The Hatewatch blog is managed by the staff of the Intelligence Project of the Southern Poverty Law Center, an Alabama-based civil rights organization.

White Supremacists Find Common Cause with Pam Geller’s Anti-Islam Campaign

By Heidi Beirich on August 25, 2010 - 12:45 pm, Posted in Anti-Muslim

Pamela Geller, the veteran Muslim-basher and co-founder of the rabidly anti-Muslim group Stop Islamization of America (SIOA), has won over a whole new set of supporters: American white supremacists. They just can’t seem to get enough of her since her agitation began against a planned Islamic community center and mosque proposed for a site near Ground Zero in New York City.

Geller has never been shy about her anti-Islamic views. In May, she spent $10,000 for anti-Islam ads to be placed for a month on 40 New York City buses. Among other things, the ads directed Muslims to a website urging them to leave the “falsity of Islam.” But that’s just the start — Geller’s fear-mongering against Muslims seems to know no bounds.  “As their numbers and influence grow, they will be attempting a political takeover, and if that doesn’t work, they will turn to further intimidation, murder and terrorism — just as they’ve already proved in dozens of countries around the world,” Geller says of American Muslims. Geller, who once delivered a videotaped anti-Muslim rant while frolicking in the surf in a bikini, is also a “birther” who doesn’t believe President Obama is an American citizen. (Media Matters for America provides comprehensive documentation of Geller’s many anti-Muslim, bigoted and otherwise remarkable statements.)

Geller’s Muslim-bashing has resonated with certain conservatives, several of whom, including former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, have come out against the Muslim community center. But Geller’s views are now also finding support from nearly every sector of America’s racist right. This is rather surprising because Geller is Jewish, a fact that is normally enough to dissuade radical rightists from too tight an embrace. Apparently, Geller is a Jew the racist right can love.

On the oldest and largest white nationalist forum, Stormfont.org, Geller’s anti-Islamic blog posts have been shared on several occasions. In January, for instance, “Thunderbird” posted several links to Geller’s writing and that of another Jewish woman who writes for the anti-immigrant hate site, VDARE.com. “Thunderbird” asked her fellow haters whether these “notorious right wing conservative Jewish bloggers are … on our side on many issues.” A compatriot, “GE Bonaventure” replied, “Jewish Nazi’s, Fascists, right wingers etc. are small in number but they can make sense.”

In May, “skinjob88” (88 is neo-Nazi code for “Heil Hitler”) gave Geller high praise on Stormfront: “In my country and the rest of Europe, [Muslims] are pushing for Islamification, they are killing good White teenagers and raping young White girls, they inter-marry and inter-breed with their family members. Don’t think for one minute the US is safe from Islam.” But the support wasn’t unanimous. One Stormfronter expressed anger that Geller seemed blind to the horrors of non-white races. In April, “Teutonic Beubonic” wrote: “She singles out Muslim immigrants in Europe for their uncivilized animal-like behavior and likeliness to commit crime, yet she refuses to mention anything about blacks or Latinos in the U.S. … Shame on her.”

Over at the Rebellion blog, run by the racist neo-secessionist group League of the South, head blogger “Old Rebel” has more than once expressed support for Geller’s anti-Islamic views. In August, referring to Geller’s protests in New York, the poster said that “[i]f the globalist elite has its way, more Muslims will be colonizing us.” “Anonymous” posted in reply: “Islam comprises much more than a cult. Islam, unlike any other religion I challenge you to name, is a top to bottom political movement that spans government, law, culture and worship practices that, when it achieves hegemony, tolerates no deviation from any of its aspects without severe penalty.”

American Renaissance, a race science outfit whose leader has written that black people are incapable of sustaining civilization, has posted more than one Geller column on its website. This past January, the group featured a Geller piece from The Washington Times that asserted that Muslims were attempting to replace European law with Islamic law. Her message resonated with American Renaissance’s readers. “It won’t be long before Muslims will be voting to end democracy in Europe and replacing it with Islamic law,” wrote one anonymous poster.

Geller’s work has been particularly popular at the National Policy Institute (NPI), a white nationalist organization that calls itself an “advocacy group for America’s historical majority” — white people. NPI has posted repeatedly about the planned New York center and NPI supporters have signed on to Geller’s message that Islam is bad for the U.S. This past month, in a typical comment to NPI’s boards, “bob” wrote: “[W]e need to keep the Muslims from doing what they have done to the UK and many other parts of Europe. … It is unwise to help violent people gradually take over the country and it is not mercy or justice for anyone to let them destroy it.”

The white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens, which has close ties to NPI, couldn’t agree more. The group had this to say on its blog about the planned New York mosque: “This USED TO BE America.”

Perhaps part of the reason that Geller is getting a hearing with these extremists is that she shares more than just their anti-Muslim views. This past April, Geller defended the South African apartheid-defending terrorist Eugene Terre’Blanche after he was found murdered. She blamed his death on “black supremacism.”

“The whites in South Africa are keenly aware of the plans to kill them, better known as ‘The night of the long knives,’” Geller wrote on her blog Atlas Shrugs. “They expect it to happen very soon after the death of Mandela, but to tell this to the world is a waste of energy. Atlas has been reporting on this horror that the savages in the media ignore.”

And Geller has been defending and working with organizations that are blatantly racist and anti-Semitic. This past June, Geller spoke at an event in Paris put on by the Bloc Identitaire, which opposesrace-mixing and “Islamic imperialism.” Geller also is a proud supporter of the English Defence League (EDF), described by Salon.com as “a far-right street movement that sprang up in the United Kingdom earlier this year to protest planned construction of mosques and to stoke fear of Islam more broadly.” According to the Guardian, EDF members have been involved in violent anti-mosque protests, made violent statements that included the threat that an EDF member may one day “murder” any Muslims he can get his hands on, and has engaged in “racism” and “virulent Islamophobia.”

No wonder some of America’s racists have found common cause with Geller, given her support of an apartheid leader and blatantly racist European groups, not to mention her untrammeled Muslim-bashing. And no wonder, too, that Newt Gingrich has just decided to drop out of the upcoming SIOA rally against the planned Muslim community center scheduled for September 11. Pamela Geller may be getting a little too toxic for anyone with claims to be part of the political mainstream, no matter how thin those claims may be stretched.

  • http://kafirharby.blogspot.com/ Kafir Harby

    Pamela Geller is one of the most talented and courageous women on earth. Her fight against islamism is righteous. But the Left has found a ally in Islam. Geller exposes this unholy alliance. So Geller is the enemy. So she is demonised. But let there be no doubt: the treacherous Left and Islam will be defeated, just like communism and fascism some time ago. You have still the chance to change sides, to step on the right side…

    Kafir Harby
    (Al Kafir Al Mohareb (the infidel warrior))

  • Zach

    There are alot of misunderstandings and false statements about islam out in the media. This is leading to a fear and hate towards muslims. I am a white American muslim convert. If you do more than read a few anti-islamic blogs or cherry-picked scripture, you will at least come to understand that Islam is not evil and violent. Please feel free to talk to me and get to know a muslim.

  • moonbat

    daemonesslisa said,

    on August 25th, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    “I don’t think their lovefest for Geller will last; once she expresses any kind of support for Israel, the stormfronters are gonna leave in droves. Israel is even more toxic to them than Muslims.”

    The stormfronters are fringers without any significant power and barely even exist “in droves.” American and Israeli imperialism do far more harm to Muslims and the “Third World” than any goofy net-nazis. The latter, by the way, have remarkably little to do with the original Nazis, who were German national chauvinists rather than largely American “white nationalist” fringers and tended to *support* the Zionist project.

    For those who really want to learn, as opposed to (ahem) L.E.A.R.N., about the nature of authoritarianism, radical and antigovernment are not necessarily dirty words. Of course you’ll never hear that from “anti-racists” who are in bed with the Zionists and the pigs.

  • Mitch Beales

    Thanks epam. I actually did a bit of research on David Littman and, while his rhetoric certainly does not sink to the level of ranting he appears, like each of us, to have some “blind spots” regarding certain issues. (Should we really hold Israel or the USA responsible for the charter of the party in power?) Luckily all of us are better than each of us and so, as you say, “laws made up by people, that they are sovereign is a basic idea we accept..”

    It is sad but true that good people who believe passionately in justice sometimes go well beyond reason in its defense. I certainly don’t believe for a minute that Bat Ye’or is “some horrible person,” but the little I have seen of her anti-Islam rhetoric suggests that she has indeed gone well beyond reason.

    I haven’t noticed any posts in this thread that in any way support the irrational authority of an ancient document. (Personally I suspect that, as Blake said of its Hebrew counterpart “avarice and chastity did shite it.”) I suspect that most who have posted here would defend the right of any fool who wished to claim such irrational authority to make an ass of himself. Most of us also defend our right to point out that, like Geller, they have done so.

  • http://vwt.d2g.com:8081 epaminondas

    No doubt, then Churchill, FDR, Truman, Ike, JFK, are all scratching.

    I am not talking about any other mosque.

    Do you really want to paint so broad a brush as to void any local arguments?

    Isn’t that PRECISELY what you accusing others of?

    Perhaps you should consider THIS:

    Judea Pearl …
    I have been trying hard to find an explanation for the intense controversy surrounding the Cordoba Initiative, whereby 71 percent of Americans object to the proposed project of building a mosque next to Ground Zero.

    I cannot agree with the theory that such broad resistance represents Islamophobic sentiments, nor that it is a product of a “rightwing” smear campaign against one imam or another.

    Americans are neither bigots nor gullible.

    Deep sensitivity to the families of 9/11 victims was cited as yet another explanation, but this too does not answer the core question.

    If one accepts that the 19 fanatics who flew planes into the Twin Towers were merely self-proclaimed Muslims who, by their very act, proved themselves incapable of acting in the name of “true Islam,” then building a mosque at Ground Zero should evoke no emotion whatsoever; it should not be viewed differently than, say, building a church, a community center or a druid shrine.

    A more realistic explanation is that most Americans do not buy the 19 fanatics story, but view the the 9/11 assault as a product of an anti- American ideology that, for good and bad reasons, has found a fertile breeding ground in the hearts and minds of many Muslim youngsters who see their Muslim identity inextricably tied with this anti-American ideology.

    THE GROUND Zero mosque is being equated with that ideology. Public objection to the mosque thus represents a vote of no confidence in mainstream American Muslim leadership which, on the one hand, refuses to acknowledge the alarming dimension that anti-Americanism has taken in their community and, paradoxically, blames America for its creation.

    The American Muslim leadership has had nine years to build up trust by taking proactive steps against the spread of anti-American terror-breeding ideologies, here and abroad.

    Evidently, however, a sizable segment of the American public is not convinced that this leadership is doing an effective job of confidence building.

    In public, Muslim spokespersons praise America as the best country for Muslims to live and practice their faith. But in sermons, speeches, rallies, classrooms, conferences and books sold at those conferences, the narrative is often different. There, Noam Chomsky’s conspiracy theory is the dominant paradigm, and America’s foreign policy is one long chain of “crimes” against humanity, especially against Muslims.

    Affirmation of these conspiratorial theories sends mixed messages to young Muslims, engendering anger and helplessness: America and Israel are the first to be blamed for Muslim failings, sufferings and violence.

    Terrorist acts, whenever condemned, are immediately “contextually explicated” (to quote Tariq Ramadan); spiritual legitimizers of suicide bombings (e.g. Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi of Qatar) are revered beyond criticism; Hamas and Hizbullah are permanently shielded from the label of “terrorist.”

    Overall, the message that emerges from this discourse is implicit, but can hardly be missed: When Muslim grievance is at question, America is the culprit and violence is justified, if not obligatory.

    True, we have not helped Muslims in the confidence-building process. Treating homegrown terror acts as isolated incidents of psychological disturbances while denying their ideological roots has given American Muslim leaders the illusion that they can achieve public acceptance without engaging in serious introspection and responsibility sharing for allowing victimhood, anger and entitlement to spawn such acts.

    The construction of the Ground Zero mosque would further prolong this illusion.

    If I were New York’s Mayor Michael Bloomberg, I would reassert Muslims’ right to build the Islamic center and the mosque, but I would expend the same energy, not one iota less, in trying to convince them to put it somewhere else, or replace it with a community-managed all-faiths center in honor of the 9/11 victims.
    Fellow Muslim Americans will benefit more from co-ownership of consensual projects than sole ownership of confrontational ones.

    The writer is a professor at UCLA and president of the Daniel Pearl Foundation, named after his son. He is a coeditor of I Am Jewish: Personal Reflections Inspired by the Last Words of Daniel Pearl (Jewish Light, 2004), winner of the National Jewish Book Award.

    …………………

    While his language seems gentler, in fact he is making the same argument Pam and Robert have made.
    That I am making.

    Just think about what the man is saying.

    A pity no 100,000 person march making Bin Laden, the Ikwhan, and the Khomeinists the opponent and religious enemy of americans who happen to be muslim has occurred.

    Or that Hisham Kabbani was alone in his warnings about what is here.

    It’s been informative, but not as informative as the arabs and iranians who informed me over the years, secure at home, and anonymous in their ability to speak quite freely, and argue freely. Very patiently at times. So freely was the back and forth it stopped suddenly for about a year. And the problem was not at this end.

    Before all that, I HAD NO OPINION ABOUT THIS STUFF. But if fired me to read all I could get my hands on.

  • Mitch Beales

    Strident arguments and presenting shades of gray as black and white are inimical to democracy. As Ruslan has pointed out (I believe in this thread) there are plenty of people opposing the construction of mosques, Islamic community centers, etc. around the country including, closest to my home, in Naperville, IL. There is no “sacred ground” close to that one as far as I know. Skinnyminny commented above that those who lie down with dogs get up smelling like dogsh– which is only one reason I hold my nose at the “strident” arguments of Geller and her ilk.

  • epaminondas

    @Mitch ..question intended for Ruslan.

    The entire idea that laws made up by people, that they are sovereign is a basic idea we accept. And nothing we seek to change. It’s why Roe v Wade exists despite the allegation by some that god thinks it’s murder. However, ….. just as we brook no religious insistence on faith that this be abrogated, so it is compulsory on all religions that the secular be supreme and the people acknowledged as sovereign.

    The name is indicated for world’s first neocon. Who freed all helots, slaves of 400 years, leaving fortified democratic cities in his wake, wielder of preventive war, and best of all – destroyer of Sparta by maneuver, rather than battle, and excessive death.

    As for Bat Yeor’s husband .. I don;t normally use wikipedia but it’s a good jumping off point…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.....historian)

    It is unlikely in the extreme that such an individual is married to some horrible person. And their efforts together make LOONWATCH a rather ridiculous source to use, and one whose result should be to question the validity and credibility of arguments so made.

  • Mitch Beales

    Do you know what her husband does?
    The secular hold sovereignty over the Quran?
    Secular decisions by humans using a mortal’s rationality supercede the authority of the Quran?

    Your login makes clear your love of all things Theban. If we answer your riddles correctly will you destroy yourself?

  • epaminondas

    @Michael .. let’s, for argument’s sake flip your argument around … perhaps we can say that Pam and Robert (and I would include Robert’s book in the list there) are informed by the authors (and others such as Bernard Lewis) and present their arguments more stridently and with less leeway for different interpretations of what Islam is. My friends in the Persian Gulf inform me there is only ONE, which is what these authors, I think would say as well.

    If truly moronic racists such as those from Stormfront find a common area with Pamela in stopping for instance, the Muslim Brotherhood, of which HAMAS is a branch btw, and CAIR in the USA .. to infer from that this weakens the idea that stopping the brotherhood in the USA is a bad thing, that is simply wrong … just as the KKK endorsed Reagan 1980 and he told them to shove it … it is UNFORTUNATE, but that’s all. More, while I might disagree with some of the choices of acceptable allies, I also remember whose side is proper by who is the threat to constitutional values, and it is NOT Pam or Robert.

    We have just seen today that CAIR, which is the Brotherhood, and remains an un-indicted co conspirator in terror has accused the Tea party and the republican party of being BEHIND the anti muslim incidents in the USA, and they mention Pam and Robert by name. The SPLC, I believe has by this article helped to give cover to an organization whose leaders have made no bones about their goals.

    FDR chose Somoza. It did not make him bad. It did not make his side wrong. It was an unpleasant and incorrect choice for an ally, and not one I would have made, but FDR achieved an awful lot.

    I am on the same side as Pam and Robert. I do not accept Vlaams Belang, or the EDL, but I make NO MISTAKE about the goals.

    No one disputes, to bring this back to square one, the right of ANYONE to build, a mosque a temple or any other structure, but 1) That does not make it wise 2)That does not change that salafists will receive the message sent by Rauf (who IS ONE)

    It is in order to stop 2 that Pam and Robert have acted. It is exceedingly unpleasant. It is also a compulsory effort.

    Americans who happen to be muslim can do a marvelous thing and decide to move it .. 4 blocks, 6 blocks, it almost doesn’t matter.

    That they cannot argues in the extreme that the location is the message to those inimical to our values who mean us real harm, especially since it should be obvious that any chance this is a meaningful community center containing a mosque is dead, and this will be a magnet for real protests and protests by TRULY unpleasant morons

  • http://vwt.d2g.com:8081 epaminondas

    Sorry Ruslan

    I know Bat Yeor personally. You are out of your mind.

    Do you know what her husband does?

    And BTW you avoided the most important issue..

    ” It is also worth noting that those issues we do have with Islamic, Christian, Jewish, and other religious belief systems are FAR better solved by open, friendly dialogue in an environment of secularism as opposed to lies and demonizing.”

    The secular hold sovereignty over the Quran?
    Secular decisions by humans using a mortal’s rationality supercede the authority of the Quran?

    The answer to that question is the ball game.

  • Mitch Beales

    Epaminondas thanks for the links. I did not read through the 95 pages of the Freedom House report. It doesn’t take 95 pages to convince me that the Saudi monarchy is wretched and up to no good in the world. Salient points that caught my attention included the fact that the report was the result of concerns expressed by American Muslims and the fact that the survey of American mosques sampled “more than a dozen” which appears to be <1% of mosques in the USA. I do not doubt that hate literature is distributed by many mosques just as it is by many other religious institutions. The existence of this report and the fact that it was Muslims who brought the problem to the attention of the authors seems to me to argue against folks like Pam Geller who would paint all Muslims with a single brush.

    I can't claim to have read the list of authors you mention but thanks to your post I have at least investigated them and gotten a small sample of their ideas. Most seem reasonable enough, scholarly, and concerned about the quite mad behaviors and ideas that some believe are justified or required by a document written more than a millennium ago. Their reasoned and scholarly approach distinguishes them from the paranoid, hate-filled, rantings of Pam Geller and Bat Ye'or. You seem fairly astute and I'm surprised that you don't see the difference.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Uh oh…someone’s having a little breakdown. Get the thorazine!!!

    Let’s see about this guy:

    Shaykh Kabbani recently came into conflict with various Muslim groups including the Islamic Society of North America, CAIR and ICNA after he stated that 80 percent of mosques are being run by “extremist ideologies”. [4] Muslim organizations harshly responded, stating that Shaykh Kabbani’s remarks “could have a profoundly negative impact on ordinary American Muslims.” [5] Kabbani plunged into further controversy when he accused Muslims who advise the United States about Islam as being “extremists themselves”. [5] When asked during a conference whether he would name the Islamic groups he believed were “extremist”, Kabbani answered, “after the program”. [5] When subsequently confronted with the question during the end of the discussion, Kabbani refused to answer. [5] In a joint statement pertaining to Kabbani’s accusations, several Muslim groups noted that “Mr. Kabbani has put the entire American Muslim community under unjustified suspicion. In effect, Mr. Kabbani is telling government officials that the majority of American Muslims pose a danger to our society.” [5]

    Ok so it sounds like ‘he said she said’, but since Kabbani is a Sunni Muslim, I must wonder why you choose to believe him and not others.

    And Bat Ye’or is a complete fraud I’m sorry to say.

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/.....d-eurabia/

  • epaminondas

    http://www.freedomhouse.org/up.....ort/45.pdf

    Enjoy

    The problem is that this is JUST ONE report.

    MORE…

    In 1999 Hisham Kabbani the leader of Naqshbandi Sufis, testified before a State Department open forum that eighty percent of American mosques had extremist leadership.

    Here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.....ite_note-3

    Is anyone going to argue we are LESS hated now?

    @Mitch Beales, I recommend remedial reading, the purpose of that entire paper is a warning that this is not some Saudi propaganda, it is that Saudi teaching materials are the TEXTSBOOKS and PERMEATE american mosques where arguments made to CHILDREN, just like in sunday school and hebrew school end up with people believing, AS THE PERFECT IMMUTABLE QURAN argues jews are the sons of apes and pigs, and as the MANY PEW POLLS SHOW, the result of that kind teaching is pure disaster.

    I’m sorry that your feelings argue you into a position where these facts are so abhorrent you must make them into some kind of slander to protest you from objectivfe reality

    But that changes nothing.

    Have you read Stephen Schwartz?
    Efraim Karsh?
    Bat Ye’or?
    Matthew Leavitt?
    Ibn Warraq?
    Tariq Ramadan?
    Andrew Bostom?
    Said?

    And Ruslan, secular?

    ” It is also worth noting that those issues we do have with Islamic, Christian, Jewish, and other religious belief systems are FAR better solved by open, friendly dialogue in an environment of secularism as opposed to lies and demonizing.”

    The secular hold sovereignty over the Quran?
    Secular decisions by humans using a mortal’s rationality supercede the authority of the Quran?

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    One thing our dishonest conservative opponents appear to be attempting here is making it seem as though they are actually fighting anti-Semitism, supporting women’s rights, abortion, gay rights, etc. In other words all the things they spend most of their time screaming about whenever they aren’t talking about Muslims. And the “left” on the other hand is supposedly being hypocritical by standing up for Muslims in general.

    In fact there is no conflict here. Leftists in general are against scapegoating, sweeping generalizations, fear-mongering, and xenophobia. We can disagree with the tenets of Islam in general and strongly disagree with the beliefs of radicals(just as most Muslims disagree with them), while at the same time pointing out that they have equal rights under the law. It is also worth noting that those issues we do have with Islamic, Christian, Jewish, and other religious belief systems are FAR better solved by open, friendly dialogue in an environment of secularism as opposed to lies and demonizing.

  • Carrie

    Toni, who is standing up for our freedoms? Who is the enemy that is going to take they away, Muslims? yes, I am just waiting anyday now for Muslims to inflict Sharia law on us and turn the country into an islamic theocracy. Are you people truly this retarded? Seriously?

    I am a pro white advocate. I find it beyond ridiculous that conservatives speak as if Muslims are the greatest threat this country faces. Compared to other peoples in this country, they are a minor problem. I also find it amusing that conservatives have no problem collectively judging muslims and then will turn around and call me and people like me a hater for talking about blacks, jews,etc. as a group. hypocrities with no balls whatsoever.

  • Mitch Beales

    Is this the document epaminodas is referring to? http://www.freedomhouse.org/te.....;report=45 It only talks about Saudi propaganda distributed in the US. Apparently epam just made up the part about this information being taught in 80% of US mosques. Since, according to Deft and epam, this is a “well documented fact,” perhaps one of them would be kind enough to provide a bit of documentation. I would be particularly interested in seeing where it is that “Freedom House has pointed out…HATE and the incitement to violence…taught in 80% of US mosques.” I guess one lesson here is that raving the way epam does makes it difficult for anyone to claim he has lied or slandered someone since it is not at all clear that he has made a single coherent statement. To accuse Freedom House as he seems to have done is certainly much worse slander than anything anyone has said about Pam Geller except perhaps for Ruslan’s comment that she “she looks like she retired from a long career of street-walking” but then I haven’t looked at a photo so perhaps that isn’t slanderous at all. I don’t think SPLC monitors hate speech by foreign governments but if they ever start I think the Freedom House report, if it can be verified, would provide ample evidence to put the Saudi government on the list of hate groups

  • epaminondas

    @ruslan …you are totally disjointed.

    The story of the 4000 is the clear product of racism, and to deny it’s source is obtuse in the extreme.

    I was speaking about mosques RIGHT HERE. And my colleague DID flee, and found it RIGHT HERE. In LITERALLY middle america. That’s what I am talking about, and ironically in your confusion you have highlighted this, and avoided the real issues.

    Loose change is the a ridiculous brainchild of morons who believe in conspiracy first. Sorry. I believe in science.
    It’s called Occam.

    You are proving by your arguments and what you regard as fact precisely what demographic the SPLC now falls upon.

    As Michael Kay would say…

    SEEYA

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    One more thing Mr. Stoddard…I mean, Deft. Since you speak about Palestinians out-breeding Jews in Israel(you know there are Christian Palestinians too right?), how do you feel about various movements in Europe, America, and other countries which demand “Country X for Ethnicity X”, I mean various hardcore anti-immigrant groups and what-not which see themselves as being in a racial struggle and being out-bred by immigrants or a local ethnic minority?

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Epam, the story of Jews not going to work was picked up by numerous non-Muslim conspiracy theorists. The claim that the Pentagon was struck by a missile came from a Frenchman. Other anti-American conspiracy theories on 9-11 originate in places like Russia or Western Europe, not to mention among Americans themselves(Loose Change anybody?).

    Moreover, I would not trust “Freedom House” as far as I could throw the damn thing, regardless of the topic they speak on. If this is true what they say about all these mosques, perhaps the US should stop kissing up to Saudi Arabia and giving money to various dictatorships in Arab countries. Moreover, did it occur to you that many Muslims flee those countries because they want to get away from that rhetoric?

    Besides, I didn’t ask you about mosques in Saudi Arabia, I asked you about those in the USA.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    “Ruslan, you only support the one state solution in Israel so that the Jews can become a minority within their own land.”

    Spoken like a Boer in the 1980s, or a Southerner in the post-war South. THEM COLOREDS GONNA OUT-BREED US!!!!

    ” Muslims want to drown them in a sea of Arabs and then subject them to a whole set of dsicriminatory laws just like those the Copts of Egypt are subjected to.”

    Your mind reading skills are incredible! Do you have the ability to predict lottery numbers as well?

    “The Muslims who fled India in 47 have been seamlessly integrated into Pakistan. Those Hindus refugees who left Pakistan after partition were integrated into India. Why can’t the Arabs do the same with the “Palestinians”?”

    While it is true that Arab states bear a burden of responsibility to the Palestinians, why should they have to? These people lived in Palestine.

    “The Palestinains aren’t refugees at all. The surrounding Arab states, identical in culture, mores and language, simply refuse to allow them to integrate into their societies. 60% of Jordan is already “Palestinain” so what difference would it make if a ferw more were to be resettled there.”

    Hey there were already a lot of Jews in Poland and Eastern Europe so what difference would it make to settle some more there? See how that works?

    “And before we start talking about native Americans etc, when are the Greeks going to be allowed to resettle in Constantinople? When will the Armenians be given Mont Arrarat back? When will the Berbers ( the indigenous people of North Africa) be allowed to teach and use their language? When will the Copts, the indigenous people of Egypt be treated with equality before the law and dignity, the way Native Americans are presently treated?”

    A worthy argument but then again, what gives Jews a right to that particular piece of land? What gives ANYONE a “right” to land? Even nation states as we know them are relatively modern inventions.

    “And as for Geller’s fighting for abortion rights? Well just the other day ( check her website) she reported on a women who was refused a ‘morning after’ pill by her pharmacist because he was a pious Muslims and thought it wrong she should be allowed to abort.”

    There are dozens of similar stories about such refusals by Catholic and evangelical pharmacists. Why report only Muslim ones?

    “Geller also defends against extreme misogyny of FGM which is subject the SPCL won’t touch with a bargepole becasue those praciticing it are brown skinned, and the SPCL would therefore lay itself open to charges of “racism” and “cultural imperialism” were it to take that on!”

    FGM? Oh and I saw your little race-baiting in there. Stick around and you’ll see that the SPLC does indeed report on hate-groups run by those “brown skinned” people you’re so worried about. My question is though- WHAT ABOUT White protestant Christian evangelicals- the historic and leading edge of misogyny and homophobia in America?

    ” It limits itself to that bog standard themes of bashing Whites and bashing Christians.”

    Careful, you’re revealing your true colors there.

    ” It is too comfortable, far too “establishment” and far too complacent to take on the new meance, the new Far Right, like Geller and others are doing. For some, the 60s just never end.”

    Ah yes, some time in the 60s that whole racism problem was totally fixed and now “those people” are just going too far!!!

  • http://vwt.d2g.com:8081 epaminondas

    @ruslan
    I have been conversing with muslims in the gulf THE MAJORITY OF DAYS since 9/11 very frankly.
    VERY FRANKLY.

    I have PERSONALLY written letters insisting to senators that a professional colleague from Kashmir live and remain HERE in the USA.

    Significantly, this individual STOPPED going to his mosque sometime after 9/11 when the story of the 400 jews who never showed was promulgated by the imam, and he remarked to me he came HERE to “escape the madness”.

    Freedom House, the organization which compiled the data on what is TAUGHT is mosques here is not some right wing, xenophobic bunch of freaks. I recommend strongly you check around their site.

    You know, the work of THIS ORGANIZATION, SPLC which took out Aryan Nation after violence was the result of what they promulgated and incited is a fine piece of iconic law which should be ruthlessly applied to the boards of directors of ANY RELIGIOUS ORG .. church, mosque, synagogue, Buddhist temple, where violent action (even that from a ‘perfect’ being) is taught (read the Stone and the Tree ..from the life of the model human.. lately?) and violence results.

    JCC Seattle? UNC student who ran down others? Nidal Hassan?

    But … JDL, MB, CAIR, Baptists, WHO CARES?

    The problem as I see it NOT Americans who happen to muslim .. it is their conscience against an immutable founding document which specifies dominion in the way of that perfect being with racist and violent statements from that so called perfect being in a society in which WE usurp that being’s authorities by making up laws right out of our own heads.

    That is the salafi position, as many salafis have patiently and kindly explained to me.

    And, as we can see from the political structure in Iran, that is the Khomeinist position as well, since the entire reason for the Guardian council is to prevent any wandering outside of that being’s authority

    Now if muslims (IMHO) want a way out of that ..some way has to be found that AUTHORITATIVELY refutes the immutable in favor of the individual conscience.

    In the 1500′s a process like that unfolded.

    Of course anyone who does that is APOSTATE.
    Takfir-land

    I wish them luck. Seriously.

    No go read Judea Pearl who CERTAINLY agrees with those whom the SPLC wants to smear as in league with Stormfront. I wonder if SPLC realizes how alienated they are making themselves.

  • Deft

    Ruslan, you only support the one state solution in Israel so that the Jews can become a minority within their own land. Muslims want to drown them in a sea of Arabs and then subject them to a whole set of dsicriminatory laws just like those the Copts of Egypt are subjected to.

    The Muslims who fled India in 47 have been seamlessly integrated into Pakistan. Those Hindus refugees who left Pakistan after partition were integrated into India. Why can’t the Arabs do the same with the “Palestinians”?

    The Palestinains aren’t refugees at all. The surrounding Arab states, identical in culture, mores and language, simply refuse to allow them to integrate into their societies. 60% of Jordan is already “Palestinain” so what difference would it make if a ferw more were to be resettled there.

    And before we start talking about native Americans etc, when are the Greeks going to be allowed to resettle in Constantinople? When will the Armenians be given Mont Arrarat back? When will the Berbers ( the indigenous people of North Africa) be allowed to teach and use their language? When will the Copts, the indigenous people of Egypt be treated with equality before the law and dignity, the way Native Americans are presently treated?

    And as for Geller’s fighting for abortion rights? Well just the other day ( check her website) she reported on a women who was refused a ‘morning after’ pill by her pharmacist because he was a pious Muslims and thought it wrong she should be allowed to abort.

    Geller also defends against extreme misogyny of FGM which is subject the SPCL won’t touch with a bargepole becasue those praciticing it are brown skinned, and the SPCL would therefore lay itself open to charges of “racism” and “cultural imperialism” were it to take that on!

    In other words, they avoid these subjects out of abject cowardice.

    The SPCL is out of touch, ossified and far, FAR behind the times. It limits itself to that bog standard themes of bashing Whites and bashing Christians. It is too comfortable, far too “establishment” and far too complacent to take on the new meance, the new Far Right, like Geller and others are doing. For some, the 60s just never end.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Yes, Muslims are “wreaking” havoc in Europe, driving taxis, selling Doner kebab, sweeping streets, and doing a number of other essential jobs that Europeans rarely want to do. Thanks to the havoc they wreak in Moscow I can always get excellent food on virtually any major intersection.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    First of all, if all nations have a “right to exist” when are we going to see the re-establishment of the original native nations in the US and Canada, for example? Personally I support the existence of one state in Palestine, with full equal rights for Jews and non-Jews.

    And I might add that believing that 1/3 of Jews are going to be damned to hell for refusing to convert(despite the appearance of a giant shiny Jesus with a sword for a tongue) is pretty damned anti-Semitic.

    I still notice you haven’t answered my questions though- what work does Gellar do fighting for abortion rights in America, fighting for gay marriage, and so on?

  • urlikeHitlerlol

    If you idiots only knew the havoc that muslims are causing in Europe you wouldn’t be so quick to judge.
    God forbid anyone have an opinion that differs from the PCleft.

    Who’s fascist now?

  • Deft

    @Ruslan.

    Christians who support Israel and who believe the Jews have a right to live afely in their own state are PRO-JEWISH, and not antisemitic.

    Pro-Israel Christians can be Evangelical, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or any other denomination.

    And they are pro-Israel for no other reason than that they sincerely believe Israel has a right to exist.

    No ulterior motives, be they secular, geopolitical or theological are necessary to justify that support.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Got some bad news Deft, I’m calling your bluff on that “well documented fact.” It is true that Islam, like Christianity and Judaism(and several other major religions) does not tolerate gays, nor is it completely equitable toward women(nor is western secular society either). But I could find just such type of books in any American evangelical Christian church or bookstore. So what is Gellar doing about that? What is Gellar doing to take on Operation Rescue and other militant anti-abortion organizations? What is she doing to make sure that Christian evangelicals aren’t using our military as a pulpit and harrassing Jews, non-Christians, and even Christians of the “wrong” sect? By all means tell us.

    And by the way, Christian Zionists “support” Israel insofar as they believe its existence in necessary in order for Christ to return. When this happens, some portion of the Jews will convert and be saved, while the remainder will perish. Some evangelicals actually put a number on this, somewhere around 1/3 worldwide.

  • Deft

    @Ruslan Amirkhanov.

    That close to 80% of mosques in America are controled by hate-filled extremsts is a well documented fact. IN their boookstores one can find all sorts of hate fill screeds for sale denouncing Gays, Jews, Hindus, Christians and all non-Muslims people ( particularly women) and things in general.

    This is the new face of nazism and the SPLC hasn’t a thing to say about it.

    As I said above, an organisation with the vocation of monitoring and denouncing neo-Nazis movements, but which does not even have the ability to detect and extract the salient points of Nazism from these New Nazis organisations is not just worthless; it is downright counter-productive.

    One more thing, Ruslan, and something that clearly demonstrates how you’ve got it all wrong: “Christian Zionists” AREN’T anti-semites, they are enthusastic supporters of Israel ( hence their name!) and of the right of Jews to live safely in a homeland.

    You self-righteously lecture everyone here, and yet you are utterly incapable of EVEN distinguishing between the DIFFERENT ACTORS IN THE DRAMA.

    You are a real left-wing HOWLER!