least one training in 2009.
The Hutaree Militia had close links to several other American militias, according to the group’s MySpace profile. The profile, which carried the slogan “violence solves everything,” shows that the group has 366 “friends.” The militia’s page was linked to dozens of other militias, including the Ohio Militia, the Michigan Militia Corps, the Kentucky State Militia, the Central Texas Militia and others. The indictment alleges that in February “several of the conspirators attempted to travel to Kentucky to attend a summit of militia groups.”
The indictment charges the defendants with seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence.
The government alleges that members of the antigovernment Hutaree Militia, which is based in eastern Michigan’s Lenawee County and has been conducting “military-style training” there since 2008, conspired to “levy war against the United States.” According to the indictment, Hutaree members view local, state and federal law enforcement as an enemy “brotherhood” that they were preparing to engage in armed conflict.
Authorities said the Hutaree planned to kill an unidentified, local law enforcement official, then attack the funeral with improvised explosive devices and “explosively formed projectiles,” which, according to the indictment, constitute weapons of mass destruction.
The indictment by a grand jury in Detroit covered charges that took place between August 2008 and today. The defendants are David Brian Stone, 45, and his wife, Tina Stone, 44, his son Joshua Matthew Stone, 21, of Clayton, Mich., and his other son David Brian Stone Jr., 19, of Adrian, Mich. Also arrested in Michigan and indicted were Joshua Clough, 28, of Blissfield and Michael Meeks, 40 of Manchester. In Indiana, Thomas Piatek, 46, of Whiting was arrested. In Ohio, Kristopher Sickles, 27, of Sandusky and Jacob Ward, 33, of Huron were arrested.
The arrests again show the growing danger from America’s radical right, where a pervasive rage against the government has become red hot. In a report released in March, “Rage on the Right,” the SPLC documented 512 antigovernment “Patriot” groups, which include armed militias, operating by the end of 2009. That represents a 244 percent increase over the previous year’s count of 149. The number of militia groups rose from 42 in 2008 to 127 in 2009.
The SPLC documented a total of 75 domestic terrorism plots between the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 and 2009. The majority of those plots were concocted by individuals with extreme antigovernment views.
on March 29th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
“The indictment charges the defendants with seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence.”
Ok, where are these WMD’s, when did they attempt to use them, what crime of violence?
Sure sounds like a bunch of bull.
Lots of charges, no actual evidence.
on March 29th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
See Tea Party supporters- THIS is why the DHS report(compiled under the Bush administration) targets such groups.
on March 29th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Timing is waaay too convenient.
I will believe none of it until I see proof, not charges.
on March 29th, 2010 at 3:40 pm
Yeah Jack, they’re on your side so naturally they must be innocent. Do you have any idea how many such incidents have been tried in the last 20 years? Do some research next time and you will see why this is par for the course for militia types. With all that violent, quasi-military rhetoric, why would you expect anything else? Either these guys are all cowards to the last man, who love to talk tough and never back it up, or you accept the more likely explanation that they create an atmosphere of violent rhetoric upon which some people will act.
on March 29th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Militia members should take a lesson from MLK and Ghandi- that is if one engages in civil disobedience, one must face the legal consequences of their actions. More to the point, if one wants to sabre-rattle and brag about overthrowing the US government and being a group of insurgents, one should not whine and cry when the government cracks down on them.
Millions of people in the US live relatively free lives, far better than most people in the world- in short, they see no need to stockpile guns and whine about the government, playing insurgents out in the brush. Nobody put a gun to these guys head and made them play GI Joe for real. If they think they are being persecuted they should be reminded that in most countries in this world, creating a paramilitary group is an act that will get you killed by the military in short order.
on March 29th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
Why do you care Ruslan?
Last you stated you’re not a U.S. resident or citizen.
In other words, it’s none of your business.
It will not surprise me when we find out it was instigated by an FBI “undercover” agent.
If these guys were so hard core how come no fight when arrested.
The whole story stinks.
on March 29th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
And all this time I thought a “hutaree” was just a cross between a hootenany and a jamboree. 8^).
This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Somebody is whipping these Religious Reich Wingnuts, Nativists, Birthers, Teabaggers and other Assorted Nuts into a foaming-mouthed frenzy.
I’m worried. I think these nutjobs are getting ready for another Civil War. They didn’t have any problems with Dubya doubling the federal debt, lying to start the wrong war, or setting up a torture gulag. But they’re up in arms about Obama giving Americans better healthcare.
These people are going off the deep end. It’s scary.
on March 29th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
Oh yeah, one other thing. Snorlax, you said they (I assume you mean Hutaree) didn’t have a problem with our former President waging a “wrong war”. Actually they did. They believed he was part of the NWO (just like they believe EVERY politician and government official is) and the war was an effort to both gain oil and install a practice police-state using the military. I know you’re maybe concerned about these groups, and perhaps all Americans should be at least aware of the situation, but throwing out random allegations and comments is not the way to handle it. These guys aren’t Republicans by any measure. Rather they see both main political parties as their enemies.
on March 29th, 2010 at 7:57 pm
Their forum is FILLED with threats of force. Weapons, rifles were seized from their homes. The DHS has every right to investigate and follow through on threats of terrorism. This form of “Christian” extremism is not a fabrication or a “left-wing” conspiracy. Numerous federal officers and countless other victims would have lost their lives. If their YouTube videos are still up, go watch those. These people are out of their minds with hate.
http://defense-update.com/news.....07_efp.htm
Here’s a little bit more on EFP’s– explosively formed projectiles. They are popular with insurgents in Iraq.
There was/is a section on their forum called “Weapons: The Ones That Kill People”. What do you think they wrote about in there? On top of that, they have endless footage of themselves running around the forest with huge guns and pretending they were in open apocalyptic combat. There was a violent spoof video–”American Jihad” on YouTube created by one of the men arrested. It has since been taken down/deleted.
How can anyone think these arrests are a “government conspiracy”?! These people are dangerously delusional.
on March 29th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
First off, I’m a US citizen so this is very much my business.
Cast your mind back to 1994. The lead up to Oklahoma was fraught with the same kinds of developments. This is the tip of the iceberg.
Why didn’t the Hutaree bunch put up a fight? Because, like most members of patriot groups they’re cowards in the face of real violence. They’re best at killing unarmed women and children.
The only consolation is that the vast majority of Americans understand that militia groups, like skinheads and the KKK, are lunatic fringe elements. Better yet, when these deluded militia types crawl out of their spider holes to do battle, they’ll find that their precious GOP and Tea Party allies will desert them.
It’s just a shame that the GOP won’t be responsible until we have another Oklahoma City. Still, remember what happened in 1994? McVeigh killed babies, and then the Republican anti-government types backed off and supported the feds’ crackdown.
on March 29th, 2010 at 8:22 pm
The Light needs to be shone on the Chelene Nightingale for governor 2010 California group!! They are fear and hate mongers, that when rebuffed by media organizations choose to Harass them with protests and telephone calls.. What next??? Chelene Nightingale has and is associated with the Minutemen radical hate group. She is looking for a Gov. position to spew her Crazy idealogy!! This is a person mentally unfit to hold any goverment position. Please beware and read up on her past.
on March 29th, 2010 at 9:29 pm
Yeah Snorlax,
They need to crack down on every single one of them! It’s the same rhetoric on Alex Jones website.
As for Michigan, that’s a hotbed for racism, fascism, extremism….you name it, they got it.
BTW, I read that the Southern Legal Resource Center is telling it’s members/followers to write in the Census 2010 forms that their race is “Confederated Southern Americans” on line 9 — it’s bigger than you can imagine, remember Napolitano made an announcement about extremists groups – the Republicans made her apologize and retract that statement.
Again, I think we need to strip most of these churches from their tax-exempt status, and most definitely crack down on the non-profits that are using their tax status as a front for these militia/anti-government/anti-tax groups/anti-minorities……
on March 29th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
This is scary. I think this is potentially more dangerous than the christian crusades.
How do people get this wacko? So they really think the goverment has this hidden agenda to take away all our freedoms. Next thing you know we’ll have to submit a detailed flight plan giving a minute by minute agenda on our vacation next week to Hilton Head.
I’m beginning to believe that maybe we should take away some of the personal freedoms that these wackos have just because they are so stupid.
A christian religious group wouldn’t revert to this type of perverted chit. It’s amazing how they run around with WWJD bracelets on their wrists and then do just the opposite thing Jesus would do.
And while we’re at it wouldn’t Jesus see to it that all people had free healthcare. Why the hell should anyone make a profit off someones misery(death). And wouldn’t we save more money if we practiced preventaive medicine before people get so deathly sick that we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep them alive so they can what, suffer more and die anyway. Maybe the conservatives healthcare plan isn’t so bad after all. If your’re going to get deathly sick die quickly with dignity without prolonged suffering. That way you can save the greedy bastards some money on their taxes and insurance premiums.
I thought it was funny that a right wing poll found that 48% of the primary physicians in America were going to quit their profession if healthcare passed. What the hell are they going to do? Get a real job like the rest of us.
I’m also thinking of taking up a collection to buy an airline ticket for Rush Limbaugh to fly to Costa Rica. Then I’m going to take the remainder of the money and retire. I’m sure I could get a boat load. Or use it for a night out in West Hollywood watching heterosexual women acting like lesbians. Isn’t it interesting how the anti gay party uses their money for entertainment. Don’t all you GOP contributors feel just a little duped.
Sorry, I could go on and on.
on March 29th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
Hutaree are just one in Michigan alone. Here are the rest (h/t to fellow Newshound Foggg):
Delta 5 Mobile Light Infantry Militia
East-Central Volunteer Militia of Michigan
Hutaree Militia
Jackson County Volunteer Militia
Lenawee County Free and Independent Militia
Michigan Militia
Michigan Militia Corps Wolverines 8th Division
Michigan Patriot Alliance (20 counties)
Northern Michigan Backyard Protection Militia
Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia (5 counties)
West Michigan Volunteer Militia
The reason Hutaree surrendered without a fight is because they’re all cowards in the end! So the story stinks, huh? The stench is coming from your end, Jack, the stench of terrorism and hate.
on March 29th, 2010 at 11:24 pm
the American right these days finds its inspiration in Barry Goldwater’s campaign speech from 1964, w/ its much quoted line “extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.” if they hate the federal government so much, they could always opt for secession by force of arms, which would provide the oppornity for our government to do some much needed house-cleaning.
on March 30th, 2010 at 1:18 am
Damn Jack, you have the WORST logical thought process I have ever seen. First of all, I am a US citizen, though not a resident. Second, maybe they didn’t resist arrest because guilty people know when they are busted, or because they didn’t want to get their asses kicked.
It’s important to remember that militia types, like most conservatives, are at heart cowards afraid of their own shadow(why else do they cling to their guns in an almost Freudian fashion). They talk tough but when the FBI comes knocking, they usually go peacefully.
on March 30th, 2010 at 2:01 am
When politicians wave flags (dont tread on me) at demonstraters, encouraging them, when Palin uses the term” reload” and uses crosshairs on a U.S. map, you dont need to wonder any longer who is stiring these crackpots up.With the Michigan freaks being right- wing christians and the Moscow freaks being muslim extremists, I ask myself two things. Are they not poured from the same mold and secondly, did our forfathers err by using the term “freedom of religion”. I personally believe we would be much better off if we had “freedom from religion”
on March 30th, 2010 at 3:02 am
I don’t remember any militia members getting busted, in such a extreme manner under the Bush administration. See what communism causes? I’m sure there will be other groups that who will be planning such activities for the future. Our red president and his ZOG enforcers can’t stop them all…
on March 30th, 2010 at 8:17 am
The SPLC’s website does a good job of listing many Christian, Conservative, US Constitutionally based unregulated militia and related groups.
They are all on their watch list and therefore all pose a threat to them is some regard.
This is unfortunate as the overwhelming majority of Christians and Christian, Conservative, US Constitutionally based unregulated militia and related groups love this country and want to defend it.
In my opinion, SPLC’s profiling and broad brush serve to alienate many potential supporters, and gives a glimpse into the somewhat paranoid view they have regarding Christians and Conservatives.
By design or not such a lumping together of a “class of people” will stir up the resentment pot, and may fan the flame of the very thing they fear.
A more sensitive and thoughtful approach on their part will garner more support, and be perceived as less bigoted by the vast majority of Christian Conservatives, and honorable unregulated militia members.
on March 30th, 2010 at 9:39 am
Jack is blind as a bat. I see plenty of charges filed against these un-AmeriKKKan traitors. Maybe WMD isn’t exactly on the list. But a wide range of violent intentions were, including attempting to murder a LEO and his entire police force/their attending families. The ‘Hutaree’ traitors claimed the name means ‘Christian Warrior’ but religious scholars could not point this out. I think the Obama adminstration have to take the same steps Clinton did, hence probably by deploying more agressive tactics, given to the grave seriousness of some of these seditious enemies.
on March 30th, 2010 at 10:04 am
jack, I think you went to the wrong website. try glenbeck.com things will make more sense to you there.
on March 30th, 2010 at 11:54 am
Jack:
You done puzzled me, man. In your first e-mail, you said the Feds needed to show that the Hutaree had used their weapons before they could be prosecuted.
So if we’d put the pieces together and found out that Osama Bin Laden and Terry Nichols had been planning their respective stupidities ahead of time, we’d have had to wait to stop them AFTER 9-11 and Oklahoma City anyway?
Help me out, here.
on March 30th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
A window into the frightening mindset of militia groups can be seen by reading the internet story “Battle of Jakes”. These people are much more organized than people realize and these gun rights extremists are very scary people…. I really pray the economy and debt don’t continue to get worse because I really fear that this is America’s future.
on March 30th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
These guys are nutjobs and cluless. Killing local cops to protest the Feds would be like killing a gas station attendant to protest big oil. Guys like these would shot at somebody on the toilet. They sound like the worst kind of cowards.
on March 30th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
For the real conspiracy theorist try this one out….all these people are on the CIA payroll. This was not a “capture” but a planned publicity stunt done in order to discredit Militias, create new gun control laws, and increase funding of Homeland Security and domestic policing. Why else would they be so vocal in announcing their intentions all over the internet?
on March 30th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Willie, you have a short memory apparently. Had you checked, you would have seen that several militia and extremist group members were arrested under the Bush regime, including Chester Doles, who sounds like a buddy of yours. It was also under the Bush administration that the infamous DHS memo which pissed off so many conservatives was compiled- it was released after Obama was inaugurated. Of course during the Bush administration, there was a marked decline of militia activity, so many of these cases didn’t garner so much attention. Next time do some research before posting such nonsense.
Ken, I don’t remember anyone ASKING these militia people to defend the country, and I’ve yet to see a single example of modern militias defending ANYONE’s civil rights. Last time I checked, the US had a standing military for that purpose. It’s pretty good at invading other countries so I’m sure it can handle defense of the homeland.
on March 30th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
“So if we’d put the pieces together and found out that Osama Bin Laden and Terry Nichols had been planning their respective stupidities ahead of time, we’d have had to wait to stop them AFTER 9-11 and Oklahoma City anyway?”
That is exactly what was done. The 9-11 crew was known to the FBI for a long time before 9-11 and McVeigh and crew were working with an FBI informant. For heavens sakes the FBI knew the 9-11 guys were taking flight lessons with no interest in learning how to land. That’s a pretty big red flag guys. If they were so worried about protection of lives maybe they should have just arrested McVeigh and the 9-11 crew when they already had enough
evidence to convict them of certain crimes?
Ruslan, I believe you have misrepresented yourself. In past posts you had stated where you lived which was not the U.S. You have also made other comments that would lead one to believe you are not a U.S. citizen.
It is even worse than I thought. An open proponent of communism and a citizen. Since communists are a direct threat to constitutional government you are just as bad or worse than any of these militia guys.
It will turn out to be some not so smart guys making dumb comments around an informant that was stoking them on.
With all these great plans and bombs and whatnot there should be a lot of physical evidence. Where is it?
Ohhh, I know, they owned GUNS! Because everyone who owns guns is a domestic terrorist according to Napolitano.
Congrats, you just figured out a way to lock up more than 80 million Americans.
It is way too convenient, the timing is too good and these guys seem not so smart. Perfect target to make a huge splash and paint all kinds of folks as “terrorists.” Great excuse to remove more of our liberties and fund more government nonsense.
Skinnyminny, we can agree on one thing, maybe.
I do not believe in tax exempt status for anyone as they all still use the same resources as anyone else. But it would have to be across the board, no exemptions for “charities” advocacy groups, churches, political etc.
on March 30th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
“Ruslan, I believe you have misrepresented yourself. In past posts you had stated where you lived which was not the U.S. You have also made other comments that would lead one to believe you are not a U.S. citizen.”
I think my level of English clearly suggests that it is my native language. That would suggest citizenship. I’m not responsible for your incorrect conclusions. You’ve shown your reasoning skills are sub par in the past.
“It is even worse than I thought. An open proponent of communism and a citizen. Since communists are a direct threat to constitutional government you are just as bad or worse than any of these militia guys.”
I never stockpiled weapons and challenged the government.
“It will turn out to be some not so smart guys making dumb comments around an informant that was stoking them on.
With all these great plans and bombs and whatnot there should be a lot of physical evidence. Where is it?”
An informant may indeed have been used but give the trial some time to play out.
“Ohhh, I know, they owned GUNS! Because everyone who owns guns is a domestic terrorist according to Napolitano.
Congrats, you just figured out a way to lock up more than 80 million Americans.”
Nice strawman.
“It is way too convenient, the timing is too good and these guys seem not so smart. Perfect target to make a huge splash and paint all kinds of folks as “terrorists.” Great excuse to remove more of our liberties and fund more government nonsense.”
Lot’s of arrests throughout history are just “too convenient” from someone’s perspective. You’re starting to sound like a 9-11 truther.
on March 30th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Throughout my life I have known reactionary fundamentalists who see modernity quickly encroaching on their beliefs. I have seen the same people consumed by propaganda and falsified convictions manufactured and disseminated by cable ‘news’ and ‘church’ groups. My first reaction was inevitably anger, a pseudo-righteous secular-humanist rage at their biblical literalism, war/gun obsession and (often subtle) racism.
In retrospect I wish I could have had a more productive dialogue with these individuals, identifying common goals (they do exist!) and emphasizing shared humanity rather than perpetuating this dialectic of hatred and intolerance. Perhaps I (we) should work to humanize each and every member of society and peaceably dismantle the apparatus of financial and social inequality, hopefully soothing the tempers of extremism.
Yet, some people can’t be changed. I fear the kind of intense hatred I have myself known toward bigots and killers and demagogues; and on the American right that kind of hate and rage is embodied in White Minority politics, armed by supposed friends of the constitution, and encouraged by radical elites. And while these individuals may be crazy (in my definition,) they are often far from stupid; vigilance, non-violent activism, and an unwavering opposition to violence/racism/bigotry are tools we should all work to employ in our everyday lives.
Whew. I needed that.
Peace, ya’ll
Peace, y
on March 30th, 2010 at 3:59 pm
“I don’t remember anyone ASKING these militia people to defend the country”
That’s a rather sad statement to read, as I can name you one very prominent group, they were the founding fathers, those men who fought the struggle that made this country free, and they felt so strongly on the issue that, after liberating the Nation, they then wrote a constitution that explicitly stated “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”.
Unfortunately modern hate groups like the SPLC like to spin things in a different way, in an attempt to whip up fear, and paranoia, and to smear any dissenting voices in this country.
Do “our” research?
You mean the list of 75 alleged plots between 1995 and 2009?
With thousands of “Patriot” groups, Nationwide, 75 allegations, over a period of 14 years is a remarkably low figure, isn’t it?
I mean, pound for pound, if we scaled up that population, and their crime rate, to the size of a city, and looked at it in comparison to other cities, we’d see that it would be the equivalent of around 15% of the crime rate of a particularly violent city, such as Detroit, and that’s assuming each of these “conspiracies” were real, and not just the invention of certain hate groups, with their political agendas.
You seem to avoid mentioning these facts though.
Now I’ve not knowingly ever had anything to do with these guys, and I’ve never knowingly associated with them, so I don’t know if they are good guys, or bad guys, I don’t know if they are innocents, persecuted by the state, or crazies, hell bent on creating mayhem, in our Nation, and I probably never will know the truth.
And I will probably never know that truth because hate groups like the SPLC are dishonest, and resort to smearing, and attacking people, at the drop of a hat.
By creating shadowy enemies, within the political opposition in America, it allows certain people to silence dissenting voices, and legitimate opposition, it allows them to frighten people, and to make them afraid to even think what the government deems to be incorrect thoughts (read the results of this survey http://www.wnd.com/index.php?f.....eId=132537 ), and it allows people to paint a false image of America, which helps them to justify their draconian, and otherwise unpalatable policies.
In the case of people like the SPLC it also allows them to whip up paranoia, and stir up racial tensions, and violence, to raise a few dollars more.
America will never truly be free until the hate groups, like the SPLC, peddling their lies, become nothing more than a footnote in history.
on March 30th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
“I think my level of English clearly suggests that it is my native language.”
Not at all. I have lived overseas, Germany for 3 years, Italy and UK for one, Belgium for one.
I have conversed with plenty of non-native speakers that have as good a grasp of the language.
Heck, most of the Germans speak and write English better than plenty of Americans.
My software support people are all Russian and do as well.
Your command of the language doesn’t really signify anything.
Many of your references and statements would lead a reasonable person to believe you are not a U.S. citizen.
It’s not at all uncommon to find a foreigner with a good command of English.
“You’ve shown your reasoning skills are sub par in the past.”
Believe what you will. My success in life says otherwise.
Companies don’t pay me their hard earned money for sub-par.
“I never stockpiled weapons and challenged the government.”
Maybe not, but Communism is an enemy of constitutional government and you have written here that you are a Communist, just as bad.
“Lot’s of arrests throughout history are just “too convenient” from someone’s perspective. You’re starting to sound like a 9-11 truther.”
No, you have me confused with Beholder.
If the 9-11 folks can ever show me enough hard evidence to prove their claims we’ll cross that bridge.
To date none of them has been able to.
However, you seem to forget the FBI’s dirty hands in much of this that goes back decades. Remember COINTELPRO, the infiltration of the Libertarians in the 70′s, the FBI guys McVeigh was hanging out with? How about the FBI guys stoking that plot in NY?
It would not be beneath the FBI or our government to use such informants and dumb guys as fodder for their agenda.
It would not be beneath them to stoke them up and get them to commit actions that they could then prosecute.
Some of them may not have pursued any actual action except for FBI agents stoking them.
You know what is really sub-par? Communism and socialism. They GUARANTEE equal misery for all.
on March 30th, 2010 at 5:03 pm
Oh, quick one about this jewel:
“I never stockpiled weapons…”
Are you saying stockpiling is illegal? Or are you saying it should be a crime?
It is not as of today.
Define stockpiling for us.
I have a gut feeling that your definition would probably include most of the folks in my county.
on March 30th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
Apparently, they were victims of “home schooling”.
I find it so fascinating that gun nuts want the freedom to carry their firearms wherever they go and insist that it is perfectly safe. But, their rhetoric often belies a different agenda; which is to undermine civil society and in this case kill law enforcement officials. On the Hutaree website there is a section called “Weapons” and underneath it says, “the things you kill with”. That doesn’t sound very safe to me.
on March 30th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
What an attractive bunch – hahaha, just kidding!
For anyone thinking this is a joke, I don’t think so! In fact, one of the founders of a militia in Michigan is now in Nikiski. Mr. Norm Olson was featured in many news articles. Mr. Olson was also a member of AIP, actually. All you have to do is google, “Kenai rally a call to resist government tyranny–with guns if necessary.” These people are very dangerous! Period!!!!
I think we do need gun-control laws to be strengthened and enforced! I think the book “Turner Diaries” should be banned! Unfortunately, this book is sold at gun shows, online, and at rallies/protests…anyone who could be so influenced by a book, is definitely psychotic! Permits for rallies/protests should be denied for the entire month of April – and this should be permanent law! Gun shows should be stopped, as these shows recruits prospective members. Crimes should be treated as crimes, and give all suspects the same amount of time – instead of using racial/status as factors for sentencing.
on March 30th, 2010 at 9:46 pm
you are mis-characterizing militia groups as hate groups and Id like to know why? The patriot movement is not ANTI-GOVERNMENT. Its pro-government. The entire message they preach is adherance to the countitution and bill of rights. States rights, congressional oversight, separation of powers etc. How is that anit-government. They are anti-corruption in government. The sheer fact that you are trying to mischaracterize them makes America suspicious of your motives. How are these groups hate groups? Who exactally do they hate? As far as I can tell these groups are quick to point out that the bankers behind the economic terrorism are not Jewish. They are of all races creeds and colors. So I am confiused
on March 30th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
Listen, the militia is mentioned in the U.S Constitution because we had no standing army back then. Now we have one but its federal. The states have the reserve but again, its federal. The militia was created as the states protection against federal enchroachment. Just like nullification and succession. Today liberals would like everyone to believe that milita, nullification and succession are racial terms. These terms have nothing to do with race at all. They were the states defense against federal enchroachment and still are. The states created the federal gov but they recognised the ability of the gov to become tyranical. These safeguards were built into the constitution for your protection. Liberals somehow think everyone who doesnt want to be raped by government is racist. This is a diversion and a disgrace. To use the plight of black Americans to further your BIG GOVERNMENT AGENDA is sick. Black folks dont need higher taxes and less freedom. They need to be left alone to grow and become prosperous. If the gov would stop assulting them AT EVERY TURN THEY WOULDNT NEED WELFARE. The CIA has flooded their communities w drugs, paid women to keep men out of the home and flooded their communities w/ guns in order to cause problems. They attack the foundation of the community -the black family. If you want to stop hate then stop providing cover for government’s silent war against minorities. Black folks can read now see, they dont need you telling them how to think or what to think. They see you liberals who come bearing gifts as nothing but Trojans.
on March 30th, 2010 at 10:13 pm
Yes,there were left-wing militias.They were intelligent,and courageous.The SLA were killed in a firefight in Los Angeles.They hid out for two years two blocks from FBI headquarters if SF
on March 30th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
the excuse that the militant right offers for its illegal activity to the effect that it wants to protect the country from communism, doesn’t hold water. a communist president and congress could be elected constitutionally, as the U.S. Constitution does not preclude communists from running for or holding public office. the prominent socialist Eugene Debs ran for the presidency of the U.S. in five elections beginning in 1900, without the slightest imputation of illegality in any of them.
furthermore, the takings clause of the U.S. Constitution, which has been the basis for a fair amount of jurisprudence from the U.S. Supreme Court, enables the U.S. government to confiscate private property as long it pays fair compensation to the owner. the Constitution is easily accessible on the WWW to anyone who wishes to read it.
on March 30th, 2010 at 11:12 pm
The military arm of the Teabagger movement takes a hit.
on March 31st, 2010 at 7:42 am
You know, besides that, I haven’t read any part of MULTIPLE stories about these kooks who got arrested that states which party the vote for, or IF they even vote. Where is your proof? or are you in the business of spreading hate along with lies?…..put up or shut up.
on March 31st, 2010 at 7:43 am
I will not wait around to see “if” my comments make it past your “moderator” I have a feeling this organization does not tolerate truth well.
on March 31st, 2010 at 8:01 am
Ok Jack, I am a US citizen, born and raised here, and I care. Ruslan is right. If these guys were black, or “progressives” you’d be all with the accusations and not asking for any “proof”. Just because they fit your radical anti-government views, they are innocent until proven guilty. Well, aren’t we lucky that we live in a democracy where that is the case, oh, I mean, except if you are Muslim and carted off to Guantanamo where you can be imprisoned and tortured without actually being accused of anything. I mean, being Muslim is a crime, isn’t it?
on March 31st, 2010 at 8:35 am
Kirk Lyons, well-known hate monger, has youtube video discussing the 2010 Census. Specifically he states that in answering ques. #9, I believe, that Southern Americans (No, not people from So. America whom he hates as they are not WASPS) answer by marking the “other” box and writing in “Confederate Southern American.” When learning of this I didn’t know whether I should fume or begin laughing as the notion struck me as funny, like some sort of Monty Python skit. I thought the guy can’t be serious. Apparently he is. And the notion remains, well, stupid. This, even though his bigotry knows no bounds.
on March 31st, 2010 at 8:42 am
These militias are a menace. They may be allowed to exist constitutionally, and therefore should not be anhilated. But they should be regulated up to the wazoo, as the Constitution permits. Make a permit to join one and be on a national registry. We need a clear regulatory superstructure without any ambiguity over what constitutes a militia. No free wheeling willy nilly anti-American gun toting belly bucking beer fests.
on March 31st, 2010 at 9:03 am
Jack, why are you so obsessed w. Ruslan’s citizenship? Don’t you have other things to do or to obsess about? Ruslan is not a communist. Just because he is not a jack-booted thug, which you would prefer, does not give you the right to attack him as some sort of subversive. Sheesh.
Glenn Beck is sort of dangerous. He incites ignorant and unsophisticated people to violence with his inflammatory bombast. Prior to FOX, which is neither fair nor balanced, he was on HLN. I found him irritating and dumb and, well, funny, when he was supposedly being angry. He could really turn on those waterworks. I found him hilarious. I’m sorry; he brought it on himself. I suspect he will soon head an angry mob of peasants armed w. pitchforks, tar and feathers who will storm Congress and lynch anyone to the left of Mussolini.
Then again, that’s what you would expect from the network that hired that creepy Geraldo Rivera.
on March 31st, 2010 at 9:07 am
Why would anyone want to stockpile weapons? This would be done with the clear intention of using them in a terroristic fashion. They ain’t goin’ deer huntin’ folks. People huntin’ maybe.
on March 31st, 2010 at 10:23 am
Danny Mathews I don’t know which “America’ you speak of, or let alone what planet you’re from. But here in the United States, the American people are already ‘free’. FYI, we have more Freedoms than any country on this planet. And since we are a nation of laws, our Freedoms doesn’t grant one to commit acts of wanton evil upon another fellow citizen, much less–a law enforcement official who is responsible for enforcing laws. Our Freedoms does not permit you and folks like you (or anyone else) to commit acts of domestic terrorism. Simply put it this way–if you were in my country(USA) and you have a problem obeying laws and order. You can always pack up and get your ass out of here, out of my country. We can use one less whiner/cry baby among us. Maybe your not the sort to be folllowing laws, order and civility(central governship)??? Then hatermonger, you must be really uncivilized to begin with. But hey there’s always Somalia(a nation without law & order or government). Or perhaps, if you are White, maybe you want to go to Russia where their nationhood is about to collaspe. That way you don’t have to worry about–Governments.
on March 31st, 2010 at 11:52 am
@ usaindependent
“They see you liberals who come bearing gifts as nothing but Trojans.”
Literature-nerd part speaking: So… wait, what?. To the Federal government: Liberals= Trojans; those bearing gifts= liberals= Trojans. But, in the Iliad, the warning was about Greeks bearing gifts, i.e. the Trojan Horse. So who’s tricking who? Is the Federal government the Greeks who apparently not bearing gifts, but liberals bear gifts to the Greeks and get…
*Head Explodes*
on March 31st, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Rick:
Sorry, no. The FBI deal with the NY Muslim plot against Fort Dix was quite similar. Probably nothing would have happened except for the FBI agent stoking them on.
You notice no LEO is releasing any information about these “explosives” and “WMD’s.”
If they had them, where are they? They had no problem saying they had guns (oooh scary guns) but won’t say a word about all these bombs.
mountaingirl08:
“Ruslan is not a communist.”
Wrong. Ruslan has posted here that he is a Communist.
That is from his own mouth. He made the claim on this blog in another story. If he doesn’t want to be identified as a Communist he should not claim that he is one.
“Why would anyone want to stockpile weapons? This would be done with the clear intention of using them in a terroristic fashion. They ain’t goin’ deer huntin’ folks. People huntin’ maybe.”
Really, what is your definition of stockpile. I probably qualify. I have killed quite a few people, during my military service in the desert. I have also killed one in a self-defense case when attacked by an armed attacker in GA.
However I have never harmed anyone in an unlawful fashion.
I have quite an extensive firearm collection.
So what?
Your idea of “stockpile” would probably include all my neighbors in my county, as most folks here own at least 5 to 10 firearms, many of us way more.
Skinnyminny:
“I think we do need gun-control laws to be strengthened and enforced! I think the book “Turner Diaries” should be banned! Unfortunately, this book is sold at gun shows, online, and at rallies/protests…anyone who could be so influenced by a book, is definitely psychotic! Permits for rallies/protests should be denied for the entire month of April – and this should be permanent law! Gun shows should be stopped, as these shows recruits prospective members.”
So now you are a book banner and wish to outlaw private peaceful assembly?
Be careful what you wish for.
Maybe we could also ban lefty organizations from meeting too?
If any books should be banned it would be the lunatic writings of folks like Karl Marx.
However I am not a book banner.
on March 31st, 2010 at 12:14 pm
The Huttaree’s motive is almost identical to that of Charlie Manson and his family. Manson himself did not participate in the murders of Sharon Tate and the others, so the prosecuter, Vincent Buglosia had to unearth the motive that connected Manson to the crimes. The Manson family took a lot of drugs which helped fuel their fantasy that was based very loosly on Bible prophesy. They believed their attacks would be blamed on the blacks and instigate a race war in the USA that would actually be armageddon as predicted in the bible. After everybody killed each other off the Mansonites would come out of hiding in the desert and take over.
Now we have we have politicians fanning the flames of mass hysteria by claiming the passing of the health care bill is armageddon. Do they have any idea of the danger in that?
on March 31st, 2010 at 12:23 pm
We need to distinguish between the act of collecting firearms and the act of willfully and manifestly expressing animus against the government.
I think ownership of firearms is about as all-American as you can get. The Constitutional guarantee does not limit the states and municipalities to have their own ordnances and penalties, so I also support local right to ban or restrict ownership and carry.
I also think our handgun violence is off the charts (and there are some interesting studies exploring how our handgun violence is an Anglo Saxon legacy), totally unacceptable for an advanced country, and that there are clearly excesses on both sides of debate over constitutionality of firearms.
But when you clearly have a group, whose stated purpose is to destabilize the government, and whose level of animus is such that on a national scale we are seeing more and more incidents of menace, then it is time to intervene in the best interests of the people. The people have a right to protest government. They also have the right not to have their government leaders or prominent individuals threatened and harassed, or to live in fear of what amounts to modern day treason.
on March 31st, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Mountaingirl I think Ruslan is a communist, but that’s ok.
on March 31st, 2010 at 12:32 pm
“If the 9-11 folks can ever show me enough hard evidence to prove their claims we’ll cross that bridge.”
——
What claims?
I pointed out that shoot down authorization was given — which is an objective fact — and merely questioned whether or not that authorization was used to bring down Flight 93 before it hit the White House.
You see, Jack, you don’t like to have your ideas challenged. So you deploy an ad hominem. You appeal to scorn. You appeal to what is known. You generalize. But you very rarely use logic.
on March 31st, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Am I as a citizen not entitled to ask a question without being considered an extremist?
on March 31st, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Mr. Wolf said it all….so there is not too much to add….
Talking about harming LEO’s is akin to shooting yourself in the foot with a scoped rifle – you can’t miss!
Stupid? You betcha’ !
But what’s more rhetoric of that type turns off a sizable amount of people who would be neutral to certain discussion points (Constitutional infringement, etc)
Likely as not – just like classic WN – Militias better realize that they have a certain percentage of their members who are either informers, paid LE, or screaming idiots looking for a deal when they get arrested for doing stupid stuff.
There will NOT be any more OK City’s ! Period.
on March 31st, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Jack, these people have been stockpiling weapons, showing them off, and playing army on their land. As I said before, you pull that kind of nonsense in most countries, and they send in the army. These guys challenge the government, then they whine when the government cracks down on the few who either actually do something illegal(like the idiot who was caught with the M203 grenade launcher), or are at least dumb enough to fantasize in front of some informant.
Honestly, you don’t like the government, move to Somalia and stop whining. And all your idiotic arguments about me supposedly not being a citizen are just pathetic. If you say I wrote something on here that suggests I am not a citizen, then you go ahead and dig it up, and post it.
on March 31st, 2010 at 2:54 pm
Looks like radio host Chris Baker is now defending Hutaree:
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201003310021
on March 31st, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Also, Sandra Bullock’s husband, in addition to being a philanderer like Tiger Woods, appears to enjoy giving Nazi salutes on camera. I’m not sure if he actually is a Nazi sympathizer, or if he just thinks Nazis are “funny”, but the photo was definitely in VERY poor taste:
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20355954,00.html
on March 31st, 2010 at 3:02 pm
Apparently one of the members of Hutaree (Tina Stone) was angry at President Obama because of a false Internet rumor that claimed the president wanted to help Hamas settle in the U.S. Just goes to show you how these Internet smears are anything but harmless…
http://www.freep.com/article/2.....r-at-Obama
on March 31st, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Kris Sickles, another member of Hutaree, apparently
“was charged in 2004 with disseminating pornographic materials to juveniles.”
In addition, he made one video titled “American Jihad”, and another film in which he portrays a serial killer who kills a little boy by smashing him against a tree. This guy is deeply disturbed.
http://michiganmessenger.com/3.....ial-killer
on March 31st, 2010 at 4:03 pm
Beholder:
“The Constitutional guarantee does not limit the states and municipalities to have their own ordnances and penalties, so I also support local right to ban or restrict ownership and carry.”
Not so fast, that may be SOME folks interpretation but the McDonald v Chicago case has been argued and we are waiting for the decision.
There is a very good chance what you wrote will no longer
apply in June or whenever the ruling is published.
Local ownership bans may be found to be unconstitutional, as they should be. “…shall not be infringed.”
There is no reason our other civil rights should be incorporated and not this one. That you would support local bans that strip civil rights is silly. How about we do that with the first? How about we let locals restrict freedom of speech?
Don’t think you would appreciate that much.
We have a few months to wait yet.
Also, the part about 9-11 was directed at another poster that was saying they thought I sounded like a 9-11 truther type. I am not and have not posted anything to support the 9-11 types.
It was from Ruslan, here are his words:
“Lot’s of arrests throughout history are just “too convenient” from someone’s perspective. You’re starting to sound like a 9-11 truther.”
I am not one to have gone on about 9-11. You have on occasion here and if any of us is a 9-11 truther type it is certainly not I.
Ruslan:
“If you say I wrote something on here that suggests I am not a citizen, then you go ahead and dig it up, and post it.”
Really not worth the time to dig through all of these old blogs. A lot of what you wrote gave that impression as there are not a lot of U.S. citizens that openly claim to be communists that live in Russia or Eastern Europe, I forget exactly where you said you resided.
So if you claim you are a citizen, fine. You did claim on these blogs that you were a communist, no?
If it was someone else posting using your moniker then say so.
As communism is the enemy of free people and seeks to replace constitutional government with a gulag, it’s supporters are enemies of the U.S., no different than any other “domestic terrorist.”
And we still have this “stockpiling” issue?
What do you define as stockpiling?
How is “stockpiling” any different than collecting?
The whole “stockpiling” term is a great term for the left and gun control freaks to paint lots of people as somehow shady or criminal.
Is my collection a “stockpile?”
Is it by number of weapons, or political beliefs?
Does my gun room and vault qualify?
The term “stockpiling” is just used to paint guns as “bad.” and more than one of them as “real bad.”
In my county you would be hard pressed to find a household with less than 5 or 10 firearms. If they suddenly decide to go criminal, were they “stockpiling?”
on March 31st, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Oh good grief Beholder. Communism in the West is nearly extinct. The term doesn’t do or mean squat nowdays. This isn’t the ’50′s or ’60′s. Calling someone a communist is akin to calling them a trilobite. The term is that dated.
But so is Glenn Beck. He is still beating the drum of McCarthyism. He’s still needing some sort of tranquilizer and he’s still unintentionally funny, with all his pathos and harumphing and weeping on cue and other stuff like that.
I do know that if I had a bunch of guns and hung around the likes of the Hutaree militia then it’s a sure thing the only hunting I would do would be of people.
on March 31st, 2010 at 5:46 pm
“Communism in the West is nearly extinct.”
I wish it were so. Communism is alive and well.
on March 31st, 2010 at 6:42 pm
The militia are not the only people engaging in hate here:
some examples:
“They need to *crack down* on every single one of them! It’s the same rhetoric on Alex Jones website.
As for Michigan, that’s a hotbed for racism, fascism, extremism….you name it, they got it.”
(Yeah better put the millions of people who listen to ALex Jones and millions in Michigan in some kind of camp or something can’t have “them” spooking around our good country now can we?)
“if they hate the federal government so much, they could always opt for secession by force of arms, which would *provide the oppornity for our government to do some much needed house-cleaning.*
(Advocate genocide much?)
“Obama adminstration have to take the same steps Clinton did, hence probably by deploying more agressive tactics, given to the grave seriousness of some of these *seditious enemies.”*
(Sounds like the rhetoric used during the Palmer raids during the red scare or something from McCarthyism. Sedition, really?)
“I think the book “Turner Diaries” should be banned! ”
(Censorship is great how “liberal” and tolerant and non hateful of you)
“But they should be regulated up to the wazoo, as the Constitution permits. Make a permit to join one and be on a national registry. We need a clear regulatory superstructure without any ambiguity over what constitutes a militia. No free wheeling willy nilly anti-American gun toting belly bucking beer fests.”
(Maybe we can tattoo numbers on their arms while we are at it? For people who deny there is no New World Order why does that sound like something that the militia people would say might happen under a “crackdown” as advocated by one here above? Thanks for feeding the most paranoid fantasies of the most unhinged among the militia members, good stuff.)
“The Huttaree’s motive is almost identical to that of Charlie Manson and his family.”
(Quick be afraid, fear, fear, give up your rights because of fear, it’s not just for the Bush monsters anymore.)
“Honestly, you don’t like the government, move to Somalia and stop whining.”
(America luv it or leave it, it’s not just for right wingers anymore. :( )
What’s sad is I am leftist atheist who has been arrested fro direct action environmental activism ie. just about the opposite of a militia member. But just because I disagree with people doesn’t mean I want to see them hated and slandered in the MSM or subjected to police busts like wre done against Black Panthers and Earth First! Unlike many here I think racist hate, homophobia *and* hatred of poor rural people I have seen are all wrong. All of the above quotes have nothing “liberal” about them at all but rather smack of authoritarian intolerance and demonization of the rural poor using crude stereotypes, IMO, Shame!
on March 31st, 2010 at 7:46 pm
I’d like to thank the people and supporters of S.P.L.C. for all their efforts. Thats one Great Outfit. Sincerly,Thank You ALL.
on March 31st, 2010 at 7:59 pm
“Hootenanny!”
“Jamboree!”
“Hootenanny!!!”
“Jamboree!!!”
(fistfight ensues)
And that’s how they finally settled on “Hutaree”.
on March 31st, 2010 at 8:02 pm
I’m not messin with communism, I just said it’s ok. So what, I lean toward socialism. Big deal.
on March 31st, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Karl Marx, who earned a doctorate of philosophy, was far better educated than Jack has been, which isn’t surprising in light of the contempt with which the American Right regards the teaching of evolution in public schools. I wonder what institution granted Jack his doctoral degree.
the Communist Party of China claims a membership of roughly 70 million members; you know, the ruling party of the People’s Republic of China that holds more U.S. Treasury notes than any other single entity in the world. perhaps, you’ve heard of this phenomenon.
on April 1st, 2010 at 12:47 am
“Really not worth the time to dig through all of these old blogs. A lot of what you wrote gave that impression as there are not a lot of U.S. citizens that openly claim to be communists that live in Russia or Eastern Europe, I forget exactly where you said you resided.”
That’s it boy, backpedal! ALL BACK FULL! Yes, yes, and US citizens can’t live abroad right?
“So if you claim you are a citizen, fine. You did claim on these blogs that you were a communist, no?
If it was someone else posting using your moniker then say so.”
Many US citizens are, and were, Communists.
“As communism is the enemy of free people and seeks to replace constitutional government with a gulag, it’s supporters are enemies of the U.S., no different than any other “domestic terrorist.””
You do realize that socialist countries had constitutions? Most countries in the world have constitutions or certain laws and statutes which perform the same functions. The US is not unique in this respect. And when did the US constitution authorize you to interpret it? Last time I checked there’s this thing called the Supreme Court.
“And we still have this “stockpiling” issue?
What do you define as stockpiling?
How is “stockpiling” any different than collecting?”
For one thing, some of the weapons may have been illegal, for example, they could have been in possession of select-fire weapons without a class III license. This will come out at trial. Second, these people openly challenge the government and could constitute a potential armed insurgent group. As the government does and has ignored dozens of these groups(only keeping tabs on them) for several decades, most militia supporters should consider themselves lucky.
“The whole “stockpiling” term is a great term for the left and gun control freaks to paint lots of people as somehow shady or criminal.
Is my collection a “stockpile?”
Is it by number of weapons, or political beliefs?
Does my gun room and vault qualify?
The term “stockpiling” is just used to paint guns as “bad.” and more than one of them as “real bad.”
In my county you would be hard pressed to find a household with less than 5 or 10 firearms. If they suddenly decide to go criminal, were they “stockpiling?”
Do you engage in paramilitary training with those weapons and openly state that you intend to use them against government forces?
Again, militia types are basically overgrown children playing soldier. They want to play insurgent, but they get upset when faced with the consequences of their actions.
on April 1st, 2010 at 6:12 am
yeah we only know the gov´t version and they have lied in the past.
It is the duty of every patriot to protect his country from the gov´t—–Thomas Paine———–AGE AND REASON
on April 1st, 2010 at 8:34 am
Rogers, I’m inclined to agree with the double standard of cowardly liberals who started whining about “flagrant disrespect shown toward the president” from the tea party crowd. I’ve seen some of these two-faced types even go so far as say that they shouldn’t be criticizing the president in a time of war- and no, they clearly weren’t being ironic. It’s one thing to condemn racism in right-wing rhetoric, it’s another to engage in the same kind of rhetoric that the right-wingers were guilty of during Bush’s tenure.
on April 1st, 2010 at 11:45 am
Ruslan:
“That’s it boy, backpedal! ALL BACK FULL! Yes, yes, and US citizens can’t live abroad right?”
A lot of folks would assume that someone living where you live, posting what you post, sounding like Karl Marx jr. might possibly be a citizen there.
Either way fine, it’s sad that you would count yourself with the enemy.
“You do realize that socialist countries had constitutions?”
A “constitution” shoved down your throat by thugs is not the same thing as a constitution created by the consent of the governed. They are NOT the same thing.
“And when did the US constitution authorize you to interpret it?”
The constitution was written as such by our founders. This modern idea that somehow no one can read it and find the truth therein without being on the Supreme Court is absurd.
It was written in plain language for a reason. It was so that ALL could read and understand the government and laws they were consenting to.
“For one thing, some of the weapons may have been illegal, for example, they could have been in possession of select-fire weapons without a class III license.”
Ruslan, there is no such thing as a class III license for ownership of automatic weapons in the U.S. The various categories of class III licenses are for manufacturing, import/export, dealerships and various other items. To the contrary, it is a felony to use a class III license as an avenue to personal ownership.
The only thing a US citizen needs to own such weapons is a Form 4 with its paid tax stamp. These are not “licenses,”
they don’t exist. They are a tax on ownership and are per weapon. A Form 4 documents taxes paid on a single weapon by serial number, it does not allow you to purchase other NFA weapons, only to legally own that one weapon. (National Firearms Act) The paperwork and stupidity that accompanies them are unconstitutional controls and never should have been passed, no thanks to Reagan, but they are not licenses.
I have plenty of NFA weapons in my collection and have never had nor will never have a “license” for them. What each one DOES have is an ATF form 4 with a $200 tax stamp per NFA.
All my weapons are legally owned per NFA.
The simple fact is that there is no such illegal act as “stockpiling.” It does not matter if one owns 1 AR-15 or 5000. It’s just a scare word. The media loves to use it along with other terms to paint gun owners and guns as “bad.”
Kind of the same way they call semi-automatic weapons automatic “assault rifles” and “assault weapons” and describe pistols as “automatic.”
As if all of these were automatic weapons.
“Do you engage in paramilitary training with those weapons and openly state that you intend to use them against government forces?”
I really do not need any “paramilitary training” as I was trained by the U.S. Army and unless there is a war or societal breakdown on our soil I am a little too old to be running around the woods.
So it comes down again to what is “stockpiling?”
Nothing. It is not an illegal act.
You can use those weapons to commit a crime but the ownership of large quantities is not a crime.
You will notice nowhere are they charging them with “stockpiling.”
It is a non-issue but used as a scare word.
Kind of like the Brady campaign in their infamous wisdom warning us all about “ceramic” guns that don’t exist (the fools saw them in a movie and thought they were real) and armor piercing bullets from the F.N. 5.7 that even the ATF says are not armor piercing. And believe me, the ATF is not the gun owners friend and if they could possibly ban whatever it was they would.
on April 1st, 2010 at 11:45 am
I’ve been reading more articles about this militia: http://www.gossip-boy.com/Hutaree_Militia.html
Defenders of the Constitution? Or their interpretation of it? The fact that they go out of their way to identify themselves as a “Christian” militia speaks volumes. How would they interpret the 1st Amendment, particularly on religion? What about the 14th? Roe v. Wade? Thanks but when I’m in the States, I’ll ask the ACLU for help if my Constitutional rights are violated.
on April 1st, 2010 at 12:34 pm
Thanks but when I’m in the States, I’ll ask the ACLU for help if my Constitutional rights are violated.
Yep, birds of a feather …
on April 1st, 2010 at 12:35 pm
The amount of hate expressed on this “anti hate” group is frankly shocking to me. I think you also fail to realize who the real enemy is, hint many militia members may hold pernicious beliefs I strongly disagree with, but it is the U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan that has murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people of color callously written off as “collateral damage” under both Republican and Democratic leadership. Wouldn’t you be better served to address the actual killers of people of color rather than wasting your outrage on small timers accused of hypothetical crimes? Of course to do so would require you to question your unquestioned loyalty to all government narratives which is perhaps more than you can handle? That is why I am a radical leftist and not an SPLC supporting liberal. You guys are close but don’t quite get it IMO.
on April 1st, 2010 at 12:58 pm
“A lot of folks would assume that someone living where you live, posting what you post, sounding like Karl Marx jr. might possibly be a citizen there.”
And those folks would have poor reasoning ability- in other words, like you.
“A “constitution” shoved down your throat by thugs is not the same thing as a constitution created by the consent of the governed. They are NOT the same thing.”
Oh I must have missed that part in American history where the Constitution was ratified via a popular referendum, which of COURSE would have included the votes of African Americans and women…right?
“The constitution was written as such by our founders. This modern idea that somehow no one can read it and find the truth therein without being on the Supreme Court is absurd.”
The Founding Fathers clearly intended it to be a living document. There is a reason why they established the Supreme Court in the first place.
“It was written in plain language for a reason. It was so that ALL could read and understand the government and laws they were consenting to.”
So all those people going to law school are wasting their time then? Also, were you aware that most people in America at the time of the Constitution’s original drafting were illiterate?
“The only thing a US citizen needs to own such weapons is a Form 4 with its paid tax stamp. These are not “licenses,”
they don’t exist. They are a tax on ownership and are per weapon. A Form 4 documents taxes paid on a single weapon by serial number, it does not allow you to purchase other NFA weapons, only to legally own that one weapon. (National Firearms Act) The paperwork and stupidity that accompanies them are unconstitutional controls and never should have been passed, no thanks to Reagan, but they are not licenses.
I have plenty of NFA weapons in my collection and have never had nor will never have a “license” for them. What each one DOES have is an ATF form 4 with a $200 tax stamp per NFA.
All my weapons are legally owned per NFA.”
So if these guys had such weapons, perhaps WITHOUT such tax stamps, or if they had illegally modified semi-auto weapons, there would be a clear violation of federal law, is that correct?
“The simple fact is that there is no such illegal act as “stockpiling.” It does not matter if one owns 1 AR-15 or 5000. It’s just a scare word. The media loves to use it along with other terms to paint gun owners and guns as “bad.”
Kind of the same way they call semi-automatic weapons automatic “assault rifles” and “assault weapons” and describe pistols as “automatic.”
As if all of these were automatic weapons.”
Who said this is a charge against them?
“So it comes down again to what is “stockpiling?”
Nothing. It is not an illegal act.
You can use those weapons to commit a crime but the ownership of large quantities is not a crime.
You will notice nowhere are they charging them with “stockpiling.””
Thank you Captain Obvious for the wonderful strawman argument.
“It is a non-issue but used as a scare word.
Kind of like the Brady campaign in their infamous wisdom warning us all about “ceramic” guns that don’t exist (the fools saw them in a movie and thought they were real) and armor piercing bullets from the F.N. 5.7 that even the ATF says are not armor piercing. And believe me, the ATF is not the gun owners friend and if they could possibly ban whatever it was they would.”
There is a lot of conflicting information about what pierces armor and what doesn’t. Certain loads of 7.62x25mm(Tokarev), which is not considered a particularly lethal round, can pierce certain types of body armor. You also have to consider what sort of body armor we are talking about.
Of course all of this is a red herring. The fact is these guys wanted to play army, and challenge the government, and even if they are completely innocent, they probably talked too big for their britches, and an informant overheard. In such a case I’m sure they will be released, with a good lesson to boot- Don’t talk tough unless you can back it up.
on April 1st, 2010 at 1:11 pm
Oh you’re right about one thing Jack- “stockpiling” isn’t a charge. Here are some details:
“The indictment further alleges that the Hutaree planned to kill an unidentified member of local law enforcement and then attack the law enforcement officers who gather in Michigan for the funeral. According to the plan, the Hutaree would attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession with Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment, constitute weapons of mass destruction. Subsequently, and in furtherance of this plan, David Brian Stone, the Hutaree’s leader, obtained information about such devices over the internet and emailed diagrams of such devices to a person he believed capable of manufacturing the devices. He then had his son, Joshua Matthew Stone, and others gather materials necessary for the manufacturing of such devices.
According to the indictment, in June 2009, David Brian Stone and his other son, David Brian Stone, Jr., taught other Hutaree members how to make and use explosive devices intending or knowing that the information would be used to further a crime of violence. In addition, the grand jury charged all nine defendants with carrying or possessing a firearm during a crime of violence on at least one occasion.”
on April 1st, 2010 at 2:11 pm
Claiming these people are or were Republicans, TEA Party, “conservative,” or Christian is just slander, if not bigotted. None of those groups would ever tolerate, advocate, or even respect those who plot to randomly murder police. This is not a banana republic where those who use bullets and bombs rather than a ballot box are respected.
on April 1st, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Oh good grieve guilt or innocence aside the whole idea of starting a uprising by shooting a police officer and then massacring the funeral party, to be polite is just idiotic. Now, until the facts are open to public
examination I’ll just consider the hutaree as comic relief fron planet Bizzaro.
on April 1st, 2010 at 2:32 pm
My own father was arrested and nearly tortured by Pinochet. Imagine my influences. When I was a boy I lived in San Miguel de Allende for three years. The invironment was very beautiful. And now, Mexico City, where I lived for a year, has rolled back air pollution. I am very proud and pleased with this miracle.
on April 1st, 2010 at 2:45 pm
What’s a matter Jack, don’t like the ACLU? They’ve done a much better job defending people’s constitutional rights than you or any militia group.
on April 1st, 2010 at 4:59 pm
Ruslan:
“A lot of folks would assume…might possibly be a citizen there.”
And those folks would have poor reasoning ability- in other words, like you.
I am moving on here, I really don’t care anymore about the subject or your insults. We know you are a communist by your own admission which is all we need to know.
Sad.
“A “constitution” shoved down your throat by thugs is not the same thing as a constitution created by the consent of the governed. They are NOT the same thing.”
Oh I must have missed that part in American history where the Constitution was ratified via a popular referendum, which of COURSE would have included the votes of African Americans and women…right?
They were represented by their states, those officials were ELECTED by voting, a far cry from socialists/communists.
“The constitution was written as such by our founders. This modern idea that somehow no one can read it and find the truth therein without being on the Supreme Court is absurd.”
The Founding Fathers clearly intended it to be a living document. There is a reason why they established the Supreme Court in the first place.
That living document garbage is a twisting of intent and nothing but myth. The LEGITIMATE modification system by amendment was made difficult for a reason. Judicial activism that would fundamentally change the constitution is NOT what they intended by having a court. That is what amendments are for.
So if these guys had such weapons, perhaps WITHOUT such tax stamps, or if they had illegally modified semi-auto weapons, there would be a clear violation of federal law, is that correct?
Possession of automatic weapons and other NFA weapons without a tax stamp or illegally modified, yes, would violate NFA, as unconstitutional as it is. I would not consider it criminal but the feds would. One of the reasons the NFA needs to be tossed. (Another reason I don’t love Reagan so much.)
I pointed it out because of the constant and pervasive myth that you brought up about class III licensing. Most folks have no idea how it works or what the law is. If you speak about it now you might have a working knowledge.
“The simple fact is that there is no such illegal act as “stockpiling.” It does not matter if one owns 1 AR-15 or 5000. It’s just a scare word. The media loves to use it along with other terms to paint gun owners and guns as “bad.”
Kind of the same way they call semi-automatic weapons automatic “assault rifles” and “assault weapons” and describe pistols as “automatic.”
As if all of these were automatic weapons.”
Who said this is a charge against them?
No one. It is the intent however to imply that it is illegal, which it is not, or that people that have “stockpiles” are somehow criminals, which usually they are not.
There is a lot of conflicting information about what pierces armor and what doesn’t. Certain loads of 7.62×25mm(Tokarev), which is not considered a particularly lethal round, can pierce certain types of body armor. You also have to consider what sort of body armor we are talking about.
The Tokarev, maybe, but the ATF would love to justify banning it and haven’t, but I don’t have enough variations of body armor to test it at the range. I will always assume that as restrictive as the ATF is they would ban it if possible, unless there is other good evidence I’ll go with the assumption.
“and an informant overheard. In such a case I’m sure they will be released, with a good lesson to boot- Don’t talk tough unless you can back it up.”
The word is coming out that they supposedly had an informant building bombs under his direction, but if so, where are the dang things? Let them tell us about it since they had no problem saying they found guns. Why can’t they say about the alleged bombs etc?
My suspicion will be that it will be milked as much as possible by the feds and lead to further restrictions on freedom.
It is just too convenient for them.
This is just the kind of tool for them to use.
What’s a matter Jack, don’t like the ACLU? They’ve done a much better job defending people’s constitutional rights than you or any militia group.
The ACLU was CREATED by communists FOR communists. Here’s a good chunk from wikipedia:
“The ACLU was formed to protect aliens threatened with deportation, along with U.S. nationals threatened with criminal charges by U.S. Attorney General Alexander Mitchell Palmer for their communist or socialist activities and agendas[11] (see Palmer Raids). It also opposed attacks on the rights of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) and other labor unions to meet and organize.
They were riddled with communists and their mission has always been to use our own law against us.
Yes, I wish they could be shut down and will always be against them.
They do not work for freedom, the constraint of government or individual liberty and are just another enemy.
on April 1st, 2010 at 5:24 pm
This militia stuff is becoming increasingly scary. When we have main stream politicians using rhetoric that incites people to violence this too is worrisome. We have so many people carrying weapons that do not have adequate training. People in some states have been showing carrying guns to political demonsrations. I fear we are nearing more riots and armed civil disobedience.
on April 1st, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Ruslan Amirkhanov you are right about most of them being cowards. But let’s not be self-righteous. You say Mcveigh killed babies. Well I know he killed kids. 6 if I’m not mistaken. But how many childrens deaths is the government responsible for? You will probably never see the kinds of bombings here like you would in other countries because to kill insurgents with bombs here they would also be killing their tax payers, their livelihood. Was what Mcveigh did worse because it was here? The number of people he killed is a drop in the bucket compared to what the United States has done over the years. The worst probably in Japan.
on April 1st, 2010 at 6:10 pm
2.5 things:
1. What’s with all the talk about communism, ACLU, 9/11, etc. The post is about the Hutaries… Huluries… Hollaries… Hillaries… wait. Hillary Clinton’s a terrorist!?
1.5. Speaking of terrorist, I read on a Time blog where someone said something like “wacky Christian wants to bomb/attack government = militia; wacky Muslim wants to bomb/attack government = terrorist”. What’s up with that?
2. Speaking of the ACLU, I saw something funny on the Onion’s site. Something like “ACLU defends Neo-Nazis’ right to bomb ACLU building.”
on April 1st, 2010 at 6:19 pm
John Lloyd Scharf said,
“Claiming these people are or were Republicans, TEA Party, “conservative,” or Christian is just slander, if not bigotted. None of those groups would ever tolerate, advocate, or even respect those who plot to randomly murder police. This is not a banana republic where those who use bullets and bombs rather than a ballot box are respected.”
Thank you John. I couldn’t have said it any better than that.
As I read these comments , I am glad that most view these militia’s as what they are -
Dangerous maniacs.
Maybe in the Revolutionary War days we needed militia’s , but in this day and age that is ridiculous.
Lets say the government was really horrible.
What would these guys do anyway? Defeat the U.S. Army?
All they could ever accomplish whether worthy (unlikely) or not , is internal terrorism.
I favor allowing individuals to own reasonable hunting weapons with restrictions on carry and use , and small personal weapons – with no carry -
to defend their home and family against intrusion in the middle of the night. And only after mental , non-criminal , and operational competancy has been demonstrated.
But that’s freakin it. None of this freakin ridiculous militia crap.
Join the Guard if you want to be in a militia.
But I cant stress enough how sick it is (if that’s what some really think) , or despicable (If you know better and are saying anyway) that Republicans , tea people , or Conservatives support , condone , or incite these maniacs.
Do I have to compile a long list of liberal Dem maniacs to make my point?
How about the one who bit the finger off the old man at a confrontational rally over healthcare?
WHERE THE FREAK IS THAT MENTIONED ON THIS SITE?
Every poll shows Obama down , and this legislation universally polled as thumbs down.
Keep accusing middle class people of being associated with maniacs , and soon all you’ll have left of you is the nuts who make those claims .
You disagree? Then take a look at who all the Democrats in Massachusetts voted for , in deference to the memory of Senator Kennedy , a longtime champion of this bill.
Yeah , the Mass. Dems went with the tea party people , and said “NO” to the winning Senate vote.
I’m glad they nabbed these militia nuts , and I dont care what their politics are , as long as they are practising their warped beliefs while they are making license plates.
on April 1st, 2010 at 10:06 pm
Does the SPLC have a suggestion as to why anti-government hatred is “red hot”? Part of it may be that we have an African American president, part of it may be that the Republican Party has practically become a hate group in itself, and part of it is, in my view, that 9/11 was indeed an inside job, and even if most people haven’t realized it yet, there is such a stink coming out of Washington that everyone can smell it, even if they don’t know quite where it’s coming from. This is resulting in a lot of misdirected anger among the less well-informed.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 5:49 am
Dear Jack,
Which militia do you belong to?
Sincerely,
JAY
on April 2nd, 2010 at 7:48 am
Jack -
“If these guys were so hard core how come no fight when arrested.”
The Feds and state police lured them to a memorial service for a friend (see banner on website) and arrested them there. While at the memorial, the search warrants were executed on the properties. A common non-violent tactic used by law enforcement agencies to lure targets to favorable areas to arrest them. Stings are conducted this way all the time.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 11:05 am
A grand jury with the facts felt there was enough probable cause/evidence to result in an indictment. There will be a jury of their peers that will determine their guilt. This is not an FBI/Obama thing. This is a group of people engaged in a conspiracy to kill officers of the law according to their own writings. The US has one of the best criminal justice systems in the world. If you can find one better, go there to live rather than to expect us to change.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 12:40 pm
Who has murdered more innocent people of African American descent the police or the militia?
That being the case why aren’t the police listed as a “hate group?” Couldn’t be because they are part of the government that you automatically excuse for it’s crimes with blanket protection of don’t look there, could it?
Although I am on the radical left and an atheist and thus find militias to be appalling, and find racism, sexism, homophobia, and all forms of discrimination to be very morally wrong, I also find the SPLs demonization of say 911 truthers who have killed no one, while overlooking police brutality and imperialist war to be incredibly misguided. Your lack of respect for 2nd amendment rights which were intended to allow private citizens to resist government tyranny which is far advanced under both corporate sock puppet parties with for example the Patriot Act is also misguided IMO. You really fail to realize who the real “haters” and murders are which the people in U.S. government uniforms who murdered the Black Panthers who had gasp eek scary guns, and who burned down the MOVE compound. I have seen more vitriol expressed here ie “hate” than just about any web site I have ever visited, and suspect for all your rhetoric about “civil rights,” that most of you are comfortably upper middle class white people, who are disparaging the rural poor in an incredibly classist way which seems to be par for the course for by my standards center right “liberals.” You are scarcely better than the misguided militia people yourselves in terms of hate, but at least you haven’t killed anyone yet, just wasted a lot bandwidth with very classist snide blovating while ignoring real crime by the police and military IMO.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 1:20 pm
To Jay:
I do not hold member ship in any. I am a member of many organizations but none of them are militias.
To Wow:
“Well I know he killed kids. 6 if I’m not mistaken. But how many childrens deaths is the government responsible for?”
Good point.
Another question that situation begs is “What the heck are daycares doing in FEDERAL buildings?”
In any war or armed action a federal building is a legitimate target.
There is no excuse for that. It is like Hussein hiding ammunition in schools and complaining if we bombed them.
If we are in armed conflict it means those kids are in a legitimate target.
I might add Dresden to your list.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 4:45 pm
To Matthew Rogers:
I probably would not agree with you about much of anything but good post.
This is a gem:
” Couldn’t be because they are part of the government that you automatically excuse for it’s crimes with blanket protection of don’t look there, could it?”
They do looove government.
on April 2nd, 2010 at 10:03 pm
So Jack, you consider yourself at war with your government? What are the chances that you would whine and cry if they decided to pick up the gauntlet you threw down?
on April 3rd, 2010 at 6:06 pm
Dave Varez,
First, I will note, there are different chapters for tea party groups.
Now, I will tell you the discrepancy with the tea party movement. Tea Party members say they are not anti-government…..I caught the tail end of a radio talk show. A caller identified himself as Victor McCoy of the Illinois Tea Party. This McCoy stated he was anti-government. Some of the excerpts from his conversation with the host is as follows, the best of my recollection, “I went to court, and was told I needed to wear a suit. I didn’t wear a suit because that would mean I am submitting to the man….’by any means necessary’, this phrase was by Glen Beck, oh, maybe it was Sarah Palin…”
The caller insisted the show host was wrong to say that the phrase, ‘By Any Means Necessary,’ was Malcom X. Instead, it was either Glen Beck or Sarah Palin.
In addition, the host questioned why he (McCoy) was anti-government when he is/was employed by the government. The caller went on to say, something to the effect, he had some type of problem with/at his job due to either magazines/literature that he had been holding for someone else and he didn’t know what it was, but he was holding it for a someone…..
The caller kept accusing the show host of, “trying to trap me…” to the point the caller (McCoy) appeared to become frustrated, and hung up on the show host during this live broadcast.
In other words, most of us as judging the Tea Party members by their actions not just their words. If the Tea Party wants a squeaky clean image, the behavior of some members will call that in dispute!
on April 3rd, 2010 at 6:33 pm
Dave Varez,
I forgot to add, during this live broadcast, Mr. McCoy said that he doesn’t want to pay for people to get medical care – if they had cancer, that’s up to God to determine if they would be kept alive. He went on to insinuate that people who have cancer, have it because of their life style…..
Now, this guy worked from AmTrack. I listened to someone (McCoy) talk that didn’t sound well-educated, angry, and downright scary. As far as I’m concerned, this is scary – guys with this type mentality that holds crucial jobs!!!!! This needs to stop, guys that hold anti-government views, yet work and/or receive benefits from the government. As I am not a religious person (agnostic), I will, however, use this saying from the bible – a fool and his money shall soon part.
No matter how much people try to protect their money, someone eventually gets it. Example, if you have a lot of money, people are always trying to sue you – you spend lots of money defending yourself. Men that have lots of money, usually ‘must have,’ the most beautiful women, and when the relationship ends he will pay child support/marital support…so again, even if the alleged victims don’t see a cent, for sure, the attorneys do!
on April 3rd, 2010 at 9:27 pm
“The US has one of the best criminal justice systems in the world. If you can find one better, go there to live rather than to expect us to change.”
Tell that to relative of Black Panther Fred Hampton murdered by police goons, victims of COINTELPRO like John Lennon and Dr. Martin Luther King, and Earth Firsters! set up by the FB!:
http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair12112009.html
on April 4th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
For people who insist on no-taxes, such as Tea Party, all you have to do is look at the financial crisis in Greece to see that it will happen here. The Republicans are promising no new taxes, no taxes….this is the cause of our problems, ‘no taxes.’ And yes, they favor capitalism, just look at Texas – KBR, lots of ‘oil men,’ school text books…….oh, and Texas has no state taxes, homestead protection that rivals Florida, so again, while they brag about ‘no taxes,’ how much do they consume of tax revenues with receiving no-bid government contracts?
Another thing, look at Detroit, with less tax revenues, the residents also have less government services – police, fire, trash pickup……imagine having to go to the dump yourself – how many people lack transportation to haul their own trash? Just a thought!
on April 4th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
Thanks Jack, and I actually support the right of Americans under the 2nd amendment to have as many guns as they like (but not all my friends do) though I would caution anyone who does so that we only retain the higher ground visa vie the murderous government if we don’t attack first but only respond to their aggression in kind in a tit for tat fashion.
IMO the government and MSM tries to drive wedges between the left and right that are unnecessary, I may for example believe in co-ops say and you in the businessman first and foremost but I would hope you agree with me that concentrated wealth and concentrated power that you might call the New World Order and I “corporate globalism” are the people truly causing misery in this world. Compared to our common foe in globalists IMO minor divisions like my preferring privately held co-ops to say big box stores is pretty minor indeed.
Salud from a member of the decentralist anti authoritarian activist left, try to keep in mind we are not the monsters that the same MSM that demonizes you and your friends as “gun nuts,” tells you we are. BTW we too have been dinged by these dingbats from the SPLC too:
http://eatthestate.org/04-16/S.....otests.htm
on April 5th, 2010 at 12:21 am
at the Democratic party convention in 1924, it was proposed to add a plank to the party platform condemning the Ku Klux Klan and calling for active opposition. by only one vote, the proposal was rejected, as the southern delegates were able to cobble together a majority. the leaders in the Democratic party probably ought to consider a similiar plank condemning this militia movement and calling for strict regulation by, at the very least, the state governments.
the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution gives the state governments the authority to regulate militias, with its phrase “well-regulated militia.” state regulation of militias might make good politics as well as policy.
as for those simpletons in both the Tea party and the Republican party (such as Joe McCarthy during the 1950′s) who worry themselves over communism in the offices of the U.S. government, they don’t even know what the word means. they’re too ignorant to distinguish between commercial regulation and communism, as were the Social Darwinists in the late 19th-century. the anti-government rhetoric of today’s Tea party and the Republican party throughout the entire 20th century dates from this same era; for instance, income tax legislation in 1894 was regarded by the right-wing propagandists as “socialism.”
those who bother to actually read the Constitution before citing it so self-righteously have noticed that it includes a clause providing Congress with the authority to regulate interstate commerce. if they have any intellectual integrity, they also read the U. S. Supreme Court’s consitutional jurisprudence, in order to understand the Constitution. In a dissenting opinion in the Court’s Lochner decision from 1905, Justice Oliver W. Holmes explained that the Constitution does not embody the laissez-faire theory of capitalism. this view became, a few decades later during the 1930′s, the majority view among the justices of the Supreme Court.
since the days of McCarthy in the early 1950′s and the Nixon campaign in 1968 against Hubert Humphrey for the presidency when his colleagues attempted to sabotage peace talks with Vietnam, the Republican party has actively worked to sabotage every Democractic administration that has taken office, rather than to play the role of loyal administration. when the Republican party doesn’t hold the oval office, they adopt a scorced earth policy toward the administration. for them, it doesn’t matter what policies a Democratic administration would adopt. sabotage is their only goal in these situations.
on April 5th, 2010 at 12:23 am
Matthew Rogers,
The Justice System in the U.S. is created by Humans – Humans are not perfect, therefore the U.S. Justice System is not perfect.
It’s a damn sight better than in other countries where you are considered guilty before proven innocent . . . i.e. where they punish you on the slightest suspicion of “wrongdoing”.
I can tell from your post above that you haven’t done much reading.
on April 5th, 2010 at 2:06 am
According to the authorities, there was an undercover FBI agent that infiltrated the Hutaree militia and one other cooperating informant. My question is this: What role did these two informants play in the Militia’s plot to commit violence? Were the FBI informants providing leadership in urging the militia members to commit violence? Doers entrapment come into play in this case? Entrapment is when a law enforcement agent induces a person to commit an offense which the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.
on April 5th, 2010 at 8:46 am
I notice the regulars here are studiously avoiding my criticism that the SPLC has a glaring double standard regarding crimes done by the state v.s. crimes done by private organizations. That isn’t an endorsement of militias so much as an observation of hypocrisy and IMO a failure to identify the institutions doing the real damage of “hating” people and killing often innocent people and disproportionality those of color as well, the police and the military.
on April 5th, 2010 at 9:29 am
Duane, your comparison is most apt in regard to “Killing local cops to protest the Feds would be like killing a gas station attendant to protest big oil.”
I never did that job and live in a state where you are not allowed to pump your own gas. I have seen attendents catch all kinds of crap when the price go up; as if they had anything to do with it.
I also liked you conspiracy theory just below that. I am assuming sarcasm was an element. I have noticed one can develop a conspiracy theory to justify just about anything. Those who waste their time on such things should be writing books or screen plays. Many of us are entertained by them. It is when you take them as history that it falls apart.
on April 5th, 2010 at 9:37 am
Eric Ray, it seems to be their website’s advocacy of violence that brought them to the attention of the FBI et al. If you are accusing them of entrapment, you are just making excuses for them.
on April 5th, 2010 at 10:08 am
My comments keep getting censored. Why? I am polite, to the point, and I generally support the work of the SPLC. Is it just because I say that the SPLC ought to be looking into how our own government is encouraging, organizing and funding terrorists and hate groups as provocateurs whose actions are a pretext for taking away the liberty and civil rights of the American people?
on April 5th, 2010 at 10:46 am
Matthew Rogers that’s because you are a sham and nobody cares what you say. You think we haven’t seen this bullshit before? We see right through your racist blackface.
on April 5th, 2010 at 11:33 am
To assume I haven’t done much reading on these issues is an extremely arrogant and incorrect assumption. I have done a lot of reading about left movements for social justice in the 60s through 90s like MLK, the Black Panthers, Earth First!, MOVE and others were infiltrated and weakened or raided and destroyed by your beloved “justice” system. Are you going to try to deny COINTELRPRO existed despite the Church hearings of the mid 70s?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee
http://books.google.com/books?.....38;f=false
http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/.....gecoin.htm
It sounds like it is you who doesn’t know the history of immoral government actions against the activist left.
Immoral actions BTW that SPLC is notably silent about because according to some you are actually creating databases about and even spying on left social justice groups not just pernicious right wing hate groups like the klandand neo-Nazis who we are the hard left are also fighting.
on April 5th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
“the Democratic party probably ought to consider a similiar plank condemning this militia movement and calling for strict regulation by, at the very least, the state governments.”
As long as they aren’t violating guns laws what possible justification would there be for “strict regulation” of the militia movement? Singling out the free association of the militia people based on their ideology as long as they are not violating other laws or engaging in hateful *activity* would be a violation of the free association clause of the 1st amendment. I believe like Voltaire that though I may disagree with everything you say, I’ll die for your right to say.it. Part of “saying it” is free association as is recognized in the 1st amendment to the Bill of Rights of the Constitution.
It is interesting to me that the rhetoric of centrist “moderate” “liberals” is in fact becoming more overtly authoritarian with these sorts of proposals than so called radicals.
on April 5th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
To Ruslan:
Sorry Ruslan, I do not do anything illegal. I am a law abiding citizen that pays way more than his fair share.
I pursue limiting federal power in a legal fashion.
My opposition to a bloated and illegitimate federal government is pursued via peaceful political means.
My criticism of the federal government placing daycares in federal buildings is legitimate criticism. When nations go to war, government installations are legitimate targets under the laws of war. There is no compelling reason that I can see to put daycares in that situation.
To Matthew Rogers:
Funny you should mention co-ops as I am a member of a food co-op and is where I get my fresh eggs and vegetables. I am no fan of corporate globalism either.
I agree with Thomas Jefferson when he railed against the idea of allowing corporations to have a fictional legal person status.
I joined the co-op for food quality reasons. They are much more expensive and probably out of reach for the average Joe which is a problem. I also buy my meat from local sources.
I do a lot of canning and food preservation. It does not work well with artificially ripened fruit and canning supermarket vegetables is a waste of time. A commercial cannery will do a better job as their produce will be fresher.
Since I work mostly from home I am planning next year to start raising my own chickens for meat and eggs. I have neighbors that do and their chicken and eggs are fantastic.
You can immediately tell one of their eggs from a store’s eggs the minute you rack it into the pan.
on April 5th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Matthew Rogers,
If you look at some of the archives, there are comments about that! Example, last week, week before that…..
on April 5th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
where’s the double standard? the SPLC simply doesn’t focus on events and developments that raise issues involving civil liberties. such issues should be raised, and the ACLU helps in doing so. SPLC obviously has limited resources, as do most non-profit organizations. it’s difficult to do anything well if you can’t maintain a focus.
now, please answer one basic question, as most of us are probably willing to concede that police have behaved in a rather thuggish manner at times and probably will do so in the future. when they do, of course, the victim has recourse to the court system, where he can file a claim alleging excessive force, as Rodney King did against the LAPD.
in light of these circumstances, isn’t a greater problem the rank stupidity of some of the criminal laws themselves rather than abuse of power within the criminal justice system? to criminalize the possession and distribution of marijuana is just as inane as the criminalization of the distribution of alcohol, which was tried in this country for roughly 12 years before its repeal in 1932.
on April 5th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Matthew, Eric
We are on exactly the same wavelength. Thanks for your support.
Come on, SPLC. What are you, a government agency? I hope not. You should be like the ACLU, which is based on the premise that the greatest threat to our civil liberties is the power of our own government when it is not restrained by the rule of Constitutional law. Do you not know that our national security agencies like the CIA, FBI, NSA operate covertly, in secret, and therefore outside of all constitutional restraints? Do you understand that it is in the interest of government agencies, military contractors, energy companies what Eisenhower called the military-industrial complex that there be a state of war? That governments historically have increased their power by means of war, and that they get their own populations to accept a state of war and the sacrifice of their blood and treasure by propaganda that tells them that some other country or group is their enemy? We know that other countries have historically done this. We know that the framers of our Constitution feared such tyranny above all. Don’t you think this could happen here too? It most certainly can happen and it is happening. We must have true transparency in government. We must reject state secrecy. We must know what is really going on on our name.
on April 5th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
If you know someone who thinks crazy doesn’t exist in America just tell them to read this set of comments. You’ve got everything here from govt. conspiracies for Sept. 11, and Oklahoma City to the hutaree are just like Chuckie and his family. Considering that it was all over a certain ethnic drug dealer burning Chuckie for a $1000.00 worth of MDA I don’t see the similarities with the hutaree. Now Oklahoma City I never heard anything about an inside informer, there were the reports of sightings of activity around a truck in a park. As for Sept. 11, the Clinton administration told the cheney- bush group about the danger of Al-Queada but they ignored the warnings and concentrated on how to invade Iraq. Conspiracies anymore are like sunshine everyday they rise in the East and every night they set in the West.
on April 5th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
John,
What “it seems” and what is reality are often different. Are you saying that FBI entrapment should not even be considered?
Tony Wicher
Ontario, CA
ae911truth.org
on April 5th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Tony, I do not believe you have a firm grasp on reality. I checked their website and part of it is missing that includes their goals. I am convinced there was probable cause for an investigation just from their video on YouTube. If you are denying they intended to murder an officer, I cannot refute that. However, I was not on the Grand Jury that indicted them. Neither were you. You are, obviously, a 9/11 conspiracy nut and that subject has become too dry for you; so you are out inventing others. Go write fiction. Or, actually READ a book.
on April 5th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Beholder I am 100% sincere in what I say and have been arrested for my beliefs locking down to a saw mill gate that was millling old growth Redwood trees. You however seem filled with hate and ad hominem towards strangers for someone posting on an ostensibly anti hate site which is sad to me. The only way any of is going to grow and evolve is to share ideas with each with an open heart, yet firm convictions IMO.
Jack we may not agree on everything but you seem like a good egg from your postings here. If you want to see a more open minded left web site where there is diversity of opinions I suggest you stop in at:
http://www.commondreams.org/further/2010/04/02
I am posting there as “stereohead” and would enjoy respectful debate between the right and the left perspective that I hold.
To Beholden again you see I have nothing to hide I use my real name name and tell you what I am doing elsewhere. I am proud of my beliefs stated here, and proud to share them. I suggest openness would do us all some good including Mr. Dees perhaps making an apology for his white supremacist views of the past and supporting the klan through his legal services.
on April 5th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
anybody who bothers to check out this website thoroughly will notice that it includes a section entitled “docket.” if you bother to read that section, it’s clear that the SPLC has filed lawsuits recently against several state actors, including police departments. at this juncture, i’m simply pointing out the obvious.
the justification for regulating private militia movements would be the same as that for state regulation of the KKK, i.e. to protect the political rights of American citizens pursuant to the 15th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. in case nobody remembers the KKK, it has committed many illegal acts over the decades, including criminal conspiracy as well as the suppression of African-American voters. the SPLC recently won a $ 2.5 million verdict against an organization modelled on the KKK that was organized in over a dozen states.
i for one fail to see what is authoritarian about protecting the political rights of American citizens (i.e. the right to vote) from what essentially amounts to domestic terrorism by armed racists. perhaps, someone who has read the 15th Amendment could enlighten me.
on April 5th, 2010 at 7:37 pm
Tony,
LOL. Have Ae911truth found another conspiracy to add to their loony beliefs???!! Architects and engineers for 9/11truth is full of liars and kooks. They have zero evidence to support their theories and accusations. They fail at 9/11 truth. Reality is unknown to them. Ae9/11truth’s lies have been exposed many times and their insane conclusions on 9/11 have been debunked over and over. Ae911truth excels at failure on 9/11 and they fail at understanding the Huratee indictment.
on April 5th, 2010 at 8:06 pm
Of course our wonderful government would never do anything to make us do anything other than bow down in worship before it, would it? Only U.S. private citizens do murderous and hateful things, am I right or what?
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/20.....civilians/
on April 5th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
The comments by “Tony Wicher” and “Matthew Rogers” (this being the Internet – they could be one & the same person) are CLASSIC “conspiracy theory mongering”.
You know what’s fantastic about conspiracy theories? You CANNOT refute them! They are the OPPOSITE of scientific theory / hypothesis in that they assume that their conclusion is true FROM THE BEGNIING and any argument you make against them is circumvented by a parallel argument from their proponent.
Conspiracy theory are more akin to religious dogma than any sincere quest for knowledge or truth.
on April 5th, 2010 at 11:57 pm
John,
I do not answer nor engage in personal attacks.
on April 6th, 2010 at 2:46 am
Jack wrote: “My criticism of the federal government placing daycares in federal buildings is legitimate criticism. When nations go to war, government installations are legitimate targets under the laws of war. There is no compelling reason that I can see to put daycares in that situation.”
Really??? Well then – why have civilians and civilian life at all??? Why not put EVERY American in Kevlar and make them ALL live in bunkers???
Jack – your utter abandonment of Logic & Reason in pursuit of justifying the murders committed by Right Wing Extremists (egged on by the likes of Fox News & Rush Limbaugh) in this country is SICKENING.
on April 6th, 2010 at 9:19 am
Most old growth trees would be up in smoke were it not for the lubmering operations. At this point, Oregon has more timber than ever in history. Fire is a near constant threat for six months of the year. One interesting thing is the hundreds of square miles of forest growing where there only sand and sage in Eastern Oregon. The State doe not have control of it there.
on April 6th, 2010 at 9:23 am
Jay, you are letting your firm grasp on reality and the obvious ruin your willing suspension of disbelief. Like I said in reference to conspiracy theories: Those who waste their time on such things should be writing books or screen plays. Many of us are entertained by them. It is when you take them as history that it falls apart.”
on April 6th, 2010 at 9:27 am
Jeff it is a huge assumption that all militias are racist hate groups. I know for example from even reports from the MSM that the Michigan militia has at least one member with Islamic beliefs of Arabic descent. Sadly that makes it probably about as diverse as the local peace group in Ann Arbor who I have attended marches of against Bush’s horrendous illegal war in Iraq and Afghanistan that was seamlessly continued by “liberal” Obama
While the klan and other racist groups with a history of violence should no doubt be monitored it is IMO an insupportable assumption that militia groups foment racist hate. For example the Michigan militias web site specifically and clearly welcomes members of all races:
“A well-armed citizenry is the best form of Homeland Security and can better deter crime, invasion, terrorism, and tyranny. The intention of this website is to inform, promote and facilitate the development and training of the militia. *Everyone is welcome, regardless of race, creed, color, religion or political affiliation, provided you do not wish to bring harm to our country or people.* If you are a United States citizen (or have declared your intent to become such), who is capable of bearing arms, or supports the right to do so, then YOU ARE the MILITIA!”
http://www.michiganmilitia.com/
If they are a racist hate group why the big welcome sign for one and all? Certainly you would not see that on a horrible Nazi or KKK site.
Further I notice you studiously avoided my query about the free association clause of the 1st amendment. Do you believe that American citizens who are not violating other laws don’t have a right to assemble? If so you are far more dangerous from my black block anarchist sympathetic perspective than any autonomous militia group. Again it seems that it is the moderate (really center right) “liberals” these days arguing for severe restrictions on our freedoms and so called radicals on the left and right who advocate for freedom and tolerance of diverse ideologies. More populism, fewer calls for government violations of the free association clause of the 1st amendment please, thanks!!!!
The old song Love me I’m a liberal by Phil Ochs sadly comes to mind:
“Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I’ve grown older and wiser
And that’s *why I’m turning you in*
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal”
http://www.cowboylyrics.com/ly.....11453.html
on April 6th, 2010 at 9:29 am
You know something, JAY is exactly right. Fox and Rush just keep egging them on.
on April 6th, 2010 at 9:29 am
Jay what have i said that is conspiracy theory? Be specific rather than making vague ad hominem smears, thanks!
on April 6th, 2010 at 9:32 am
“John Lloyd Scharf said,
ON APRIL 6TH, 2010 AT 9:19 AM
Most old growth trees would be up in smoke were it not for the lubmering operations.”
Yes I suppose the space Martians must have logged the forests when they were there for tens of thousands of years in ecological equilibrium before humans even set foot in in the area, eh? Do you even think about logical consistency before putting finger to keyboard?
on April 6th, 2010 at 10:13 am
The SPLC is in the business of exposing and breaking up conspiracies. The Hutaree was a conspiracy. The actions of all these right wing hate groups are conspiracies. Now I tell you that the government, or elements within it, conspired to blow up the WTC, and I am told I am a “conspiracy theorist” who cannot be taken seriously. Why, just because the conspiracy was by the government, or rather criminal elements within the government, suddenly I’m crazy for suggesting it. I am told that my “conspiracy theory” is some sort of article of faith that cannot be “refuted by the evidence”, by people there who have obviously never taken the time to look at the evidence, although it is voluminous, clear and readily available.
Tony Wicher
Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth
ae911truth.org
on April 6th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Here is what I am trying to get at with all the people who support the very valuable work of the SPLC, in teaching tolerance and extirpating hate groups from our society. The SPLC is a legal organization that exposes right-wing conspiracies, correct? We all agree that these neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups are dangerous and must be opposed by every legal means, right? Thus far, I believe we are on the same page. But if I say that such right-wing conspirators reached the highest levels of power during the Bush administration, let’s call them “neocons” instead of “neo-Nazis” and conspired to engineer 9/11 as a pretext for imperial wars in resource-rich Muslim countries, apparently I have said something unthinkable or crazy. Why is that? I’m asking the SPLC to take a serious look at the evidence presented by Richard Gage, AIA, Neils Harrit, Professor of Chemistry at the University of Copenhagen, and other serious physicists, chemists, architects and engineers, and if it feels that it is warranted, to help bring about a new official investigation of 9/11 by all of the legal means at its disposal. If I am right, SPLC could be instrumental in saving the country.
on April 6th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
Jay:
“Really??? Well then – why have civilians and civilian life at all??? Why not put EVERY American in Kevlar and make them ALL live in bunkers???
Jack – your utter abandonment of Logic & Reason in pursuit of justifying the murders committed by Right Wing Extremists (egged on by the likes of Fox News & Rush Limbaugh) in this country is SICKENING.”
Ok, how I am abandoning reason by stating that federal buildings are targets? They always have been whether it is peacetime or wartime.
I think the amount of attacks against them pretty much proves my point.
What do you think will happen when Israel bombs Iran and we are involved in yet another war with a movement that has a fifth column here?
Yep, those federal buildings will be a target.
So, by logical extension, putting daycares in those buildings is placing those children in a target.
It really has nothing at all to do with my or anyone else’s opinion of “Right Wing Extremists.”
Federal employees can drop their kids off at a daycare just like the rest of the working world.
on April 6th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Why don’t you also focus on all radicals spewing hate. There is hate speech, and action against all Americans, not just from the right….
on April 6th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
what kind of a fool would suggest on this website that Mr. Dees should support the klan with legal services? go screw yourself clown.
on April 6th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Why are the 9/11 Truthers commenting on this thread? Does anyone still take the Troofers seriously?
on April 6th, 2010 at 3:03 pm
:beholder said,
ON APRIL 6TH, 2010 AT 9:29 AM
You know something, JAY is exactly right. Fox and Rush just keep egging them on.”
In my case Noam Chomsky, Amy Goodman, Howard Zinn, Norman Finkelstein, Chalmers Johnson, Robert Fisk, Greg Palast, Chris Hedges, Arundhati Roy, Edward Abbey, Earth First! and Wendell Berry, and the anti war movement that keep egging me on. But thanks for trying, too bad it was empty ad hominem smear. This anti-hate group has far more hate on it than any anti authoritarian hard left web site I ever visit.
on April 6th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
Conspiracy or not, the invasion of Iraq began in 1981 with a proposal from Paul Wolfowitz in which he suggested securing natural resources in the Middle East to counter the threat of bolder action after the 1979 storming of the U.S. Embassy in Iran. It has been on the official agenda of every Administration since.
This is historical fact.
on April 6th, 2010 at 5:41 pm
Matthew Rogers, nothing stopped forests from burning. It is just an inconvenient fact. Oregon has more timber standing than any time in history.
on April 6th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
Jeff, the ACLU has supported the KKK and the Neo-Nazis at times due to rights of free speech and freedom of assembly. The SPLC deals with racism, whether it is the Aryan Airheads or the Black Nationalists.
on April 6th, 2010 at 6:13 pm
Matthew,
in response to your query, it’s platitudinous to point out the right of association under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. most of us support that right. we’re quite agreed on that, no matter whether the association wishes to pursue a leftist or a right-wing agenda.
but the crux of this issue is the objective of the specific association. this 1st Amendment right is limited by the 15th Amendment to the Constitution as well as the Voting Rights Act of 1965 enacted pursuant to the 15th Amendment; thus, it does not extend to the deprivation of the political rights of American citizens. in the case of hate groups in the U.S., such as the KKK, their objective has traditionally been to deprive minorities of their right to vote and to organize.
in 1964, as you’re probably aware, it became illegal in this country, under the Civil Rights Act passed that very same year, to discriminate against minorities in hiring as well as the provision of services to the public. that “welcome all banner” posted by the Michigan militia that you mentioned in your comment is, in substance, commonly posted by many other businesses and associations in this country. few if any people are impressed with such statements. even major corporations that get sued successfully for civil rights violations post such notices.
forgive me, but i think it naive, given the rise of the neo-nazi movement in this country and some European countries, to construe this proclamation by the Michigan militia, as a statement of fraternal goals and objectives.
since operatives of the the Republican party insist on suppressing the votes of African-Americans even in our own time (e.g. Ohio in 2004 when Michael Steele was the state supervisor of elections) whenever necessary to win elections, the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution should be invoked to regulate militias.
by the way, even before Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany in 1933, the Nazi party had its storm troopers. their function was to intimidate anyone who had opposing views from publicizing them. that historical episode involved a legitimate political party working in tandem with a low-level domestic terror organization. the Republican Party in this country is not ignorant of this episode.
on April 6th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
John monocultures of even aged trees are not a viable eco-systems but keep repeating timber industry propaganda and sidetracking the discussion, it’s only you who looks foolish here.
on April 6th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Matt Rogers, as much as you repeat the bogus propaganda of the “eco” types, it is not the truth. If you want to attribute the fact that Oregon has the highest acreage of timber in its history to some “timber industry,” like the conspiracists, I will not stop you. I grew up with a dad who was shanghied to fight fires. We are better at detecting and putting them out. Certainly 150 years ago there were no firefighters to stop the fires. Of course you must believe the US government compromised in the stats. You must have a bad case of tunnel vision caused by a lack of common sense on the issue.
on April 6th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
john lloyd scharf,
i’m aware that the ACLU has defended domestic terror groups, such as the KKK, in legal proceedings involving 1st Amendment issues. if i recall correctly, the famous Brandenburger decision of 1969 by the U.S. Supreme Court construing the speech clause involved an ACLU attorney at some point in the proceedings.
in my opinion, the more heroic and more effective course of action was taken by LBJ’s Department of Justice during the 1960′s, when the FBI was employed to investigate the KKK and criminal prosecutions followed. to the extent that life improved in the south for African-Americans, it was due to the 1964 Civil Rights Act, the 1965 Voting Rights Act, and the deliberate decision by the U.S. attorney-general to throw the weight of the DOJ into the enforcement arena, which hadn’t been done for decades. The ACLU made little if any contribution to those particular developments.
as for the racism of the Black Nationalists (or of African-Americans for that matter), this is an argument that began with Governor George Wallace of Alabama, who referred to it as reverse racism, in the early 1960′s, when the civil rights movement was active and southern whites felt besieged due to the threat to the Jim Crow regime. it is analogous to traditional white racism only when it pervades the institutions of state. Republicans have exploited this Wallace constituency since 1964, when Goldwater employed his famous southern strategy. pointing to affirmative action programs in particular helps to gin up support.
as for the SPLC, it does good work (e.g. suing the Imperial Klans of America), like the rest of the civil rights plaintiffs’ bar. i trust it to prioritize its litigation properly, particularly in light of de Tocqueville’s discussion of the tyranny of the majority.
on April 6th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
beholder said,
on April 6th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
Conspiracy or not, the invasion of Iraq began in 1981 with a proposal from Paul Wolfowitz in which he suggested securing natural resources in the Middle East to counter the threat of bolder action after the 1979 storming of the U.S. Embassy in Iran. It has been on the official agenda of every Administration since.”
Beholder,
Now we’re getting somewhere. Consider this: everyone knows that there was a conspiracy on the part of the Bush administration, the neocons and various elements of our intelligence apparatus to fabricate the causus belli that that Saddam had WMD and was ready to use them. Remember? Everbody saw through that lie when the invasion happened and nothing was found. Now, why is it so unthinkable that people who would do that would also blow up the WTC? And given this record, why in the world would anyone give any credence to the “investigations” of 9/11 that took place under the auspices of Bush administration? Think about it.
This is historical fact.
on April 6th, 2010 at 9:28 pm
jeff:
I believe you are referring to Ken Blackwell, not Michael Steele. Steele is from Maryland; Blackwell is from Ohio.
on April 6th, 2010 at 9:52 pm
Matt,
You and I are on the same wavelength, and I thank you for your support. I was at the ANSWER march in LA last week and the largest contingent there were 9/11 truthers from WAC LA. I consider the 9/11 truth movement to be the vanguard of the anti-war, anti-imperialism movement generally. In fifty years of marching, we have not stopped imperialism, because we had no weapons, but now, we have one: 9/11 truth. I call it the nuclear weapon against war. The problem so far has been that both liberals and most of the left wing, such as Chomsky, are strangely unwilling to even consider the possiblilty that there was a government conspiracy involved, even though in other contexts they know very well how utterly mendacious the Bush administration was. I am trying to break through this barrier, here at the SPLC, at the ACLU, contacting honest liberal Senators like Barbara Boxer, etc.
Tony Wicher
Ontario, CA
tonywicher@verizon.net
ae911truth.org
on April 7th, 2010 at 12:59 am
in re. my previous comment of April 6, 2010, Kenneth Blackwell, not Michael Steele, was the public official in Ohio responsible for the supervision of elections at the time of the 2004 presidential election. my mistake.
on April 7th, 2010 at 1:56 am
“Author: Tony WicherComment:The SPLC is in the business of exposing and breaking up conspiracies. The Hutaree was a conspiracy. The actions of all these right wing hate groups are conspiracies. Now I tell you that the government, or elements within it, conspired to blow up the WTC, and I am told I am a “conspiracy theorist” who cannot be taken seriously. Why, just because the conspiracy was by the government, or rather criminal elements within the government, suddenly I’m crazy for suggesting it. I am told that my “conspiracy theory” is some sort of article of faith that cannot be “refuted by the evidence”, by people there who have obviously never taken the time to look at the evidence, although it is voluminous, clear and readily available. Tony WicherArchitects and Engineers for 9/11 Truthae911truth.org”
Tony,
At least believers in Sasquatch/Bigfoot have that fuzzy Patterson-Gimlin footage from 1967 to hang their hopes on.
You – Tony – have EVEN LESS than that to prove your contention . . . hence, we lump you in with the other conspiracy theorists.
on April 7th, 2010 at 9:22 am
Jeff, your whole view of history is distorted. LBJ and the Democrats would never have put through the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
on April 7th, 2010 at 10:45 am
Jay,
As I said previously, these words of yours are coming from someone who has obviously never taken a serious look at the evidence because he believes a priori that it is impossible. It is you are in a psychological state of denial. You just shut your eyes and your ears and hurl smears and insults. But I am sure you are a person of good will, just misled, and you will probably wake up at some point. Meanwhile, I will try to work with SPLC people less intolerant, and narrow-minded than yourself.
on April 7th, 2010 at 10:47 am
Tony I understand your vehemence on this point but I fail to see the critical link that suggests conspiracy.
I think the invasion of Iraq was the greatest rape of the American people’s good faith perhaps in the history of our country, even more than socialists being imprisoned for opposition to WWI and even worse than McCarthy and the red scare. I have absolute belief that Bush was an evil minded opportunist who saw an opportunity to dupe the American public and provoke a war in Iraq, that had zero relevance to the “War on Terror” whatever THAT is supposed to mean in a soundbite.
However being an opportunist and power drunk maniac are different than being a conspirator.
on April 7th, 2010 at 11:25 am
I don’t think the government deserves our unflinching trust. How many times has the government lied to the American people? It’s healthy to be suspicious of pathological liars. 4,500 American troops have died in Iraq based upon a huge lie. In an early post I was merely asking the question: What role did the FBI informants play in planning the violence? Were the directing the group or were they passive participants. If they were directing, it is entrapment. I’m not saying they were..just asking questions. I have no sympathy for the Hutaree Militia; they hold some really insane beliefs. But that in and of itself is not a crime.
on April 7th, 2010 at 11:51 am
“since operatives of the the Republican party insist on suppressing the votes of African-Americans even in our own time (e.g. Ohio in 2004 when Michael Steele was the state supervisor of elections) whenever necessary to win elections, the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution should be invoked to regulate militias.”
What a load!
We all remember black people getting beat with batons and being tear gassed to keep them from the polls.
on April 7th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
If I read one more 9/11 “truth” post in this topic, I’m going to spam a website of my own! I mean it. If I see the number 9 attached to anything besides a year or the number of Hut-hut-hikes indicted, I’m posting a link.
on April 7th, 2010 at 5:21 pm
Jack, the militia was stopped before they could construct and use the IED’s to kill law enforcement. Oh, boo, hoo, hoo.
Your logic is not that. It’s illogical.
#9 had a 2 hr. standoff w. the authroities before he gave up.
Also, geeze, they are ugly.
on April 7th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
For those of you attempting to justify or minimize what the Hutaree were doing:
http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/st.....id=7367570
Andrea Harsh, ex-fiancée of David Stone, warns that their dedication to their cause is intense. “They went so far to make a big map on a room in their house of their own country and their own names of their countries and cities and stuff. It’s very extensive.”
Their dedication to the cause also carried over into their personal lives. In a recent wedding ceremony, many of the members were wearing their Hutaree uniforms.
Prosecutors report that one suspect killed his cat so he could “see if he had it in him to kill something he cared about.”
on April 7th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.....ullarticle
on April 8th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
I have been thinking of what to say here for several days,m then I get sad
and depressed and I stop. I have realized what I want to say, what we are suffering from is 70yrs. of lies, starting the day President Harry S. Truman signed the bill forming the N.S.A. This launched the era we now live in hallways of mirrors on a scale no amusement park could imagine. These hallways are also booby trapped and filled with people pushing their own agendas above all reason.
This is why there are people who believe anything that they are told by the people who stand for what they believe and so birthers, anti-abortionists, anti-gay marriage, groups and more unstable bands populate the country and world. Now taking on all these groups and showing why they are mislead is too daunting and I do not have enough Acetaminophen to stop the headache. Though a few things will not hurt too much, it amazes me how you can show the people how their leaders for all they speechifying are destroying the life they want protected. Or the anti-abortionists, gay marriages who believe that their leaders are with them when if that were true the would make a speech in person or at the very least send a high ranking administration member to speak, not just a phone call that is just lip service. Then you have the 9/11 Truthers now I do not agree with them but it is fairly evident that the cheney-bush administration
had been warned by the out going Clinton administration about Al-Quaeda and the danger they poised. Then cheney-bush started planning invasion of Iraq and waited for a reason to invade and on Sept, 11, 2001 they got the reason. Then by manipulating the intelligence to what they wanted disregarding the facts we were off to invade Iraq. This is just a minute reason for the mess America is dealing with, the whole picture is impossible to see because everyday new streams are started and grow to rivers of misinformation.
on April 8th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
You guys are soooo funny… And I here it is said the militia’s are the hate mongers…. Y’all have your hate down so good that you don’t even realize when you spout it …. Well done evil dudes… You guys keep talking and we look better all the time. As far as Hutaree, I think I will do like the Constitution teaches, wait till they have their day in court before I convict them. I won’t judge them like y’all… God says leave that to him.
Greywolf
47 wolfpack militia
on April 9th, 2010 at 10:41 am
That’s right Greywolf. And if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, I reckon it’s good enough for our country too. Dam furriners.
on April 10th, 2010 at 1:33 am
john: check your history. LBJ was president in 1964, had the support of the northern Democrats in both houses of Congress, and signed the Civil Rights Act into law. Since the 1948 Democratic convention, the party platform had included a civil rights plank, which was originally proposed by Hubert Humphrey. this is basic stuff; go look it up for yourself if you don’t believe me.
jack: i’m afraid you’re attempting to put words in my mouth. i never insinuated that Kenneth Blackwell and his subordinates in Ohio beat African-American voters during the presidential election of 2004. making them wait hours in line to vote due to a shortage of voting machines, while white voters in suburban precincts were able to vote quickly and conveniently without such a wait, was Blackwell’s preferred method of vote suppression. Republicans these days are more sophisticated than were Bull Connor and the KKK.
Greywolf: religion is the opiate of the masses, but you’re right to insist that every criminal defendant is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. we’ll wait for a verdict.
More importantly for the purpose of this discussion, why do you and your colleagues insist on calling yourselves a militia when you have no formal association with the National Guard, the real militia created and funded by the federal government pursuant to Article I, Section 8, of the U.S. Constitution? Why do you feel the need to legitimize yourselves by usurping the title of a militia and exploiting the patriotism as well as the naivete of others, when few if any of you care enough even to join the National Guard? if you want to call yourselves, for example, the “redneck gun club,” that’s fine and dandy. but why the “militia”?
on April 10th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
Jeff, you definitely have tunnel vision on the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The Democrats were extremely divided on that. George Wallace CUT HIS TEETH as a primary candidate 1964 and split the party in 1968 with his American Party. Nixon and Humphrey ran neck and neck. Nixon won by a very narrow percentage of the popular vote. Wallace had 13% of the vote, mostly out of the South. Humphrey won 42%, mostly out of the North. Senator Robert Byrd opposed the measure:
By party
The original House version:
Democratic Party: 152-96 (61%-39%)
Republican Party: 138-34 (80%-20%)
Cloture in the Senate:
Democratic Party: 44-23 (66%-34%)
Republican Party: 27-6 (82%-18%)
The Senate version:
Democratic Party: 46-21 (69%-31%)
Republican Party: 27-6 (82%-18%)
The Senate version, voted on by the House:
Democratic Party: 153-91 (63%-37%)
Republican Party: 136-35 (80%-20%)
on April 10th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
john: what tunnel vision? in my previous comment, i noted that northern Democrats in general supported passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and the figures that you’ve cited in your comment indicate that the bill was approved by a clear majority of them at that time (roughly by a 60 – 40 % split). Note that i never said that the Republican caucus in the Congress did not support passage. where did you find these figures by the way?
what i did say about the Republican party is that, with Goldwater’s presidential campaign of 1964, they began to exploit the Wallace supporters for political advantage. as we know, this crowd of southern Democrats opposed passage of the Civil Rights Act. candidate Goldwater saw an opportunity to turn southern Democrats, e.g Senator Strom Thurmond of South Carolina, into supporters of his Republican campaign for the presidency. this appears to have resulted from a concern over political expediency.
Thurmond defected from the Democrats and joined the GOP that very year, because Goldwater promised that he would oppose federal promotion of civil rights for African-Americans. This was his famous southern strategy, which has been used by the GOP since then. 1964 was the first time in decades that the southern states cast their electoral votes for the Republican candidate for the presidency. More recently, in the administration of George W. Bush, another southern Republican, the civil rights division of the Department of Justice prosecuted remarkably fewer civil rights cases.
the presidential election of 1964 marked the beginning of a long term trend in the gradual transformation of the two major political parties in this country, a tranformation that is most conspicuous in the south, which had voted solidly Democratic and now votes solidly Republican.
several scholarly works have been written on the transformation of the Republican party since 1964 into one dominated by southerners, e.g. The Rise of the Southern Republicans by Earl Black; and The Paranoid Style in American Politics by Richard Hofstadter. Hofstadter is particularly interesting because he was writing in the mid-1960′s. For more information on candidate Nixon’s southern strategy during his presidential run in 1968, in which southerners Strom Thurmond and Spiro Agnew played a significant role, i suggest the book Nixon Agonistes by Gary Wills from the late 1960′s.
on April 11th, 2010 at 6:24 pm
Greywolf,
Aren’t you a member of Stormfront? I’m pretty sure I’ve read about you before, and I think it was in a news article about Stormfronters. If you are indeed a member of Stormfront, you are in no position to be accusing anyone else of being “hate mongers”.
on April 12th, 2010 at 8:16 am
Mason,
Isn’t Stormfront a Neo-Nazi umbrella organization?
JAY
on April 12th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
according to associated press online today, state legislators in Oklahoma and leaders of local tea parties there are considering the formation of a state militia ostensibly to protect against overreaching by the federal government.
the details are rather vague as usual for daily news. nevertheless, the article is worthy of a peek.
on April 14th, 2010 at 11:33 pm
AHHHHHH, what a wonderful site. All this hate and history too. Thank you SPLC!!!! I am rather new here and have a lot of catching up to do. I am not too familiar with the 2nd. ammendment but just heard yesterday that the president of the US is in charge of all such militias. If thats the case, all he has to do is ask them to lay down their weapons and disband. Dont you think? Oh, I forgot———he’s the enemy!!! I thought people like Timothy Mcveigh was the enemy. No? You say he”s a patriot, and Obama is the enemy because he’s a socialist? Wait a minute, ” I’m a socialist!!!! Am I also the enemy? I dont belong to any militia. I dont plot to kill cops in the name of christ and I am not a violent person. I’m so confused!!!! Because I am a socialist, is my life in danger? Are there any socialist militias? Maybe I should join one. Nah, I couldnt shoot anyone if I had to. If I dont like my government that was freely elected I can vote them out!!!! Many years ago many of us on the left were told things like, “My country right or wrong” and “Love it or leave it” . Get the point?
on April 16th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Ron,
Let’s talk about this idea of the supposed freedom we have to vote and determine our destiny.
The late Leo Huberman, one of the most prominent American socialist thinkers, pointed out that the American people have a choice of voting for Republican X or Democrat Y, but this is merely the freedom to choose between which representative of the capitalist class will make laws in Congress to serve the interests of the capitalist class.
It’s a valid point.
The proof of this is the approval by both Democrats and Republicans of the law allowing direct contributions by large corporations to political campaigns, over the overwhelming opposition of the American people to this law (both Democrats and Republicans), as demonstrated by public polls.
Another perfect example of this is how the Republican party – and presumably its constituents – continue to support the banks when nearly unanimously, these banks have lent their own support to the Obama administration. The banks will support whoever is in power, because they know that when they give support they will receive support, and this is essentially the problem of capitalism and the corruption of our political system.
Yet another example is the recent health care reform law whose primary beneficiaries will be the large insurance corporations, just as it was the large insurance corporations who were the predominate financial contributors to the campaign to remove the public option (a massively funded national advertising campaign aimed at scaring the people).
These reforms inevitably maintain the existing property structures and reinforce the status of the owners of the means of production in spite of whatever palliative is granted to the people. In other words, the owners of the means of production will give up only the smallest concession necessary to preserve the continuation of their predominance economically and politically in our country.
The essential structure of the exploitive system is never dismantled, because the influence of the corporations over politics is greater than the influence of the workers on their legislative representatives almost without exception. If a candidate does arise who will truly represent the worker, he will be marginalized and not receive the funding of the major corporations, and will inevitably be excluded from the cronyism that runs Washington.
on April 16th, 2010 at 2:48 pm
beholder, your biases are showing. If there ever was a time in history where any political party or movements were radicallly different, it is the Democrats and Republicans at this point.
on April 16th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
Beholder, thanks for the lengthy response. For some reason part of my post was “eaten”. My comment re: voting out the person one hates was supposed to be tongue in cheek or facetious.
I have been well aware that we basically only get to vote for one representative of capatalist corporations or another. Those individuals who are taking up arms in the name of jesus, (Michigan christian militia et al) all seem to be frightened and confused as a result of what is happening in our country and around the world re: the sorry state of the econemy, terrorism and other changes that seem to be very upsetting to them. A womans right to choose and gay marriage just to mention a couple.
The militia folks as a result of their fear and confusion do not in my opinion know how to respond other than to take their hatred out on “the govment” that allows these terrible sins to happen. They would like very much to go back in time when life was much more simple.
Its very interesting that you say, “The essential structure of the exploitive system is never dismantled, because the influence of the corporations over politics is greater than the influence of the workers on their legislative representatives almost without exception”.Thirty minutes ago I just heard an MSNBC commentator state, Obama received almost a million dollars from Goldman Sachs. The beat goes on
on April 16th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Ron,
As long as the state represents only the interests of a handful of individuals who have property (large corporations), it can never truly be said that America is a land of freedom, and the servitude of the American citizen in a system of wage labor – performing the most work for the least wage – will continue.
If the people, who by definition in a capitalist society are in the demographic majority but economic minority, do not control the economy through their vote for their own interests – and not the interests of those who own the means of production — the supposed democratic structure of the “free market” system is revealed as an economic dictatorship.
If the profits cannot be yanked out of the wages of the worker directly in the “free market”, they will be yanked out of their wages through taxes that go to fund the corporations or at least protect their status as de facto plutocrats.
on April 16th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
“Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.”
Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations
on April 17th, 2010 at 11:45 am
Gee, I go away for a couple of days(computer crash) and the people who lack a real knowledge of U.S. govt.,ill-informed of the facts, and just plain know nothing sprout. Like weeds in a field of un-GM corn seed and that is good, it is part of what The Constitution is there for, open and meaningful discussion
of ideas and thinking.
Now no elected official I know of has endorsed the decision that allows corporations and unions to back a candidate or political party with unlimited money. The only person to react was Justice Alito inappropriately said something under his breath when President Obama gave the decision a negitive rating in The State of the Union.
Civil government as instituted in America, was for the protection of property of all citizens poor and rich. Over the years this fact has become blurred, misconstrued and just misunderstood leading to the amazing misquoting that that is heard from all sides.
Armed militias have always been a part of the American experience, after the Revolutionary War they were used to protect the farthest settlements going west. Then during the Civil War there were raiders on both sides the most well known being Quantrill’s Raiders, after the war most went west and disappeared, the James Bros. and the Younger’s and it did not end well for them. Except for some mostly political groups mostly unarmed, the KKK being the exception it was quiet. Then came the sixties and the world went electric(drugs), and the rate of armed militias has increased exponentially. With the passage of time the militias have become more violent and incredibly twisted in their interpretation of their manifestos political or religious.
There is a way to stop and change all this by standing by the teachings of Thoreau, Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. peaceful nonviolent disobedience. If you think that is stupid, realize that one man just sitting down put the finally nails in the coffin of the British Empire and just saying President Obama it should strike like lighting, it works.
on April 17th, 2010 at 11:47 am
“If there ever was a time in history where any political party or movements were radicallly different, it is the Democrats and Republicans at this point.”
John Lloyd Scharf on April 16th, 2010 at 2:48 pm
That’s an interesting way to describe two peas in a pod. Tell me, do you often generalize?
on April 17th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Quotes are always a good point to discuss but rarely constitute an argument. If the defense of property only if it protects both the property of the poor and the rich is it civil or civilized. We all have property, whether it is our goods, land, or labor.
Adam Smith’s perspective is that of a Scott before our independence and so therefore bares little or no legitmacy as a supposed observation of the US.
on April 17th, 2010 at 8:41 pm
“beholder,” you will excuse us if we do not accept your view of States or corporations and do not chose to drink the blue koolaid of a collectivist.
on April 18th, 2010 at 1:17 am
ron,
the sociological explanation you offered for the militia movement makes sense. perhaps, it represents an identity movement of white men in response to both the civil rights movement and the feminst movement. it would be natural given the militaristic leaning in American culture for such a movement to adopt the martial spirit.
beholder,
another onfolding example of bipartisan corruption is the conviction of Bradley Birkenfeld, which promises to engage the attention of the press for some time to come. UBS, in the figure of Michael Wolf, has a connection into the presidency, and former Senator Phil Gramm sits on the UBS board of directors apparently. in addition, legislators of the U.S. government opened overseas accounts with UBS, according to Birkenfeld. so, naturally in our system of governance, the Department of Justice prosecuted him, probably for the purpose of discouraging other whistle blowers from reporting more details. the element of socio-economic class in the story provides obvious background.
now for the thorny question of change. as a practical matter, how realistic is it to expect fundamental change in the structure of the economic system in the U.S. without, at the very least, a strong socialist or social-democratic party? were such a party in power, it could affect such change constitutionally. at the very least, it would shift the debate substantially to the left; hence, the presidential campaigns of Eugene Debs early in the twentieth century.
even in his strongest showing Debs received no more than five percent of the popular vote. to build such a party in this country would take decades, assuming it’s possible. it seems we are stuck choosing the lesser of two evils for the moment.
on April 19th, 2010 at 10:48 am
Jeff,
Clearly socialism was perceived as enough of a threat to those in power for the past hundred years that it was felt a dedicated effort to persecute, jail, and execute socialists was in order.
My point is that Americans have been institutionally misinformed about socialism for the express intent of easing resistance to the heavy spending in the military-industrial complex via taxation. It is a point of curious historical fact that CIA in the early 1970s no longer considered the U.S.S.R much of a threat to the U.S., even though their assessment was kept from the American people for decades. Why?
Whereas the average American has a series of assumptions and value judgements about socialism that are decidedly negative, people raised pretty much anywhere else in the world do not have the same kneejerk reaction — whether or not they are socialists.
We’ve seen the same phenomenon over the past 30 years with a dedicated effort by those on the right wing to turn the word “liberal” into a sneer. The reason being is that it is difficult to put aside critical thinking when looking at facts and reason, but not when you are able to enshroud a group in a perjorative label that requires nothing more complex than hate to perpetuate itself.
In fact, Karl Marx was greatly influential around the world, and our own country began to embrace socialism at the same time as it became clear that capitalism would lead to the formation of oppressive monopolies that were themselves at cross purposes with democracy.
Were it not for socialism, we would still be working in the mines in fourteen hour shifts, paying for our tools, lamps, and blasting powder through deductions in our wages that would prevent any individual from gathering the means to quit their job, even though that “right” is sanctified and kept absolute in theory.
The progressive policies advanced under the New Deal have been repeatedly and aggressively beaten back and reduced, even though in virtually every other industrialized nation this has not been the case. Some institutions still survive, such as OSHA, the FCC, FDA, and EPA, as well as TANF and food stamps, medicare and medicaid, affirmative action, etc, but our federal support for these programs is comparatively less than our industrialized counterparts.
The most typical argument — or might I say, stereotypical — against socialism is that it is “impractical”. This is an easy stance to argue, because impracticality means very little of itself. Impractical to whom?
Obviously the boom and bust cycle of capitalism is inherently impractical as well.
Furthermore there is nothing inherent to socialism that would contradict personal property rights. The property in question — means of production — is held by the demographic few who benefit exponentially by the profits taken from the demographic majority through a system of wage labor that by its very nature seeks to pay the smallest possible wage to ensure the highest profit. The conflict inherent in this system arises when the wages are too small to support consumption, and industry retracts, leading to economic crisis.
on April 19th, 2010 at 7:17 pm
beholder,
your comments on propaganda strategies are well taken. it appears that propaganda is an integral part of mass politics. it’s definitely this way today, and probably has been for centuries since, let us say for the sake of convenience, the development of the Whig and Tory parties in England in the 1680′s. Consider, for example, the Federalist papers in this country, which were all published in newspapers as part of the a propaganda campaign to convince the public to support ratification of the U.S. Constitution.
i don’t mean to put words in your mouth here. is it your view that the development in this country of the Populist Party in the 1890′s followed by the Socialist Party under Eugene Debs then the Progressive Party, created a sort of pressure on the two-party system that shifted the national political debate leftward? Theodore Roosevelt’s domestic policies as a Republican president followed by a run for the presidency on the Progressive ticket in 1912, still astonishes, notwithstanding his imperialistic foreign policy.
i ask because, in light of the dictionary’s definition of the term “socialism,” the progressive legislation that characterized the late 19th century and early 20th century, beginning with, e.g., the Interstate Commerce Act of 1886, clearly does not qualify as socialism, i.e. the nationalization of the means of production. the same is true of the federal legislation that to some extent was inspired by that from this earlier period, such as the New Deal legislation and the Great Society legislation.
as for the military-industrial-congressional complex, it amounts to a military Keynesianism (i suppose the proper label is “state capitalism”) that both parties by and large support.
i’d be interested in any views you may entertain about the Democratic Socialist Party in this country.
on April 20th, 2010 at 11:04 am
Jeff your comments on the origins of the progressive party are intriguing, but I really don’t know enough about the subject to opine one way or the other. I do believe however if you look at the global events going on in that time period, the rise of labor movements in opposition to the conditions of the industrial worker, you will see that prevailing social conditions led to the formation of political parties, and therefore I tend to think that the underlying conditions of the populace from the 1890s forward — and not the embodiment of their concerns into a political party — were what shifted the debate leftward.
It could be argued that without the party the voice would have been unheard, but I tend to think that incorporating workers’ issues into the political debate would have occurred one way or the other.
Other interesting points you raise: newspapers and the “free press” were by and large partisan in their origins, and always have been. I do not believe in objective journalism, as a rule. Perspective can only be obtained through critical thinking about diverse views.
As for the military industrial complex, this is an extremely interesting subject. I look to WWI as the defining event for the rise of a rush on resources around the world (coal, oil, iron and steel), and at the same time the rise of political influence of the industrial complex, since it became apparent after WWI that industry profited from both sides of the war and that to win a war required massive industrialization and access to resources. So, what better way to ensure a military-industrial complex than to create a false enemy vis-a-vis “socialism”.
Though you are absolutely correct in the strict definition of socialism as nationalized means of production, when I refer to socialism it is in less confining terms. By having OSHA, FDA, FCC, etc, we created federal superstructures over the means of production, and I consider that socialism. Similarly, unions, while existing in the capitalist system, are inherently socialist as they seek to project the influence of workers even though this does not imply ownership of the means of production.
Socialism continues to evolve and our paranoia about the topic in the United States does not serve the best interests of our country. The more or less keynesian “third way” I think you are referring to is one such example, but I also see promise in the solidarity economy (cooperatives) as a viable socialist model that can be incorporated within the existing production structures.
Socialism does not presuppose destroying everything in order to rebuild.
on April 20th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
beholder,
we’re agreed on the basic materialist analysis for fundamental socio-political change, i.e. mass poverty. though this is necessary, it is not a sufficient condition for such change, as Trotsky observed. “We have paid far too dearly for this conclusion — with regard to the role and importance of a party in a proletarian revolution — to renounce it so lightly or even to minimize its significance.” See his “Lessons of October.” (hence, my previous question to you on the subject; no need to belabor it further.)
while we agree on much, i would quibble with any loose usage of the word “socialism.” it’s a political mistake to invite abuse of this term by the American Right. those regulatory agencies you referred to ought properly to be called “regulatory agencies,” particularly since Congress has the authority, under Article I, Section 8, of the U.S. Constitution, to regulate interstate commerce. nor is there anything socialistic about commercial regulation; King Hammurabi of Babylon was regulating commerce in the 18th century B.C. in his legal code.
your comment re. the military-industrial complex reminds me of Senator Vandenburg’s comment to President Truman when he proposed a drastic increase in the budget of the air force in the late 1940′s, “you’ll have to scare the hell out of the American people.”
on April 26th, 2010 at 4:36 am
No one understands. Its all for show. Even this very web site that claims to fight hate, must hate as well. It’s a little bit messed up that most hate group’s reported on here are white, and that most violent crime in the U.S. is black on white crime.
on April 26th, 2010 at 8:26 am
Gdog00187 – where are you getting your “facts”??? Can your back up your statement, “most violent crime in the U.S. is black on white crime”???
I DARE YOU, I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU!
on May 1st, 2010 at 4:37 pm
In the end, denying the fundamental humanity of anyone simply leads to violence and is wrong. You shouldn’t curb anyone’s right to free speech, neither should you articulate hate-filled vitriol, though it is within your rights to do so. Paranoia is on the rise in America.
On the other hand, since the economic downturn, so many people are angry. The report released by the SPLC merely confirms that many americans feel alienated and have lost faith in their government. This lack of faith and the breakdown of infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc,) is troubling. The american society of civil engineers gave US infrastructure a D. While paranoia should be avoided, we as Americans can’t help but feel that something is seriously wrong with this country, even if we can’t put our finger on it.
I certainly hope there isn’t a power crisis within the US government in the near future, because radical groups like these would quickly and effectively fill the vacuum.
on May 3rd, 2010 at 3:10 pm
“Nice try though lump me in with the Neo Nazis… If you haven’t read my writings don’t try to figure me out. You can’t… Not a racist, or gay basher, just a patriot who actually took his oath seriously.”
Greywolf
47 wolfpack Militia
————–
Maybe a little … too seriously. I’m only sayin’.
on February 22nd, 2011 at 6:04 pm
Chelene Nightingale now involved with the RAP restore america wacko group. RAP listed with the FBI has a domestic terrorist organization, that creates their won “shadow government” issues their own I.d. cards and does not regard the laws of “our” government” to pertain to them. Google a recent rally she hosted with a “ken Cousens” google Cousens name, you will see her introduced as the “CA dejour” governor. Just one more nut to add to her jar. Truely delusional. This group says ‘THEIR” PRESIDENT is a man named Tim Turner. Oh boy! Google this dude, and find out about this so called sovereign” citizen group is all about! cuckoo cuckoo! :0