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White Supremacists Find Common Cause with Pam Geller’s Anti-Islam Campaign
Pamela Geller, the veteran Muslim-basher and co-founder of the rabidly anti-Muslim group Stop Islamization of America (SIOA), has won over a whole new set of supporters: American white supremacists. They just can’t seem to get enough of her since her agitation began against a planned Islamic community center and mosque proposed for a site near Ground Zero in New York City.
Geller has never been shy about her anti-Islamic views. In May, she spent $10,000 for anti-Islam ads to be placed for a month on 40 New York City buses. Among other things, the ads directed Muslims to a website urging them to leave the “falsity of Islam.” But that’s just the start — Geller’s fear-mongering against Muslims seems to know no bounds. “As their numbers and influence grow, they will be attempting a political takeover, and if that doesn’t work, they will turn to further intimidation, murder and terrorism — just as they’ve already proved in dozens of countries around the world,” Geller says of American Muslims. Geller, who once delivered a videotaped anti-Muslim rant while frolicking in the surf in a bikini, is also a “birther” who doesn’t believe President Obama is an American citizen. (Media Matters for America provides comprehensive documentation of Geller’s many anti-Muslim, bigoted and otherwise remarkable statements.)
Geller’s Muslim-bashing has resonated with certain conservatives, several of whom, including former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, have come out against the Muslim community center. But Geller’s views are now also finding support from nearly every sector of America’s racist right. This is rather surprising because Geller is Jewish, a fact that is normally enough to dissuade radical rightists from too tight an embrace. Apparently, Geller is a Jew the racist right can love.
On the oldest and largest white nationalist forum, Stormfont.org, Geller’s anti-Islamic blog posts have been shared on several occasions. In January, for instance, “Thunderbird” posted several links to Geller’s writing and that of another Jewish woman who writes for the anti-immigrant hate site, VDARE.com. “Thunderbird” asked her fellow haters whether these “notorious right wing conservative Jewish bloggers are … on our side on many issues.” A compatriot, “GE Bonaventure” replied, “Jewish Nazi’s, Fascists, right wingers etc. are small in number but they can make sense.”
In May, “skinjob88” (88 is neo-Nazi code for “Heil Hitler”) gave Geller high praise on Stormfront: “In my country and the rest of Europe, [Muslims] are pushing for Islamification, they are killing good White teenagers and raping young White girls, they inter-marry and inter-breed with their family members. Don’t think for one minute the US is safe from Islam.” But the support wasn’t unanimous. One Stormfronter expressed anger that Geller seemed blind to the horrors of non-white races. In April, “Teutonic Beubonic” wrote: “She singles out Muslim immigrants in Europe for their uncivilized animal-like behavior and likeliness to commit crime, yet she refuses to mention anything about blacks or Latinos in the U.S. … Shame on her.”
Over at the Rebellion blog, run by the racist neo-secessionist group League of the South, head blogger “Old Rebel” has more than once expressed support for Geller’s anti-Islamic views. In August, referring to Geller’s protests in New York, the poster said that “[i]f the globalist elite has its way, more Muslims will be colonizing us.” “Anonymous” posted in reply: “Islam comprises much more than a cult. Islam, unlike any other religion I challenge you to name, is a top to bottom political movement that spans government, law, culture and worship practices that, when it achieves hegemony, tolerates no deviation from any of its aspects without severe penalty.”
American Renaissance, a race science outfit whose leader has written that black people are incapable of sustaining civilization, has posted more than one Geller column on its website. This past January, the group featured a Geller piece from The Washington Times that asserted that Muslims were attempting to replace European law with Islamic law. Her message resonated with American Renaissance’s readers. “It won’t be long before Muslims will be voting to end democracy in Europe and replacing it with Islamic law,” wrote one anonymous poster.
Geller’s work has been particularly popular at the National Policy Institute (NPI), a white nationalist organization that calls itself an “advocacy group for America’s historical majority” — white people. NPI has posted repeatedly about the planned New York center and NPI supporters have signed on to Geller’s message that Islam is bad for the U.S. This past month, in a typical comment to NPI’s boards, “bob” wrote: “[W]e need to keep the Muslims from doing what they have done to the UK and many other parts of Europe. … It is unwise to help violent people gradually take over the country and it is not mercy or justice for anyone to let them destroy it.”
The white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens, which has close ties to NPI, couldn’t agree more. The group had this to say on its blog about the planned New York mosque: “This USED TO BE America.”
Perhaps part of the reason that Geller is getting a hearing with these extremists is that she shares more than just their anti-Muslim views. This past April, Geller defended the South African apartheid-defending terrorist Eugene Terre’Blanche after he was found murdered. She blamed his death on “black supremacism.”
“The whites in South Africa are keenly aware of the plans to kill them, better known as ‘The night of the long knives,’” Geller wrote on her blog Atlas Shrugs. “They expect it to happen very soon after the death of Mandela, but to tell this to the world is a waste of energy. Atlas has been reporting on this horror that the savages in the media ignore.”
And Geller has been defending and working with organizations that are blatantly racist and anti-Semitic. This past June, Geller spoke at an event in Paris put on by the Bloc Identitaire, which opposesrace-mixing and “Islamic imperialism.” Geller also is a proud supporter of the English Defence League (EDF), described by Salon.com as “a far-right street movement that sprang up in the United Kingdom earlier this year to protest planned construction of mosques and to stoke fear of Islam more broadly.” According to the Guardian, EDF members have been involved in violent anti-mosque protests, made violent statements that included the threat that an EDF member may one day “murder” any Muslims he can get his hands on, and has engaged in “racism” and “virulent Islamophobia.”
No wonder some of America’s racists have found common cause with Geller, given her support of an apartheid leader and blatantly racist European groups, not to mention her untrammeled Muslim-bashing. And no wonder, too, that Newt Gingrich has just decided to drop out of the upcoming SIOA rally against the planned Muslim community center scheduled for September 11. Pamela Geller may be getting a little too toxic for anyone with claims to be part of the political mainstream, no matter how thin those claims may be stretched.
on August 25th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
I don’t think their lovefest for Geller will last; once she expresses any kind of support for Israel, the stormfronters are gonna leave in droves. Israel is even more toxic to them than Muslims.
on August 25th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Once again the bigots proove that crazy right wingers are a greater threat than Ben Ladem could ever dream of being.
on August 25th, 2010 at 8:06 pm
I am very aware of the EDF, not through the Guardian, but through the website hurryupharry.org which happens to show information about this group in detail.
I am just wondering how many fights and battles the whites of America are trying to start. I was looking at CCTV news today, and there was a dialogue session called “The Lines Between Chimerica and Frenemy.” Apparently the Chinese are angry about all of the military exercises in the region…..
I am also wondering who is next group of minorities in America for whites to target, so far I’ve seen the blacks and latinos, now back to muslims…..
I’d like for Congressman Darrell Issa to address this crowd of ‘angry voters.’ Afterall, he is muslim and republican. Maybe Issa can calm this group of people down.
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:05 am
Geller is an insane fascist and right-wing bigot. She is a disgrace to her Jewish background and should just go ahead and become a NAZI.
on August 26th, 2010 at 11:52 am
Daemonesslisa:
That may be true for some, probably most, white supremacists. It’s certainly true for David Duke (he of the attending-Ahmedinijad’s-Holocaust-denial-conference fame). However, there _are_ some white nationalists and supremacists who have expressed, um, “support” for Israel.
A while ago, I saw a screenshot of two white supremacists having a discussion on Facebook, and one of them said “well, we have to support Israel, where else would we deport all the Jews to?”
This kind of sentiment (people supporting Israel not in spite of, but _because_ of their own anti-Semitic views) does seem to be increasingly common these days.
on August 26th, 2010 at 11:59 am
The fact a few whIte supremacists quote Pamela Geller proves absolutely nothing and amounts to a vulgar slander.
Those same white supremacists quote Churchill, so does that make Sir Winston, nazi battler par excellence, a white supremacist?
Also, some 70% of Americnas ( the figure may be higher in New York City) are, like Ms Geller, against the G.Z. mosque, and so are 70% of Americans therefore white supremacists? And are the latinos, Blacks and moderate Muslims opposing the G.Z. mosque also white supremacists?
I used to admire the SPLC, but I now think you’re far too idelogically blinkered to even grasp some fast-changing realities.
One other question, since when is it ‘racist’ to point out, and the proof for this is ample and irrefutable, that the jokers behind the mosque project are a bunch of supremacist, Far Right, clerical fascists?
Does the SPLC not realise that Fascism as well as the Far Right have NO PARTICULAR SKIN COLOR, AND THAT FAR RIGHT ORGANISATIONS CAN BE COMPOSED ENTIRELY OF NON-WHITES?
And if the SPLC is incapable of detecting the salient points of fascism in a Far Right movmement that just HAPPENS to be composed of non-Whites, then just what good are you?
In other news here in Canada, the authorities in Ottawa just this morning have just arrested three hate-filled individuals who were planning commit acts of mass murder, and would it be too much to point out that, yes, all three were ‘pious Muslims’.
You people are not longer “anti-fascist”, naw you’re just ‘paleo’.
on August 26th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
Let me ask you something though- assuming 70% of Americans actually are against this Mosque(of course it doesn’t matter because the Constitution is not democratic), are they fully aware of the facts? For example, do they realize it’s not a mosque, and it can’t even be seen from Ground Zero? Are they aware that in the US there is something called freedom of religion and private enterprise, which allow people to buy, sell, rent, or let property wherever they want?
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
@Ruslan: It’s far easier to stoke people’s fears and give them an “enemy” to blame for their frustrations than it is to encourage people to see logic or facts. It’s basic propeganda 101 and it’s essentially how Hitler came to power. I’m appalled by how many seemingly intellegent political candidates are using this issue to gain votes. Rick Lazio, running for NYS Governor is a good example. I’m certain that intellectucally he “knows better” but by appealing to people’s base emotions (fear), he is able to motivate them to vote. It’s very scary.
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Deft:
Your post has got to be one of the most ludicrous things I’ve ever read. Calling the SPLC “Paleo”? I doubt Pat Buchanan or James Edwards, both of whom self-identify as paleo, would agree with your claim that the SPLC has anything in common with them. Both men have frequently denounced, and been denounced by, the SPLC.
Also, Imam Rauf is _not_ a fascist or a supremacist; that myth has been repeatedly debunked. Calling him such is borderline libel on your part.
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Since this blog entry in part was about Jews and white gentiles, it got me to thinking . . . . What is the SPLC’s policy on Jewish-American groups which support and fund the expansion of Jewish-only settlements in the occupied territories?
I don’t want to exacerbate or arouse any more ethnic friction than already exists, but I’ll admit when I read the SPLC blog sometimes I do feel that the SPLC is disproportionately targeting white gentiles–even taking into account that white gentiles make up a much larger share of the population than many other ethnic groups. (And despite the fact that I am adamantly opposed to the white separatist movement and ethnic-based hate, it is this perception of the SPLC which in part makes me feel uncomfortable with it–though there are other reasons–for example, believing that immigration won’t effect the environment–over which I have ambivalence about it, as well, I should add.)
Someone like Max Blumenthal: I don’t share his politics, but at least he is someone who is without a doubt equal-opportunity. He criticizes “his people” as much (if not more) than he criticizes political movements dominated by other ethnic groups.
Of course, I’m not saying that every commentator has to be like Blumenthal–to make some negative remark about his or her own fellow ethnics at the same time he or she makes negative remarks about someone/some group from another ethnicity. What’s right here all comes down to context.
The SPLC criticizes groups made up of Americans who are engaged in doing unjust activities with undercurrents of hate or prejudice or simply “my group first” attitudes–right? So, given this context, it would seem reasonable for the SPLC to criticize Jewish-Americans who financially (and through other means) support the expansion of settlements in the occupied territories.
Would the writers at the SPLC ever put such Jewish-American groups in their cross hairs? If so, let’s see it. (I’ve been reading this blog for a while and can’t recall ever seeing this topic brought up.) If not, why not? Would you not be playing favorites? And would this not be ironic, given what your group supposedly stands for? To not criticize Jews who do wrong–or at least to be very cautious and timid–and then, at the same time–to release a full round of fury at whites gentiles who do wrong–is this fair?
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Geller is a Jewish white female racist?? Your story is an object lesson on conspiracy theory linkages used to slander and libel someone you disagree with.
Nice work comrades this is what we used to do in the Soviet Union and totalitarian regimes to silence an opponent.
I can’t wait to read the SPLC piece on hate speech illustrating themselves as proponents of hate.
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
So, does the new arrangement look like: Jewish right wing / White supremacist?
Have the anti-semites suddenly linking with the semites (Jewish part)…For those who may not be aware; Arabs / Muslims are part of the same family tree branch with Jews.
Has this become an issue of race rather than ethnicity? Or are we confusing race with ethnicity?.
Things are getting very interesting.
Mason’s comment is very interesting.
Stay tuned for more…
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
D. S: I believe the SPLC _has_ criticized extremist Jewish groups. The Jewish Defense League (JDL), for example, is on their hate group watch list.
Other similar groups that I think belong on the hate map (although they haven’t been added yet) are Victor Vancier’s Jewish Task Force (JTF), based in New York:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V.....Task_Force
and masada2000, which is California-based:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada2000
Victor Vancier has slimed Nelson Mandela as a “black Nazi”, while posters from masada2000 frequently post “S.H.I.T. lists” of Jewish individuals, such as Woody Allen, whose views they disagree with. These lists frequently include the targets’ addresses and personal information.
Either of these groups would be a good topic for a Hatewatch blog post, in my opinion.
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
First of all the idea of a Jewish person being affected by Nazi propaganda in strange ways isn’t really unheardof. The famous Wehrmacht commander Erich von Manstein(Lewinski) was half Jewish, and even mentioned this several times during his service to the Third Reich. Several other high-ranking Nazis had Jewish heritage once prompting either Goebbels or Goering to famously say “I’ll decide who is Aryan or not.” Slavko Kvaternik, a famous underling of fascist Croatian dictator Ante Pavelic had a Jewish wife, despite the fact that his party helped exterminated Jews in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Jewish talk show host Michael Savage once said, “when I hear the word compassion I take the reach for my Glock.” This is a para-phrase of a famous quote by Hermann Goering, “When I hear culture I take the safety off my Browning.”
There have also been several cases of Neo-Nazi leaders with Jewish roots. What causes this is probably still a subject for debate, but my point is this: Do not be surprised or shocked to find connections between some people of Jewish heritage and white supremacist. There are white supremacist groups like American Renaissance which do not exclude Jews from their “white race.” Several famous academic racists, such as the Bell Curve authors, were also of Jewish descent, and their book is often quoted by white supremacists both anti-Semitic and non-anti-Semitic.
Bottom line is that right-wing reactionaries who are perpetually pissed off will inevitably make alliances and work together from time to time. Also, Jews are neither a “race”, nor are they some kind of collective hive mind controlled by their religious background. People grow up under various conditions and for whatever reason may identify with different groups, ideals, or causes.
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
How refreshing to read intelligent comments.
As an American Muslim, who at one time in my life had been so exposed to Jews and Judaism that I actually considered myself Jewish, I cringe at the hateful rhetoric I read on a daily basis.
I took my kids to the Holocaust museum in Washington DC. The first section we entered was the one documenting Nazi propoganda – how the Jews had been dehumanized and demonized over a period of years leading up to “the final solution”.
I believe that this kind of process of demonization – with increasing intensity over time – is what the conservatives in the US are doing, now, to Muslims. I believe there is an agenda at hand; and I believe that Bin laden will get his clash of civilizations.
The parallels, in fact, are deep because Muslims and Jews have so very much in common. That is why, perhaps, many progressive Jews and Muslims are actually uniting in dialogue accross the country.
on August 26th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
Murtard said,
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Geller is a Jewish white female racist
YOU SAID IT.
on August 26th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
The fact that Pamela Geller is Jewish(?) is besides the point- her willingness to make common cause with white supremacists is a thundering disgrace!!! I have been critical of several prominent American Catholics- the late William F.Buckley, Pat Buchanan, celebrity socialite Paris Hilton(and at times the hierarchy in the US, UK , or Ireland over the handling of the “abuse scandals” despite the fact that they are my co-religionists.
Terry
on August 26th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
PAM GELLERS BOSS INSPIRATION and Professional anti-Muslim bigot Robert Spencer is cashing in a huge paycheck. He makes $132,537 from blogging on his site about muslims and she and others are trying to cash in on the same MONEy TRAIN
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/08/
PLEASE VITSIT
LOONWATCH.COM TO LEARN MORE ABOUT GELLER AND PEOPLE BEHIND THIS….
on August 26th, 2010 at 8:22 pm
Haytham Younis I agree there is an agenda but you give these numskulls they are not thinking in terms of world domination. They don’t have enough brains for that, not that it would enter through the voice of god in their heads in the future. The leaders as we know them are mere figureheads who think they are saving America. When Machiavelli appears from behind the throne the true agenda will be known to all, it can only be hoped for that implosion will happen before then. These spasms of insanity of this type have happened before and have come to sad ends tech makes this different but not much.
on August 26th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
Deft,
I think you are missing the picture entirely. Regardless that they’ve just arrested 3 people in Canada this morning, it is still dangerous politics. This is more than likely a political move to gain seats and power, and to further the ‘war on terror.’ So much so, that these people know what and which buttons to push. Yeah, sure, they have been repeating for the past 10 years that we will have another attack. Don’t you think this will be an opportunity for them to say, ‘yes, we are the party that will keep you safe.’
I like the expression, ‘you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas,’ but more so the way it is said in the Caribbean, ‘you like down with dogs, you wake up smelling like dog sh….’
on August 26th, 2010 at 11:58 pm
To Haytham Younis – You spoke of intelligent comments…well, I must say that your comment was rather brilliant – rational – objective. Thank you for sharing!
on August 27th, 2010 at 7:42 am
The SPLC is no longer up to speed on the new Far Right. Its activists operate under many assumptions that can only be described as “Soft Racism”, and that bias is preventing them from redirecting their focus to groups who represent true hate, a hatred so intense it necessitates the mass murder of as many innocents as possile.
Mayor Bloomberg, an ardent supporter of the G.Z. mosque is a wonderful example of this outlook. Upon hearing of the Times Square bomber, but before knowing his identity, he foolishly blurted out that it was probably some White red-neck with a beef against Obama’s healthcare policies. Imagine such a statement coming from the mayor of a city that has already been the target of multiple Islamist attacks and attempted attacks.
Now, please excuse my “islamophobia”, but had the Times Square bomber succeeded, he would have blown up not just those above ground, but more importantly those in the subway tunnels directly below…his prinicple target it now appears. Such an explosion, seeings the time of day it was, could have killed up to 10,000 people.
The developer of the G.Z. mosque also telephoned a threat to a moderate Canadian Muslim who was opposed to the mosque and who had denounced the project for the bigoted and supremacist gesture it represents. Afterwards he telepohned her to tell her that “Allah had better watch over her”. The Canadian Muslim understood just what a statement like that represented. When that developer was contacted ( he is a VERY close associate of the “moderate” Rauf) he denied ever making the call. However, Mme Reza, the moderate canadian muslim receiving the threat, had saved the number of the caller. Only when pinned down did Rauf’s developer finally admit making the call.
Both he and Rauf are deceitful and dishonest scoundrels.
Their are videos of Rauf in which he lays out his islamist Far Right agenda, and there are also hours and hours of audio tapes in which he expresses his admiration for Far Right sharia law as well as his strategies for surrepticiously promoting it.
The evidence is all there, provded you’re willing to look at and to listen to it.
The stubborn refusal of so-called progressives and leftists to look at that evidence is due to nothing more than “soft Racism”.
The SPLC through its own inadvertance, egoism and lethargy has simply refused to keep up with and to acknowledge what is now a vastly different reality from that of thirty or forty years ago. They’ve lost the plot and have now become the alopogists for Far Right jihadists. In other words, they’ve morphed into the VERY THING they had initally set out to battle and defeat.
on August 27th, 2010 at 8:03 am
I guess if I had such terrible plastic surgery I’d be a raving lunatic too.
on August 27th, 2010 at 8:48 am
all these groups who have historically hated each other are coming together for a common cause. it happens in all cultures. the arabs put it best. “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” they will come to no accords being that the only thing they have in common is blind hatred for something they have inkling about. the true believers will remain just that true believers in an idealogy that has no truth in it and the people just looking for a place to express their frustrations, will get frustrated because they will find that this isn’t the place to vent their anger as it is just a continous cycle of hyperboly and hubris. hence the tea party movement, if you can call it that. there will never be a white america or a mexican america or a black america there will only be one america, the america built by immigrants from all corners of this globe. they can scream until they are blue in the face, and that is how they will be seen as people who hate with blue faces. have a nice day :)
on August 27th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
To Pam Geller, along with others alike,
How dare you try to deter peoples values and
actions from the real work needed here on planet
earth. Our children have a right to inherit a lovable
and livable world. How dare you threaten my
grandchildrens future for a decent and caring and
unpredudice life. j
on August 27th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
There is also growing support for Israel and the likes of Geller for the rightwing group the English Defense League (EDL). It’s laughable really, because this may only prove that the pro Israeli propagandists are really desperate. So much so, that they have aligned themselves with football thugs and out of work skinheads and other reprobates from the inner city areas. Mostly pea-brained hooligans and braindead criminals with the IQ of an average household plant.
I’ve looked at the trouble that most of these hardline ‘Zionists’ like Geller are doing not only are they making themselves look ridiculously imbecilic and retarded, but extremely desperate!
There is a phenomenon known as the ‘Boomerang Effect’ , the more these peddlars of hate spread their hatred, the more it seems to (sadly) backfire. I note with interest that antisemitism is on the rise in Europe, ther are calls by some European groups that the want more open discussion about the holocaust and revision.’ This is thanks due to the likes of Geert Wilders (who is seen as a torchbearer of ‘Free Speech’) – somebody that Geller supports, but doesn’t realise that this is leading the likes of Geller and her ilk into a dark alley. In other words, it may seem clever for these folks to be antagonising Muslims but they are in fact causing more damage to Jews.
It’s dangerous and I feel that this will all backfire in the faces of those who want to create mischief, malice and enmity with another group.
I find it appalling and pretty disgusting that Geller wishes what the Nazis did to her ancestors to do the same to another community. This is one of the most vile of all human conditions.
For over 3000 years the Jews suffered, have those who are causing mischiefe and malice learnt anything from this? Why don’t they question the fact that all of the countries they were living in, eventually ejected them?
I find it surprisng that they didn’t learn anything. Most of the folks I know who are neither Muslim nor Jew, have figured that a lot of the anti Islam hatesites, publications, magazines, articles, broadcasts are being peddled by Zionists.
It wont be long before all of this backfires in the face of Israel.
on August 27th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
This is not surprising in the least – the ideological overlap between far right extremism manifested by anti Semitism and anti black racism and the supremacism of Zionism is a very large one.
on August 28th, 2010 at 8:22 am
“As their numbers and influence grow, they will be attempting a political takeover” sounds exactly what the know nothings said about Catholics in the 1800s. I think those who are opposed to the Muslim Cultural center start researching the rhetoric used (and still being used in some circles) about Catholics.
on August 28th, 2010 at 10:22 pm
Amazing Geller is Jewish. Strange Bed Fellows indeed !
on August 29th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Nuturing compassion for other humans enduring hardship is one of best ways to create peace.
on August 29th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
I don’t think that Pamela’s supporters are only America’s racists .
Many Canadian Muslims & even muslims in Egypt & in Islamic countries did not agree with the location of that Cordoba center.
She is not the only one against it.
I am Canadian & did not know who Pamela was before this issue, I think she is doing good reports & backing it up with documents.
We don’t have to be anti-Islamic when we dislike what is going on & don’t forget all muslim’s terrorists & all Imams are anti-Christian & anti-Jew, why don’t you write something about them ?
on August 29th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Pamela is a Jewish advocate. She has the same opinion about the Mega-Mosque as the Anti-Defamation League. Why doesn’t the SPLC reject anti-semites and pro-jihadists? This is ridiculous. Just another political decision to bash Pamela instead of actually fighting hate.
on August 29th, 2010 at 11:14 pm
Ground Zero Mosque is in fact a Mosque. It includes prayer space. What I would like for all of you people to do is to research the people behind the mosque and find out for yourself what the truth is behind it.
From what I’ve researched and found is that it is in fact a “victory” mosque. Each of the major players have said and denied various things but the gist of it is that the location was deliberately picked for a reason.
Imam Rauf is a radical islamic apologist. if he really wanted to see a revitalization in America of Islam then one of the requirements for that revitilazation is for islam to undergo transformation. The transformation would be much like the one Christianity went through hundreds of years ago. It will never happen and the Imam Rauf himself said he doesn’t think it needs to happen. Sorry but when the religion is homophobic and xenophobic, there HAS to be changes made. When the Religion is causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people every year, there HAS to be changes made.
on August 29th, 2010 at 11:44 pm
CeLo,
Who are the “pro-Jihadists”?
Pamela Geller, Jewish or not, is a racist, bigot, conspiracy theory peddler. That and she looks like she retired from a long career of street-walking.
on August 30th, 2010 at 12:36 am
Your attack on Pamela Geller cannot be a result of an innocent error, or carelessness in learning what she actually believes. Ms. Geller deals with the reality of Islam’s “stealth jihad” in America while the SPLC deals in wishful thinking about Islam. FDR did not hate Germans, he hated totalitarian Nazism. Geller does not hate Muslims, she hates totalitarian Islam. I realize that since she is pro-capitalist and anti-leftist she cannot get a fair hearing from the SPLC — that you would cite Media Matters as a reliable source says everything! As a favor I’m just letting you know that you are making fools of yourselves with these wild distortions, which will end in discrediting not Ms. Geller, but yourselves.
on August 30th, 2010 at 12:48 am
Sorry, but your support for Muslim terrorists and other Islamists who want to destroy our country and impose sharia law is beyond depraved – it is EVIL.
Shame, shame on you vile nut jobs for enabling Islam to take over this country. You’re vilifying a brave JEWISH WOMAN who doesn’t want to be enslaved by this sick woman-hating cult.
How DARE you, you despicable and foul dhimmis. You will deserve your doom under Islamist rule. I am SOOO sick of stupid and ignorant people like you endangering us all to this deranged cult. If you enjoy living under Muslim domination, go live in Saudi Arabia, and stop enabling these cultists to enslave the rest of us.
And stop writing BULLSHIT about good people like Pamela Geller, you sick, terrorist-supporting wretches.
on August 30th, 2010 at 12:49 am
“I don’t think that Pamela’s supporters are only America’s racists .”
Islam isn’t a race. God, what stupid people. I’m so sick of all of you idiots endangering the rest of us with this CULT. NOT a race! PAMELA GELLER IS NOT A RACIST.
Absolute, low IQ morons.
on August 30th, 2010 at 2:16 am
You must really hate Pamela Geller to print false information about her on your website. She is not connected with Stormfront in anyway. As a matter of fact Stormfront hates Pamela Geller because she is Jewish and stands for Isreal. Get your facts straight. If anything, your website should be defending her as a Jew who has had several death threats made against her. Selective in your labeling of who is a hater I see. You are asking your readers to hat Pamela Geller – dismiss her and believe falshoods about her – your site is infact inciting hatred towards Pamela Geller – Super hypocritical on your websites part.
on August 30th, 2010 at 5:23 am
So it’s just about it being too close to Ground Zero huh?
http://www.salon.com/news/opin.....29/mosques
Let me ask you Islamophobes something. Do you EVER feel any kind of discomfort when you continually lie day-in, day-out?
on August 30th, 2010 at 5:29 am
~Geller also writes for Israel National News, a right wing kahanist settler news portal in Israel.
She is a fifth column, she and her fellow fifth columnists, the Israel firsters, should be kicked out or tried for treason
why doesn’t she go to Israel
on August 30th, 2010 at 8:03 am
@Jonah.
Writing for publications based on foreign countries hardly makes one a fifth columnist. Such logic is just a lame rework of the old antisemtitic charge that Jews had a dual loyalties..
IN that respect your opinions are identical to those of Pat Buchannan, the paleo-conservative.
Geller, like Hirsi Ali is fighting the good fight that was once engaged in by leftists. Both are against the mysogyny, chauvinism, racism and antisemitism that is so central to Islam,s world view. Just because people hide their neo-nazis hatreds behind a veneer of religion, those hatreds are no less virulent.
The SPLC can no longer identify and extract the salient points of a facist mindset when the proponents of that hate-filled mindset just HAPPEN to have brown skins.
Simply because the present bearers of the new nazism have brown skins, ( instead of rown shirtsd), critising their nasty, retrograde ideas then becomes racism..
Absolutely priceless!.
The SPLC ‘militants’ are as shallow and as superficial as they come.
on August 30th, 2010 at 8:11 am
It’s always hilarious when right-wing fear-mongers attempt to clothe their phobias in the struggle for “women’s rights”.
on August 30th, 2010 at 9:26 am
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Geller?
Having encountered Pamela Gellers’s form of viciously anti-Muslim sentiments when I appeared with her on CNN and Canadian Television programs earlier this summer, I am not surprised that white supremacists find her to be such a compelling comrade. After all, racism and Islamophobia are tow wings of the same foul bird.
Geller continuously brands American Muslim organizations as the as the undercover agents of Hamas and Al-Queda. I wonder how she, as a Jew, feels about making common cause with the most egregious racists and anti-Semites in the world, simply because they share her hatred of Muslims.
Ibrahim Ramey
Human and Civil Rights Program
Muslim American Society Freedom
on August 30th, 2010 at 10:10 am
It’s always hilarious when right-wing fear-mongers attempt to clothe their phobias in the struggle for “women’s rights”.
No the Islam as repreented by the G.Z. mosque is hell for women. It is also hell for gays and Jews.
And you appear confused as to just what Constitutes “right-wing”
When you do business with islamist clerical fascists, when you cosy up to their misgyny and anti-semitism, then it is YOU who become right-wing, it is YOU who begins to veer off into neo-nazism.
Remember Tareq Ramadan’s famous blooper in which he stated that their ought to be a “moratorium” on stoning women to death wqhen asked whether the practice should be condemned.
Perhaps the SPLC would consider hiring him as a consultant. I mean, were you to wonder just what size of stone should be used for such executions, Tareq would be right there with an answer.
Perhpas the SPLC could also hire the illustrious islamist scholar Qaradawi and consult him on how best to murder gays.
Thinks of the possibilities for left-wing progress.
on August 30th, 2010 at 10:52 am
Please research Hamilton Strategies, LLC and their role in stirring up hatred and brining these screaming bigots into my city.
I can’t believe that I’d ever live to see the day when we’d question other peoples’ freedom to worship according to the dictactes of their conscience.
Who the hell are Hamilton Strategies and just who do they think they are to do this to New York?
on August 30th, 2010 at 11:32 am
I am really shocked by this post and the comments to this post. I thought this website was about freedom and equality of all, but it seems like you are anti-semitic and anti-american. White supremacy and standing up for freedom are two totally different things. By your statements you are clearly pro-islam which shows the mindset of an obvious left wing liberal. Islam means submission and for you to knock someone who is standing up for YOUR/OUR rights of speech, religion, and as women in general. If you want these things taken away keep supporting this so called religion of peace and calling the bad guys good. White supremacy and Islam have more in common because of their hatred of the Jews. I am considering the true ethnics of this website from the emails I keep recieving I am starting to believe you are a pro muslim organization and anti-semitic. This is very anti-american. The pure bias of this post and comments are discouraging.
I encourage thorough study of what Islam is really about, one thing is said in english while a whole different story is being told in arabic. Please do some research on this world threat, before attacking your fellow americans and folk who value the same freedoms as you, they are only trying to stand up for the truth.
on August 30th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Just as anti-Semites claimed all Jews were either plutocrat bankers or Communists, the bigots in here claim that all Muslims are anti-semites or jihadists.
on August 30th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
It is with the greatest regret that my cessation of anonymous donations to SPLC must now be followed by using those same funds to urge others in my community to do the same.
This from a veteran of voter registration work in the south from 1965-68.
This is a smear piece.
You have moved from the good fight against the KKK and Aryan Nation to support of the WRONG SIDE by leaving yourself on the sidelines of Islamic intolerance, especially the quranic racism against which the conscience of most muslims cannot even be voiced.
RE: Andrew Bostom’s great pieces of work and no less than the entire thesis of Tantawi
Your wrongheaded motion has now placed you IN GENERAL by positioning yourselves on the sidelines of canonical Islamic intolerance based on what they MUST consider a perfect document from a perfect being, ON THE SIDE OF INTOLERANCE, HATE and the incitement to violence , as Freedom House has pointed out, taught in 80% of US mosques
A sad sad day for SPLC
on August 30th, 2010 at 10:00 pm
Epam, how many mosques have YOU been in? How many Muslims have you personally been too?
on August 31st, 2010 at 6:15 am
Excuse my early morning typos above. But I’m starting to warm to your efforts against repression of women and anti-semitism. I am curious, what work has Pamela Gellar done to fight for abortion rights and access to birth control? Does she and her crew stand up against the anti-Semitism of Christian Zionists, who believe that Jews will be forced to convert or be destroyed in the coming end times? I would like to know more about her work in these areas, especially on women’s issues like women trafficking and abortion.
on August 31st, 2010 at 8:01 am
@Ruslan Amirkhanov.
That close to 80% of mosques in America are controled by hate-filled extremsts is a well documented fact. IN their boookstores one can find all sorts of hate fill screeds for sale denouncing Gays, Jews, Hindus, Christians and all non-Muslims people ( particularly women) and things in general.
This is the new face of nazism and the SPLC hasn’t a thing to say about it.
As I said above, an organisation with the vocation of monitoring and denouncing neo-Nazis movements, but which does not even have the ability to detect and extract the salient points of Nazism from these New Nazis organisations is not just worthless; it is downright counter-productive.
One more thing, Ruslan, and something that clearly demonstrates how you’ve got it all wrong: “Christian Zionists” AREN’T anti-semites, they are enthusastic supporters of Israel ( hence their name!) and of the right of Jews to live safely in a homeland.
You self-righteously lecture everyone here, and yet you are utterly incapable of EVEN distinguishing between the DIFFERENT ACTORS IN THE DRAMA.
You are a real left-wing HOWLER!
on August 31st, 2010 at 9:03 am
Got some bad news Deft, I’m calling your bluff on that “well documented fact.” It is true that Islam, like Christianity and Judaism(and several other major religions) does not tolerate gays, nor is it completely equitable toward women(nor is western secular society either). But I could find just such type of books in any American evangelical Christian church or bookstore. So what is Gellar doing about that? What is Gellar doing to take on Operation Rescue and other militant anti-abortion organizations? What is she doing to make sure that Christian evangelicals aren’t using our military as a pulpit and harrassing Jews, non-Christians, and even Christians of the “wrong” sect? By all means tell us.
And by the way, Christian Zionists “support” Israel insofar as they believe its existence in necessary in order for Christ to return. When this happens, some portion of the Jews will convert and be saved, while the remainder will perish. Some evangelicals actually put a number on this, somewhere around 1/3 worldwide.
on August 31st, 2010 at 9:26 am
@Ruslan.
Christians who support Israel and who believe the Jews have a right to live afely in their own state are PRO-JEWISH, and not antisemitic.
Pro-Israel Christians can be Evangelical, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or any other denomination.
And they are pro-Israel for no other reason than that they sincerely believe Israel has a right to exist.
No ulterior motives, be they secular, geopolitical or theological are necessary to justify that support.
on August 31st, 2010 at 2:25 pm
If you idiots only knew the havoc that muslims are causing in Europe you wouldn’t be so quick to judge.
God forbid anyone have an opinion that differs from the PCleft.
Who’s fascist now?
on August 31st, 2010 at 2:29 pm
First of all, if all nations have a “right to exist” when are we going to see the re-establishment of the original native nations in the US and Canada, for example? Personally I support the existence of one state in Palestine, with full equal rights for Jews and non-Jews.
And I might add that believing that 1/3 of Jews are going to be damned to hell for refusing to convert(despite the appearance of a giant shiny Jesus with a sword for a tongue) is pretty damned anti-Semitic.
I still notice you haven’t answered my questions though- what work does Gellar do fighting for abortion rights in America, fighting for gay marriage, and so on?
on August 31st, 2010 at 10:19 pm
Yes, Muslims are “wreaking” havoc in Europe, driving taxis, selling Doner kebab, sweeping streets, and doing a number of other essential jobs that Europeans rarely want to do. Thanks to the havoc they wreak in Moscow I can always get excellent food on virtually any major intersection.
on September 1st, 2010 at 7:35 am
Ruslan, you only support the one state solution in Israel so that the Jews can become a minority within their own land. Muslims want to drown them in a sea of Arabs and then subject them to a whole set of dsicriminatory laws just like those the Copts of Egypt are subjected to.
The Muslims who fled India in 47 have been seamlessly integrated into Pakistan. Those Hindus refugees who left Pakistan after partition were integrated into India. Why can’t the Arabs do the same with the “Palestinians”?
The Palestinains aren’t refugees at all. The surrounding Arab states, identical in culture, mores and language, simply refuse to allow them to integrate into their societies. 60% of Jordan is already “Palestinain” so what difference would it make if a ferw more were to be resettled there.
And before we start talking about native Americans etc, when are the Greeks going to be allowed to resettle in Constantinople? When will the Armenians be given Mont Arrarat back? When will the Berbers ( the indigenous people of North Africa) be allowed to teach and use their language? When will the Copts, the indigenous people of Egypt be treated with equality before the law and dignity, the way Native Americans are presently treated?
And as for Geller’s fighting for abortion rights? Well just the other day ( check her website) she reported on a women who was refused a ‘morning after’ pill by her pharmacist because he was a pious Muslims and thought it wrong she should be allowed to abort.
Geller also defends against extreme misogyny of FGM which is subject the SPCL won’t touch with a bargepole becasue those praciticing it are brown skinned, and the SPCL would therefore lay itself open to charges of “racism” and “cultural imperialism” were it to take that on!
In other words, they avoid these subjects out of abject cowardice.
The SPCL is out of touch, ossified and far, FAR behind the times. It limits itself to that bog standard themes of bashing Whites and bashing Christians. It is too comfortable, far too “establishment” and far too complacent to take on the new meance, the new Far Right, like Geller and others are doing. For some, the 60s just never end.
on September 1st, 2010 at 8:06 am
@ruslan
I have been conversing with muslims in the gulf THE MAJORITY OF DAYS since 9/11 very frankly.
VERY FRANKLY.
I have PERSONALLY written letters insisting to senators that a professional colleague from Kashmir live and remain HERE in the USA.
Significantly, this individual STOPPED going to his mosque sometime after 9/11 when the story of the 400 jews who never showed was promulgated by the imam, and he remarked to me he came HERE to “escape the madness”.
Freedom House, the organization which compiled the data on what is TAUGHT is mosques here is not some right wing, xenophobic bunch of freaks. I recommend strongly you check around their site.
You know, the work of THIS ORGANIZATION, SPLC which took out Aryan Nation after violence was the result of what they promulgated and incited is a fine piece of iconic law which should be ruthlessly applied to the boards of directors of ANY RELIGIOUS ORG .. church, mosque, synagogue, Buddhist temple, where violent action (even that from a ‘perfect’ being) is taught (read the Stone and the Tree ..from the life of the model human.. lately?) and violence results.
JCC Seattle? UNC student who ran down others? Nidal Hassan?
But … JDL, MB, CAIR, Baptists, WHO CARES?
The problem as I see it NOT Americans who happen to muslim .. it is their conscience against an immutable founding document which specifies dominion in the way of that perfect being with racist and violent statements from that so called perfect being in a society in which WE usurp that being’s authorities by making up laws right out of our own heads.
That is the salafi position, as many salafis have patiently and kindly explained to me.
And, as we can see from the political structure in Iran, that is the Khomeinist position as well, since the entire reason for the Guardian council is to prevent any wandering outside of that being’s authority
Now if muslims (IMHO) want a way out of that ..some way has to be found that AUTHORITATIVELY refutes the immutable in favor of the individual conscience.
In the 1500′s a process like that unfolded.
Of course anyone who does that is APOSTATE.
Takfir-land
I wish them luck. Seriously.
No go read Judea Pearl who CERTAINLY agrees with those whom the SPLC wants to smear as in league with Stormfront. I wonder if SPLC realizes how alienated they are making themselves.
on September 1st, 2010 at 11:25 am
“Ruslan, you only support the one state solution in Israel so that the Jews can become a minority within their own land.”
Spoken like a Boer in the 1980s, or a Southerner in the post-war South. THEM COLOREDS GONNA OUT-BREED US!!!!
” Muslims want to drown them in a sea of Arabs and then subject them to a whole set of dsicriminatory laws just like those the Copts of Egypt are subjected to.”
Your mind reading skills are incredible! Do you have the ability to predict lottery numbers as well?
“The Muslims who fled India in 47 have been seamlessly integrated into Pakistan. Those Hindus refugees who left Pakistan after partition were integrated into India. Why can’t the Arabs do the same with the “Palestinians”?”
While it is true that Arab states bear a burden of responsibility to the Palestinians, why should they have to? These people lived in Palestine.
“The Palestinains aren’t refugees at all. The surrounding Arab states, identical in culture, mores and language, simply refuse to allow them to integrate into their societies. 60% of Jordan is already “Palestinain” so what difference would it make if a ferw more were to be resettled there.”
Hey there were already a lot of Jews in Poland and Eastern Europe so what difference would it make to settle some more there? See how that works?
“And before we start talking about native Americans etc, when are the Greeks going to be allowed to resettle in Constantinople? When will the Armenians be given Mont Arrarat back? When will the Berbers ( the indigenous people of North Africa) be allowed to teach and use their language? When will the Copts, the indigenous people of Egypt be treated with equality before the law and dignity, the way Native Americans are presently treated?”
A worthy argument but then again, what gives Jews a right to that particular piece of land? What gives ANYONE a “right” to land? Even nation states as we know them are relatively modern inventions.
“And as for Geller’s fighting for abortion rights? Well just the other day ( check her website) she reported on a women who was refused a ‘morning after’ pill by her pharmacist because he was a pious Muslims and thought it wrong she should be allowed to abort.”
There are dozens of similar stories about such refusals by Catholic and evangelical pharmacists. Why report only Muslim ones?
“Geller also defends against extreme misogyny of FGM which is subject the SPCL won’t touch with a bargepole becasue those praciticing it are brown skinned, and the SPCL would therefore lay itself open to charges of “racism” and “cultural imperialism” were it to take that on!”
FGM? Oh and I saw your little race-baiting in there. Stick around and you’ll see that the SPLC does indeed report on hate-groups run by those “brown skinned” people you’re so worried about. My question is though- WHAT ABOUT White protestant Christian evangelicals- the historic and leading edge of misogyny and homophobia in America?
” It limits itself to that bog standard themes of bashing Whites and bashing Christians.”
Careful, you’re revealing your true colors there.
” It is too comfortable, far too “establishment” and far too complacent to take on the new meance, the new Far Right, like Geller and others are doing. For some, the 60s just never end.”
Ah yes, some time in the 60s that whole racism problem was totally fixed and now “those people” are just going too far!!!
on September 1st, 2010 at 11:28 am
Epam, the story of Jews not going to work was picked up by numerous non-Muslim conspiracy theorists. The claim that the Pentagon was struck by a missile came from a Frenchman. Other anti-American conspiracy theories on 9-11 originate in places like Russia or Western Europe, not to mention among Americans themselves(Loose Change anybody?).
Moreover, I would not trust “Freedom House” as far as I could throw the damn thing, regardless of the topic they speak on. If this is true what they say about all these mosques, perhaps the US should stop kissing up to Saudi Arabia and giving money to various dictatorships in Arab countries. Moreover, did it occur to you that many Muslims flee those countries because they want to get away from that rhetoric?
Besides, I didn’t ask you about mosques in Saudi Arabia, I asked you about those in the USA.
on September 1st, 2010 at 12:18 pm
One more thing Mr. Stoddard…I mean, Deft. Since you speak about Palestinians out-breeding Jews in Israel(you know there are Christian Palestinians too right?), how do you feel about various movements in Europe, America, and other countries which demand “Country X for Ethnicity X”, I mean various hardcore anti-immigrant groups and what-not which see themselves as being in a racial struggle and being out-bred by immigrants or a local ethnic minority?
on September 1st, 2010 at 12:53 pm
@ruslan …you are totally disjointed.
The story of the 4000 is the clear product of racism, and to deny it’s source is obtuse in the extreme.
I was speaking about mosques RIGHT HERE. And my colleague DID flee, and found it RIGHT HERE. In LITERALLY middle america. That’s what I am talking about, and ironically in your confusion you have highlighted this, and avoided the real issues.
Loose change is the a ridiculous brainchild of morons who believe in conspiracy first. Sorry. I believe in science.
It’s called Occam.
You are proving by your arguments and what you regard as fact precisely what demographic the SPLC now falls upon.
As Michael Kay would say…
SEEYA
on September 1st, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Is this the document epaminodas is referring to? http://www.freedomhouse.org/te.....;report=45 It only talks about Saudi propaganda distributed in the US. Apparently epam just made up the part about this information being taught in 80% of US mosques. Since, according to Deft and epam, this is a “well documented fact,” perhaps one of them would be kind enough to provide a bit of documentation. I would be particularly interested in seeing where it is that “Freedom House has pointed out…HATE and the incitement to violence…taught in 80% of US mosques.” I guess one lesson here is that raving the way epam does makes it difficult for anyone to claim he has lied or slandered someone since it is not at all clear that he has made a single coherent statement. To accuse Freedom House as he seems to have done is certainly much worse slander than anything anyone has said about Pam Geller except perhaps for Ruslan’s comment that she “she looks like she retired from a long career of street-walking” but then I haven’t looked at a photo so perhaps that isn’t slanderous at all. I don’t think SPLC monitors hate speech by foreign governments but if they ever start I think the Freedom House report, if it can be verified, would provide ample evidence to put the Saudi government on the list of hate groups
on September 1st, 2010 at 6:28 pm
Toni, who is standing up for our freedoms? Who is the enemy that is going to take they away, Muslims? yes, I am just waiting anyday now for Muslims to inflict Sharia law on us and turn the country into an islamic theocracy. Are you people truly this retarded? Seriously?
I am a pro white advocate. I find it beyond ridiculous that conservatives speak as if Muslims are the greatest threat this country faces. Compared to other peoples in this country, they are a minor problem. I also find it amusing that conservatives have no problem collectively judging muslims and then will turn around and call me and people like me a hater for talking about blacks, jews,etc. as a group. hypocrities with no balls whatsoever.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 5:01 am
One thing our dishonest conservative opponents appear to be attempting here is making it seem as though they are actually fighting anti-Semitism, supporting women’s rights, abortion, gay rights, etc. In other words all the things they spend most of their time screaming about whenever they aren’t talking about Muslims. And the “left” on the other hand is supposedly being hypocritical by standing up for Muslims in general.
In fact there is no conflict here. Leftists in general are against scapegoating, sweeping generalizations, fear-mongering, and xenophobia. We can disagree with the tenets of Islam in general and strongly disagree with the beliefs of radicals(just as most Muslims disagree with them), while at the same time pointing out that they have equal rights under the law. It is also worth noting that those issues we do have with Islamic, Christian, Jewish, and other religious belief systems are FAR better solved by open, friendly dialogue in an environment of secularism as opposed to lies and demonizing.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 8:33 am
http://www.freedomhouse.org/up.....ort/45.pdf
Enjoy
The problem is that this is JUST ONE report.
MORE…
In 1999 Hisham Kabbani the leader of Naqshbandi Sufis, testified before a State Department open forum that eighty percent of American mosques had extremist leadership.
Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.....ite_note-3
Is anyone going to argue we are LESS hated now?
@Mitch Beales, I recommend remedial reading, the purpose of that entire paper is a warning that this is not some Saudi propaganda, it is that Saudi teaching materials are the TEXTSBOOKS and PERMEATE american mosques where arguments made to CHILDREN, just like in sunday school and hebrew school end up with people believing, AS THE PERFECT IMMUTABLE QURAN argues jews are the sons of apes and pigs, and as the MANY PEW POLLS SHOW, the result of that kind teaching is pure disaster.
I’m sorry that your feelings argue you into a position where these facts are so abhorrent you must make them into some kind of slander to protest you from objectivfe reality
But that changes nothing.
Have you read Stephen Schwartz?
Efraim Karsh?
Bat Ye’or?
Matthew Leavitt?
Ibn Warraq?
Tariq Ramadan?
Andrew Bostom?
Said?
And Ruslan, secular?
” It is also worth noting that those issues we do have with Islamic, Christian, Jewish, and other religious belief systems are FAR better solved by open, friendly dialogue in an environment of secularism as opposed to lies and demonizing.”
The secular hold sovereignty over the Quran?
Secular decisions by humans using a mortal’s rationality supercede the authority of the Quran?
on September 2nd, 2010 at 9:19 am
Uh oh…someone’s having a little breakdown. Get the thorazine!!!
Let’s see about this guy:
Shaykh Kabbani recently came into conflict with various Muslim groups including the Islamic Society of North America, CAIR and ICNA after he stated that 80 percent of mosques are being run by “extremist ideologies”. [4] Muslim organizations harshly responded, stating that Shaykh Kabbani’s remarks “could have a profoundly negative impact on ordinary American Muslims.” [5] Kabbani plunged into further controversy when he accused Muslims who advise the United States about Islam as being “extremists themselves”. [5] When asked during a conference whether he would name the Islamic groups he believed were “extremist”, Kabbani answered, “after the program”. [5] When subsequently confronted with the question during the end of the discussion, Kabbani refused to answer. [5] In a joint statement pertaining to Kabbani’s accusations, several Muslim groups noted that “Mr. Kabbani has put the entire American Muslim community under unjustified suspicion. In effect, Mr. Kabbani is telling government officials that the majority of American Muslims pose a danger to our society.” [5]
Ok so it sounds like ‘he said she said’, but since Kabbani is a Sunni Muslim, I must wonder why you choose to believe him and not others.
And Bat Ye’or is a complete fraud I’m sorry to say.
http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/.....d-eurabia/
on September 2nd, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Epaminondas thanks for the links. I did not read through the 95 pages of the Freedom House report. It doesn’t take 95 pages to convince me that the Saudi monarchy is wretched and up to no good in the world. Salient points that caught my attention included the fact that the report was the result of concerns expressed by American Muslims and the fact that the survey of American mosques sampled “more than a dozen” which appears to be <1% of mosques in the USA. I do not doubt that hate literature is distributed by many mosques just as it is by many other religious institutions. The existence of this report and the fact that it was Muslims who brought the problem to the attention of the authors seems to me to argue against folks like Pam Geller who would paint all Muslims with a single brush.
I can't claim to have read the list of authors you mention but thanks to your post I have at least investigated them and gotten a small sample of their ideas. Most seem reasonable enough, scholarly, and concerned about the quite mad behaviors and ideas that some believe are justified or required by a document written more than a millennium ago. Their reasoned and scholarly approach distinguishes them from the paranoid, hate-filled, rantings of Pam Geller and Bat Ye'or. You seem fairly astute and I'm surprised that you don't see the difference.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 12:46 pm
Sorry Ruslan
I know Bat Yeor personally. You are out of your mind.
Do you know what her husband does?
And BTW you avoided the most important issue..
” It is also worth noting that those issues we do have with Islamic, Christian, Jewish, and other religious belief systems are FAR better solved by open, friendly dialogue in an environment of secularism as opposed to lies and demonizing.”
The secular hold sovereignty over the Quran?
Secular decisions by humans using a mortal’s rationality supercede the authority of the Quran?
The answer to that question is the ball game.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 2:05 pm
@Michael .. let’s, for argument’s sake flip your argument around … perhaps we can say that Pam and Robert (and I would include Robert’s book in the list there) are informed by the authors (and others such as Bernard Lewis) and present their arguments more stridently and with less leeway for different interpretations of what Islam is. My friends in the Persian Gulf inform me there is only ONE, which is what these authors, I think would say as well.
If truly moronic racists such as those from Stormfront find a common area with Pamela in stopping for instance, the Muslim Brotherhood, of which HAMAS is a branch btw, and CAIR in the USA .. to infer from that this weakens the idea that stopping the brotherhood in the USA is a bad thing, that is simply wrong … just as the KKK endorsed Reagan 1980 and he told them to shove it … it is UNFORTUNATE, but that’s all. More, while I might disagree with some of the choices of acceptable allies, I also remember whose side is proper by who is the threat to constitutional values, and it is NOT Pam or Robert.
We have just seen today that CAIR, which is the Brotherhood, and remains an un-indicted co conspirator in terror has accused the Tea party and the republican party of being BEHIND the anti muslim incidents in the USA, and they mention Pam and Robert by name. The SPLC, I believe has by this article helped to give cover to an organization whose leaders have made no bones about their goals.
FDR chose Somoza. It did not make him bad. It did not make his side wrong. It was an unpleasant and incorrect choice for an ally, and not one I would have made, but FDR achieved an awful lot.
I am on the same side as Pam and Robert. I do not accept Vlaams Belang, or the EDL, but I make NO MISTAKE about the goals.
No one disputes, to bring this back to square one, the right of ANYONE to build, a mosque a temple or any other structure, but 1) That does not make it wise 2)That does not change that salafists will receive the message sent by Rauf (who IS ONE)
It is in order to stop 2 that Pam and Robert have acted. It is exceedingly unpleasant. It is also a compulsory effort.
Americans who happen to be muslim can do a marvelous thing and decide to move it .. 4 blocks, 6 blocks, it almost doesn’t matter.
That they cannot argues in the extreme that the location is the message to those inimical to our values who mean us real harm, especially since it should be obvious that any chance this is a meaningful community center containing a mosque is dead, and this will be a magnet for real protests and protests by TRULY unpleasant morons
on September 2nd, 2010 at 2:37 pm
Do you know what her husband does?
The secular hold sovereignty over the Quran?
Secular decisions by humans using a mortal’s rationality supercede the authority of the Quran?
Your login makes clear your love of all things Theban. If we answer your riddles correctly will you destroy yourself?
on September 2nd, 2010 at 2:53 pm
@Mitch ..question intended for Ruslan.
The entire idea that laws made up by people, that they are sovereign is a basic idea we accept. And nothing we seek to change. It’s why Roe v Wade exists despite the allegation by some that god thinks it’s murder. However, ….. just as we brook no religious insistence on faith that this be abrogated, so it is compulsory on all religions that the secular be supreme and the people acknowledged as sovereign.
The name is indicated for world’s first neocon. Who freed all helots, slaves of 400 years, leaving fortified democratic cities in his wake, wielder of preventive war, and best of all – destroyer of Sparta by maneuver, rather than battle, and excessive death.
As for Bat Yeor’s husband .. I don;t normally use wikipedia but it’s a good jumping off point…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.....historian)
It is unlikely in the extreme that such an individual is married to some horrible person. And their efforts together make LOONWATCH a rather ridiculous source to use, and one whose result should be to question the validity and credibility of arguments so made.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Strident arguments and presenting shades of gray as black and white are inimical to democracy. As Ruslan has pointed out (I believe in this thread) there are plenty of people opposing the construction of mosques, Islamic community centers, etc. around the country including, closest to my home, in Naperville, IL. There is no “sacred ground” close to that one as far as I know. Skinnyminny commented above that those who lie down with dogs get up smelling like dogsh– which is only one reason I hold my nose at the “strident” arguments of Geller and her ilk.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 3:24 pm
No doubt, then Churchill, FDR, Truman, Ike, JFK, are all scratching.
I am not talking about any other mosque.
Do you really want to paint so broad a brush as to void any local arguments?
Isn’t that PRECISELY what you accusing others of?
Perhaps you should consider THIS:
Judea Pearl …
I have been trying hard to find an explanation for the intense controversy surrounding the Cordoba Initiative, whereby 71 percent of Americans object to the proposed project of building a mosque next to Ground Zero.
I cannot agree with the theory that such broad resistance represents Islamophobic sentiments, nor that it is a product of a “rightwing” smear campaign against one imam or another.
Americans are neither bigots nor gullible.
Deep sensitivity to the families of 9/11 victims was cited as yet another explanation, but this too does not answer the core question.
If one accepts that the 19 fanatics who flew planes into the Twin Towers were merely self-proclaimed Muslims who, by their very act, proved themselves incapable of acting in the name of “true Islam,” then building a mosque at Ground Zero should evoke no emotion whatsoever; it should not be viewed differently than, say, building a church, a community center or a druid shrine.
A more realistic explanation is that most Americans do not buy the 19 fanatics story, but view the the 9/11 assault as a product of an anti- American ideology that, for good and bad reasons, has found a fertile breeding ground in the hearts and minds of many Muslim youngsters who see their Muslim identity inextricably tied with this anti-American ideology.
THE GROUND Zero mosque is being equated with that ideology. Public objection to the mosque thus represents a vote of no confidence in mainstream American Muslim leadership which, on the one hand, refuses to acknowledge the alarming dimension that anti-Americanism has taken in their community and, paradoxically, blames America for its creation.
The American Muslim leadership has had nine years to build up trust by taking proactive steps against the spread of anti-American terror-breeding ideologies, here and abroad.
Evidently, however, a sizable segment of the American public is not convinced that this leadership is doing an effective job of confidence building.
In public, Muslim spokespersons praise America as the best country for Muslims to live and practice their faith. But in sermons, speeches, rallies, classrooms, conferences and books sold at those conferences, the narrative is often different. There, Noam Chomsky’s conspiracy theory is the dominant paradigm, and America’s foreign policy is one long chain of “crimes” against humanity, especially against Muslims.
Affirmation of these conspiratorial theories sends mixed messages to young Muslims, engendering anger and helplessness: America and Israel are the first to be blamed for Muslim failings, sufferings and violence.
Terrorist acts, whenever condemned, are immediately “contextually explicated” (to quote Tariq Ramadan); spiritual legitimizers of suicide bombings (e.g. Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi of Qatar) are revered beyond criticism; Hamas and Hizbullah are permanently shielded from the label of “terrorist.”
Overall, the message that emerges from this discourse is implicit, but can hardly be missed: When Muslim grievance is at question, America is the culprit and violence is justified, if not obligatory.
True, we have not helped Muslims in the confidence-building process. Treating homegrown terror acts as isolated incidents of psychological disturbances while denying their ideological roots has given American Muslim leaders the illusion that they can achieve public acceptance without engaging in serious introspection and responsibility sharing for allowing victimhood, anger and entitlement to spawn such acts.
The construction of the Ground Zero mosque would further prolong this illusion.
If I were New York’s Mayor Michael Bloomberg, I would reassert Muslims’ right to build the Islamic center and the mosque, but I would expend the same energy, not one iota less, in trying to convince them to put it somewhere else, or replace it with a community-managed all-faiths center in honor of the 9/11 victims.
Fellow Muslim Americans will benefit more from co-ownership of consensual projects than sole ownership of confrontational ones.
The writer is a professor at UCLA and president of the Daniel Pearl Foundation, named after his son. He is a coeditor of I Am Jewish: Personal Reflections Inspired by the Last Words of Daniel Pearl (Jewish Light, 2004), winner of the National Jewish Book Award.
…………………
While his language seems gentler, in fact he is making the same argument Pam and Robert have made.
That I am making.
Just think about what the man is saying.
A pity no 100,000 person march making Bin Laden, the Ikwhan, and the Khomeinists the opponent and religious enemy of americans who happen to be muslim has occurred.
Or that Hisham Kabbani was alone in his warnings about what is here.
It’s been informative, but not as informative as the arabs and iranians who informed me over the years, secure at home, and anonymous in their ability to speak quite freely, and argue freely. Very patiently at times. So freely was the back and forth it stopped suddenly for about a year. And the problem was not at this end.
Before all that, I HAD NO OPINION ABOUT THIS STUFF. But if fired me to read all I could get my hands on.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 4:37 pm
Thanks epam. I actually did a bit of research on David Littman and, while his rhetoric certainly does not sink to the level of ranting he appears, like each of us, to have some “blind spots” regarding certain issues. (Should we really hold Israel or the USA responsible for the charter of the party in power?) Luckily all of us are better than each of us and so, as you say, “laws made up by people, that they are sovereign is a basic idea we accept..”
It is sad but true that good people who believe passionately in justice sometimes go well beyond reason in its defense. I certainly don’t believe for a minute that Bat Ye’or is “some horrible person,” but the little I have seen of her anti-Islam rhetoric suggests that she has indeed gone well beyond reason.
I haven’t noticed any posts in this thread that in any way support the irrational authority of an ancient document. (Personally I suspect that, as Blake said of its Hebrew counterpart “avarice and chastity did shite it.”) I suspect that most who have posted here would defend the right of any fool who wished to claim such irrational authority to make an ass of himself. Most of us also defend our right to point out that, like Geller, they have done so.
on September 13th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
daemonesslisa said,
on August 25th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
“I don’t think their lovefest for Geller will last; once she expresses any kind of support for Israel, the stormfronters are gonna leave in droves. Israel is even more toxic to them than Muslims.”
The stormfronters are fringers without any significant power and barely even exist “in droves.” American and Israeli imperialism do far more harm to Muslims and the “Third World” than any goofy net-nazis. The latter, by the way, have remarkably little to do with the original Nazis, who were German national chauvinists rather than largely American “white nationalist” fringers and tended to *support* the Zionist project.
For those who really want to learn, as opposed to (ahem) L.E.A.R.N., about the nature of authoritarianism, radical and antigovernment are not necessarily dirty words. Of course you’ll never hear that from “anti-racists” who are in bed with the Zionists and the pigs.
on September 24th, 2010 at 12:46 am
There are alot of misunderstandings and false statements about islam out in the media. This is leading to a fear and hate towards muslims. I am a white American muslim convert. If you do more than read a few anti-islamic blogs or cherry-picked scripture, you will at least come to understand that Islam is not evil and violent. Please feel free to talk to me and get to know a muslim.
on February 20th, 2011 at 8:37 am
Pamela Geller is one of the most talented and courageous women on earth. Her fight against islamism is righteous. But the Left has found a ally in Islam. Geller exposes this unholy alliance. So Geller is the enemy. So she is demonised. But let there be no doubt: the treacherous Left and Islam will be defeated, just like communism and fascism some time ago. You have still the chance to change sides, to step on the right side…
Kafir Harby
(Al Kafir Al Mohareb (the infidel warrior))