Hatewatch Tweets
Hatewatch is managed by the staff of the Intelligence Report, an investigative magazine published by the Alabama-based civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center.
Wave of Hate Crimes Directed at Muslims Breaks Out
A string of attacks against Muslims and their religious centers has broken out over the past few weeks, apparently inspired by the protests in New York City over the planned Muslim community center and mosque near where the 9/11 attacks took place. Leaders of those protests have repeatedly made hateful statements against Muslims and Islam, with the National Republican Trust Political Action Committee, for example, saying the center is meant “to celebrate [the] murder of 3,000 Americans.”
The apparent resurgence of anti-Muslim hate crimes followed a long decline that began after a major outbreak in the immediate aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center (more below).
The most violent of these attacks took place on Tuesday in New York City, when 21-year-old film student Michael Enright allegedly attacked a cab driver. Police said that Enright cursed out the cabby after asking him if he was Muslim and then slashed his throat and stabbed him in several places when he answered in the affirmative. Enright was charged with hate crimes on Wednesday.
In California also on Tuesday, Imam Abdullah Salem arrived at the Madera Islamic Center to find two menacing signs, one of which read, “Wake up America, the enemy is here.” It was the latest in a recent string of attacks on the center, including a brick thrown at the building on Sunday and a sign posted the prior week that read, “No temple for the God of terrorism at Ground Zero.”
Yesterday evening, a drunk man entered a Queens mosque, shouting anti-Muslim slurs while urinating on prayer rugs, according to the New York Post. The man, identified by police as Omar Rivera, also allegedly shouted slurs, calling the worshippers “terrorists.”
These incidents are just the latest in a series of anti-Muslim attacks that have taken place over the course of the past year. On May 12, a Muslim community center was firebombed while filled with people. Approximately 60 worshipers were at The Islamic Center of Northeast Florida in Jacksonville when a pipe bomb went off around 9:35 p.m. It caused a small fire in the back of the building, but no one was injured. The FBI released surveillance video of what appeared to be a middle-aged white man carrying a gasoline container in the area of the bombing. Investigators believe he is connected to the attack. Another surveillance video was released that showed a different man who entered the mosque April 4 and shouted anti-Islam epithets. Neither man has been found.
FBI national hate crime statistics for years showed very little anti-Muslim hate crime violence. In 1995, the first year for complete FBI hate crime statistics, there were 29 anti-Muslim hate crimes recorded; that stayed about level through 2000, when there were 28. But in 2001, the 9/11 attacks spurred a 17-fold growth in hate crimes to 481, according to the FBI. At least three people and as many as eight were murdered in anti-Muslim attacks in the months immediately after the attacks, according to press reports. At around the same time, however, President Bush gave an important speech, saying Islam was not the enemy, and hate crimes the following year, 2002, dropped to 155. That number essentially declined slowly until 2008, when there were 105 anti-Muslim hate crimes recorded. Those are the latest statistics available.
The FBI statistics are known to severely understate the total number of hate crimes. According to a Department of Justice study, the real level of reported and unreported hate crimes is between 20 and 30 times higher than the numbers that are published. However, the trends the numbers show are believed to be accurate.
For more on recent anti-Muslim violence, read our recent round up in the Intelligence Report.
on August 26th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
I’m sure that all of this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the whipping up of hatred for the non-Ground Zero non-Mosque!!
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
What hateful sick Americans. Besides being totally disgusted over their actions, I am embarrassed. What come around, goes around.
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
The proposal is for a community center not a mosque, there are already three mosques near the WTC site. It seems that the ‘mosque problem’ is an opportunity for crazies to whip up anger and hatred in the community and beyond. That matters not because the First Amendment is for everyone, not everyone but the Muslims.
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
Frankly if I were a Muslim I wont stoke the fire.there are somethings that you best leave so that time will heal.My suggestion as a Christian from a Muslim country is that the Mosque idea be shelfed.It was a very good idea if it was mooted before 9/11.Now its a bit too late and too ealy to take steps to correct Muslims about their behavior. There very few religions that kill their own as well but I think Muslims should postpone the good gensture.Maybe concentrate on getting Saudia Arabia to allow women to drive…
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
In Malaysia a Muslim country there is racial discrimination.They dont want other religions although Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity were there for centuries.Same with Indonesia, they dont allow Churches and make it difficult for Christians-infact in malaysia, they burn Churches.
Now why does not the Muslim population in NY open up at another site and take those governments to task.I dont see any Muslims coming out and condemning Mulsims from, killing civilians. If the building of a silly building is going to cause trouble, why then build it-doesnt Islam seek Mulsim to be tolerant.We outside the USA have to put up with blaring Mosques 5 times a day and cant say a word, although we have been generations in Mulsim countries trying to practice our faith.Mulsims must yield to the greater population’s sentiments-Be a good Muslim and postpone this troublemaking idea!
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
Are they putting something in the water? Is that HAARP thing making people go crazy? What is going on here?
The blogs are FULL of incredibly vile hate speech from the Right on the Muslim Cultural Center building.
Including stated intent to blow it up or burn it down.
Of course, if they do that, they’re no better than terrorists.
What happened to the US? Don’t we believe in the First Amendment anymore?
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
I teach ESL to adults, and my star pupil is a Muslim man from West Africa, who has become a dearly cherished family friend. His second daughter was born on September 11th of last year. I remember thinking at that time, “How wonderful! Now we can have some other reason to mark that day – one that is happy, and life affirming.” While I am not for a moment suggesting we forget the nightmarish events of WTC in September of 2001, the birth of a new generation of youngsters – Islamic, Christian, Jewish, reminds us that there is work to be done, to secure a future for all children, and to hold as our goal: tolerance. Moreover, let those events teach us, guide us, showing us what we must NEVER become..a nation of haters. We were saddened and sickened by the ugly attack on the Islamic taxi driver Ahmed Sharif. We send our prayerful healing wishes and support to his family. I sincerely hope that once Mr. Sharif’s physical wounds have healed, he and his family may see that many of NY friends and neighbors – who embrace diverse faiths and philosophies were appalled as well!
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Wonder who this anti-Muslim Islamophobia is really aimed at?
on August 26th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
Sad…….. So many trying to replace the Bill of Rights with their own version of a Bill of Self-Rightousness,
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:03 pm
Fox “News” is whipping up this hatred…and their second largest owner is a Saudi prince who owns Muslim TV stations. How convenient. Whip up a frenzy to increase your bubba audience here, then show the videos to increase their Arab audience there.
Rupert and his Prince friend are playing both sides of this dangerous game. Rupert owns part of those Muslim TV stations now too, probably a stock swap or something.
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
“And the breeding-ground of all these tragedies is prejudice: prejudice of race and nation, of religion, of political opinion; and the root cause of prejudice is blind imitation of the past — imitation in religion, in racial attitudes, in national bias, in politics. So long as this aping of the past persisteth, just so long will the foundations of the social order be blown to the four winds, just so long will humanity be continually exposed to direst peril.” (Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 246)
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
muslims,mexicans,blacks (especially black presidents),gays and the list goes on….who’s next on the white rights hysterical hate hit list?the republican/tea party has done a great job of demonizing and scapegoating people of color in this country to rally the white vote in there favor and hitler would have been proud of there bs propaganda.race relations in this country have been set back to the 1920′s and it is disgraceful.the white right is just set on dividing the nation along racial lines with whites on top calling the shots and any people that they don’t like” just be quiet and accept your second class citizen status” just like the twenties…this country is headed for dire times if there racist ,instigating rhetoric continues.i believe in freedom of speech but they are abusing it,when it becomes an instigating tool of tyranny to cause harm to someone who does not look or worship as you do that freedom of speech is no longer being used in the responsible and civilized manner in which it was intended.
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
My Rep. Dan Lungren is against the community center, prayer room because of “sensitivity.” He, however, voted against helping the First Responders with their health care. Is this hypocrisy? I am sure his answer would be “can’t afford it” yet, he voted time and again for war funding–the Iraq war built on lies.
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
Vincent, maybe they didn’t tell you when you arrived in America, but religion is constitutionally protected. The owners of that building are free to lease it to whomever they want, and anyone with the money to do so can lease it.
The state of women in Saudi Arabia, is 100% irrelevant to the debate. Saudi Arabia itself is irrelevant. So is Malaysia, for the benefit of that other poster. What Muslims or Christians or Hindus do outside of America is the business of people in those countries. The US has this little thing called the Constitution and the transaction we are discussing is protected by that document.
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
I am probalby what you consider extremley conservative but I feel so bad for these Musliums. From what I understand conservatives are people who champion religious liberty while liberals are the ones who attempt to eliminate religion from the public square. This doesn’t seem to be the case here.
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Strange isn’t it? The most hate crimes in the U.S. for the past decade have been directed toward Christian Mexicans.
Damn, white folks just because we are brown does not mean we are middle eastern muslims, but yet we got blamed for what these terrorists did (are doing, have done). But don’t worry, as payback, we’ll be leading the US before the 22nd Century;)
Here we go again, more hate crimes means we need tougher hate crime legislation.
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Ah, can you people smell the political season this year? Come on people, this hatred is nothing new and it will become far worse before good people start taking a stand against this nonsense vitroil and violent hatred by the US News Media. I can’t believe Fox News is owned by a Saudi Prince as the 2nd largest shareholder with president Jew Rulph Murdoch, which is so responsible for the hateful propoganda which intices others to act so violenty and even commit murder toward other groups (whether it’s based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender etc).
on August 26th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Everything that’s been going on in NYC is nothing but a shameful example of what happens when people refuse education.
IT.IS.NOT.A.MOSQUE!
I swear, no matter what proof you give these people that the place isn’t a mosque, it’s like talking to a f’ing wall!
–”You know that place isn’t a mosque, right?”
–”It’s a mosque”
–”There are actually other mosques around the WTC site, so why are you going after this place which actually isn’t a mosque?”
–”It’s a mosque”
–”How is it a mosque?”
–”It’s a mosque”
–”But there’s only one floor of that entire building designated for any kind of prayer…the rest is a standard community center”
–”It’s a mosque”
–”I could ask you just about anything, huh?”
–It’s a mosque”
(Sorry about this, you guys…but this really is the kind of “conversation” going on about this mess)
on August 26th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
Last night,August 25,2010,Keith Olbermann interviewed
Donna Marsh O’Conner. She is a member of “September 11th Families for a Peaceful Tomorrow”. Donna’s pregnant
daughter died on September 11, 2001, yet despite this tragedy, Donna was quoted as saying: When did it become a crime to be a Muslim in America? Her words were passionate and tolerant and she served to remind me of everything that is great about America. I choose to stand side-by-side with people like Donna because she serves to shine a light on the ignorance of fear and hate that are presently permeating political rhetoric. Thank you,
Donna Marsh O’Conner and Keith Olbermann, too.
on August 26th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Thank you very much Pam Geller and Faux News. And they want to bring a Faux North channel to Canada AND to have a class 1 rating so that it’s included in every cable package too. Bad enough Faux is creating this horrible mess in the U.S. and too bad its licence can’t be quashed.
on August 26th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
Who is propgating this ignorance? It is not a mosque, it is a cultural center. It is not at Ground Zero, it is two blocks away. It is not sponsored by jihadists, the owner of the building has been in this country for about 30 years. Sensitivity? Many Muslims were killed at the WTC on 9-11. Remarks about changing laws in Muslim countries have no bearing on the matter. This is the United States of America and our constitution and bill of rights. Christians living in Muslim countries should only concern themselves with the laws in the United States of America, not what goes on elsewhere. And daemonesslisa, it is NOT a mosque.
on August 26th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
My lengthy comment was eliminated. In short, it is not a mosque, it is not at ground zero, it has nothing to do with actions in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Malaysis, it is a matter for the United States of America and this country’s Freedom of Religion.
on August 26th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
I ask this question again, where is congressman Darrell Issa? Why hasn’t he spoken out on this matter? I am asking this because, the Right always try to pit one minority group against another to do their dirty work. Example, they used Mr. Michael Still-Don’t-Get-It to trash Obama. When we accused the tea party of being racist, they put out the two blacks and said, ‘see, we’re not racists.’ When the gun advocates marched, they threw out in front Chris from Arizona. Lastly, with the anti-Latino crowd, they threw out in front the Latino lady they call ‘the Hobbit’ from Arizona. BTW, when Bobby Jindal failed, he was immediately taken from the ‘frontline.’
And as far as Mr. Enright, I wish law enforcement stop trying to justify this crime by saying he was intoxicated. Interesting, there are two sets of laws/standards in America. One set for minorities, and the other for whites. A perfect example, the black man in Los Angeles convicted under 3-strikes law for breaking into a kitchen to eat.
As far as sensitivity being used as an excuse, what about the Native Americans sacred land? Sensitivity, what about the Neo-Nazis marching into black neighborhoods? How about the graffitti left as Synagogues? Where is the sensitivity for minorities?
on August 26th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
I’ll go along with Greg and put a Gay Bar next door. Than we will see what hatred is. Who is going to build it. The construction unions said they will not help. I am sure New York is not a Right to Work state.
on August 26th, 2010 at 5:36 pm
Douglas is one of the virulent haters I’ve been talking about.
He supports the efforts to block the construction of this community center.
And if unions refuse to build it, they can use non-union labor, although they may have to pay prevailing wage.
As for a gay bar next door, that’s pretty much already the case. There’s a news story today about the large number of adult businesses in that area. Nudie places closer to Ground Zero than this building will be.
on August 26th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
I’m really confused at why people are interjecting what is going on in other countries with the anti-Islamic sentiment that is surrounding Park51. What exactly does the denial of building churches in predominately Muslim countries have to do with the US? Nothing at all. If we were to use the actions of other countries as a basis, then couldn’t we also say that Israel denying Muslims under a certain age the right to worship in the existing mosque (the third holiest site by the way) is wrong or for that matter their treatment of the Palestinain people in general is and that they should be pressured to do the right thing.
Park51 isn’t planned for the WTC complex nor would it be visible from there. Is people’s hatred so deeply rooted that violence against innocent people can be justified? I don’t think so.
on August 26th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
I’m embarrassed to be an American when hate like this paints with a wide brush, insinuating that all Muslims are terrorists. Freedom of religion was so important to our founders that it was the first amendment, along with other items of importance.
I’m not a Christian so I do not have a personal hatred of other religions. I’m friends with some Muslims who are scared out of their minds. They’re fourth generation Americans and are just as American as anyone else. We have a mosque just a few miles from my home. ONE mosque with over 300 Christian churches in the tri-city area in which I live.
To my Muslim neighbors, I apologize for the action of radical Americans. I hope that this will be over soon. Yes, I’m certain that some of the Muslims may be terrorists, but to instill fear in the hearts and minds of ALL Muslims is atrocious. My people have been through what the Muslims are currently going through and the Japanese CITIZENS were put through. It is DISGUSTING!
on August 26th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
I just love the SPLC. We cannot compare apples to oranges fellas. Lets put the number of anti-muslim hate crimes in some perspective, shall we? How many hate crimes against Jews? Hispanics? Whites?
My guess is, the number of anti muslim hate crimes in the US is the LOWEST of all the categories percentage-wise.
While your at it, maybe lets look at the number of hate crimes committed by muslims against non-muslims worldwide,hmm. 15,000 acts of terrorism committed in the name of Allah since 9/11. 150,000 Christians killed annually at the hands of the mohamedans.
But you dont care about that, do you SPLC, cause that doesnt fit with your agenda.
on August 26th, 2010 at 8:18 pm
Lou: According to the CIA World Factbook there are nearly three times as many jews in the US as there are muslims – of course they will get more hate crime, it isn’t going to be linearly correlated either, probably closer to logarithmic. Your other examples of groups are even further out of proportion.
I’d like to see where you got your numbers of 15,000 acts of terrorism ‘committed in the name of Allah.’ I suspect you are grouping together all of the fighting in the middle-east which is primarily about resources (as almost all conflicts are regardless of time, race, or location) with plenty of muslim on muslim violence too because their religion isn’t the reason they are fighting. Just like the 800,000 christians killed by other christians in the 100 days of the Rwandan genocide weren’t fighting about religion either.
on August 26th, 2010 at 10:02 pm
Lou please present evidence of 150,000 Christians killed annually by “Mohamedans.”
And do you not understand the word “wave”.
on August 26th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
Jean…I hope it wasn’t implied that -I- thought it was a mosque, because I know that it isn’t. If it came off as otherwise, I’m sorry.
on August 26th, 2010 at 11:50 pm
Way to go, Lou! You made me dumber.
on August 27th, 2010 at 1:58 am
Comments about Malaysia are not accurate. I live in Singapore,am very familiar with the incident and need to correct the misinformation.
Yes, there was an attack on church by a very radical muslim group which had been condemned and banned by the government. In short, the fire bombing of the church near KL was no different from those who fire bombed a mosque in the US: a crime by radical factions and not the result of any governmental policy!
The very small group which sponsored the action are in many ways akin to the people who want the US to ONLY be a Christian nation…incapable of allowing true religious freedom.
Those who did the deed are in prison and will remain so for quite some time. Sharia law does apply ONLY to muslims and only to those who are of fairly strict faith. The government will not interfere with religious matters in any way. But non-muslims are in no way bound to any aspect of sharia, just as non-Catholics in the US are not bound by canonical laws.
The implication that Buddhism, Christianity or Taoism are not allowed in either Malaysia or Indonesia are simply inaccurate and need to be called out.
on August 27th, 2010 at 8:16 am
@Douglas
People seem very confused about this. Perhaps if they actually lived in NY and had some valid standing to debate the issue, they would be less confused. There is ALREADY A BAR next to the Burlington Coat Factory space. And while Muslims may very from progressive to conservative when it comes to positions on homosexuality, there is virtually no variance on the issue of alcohol: it’s much more offensive. Yet there have been no issues because of it.
Secondly, to the “it’s not a mosque crowd”–I appreciate the sentiment, being that it is, in fact, not a mosque, however, this simply gives validity to another concern for bigots: so what if it WAS a mosque? Would that mean there was less of a right for it to be constructed? Really, this should be a non-issue.
More interesting was the commentary in the pages of the NY Post after the cabbie attack. On the one hand, the cover of the paper yesterday loudly denounced the attack, referring to it/the attacker as “a disgrace.” On the other hand, they also ran an editorial saying “there is no wave of islamophobia sweeping the nation, contrary to popular belief and all reality.” Being that it was, in no small part, the Post’s reporting on the BCF Islamic Center issue which contributed to the environment where this type of attack happens, and given the piece in that same issue flatly denying any trend of Islamophobia, I can only conclude that the Post simply meant the attacker was a “disgrace” to the Muslim-hating movement in general because of the bad press PR his attack generated for them.
on August 27th, 2010 at 8:17 am
“And while Muslims may very”
Very=vary
on August 27th, 2010 at 9:23 am
I hear that some Muslims are complaining about a potenital backlash following next week’s terror attack.
There is far more evidence supporting the assertion that the G.Z. promoters are radical hate-filled islamists than there is concerning a “WAVE” of hate-crimes against Muslims.
Yesterday in Canada three Muslims were arrested for planning terror attacks. The Muslim community is more concerned about a poterntial backlash following the arrests than it is about the planned attacks themselves.
Ottawa Muslims are now demanding the police explain why the three were arrested. They don’t appear to be bothered by the fact the three were planning mass murder, but DO appear quite upset that the jihadist plots were foiled.
Islam means “peace”, you know.
on August 27th, 2010 at 9:44 am
I get what you mean Peak, but if it isn’t a mosque it shouldn’t be called thus. It’s kind of like pointing out that Obama isn’t a Muslim or socialist. I never supported Obama but he isn’t a Muslim(not that it matters) and he isn’t a socialist. You can’t let someone get away with saying the world is flat.
on August 27th, 2010 at 10:26 am
The 15,000 terror attacks data comes from the Jawa Report, which tracks it. The 150,000 Christians killed annually by moslems comes from a report to the UN by some private organization that I, unfortunately, did not save. Mores the pity, although I will try to locate it over the weekend. Google so far no help.
I commend you to the site Christians Under Attack blog, which does a decent job of documenting the phenomena. The simple fact is, much of the Mideast used to be Christian ie Lebanon, but the Christians have been and are being driven out. Coptic Christians in Egypt being the most obvious example.
I am far from a scholar on the subject, but the book “Clash of Civilizations” by Samuel Huntington vividly portrays the fact the islam has bloody borders, and muslims have a rough time getting along with other faiths. Which is exactly as it should be given koranic doctrine of dar el harb, and intolerance for the Unbeliever.
on August 27th, 2010 at 11:13 am
Obviously, it’s not a Mosque. …..WHY?
Because to erect a Mosque at the sight of a terror site from the perspective of those who display a twisted personal religious view would be akin to building a Shinto Shrine at Pearl Harbor, or a Catholic Church at Wounded Knee (or an “Air Museum” at Hiroshima) People would not be that insensitive to the impact of the mere existence of the “name recognition” in contrast to the tragedy.
Ruslan Amirkhanov makes a point:
“but if it isn’t a mosque it shouldn’t be called thus. It’s kind of like pointing out that Obama isn’t a Muslim or socialist.”
-=-=-=-=-=-
This is a very clever and common form of group manipulation. It’s common enough and it’s quite effective. It also happens in both Parties discussions or speeches.
By “planting the seed” or by instilling the “cloak of evil” the individual sways a group by a very classic COURTROOM technique. The “word is out of their mouth & can’t be taken back”. It’s impact on the thinking already accomplished!
“So in this instance you really DIDN’T beat your wife as you had said you thought about doing previously?”
“THIS time -you fought every urge to lay a hand or other body part on that child; isn’t that right”?
Both the USA and the EU are SO enmeshed with marketing and advertising that it has pervaded our everyday lives & our justice system. One needs to step outside of it to see it more clearly.
My adult children were raised without ANY TV; there was no TV in the home. If they wanted to entertain themselves they could read, play games indoors or play outside in large open, NON-CITY environments.
What a difference that makes with them as adults. I can have a normal conversation with them.
They laugh at the manipulations attempted on them via the media, & they see through the BS with a clarity that occasionally astounds me.
It saddens me to say it but the family down the road is altogether different…..
From their family systems dynamic to their intellectual stimulation – even in their recreation they are “watchers” not “doers”.
They are easily manipulated into buying things or believing them with no proof of functionality, divorcing one another over trivialities, and so engrossed with their age and looks that they YEARN to be young for the rest of their lives…….
EVEN though they may KNOW it’s all a lie.
We are manipulated by advertising & marketing to a deep & terrible extent.
on August 27th, 2010 at 11:33 am
“Islam means “peace”, you know.”
Actually, “salam” means peace, “Islam” means submission. Then again, I’m not exactly surprised you got that wrong based on the content of the rest of your post…
on August 27th, 2010 at 11:56 am
The Jawa Report v3.0 Beta
Aug 27, 2010 … A weblog comparing Muslims to Jawas and containing criticism and satire of Islamic traditions and beliefs.
The description above from Google makes the validity of the statistics Lou cites quite clear. Welcome to the Faux News – Tea Party circle jerk Lou!
on August 27th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
Peakofelephans, I was being sarcastic.
@Mitch Beales.
The Catholic Church keeps statistics on attacks by Muslims on Catholic places of worship.
Also, there exist many, many reliable sources when it comes to documenting the abuses and the PERFECTLY LEGAL dsicrimination non-Muslims undergo in majority Muslim countries.
In Canada and Australia ( and probably the U.S.A.) some Muslim groups are constructing gated communities from which non-muslims will be barred from living in…for reasons pertaining to ‘purity’.These chauvinistic, supremacist, religious-apartheid towns are going to grow in number and their existence will become a litmus for many leftwing “watchdog” groups, most of which will, no doubt, fail that test.
on August 27th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
i am a christian and i am also of mexican decent….i was born and raised in the us as were my parents… i have served in the military and i am still not good enough for these same people that are hating on the muslims.as a matter of fact at this time i would trust a person of the muslim faith more then these so called right wing anglo/saxon christians…..all these things that they accuse the radical muslims of being they are guilty of the same.deep seeded hate!……and as far as apartheid towns are concerned….deft!!…..how about the apartheid states LIKE ARIZONA!!…that the white right supremacists want so bad…..hypocracy knows no boundaries.
on August 27th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
Yes, you were clearly being sarcastic. That’s not in question. However, the sarcasm would only work if the word “islam” meant “peace.” However, as the word “Islam” is not, in point of fact, Arabic for “peace,” the *attempt* at sarcasm fails because you clearly did not actually understand what the word meant at the time. To your credit, you still “made a funny,” albeit unintentionally, because of the ironic moment that this error on your part created.
Nice try, though.
“In Canada and Australia ( and probably the U.S.A.) some Muslim groups are constructing gated communities from which non-muslims will be barred from living in…for reasons pertaining to ‘purity’.”
Funny, as rich white people have been doing that in the U.S. and Canada (and probably Australia) for ages.
Of course, you were probably just being “sarcastic” again.
“Peace.”
on August 27th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Lou, you failed, miserably.
on August 27th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
This is actually pretty tame stuff compared to the carnage caused by the US led invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and the repression of the US backed Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories.
on August 27th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
today, 8-27-2010, the John and Ken Show on KFI740 AM radio, they started telling viewers that the Islamic Cultural Center (aka Ground Zero Mosque) will be paid for by ‘taxpayer dollars.’ They (John and Ken) went on to say that New York cabbies will not be safe now.
I have been telling people here that these guys are stoking racial/economic fears. This radio station is the same one that have, in my opinion, sponsored minutemen, tea party guests. This is the same radio station that airs Rush Limbaugh.
on August 28th, 2010 at 10:00 am
Lou,
I also don’t pretend to be a scholar on the subject, but while I have not read Huntington’s book, I have read the article he published which was its basis (Also named Clash of Civilizations) and it strikes me as fundamentally flawed in the way it explains both conflicts and identity. I would recommend reading Amartya Sen’s ‘Identity and Violence’, it is a beautifully written work, easily accessible, and provides a much more nuanced view of the reason extremist beliefs take hold.
It is easy to see those building the community centre so reviled by so many as being outsiders if we call them ‘Muslim’ and thus group them in which every other ‘Muslim’ on the planet including the ‘Muslims’ who attacked the US. I imagine the same kind of 1 dimensional thinking is used by extreme Islamists so that they can imagine all ‘Americans’ as being the same as the ‘Americans’ that they believe, rightly or wrongly, have harmed their people and their nations.
But can you honestly say that your identity is so one dimensional that the word ‘American’ can easily describe your worldview, life and personality? Do you not have other aspects of your history and your lifestyle that help define who you are? The evidence on this blog, on which I imagine most of the posters are American, shows how difficult it is to break people down into one identity. It is totally possible to be Muslim, Intolerant, and Anti-American, it is equally possible to be Muslim, American, Peaceful, and Tolerant. I have met ‘Americans’ who looked down on me for being gay, I have also met ‘Muslims’ (who would likely also consider themselves American) who did not.
Religion is a poor predictor of tolerance once you move away from broad statistics and down to the individual level, especially given that the holy writings for Muslims, Christians and Jews all contain blatantly intolerant writings many followers choose not to act on or give weight to. The logical fallacy at work here is your inability to separate the actions of Muslims in other countries, or with intolerant, hateful and violent beliefs, from those either in your own country or abroad who do not share these views but are in fact, peaceful and tolerant individuals.
on August 28th, 2010 at 10:24 am
When far ranging and enveloping social issues like bigotry and condensed down to simplistic terms I had, in the past, thought that was too narrow a perspective. I am beginning to change my mind a bit here.
I have thought that a major impact would have been education. NOT indoctrination! Rather education in the manner of teaching people how to think for themselves, how to read and comprehend, how to properly study a subject: not how to digest what is cleverly packaged
BY ANY POINT OF VIEW!
I AM NOW REALIZING THAT ONE OF THE GREATEST HURDLES THAT NEEDS TO BE MET IS THAT OF EDUCATION.
MANY PEOPLE DO NOT THINK EFFECTIVELY. THEY ESPECIALLY DON’T THINK FOR THEMSELVES AND PROCESS BOTH SIDES OF AN ISSUE; UNDERSTANDING HOW DESTRUCTIVE PERSPECTIVES COME ABOUT & HOW TO DEAL WITH THEM EFFICIENTLY.
MANY PEOPLE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW HOW TO PROCESS INFORMATION. OTHERS ARE (as adults) ASTOUNDINGLY LOW-FUNCTIONING.
I am also (unfortunately) realizing that I am shoveling sand against the tide.The larger problems are educationally based [in] that an individual cannot communicate with someone who cannot process thoughts beyond what they condition themselves to accept.
Too often those [thoughts, concepts, ideas] are so simplistic that all- encompassing diatribes are made and a cyclic vortex of the flushing toilet of human interaction aids in only perpetuating the existence of the toilet!
STUPIDITY is the problem. That becomes apparent when reading some comments on these blogs.
I’m not attempting to diminish heart felt beliefs of put anyone down but it’s very sad that people can’t divorce themselves from some of the emotionalism for just a moment and READ what they just wrote.
Sadly many would be deeply ashamed of their inability to use logic and communicative skills. Instead they are fodder for the ad-agency who targets their clothing, vehicle, & cosmetic products at a 13yr old mentality!
Some of these entries sound SO ill-prepared, that I am surprised the authors are not so ashamed to continue to make asses of themselves.
on August 28th, 2010 at 11:09 am
skinnyminny……i have heard the garbage that those two clowns say…they remind me of a couple of old women spreading gossip and rumors and alot of white america is all to willing to buy into there and other hate peddlers like faux news exaggerated lies.in my opinion the white right in this country is going to lead all there believers of there bs over a cliff like a pack of blind lemmings.
on August 28th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
@ Ruslan and Snorlax: Thank you for your steadfast defence of our U.S. Constitution! Both of you, and a few others, constantly wade through the b.s. and put out a cogent and truthful comment here at SPLC.
I KNOW how draining it can be to stand up for our cherished ideals and I just have to give you guys a virtual hug for sticking with it.
on August 28th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Lou is clearly a troll, and his statistics are dubious.
However, the original article shows no statistics or reports to justify the claims that (a) there is a string or wave of recent attacks, or (b) they were inspired by the Lower Manhattan Community Center controversy.
The question is, is this “wave” statistically reliable, or is it noise, or reporting bias (Islam is in the news, so reporters notice and spread more Muslim-bashing stories).
I hope the SPLC has the resources to do the research and/or reporting to confirm or refute these claims (and trolls :-))
on August 28th, 2010 at 8:24 pm
First, assuming one can define hate, a hate crime would be a tangible crime commited while holding some sort of severe annimosity toward the victim. The current penalty for a ‘hate’ crime is triple the sentence of the tangible crime. Therefore, what you think puts you in twice the jeopardy than what you do.
Second, with the exception of psycics, mind readers and God, a thought can only be detected when it produces an action. This is usually called motive. It is possible to be convicted of a crime without having to introduce a motive for it. However, multiple motives are also possible. When no motive is discovered, ‘hate’ can serve as a generic one. When multiple motives are apparent, ‘hate’ is always one of them.
Third, currently there is a limited list of ‘hate’ victims. You cannot ‘hate’ your Bank even if you commit a crime against it and even though you actually do ‘hate’ it.
Fourth, only the State can make a subjective judgement of what’s in the defendant’s head. The State may make their determination of ‘hate’ based on the relevent action, the defendant’s history and witnesses to both. The defendant, who is in charge of his own head and therefore the sole expert of what’s in it, has no say.
So the current up-swing in anti-Muslim sentement caused by the controversial Ground Zero mosque consists of two drunks, menacing signs and name calling. A pipe bomb was added for dramatic affect even though it occurred months prior to the mosque controversy.
At some point the State, with the support of many of the useful idiots that put it in power will be emboldened to completely scrap the Constitution and anyone who disagrees with it will be charged with a thought crime.
But before that happens I would say watch your Muslim community very carefully. You may find that their radical element is responsible for more ‘hate’ crimes against Muslims than all other ‘hate groups’ combined.
on August 28th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
It upsets me greatly that a group of people who wish to exercise their First Amendment rights are being scrutinized and put under the microscope like this.
Many religions have committed atrocities, but when a Christian group seeks to add on to or build a new church no one examines them like this. Yet there are extremist Christians who bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors in the head. No one puts the Catholic clergy under scrutiny when they build a new school to make sure that they aren’t pedophiles. Why? Because we haven’t tarred either of those ENTIRE religions with the brush of what a few bad apples within their order have done, which is as it should be.
The Taliban and Al Queda are extremist Muslim groups. They do not speak for the whole Muslim community and most of the Muslim community has harshly condemned their actions. Just as we do not hold every Christian responsible for the crimes of a few extremists, and just as we do not hold all Catholic clergy in contempt for the crimes of a few, neither should we treat all Muslims like criminals because a few extremists attacked us.
I really hope they build this Islamic Cultural Center. I’m saying this as an agnostic. This place could be a shining light of what America was meant to be: a place where people could come and coexist in peace, despite racial, religious or cultural differences.
Why can’t the media call this for what it is? The Republicans are trying to stir up fear to help them win elections. How many terror alerts did we have during the second Bush election? Fox has purposefully turned this non-issue into an enormous issue in order to get far-right conservatives upset in order to get them to the polls. It’s a disgusting political tactic that has created violence and hatred towards an innocent group of people.
Would you prefer a paper or a cloth towel to help wipe that blood off your hands, Fox?
on August 28th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
Our constitution guarantees freedom of religion to each and every one of us. What’s created this latest round of hysteria is the fact that Islamics want to build on what Americans view as a sacred site. Even though islamics have a right to do so, generally this project in proximity to Ground Zero is not a good idea in view of the circumstances. In the eyes of most Americans including myself, the muslim insistence on building represents the epitome of arrogance and disrespect. NYC politicians welcome the money. Many Americans to my dismay, make light of this serious situation. Gays are planning to build an islamic gay bar neighboring the site if the muslims insist on building there. Therefore, impending trouble seems likely. Even though choosing another site for the mosque is highly recommended, due to the increase in American aggression over this issue, the muslims will not back down.
Another issue: I believe that most assuredly funding for the building of this muslim center and mosque will be provided by the enemies of America and Israel.
on August 29th, 2010 at 12:33 am
I am amazed at all the anger this has caused. I am a christian which contrary to what’s been said does not mean I have an automatic hatred of all other religions. And I’m very sorry if all the christians you’ve met have acted that way.
Whether what’s to be built is a mosque or just a community center, does it really matter? When I first heard of the plan I thought it was a really good idea. I saw it as a way of trying to bring different cultures, communities together. Not all christians are bigits, not all muslims are radical, not all white people feel superior.
I do have to comment on that, the only racism I’ve ever faced has been others threatening me because I’m white. I’ve never understood why color was such a big deal. I thought God made us what He wanted and that was that. It wasn’t until I was in my early teens did I realize people actually cared about skin color. I know this really isn’t on point but people stop pointing fingers! Those who hate because of petty things like religion, color, how much money someone makes are insecure miserable creatures. I truly feel sorry for those who are so scared of someone or something being different that they act out in rash violence, verbal or physical. Rather than trying to assign blame to politicians, networks, etc. maybe we should stand together and show people there’s nothing to fear.
on August 29th, 2010 at 11:06 am
Statistics are dubious?
According to the FBI, hate crimes against Muslims increased by a staggering 1,600 percent in 2001. That sounds serious! But wait, the increase is a math mirage. There were 28 anti-Islamic incidents in 2000. That number climbed to 481 the year a bunch of Muslim terrorists murdered 3,000 Americans in the name of Islam on Sept. 11.
Now, that was a hate crime.
Regardless, 2001 was the zenith or, looked at through the prism of our national shame, the nadir of the much-discussed anti-Muslim backlash in the United States — and civil libertarians and Muslim activists insisted it was 1930s Germany all over again. The following year, the number of anti-Islamic hate-crime incidents (overwhelmingly, nonviolent vandalism and nasty words) dropped to 155. In 2003, there were 149 such incidents. And the number has hovered around the mid-100s or lower ever since.
Sure, even one hate crime is too many. But does that sound like an anti-Muslim backlash to you?
Let’s put this in even sharper focus. America is, outside of Israel, probably the most receptive and tolerant country in the world to Jews. And yet, in every year since 9/11, more Jews have been hate-crime victims than Muslims. A lot more.
In 2001, there were twice as many anti-Jewish incidents as there were anti-Muslim, according to the FBI. In 2002 and pretty much every year since, anti-Jewish incidents have outstripped anti-Muslim incidents by at least 6 to 1. Why aren’t we talking about the anti-Jewish climate in America?
So, there are 3 times as many Jews in America than muslims, and 6 times as many hate crimes.
on August 29th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
To summarize the more cogent of the rightwing arguments against the Islamic Cultural Center:
It appears the more literate rightwingers reluctantly agree there’s a legal right to build the cultural center, but apparently they believe it is in BAD TASTE to build it.
There is no law against bad taste in America.
on August 29th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
“Why aren’t we talking about the anti-Jewish climate in America?”
You must be new here. Very new. Wet behind the ears.
Maybe you should hold back on commenting until you’ve read the website and the magazines for a few issues.
Then you’ll find that issue IS discussed here. On a regular basis.
on August 29th, 2010 at 6:00 pm
Where is our tolerance, people?
So Muslim woman are stoned to death for committing adultery? So Muslims who converts to another religion out of the dictates of their own consciences are sentenced to death as per Islamic law (all 5 schools of Islamic jurisprudence)? So non-Muslims and Muslim women are routinely (and legally) discriminated against in Sharia-ruled societies? So Muslims have perpetrated over 15,000 acts of religiously-motivated violence since 9-11 (killing hundreds of thousands)?
What’s all the fuss about? Chill out!
on August 29th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
First, there is no right to build anything in America. In recent decades all building and construction is subject to local building codes which require a permit. A permit is a document extending PERMISSION to build. One of the considerations to issue a permit is how your building will affect your neighbors. Therefore, if you need permission to build, obviously you had no right to build in the first place.
Second, there are no property rights in America. You may not build, store, cultivate, alter or improve your property without the above mentioned permit. If you fail to pay your property taxes, which obviously are a tax levied on your property, your property will be confiscated. Therefore, you have no right to it if the State can charge you annually for it and take it away without your consent. The State may even take your kids away from you if it wants and give them to someone you do not know or approve of.
Third, there is no such thing as religious freedom in America. A church is not free to rent out its property for a secular graduation unless it removes all of its offending icons. Even if it does, it may incurr the wrath of a State judge at the bequest of just one disgruntled attendee. Religious displays and even prayers are forbidden on public property. Churches are given special privleges by the State in the form of tax breaks provided they do not offend the State by engaging in politics. Since politics can and does involve moral issues, the church is in a constant state of insecurity if it chooses to prostelitize on moral issues. This, of course is its job.
But there is one political faction that has these rights and that is Islam. We could call it a religion since it has a dogma and a God. But it also has Sharia, a law, or more accurately, a constitution in which all adherants are subject. Sharia finance is being introduced to the west and the State Department has been teaching it for a few years now to its employees. England has already adapted it. There are pockets in Europe that are kingdoms within themselves run under Sharia where honor killings are justified as well as a host of other barbaric acts. The slow creep to overtake the west, a fundemental tennenet of Sharia, is well underway.
The Cordoba mosque is no more than a monument to Islamic victory over the west and is seen that way by all muslims. The west has a hard time grasping the concept of a theocracy because it has been 500 years since they suffered under one. There is no separation of church and state to a muslim. Therefore, it is not difficult to see why, even in the face of such overwhelming opposition, the mosque’s leadership in keeping this monument where it is. They claim it’s an outreach but they know it’s a mockery. They do not care for western opinion. They care about muslim progress..
We are not so free that we can afford to be fools.
on August 29th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
Ruben,
I feel the same way you do. However, I am multi-racial, black, white and native american. I feel like I will never be accepted.
However, I feel that it should be mandatory for Americans to view the documentary “Thunder in Guyana.” Here is why, it is a profile of Janet Rosenberg Jagan, a Jewish American from Chicago. Mrs. Jagan went to Guyana and married a Indian national name Cheddi Jagan. American news media accused Mrs. Jagan of being a communist, followed by accusing her husband of being a communist. Americans rigged the election saying they wanted to bring democracy to Guyana. What followed was race wars and burned villages…..The moral of this story, the blacks were brought in as slaves, and the Indians were brought in as indentured servants. To me, this is what is happening in our country now, Obama is being accused of being a socialist, the tea parties are talking about no-taxes/less government/no medical-social security-pensions, accusations of the 2000 election rigged.
Now let’s look at the facts, the corporations such as manufacturing have moved to other countries, customer service by phone is in other countries, farmers have moved to Mexico and Brazil, insurance companies won’t pay for hurricane damage….. banks are unwilling to lend to small businesses….so, my question is what will America look like in the future with all the abandoned homes and empty storefronts. Will we continue to chase away people that are willing to invest here based on ethnicity or religion?
on August 29th, 2010 at 8:24 pm
Ruben,
Sorry, I got distracted. I meant to say when the media and politicians use race as a political issues, it can have lasting and damaging effects on the minority they are involving. As far as I know, there are still racial problems in Guyana between the blacks and Indians, as well as racial problems in Trinidad.
on August 29th, 2010 at 11:42 pm
Ok well Chet’s comment is totally irrelevant because what any Muslim does in some foreign country does not concern US law. Let me concentrate on Dick’s Post of Wackiness.
First of all Dick, they have a permit to lease a building so this is irrelevant. Private entities engaging in private business.
Second Dick, there are property rights in America. Feel free to argue your bizarre theory in court some time though. When you do, if the judge does not scream at you to get the hell out of the courtroom, he might inform you that government regulation of property rights does not equate to the abolishment of private property. All “rights” must be backed up with some kind of force. If someone violates them you must have some kind of government court so you can take them in and ensure that they will be punished and that the penalty will be carried out. Moreover, do you think people should be allowed to do whatever they want on their private property? Are regulations that keep people from running a brothel or drug-warehouse on their property unreasonable? Regulation does not equal abolishment.
Bottom line: It you don’t have property regulations, then nobody has a right to private property beyond that which they can defend with force.
Next, freedom of religion. Your claim is utterly, laughably false. Prayer is not forbidden in public property. Sessions of Congress sometimes open with prayer. My public high school had a Christian student group which prayed openly on school grounds in the morning- their group was prominently featured in the school yearbook as well. Defendants in court swear on a Bible. On numerous occasions I witnessed mass prayers led by a chaplain in the US army, on post.
So your claim is totally false. This makes you either a liar, or terribly ignorant and gullible. You pick which one.
Your claims about “pockets of Sharia law” in Europe are laughable as the rest- you most likely have never set foot in Europe. Furthermore, the building in question is not a mosque, and I HIGHLY doubt YOU of all people are able to read the minds of over 1 billion Muslims and tell us “how they see it.” It is a community center with a prayer room(which exists in many airports, which often have Christian chapels as well).
So as we can see from your attempt to lump Muslims into some kind of hive-mind collective, you are nothing but a bigot, no different than those of old who used to warn us against Irish/Italian Roman “Popery” or the “Yellow Peril”.
on August 30th, 2010 at 12:03 am
Based on what people have said here about the Islamic world, I must conclude I am a really lucky person. I have been to numerous Muslim lands as a non-Muslim, and never attacked. I spent a great deal of time hanging around Muslims in America and never ended up as a hostage. How did I manage to avoid getting killed thus far? I don’t know but I’m going to push my luck and travel to Turkey yet again. Pray(on public property if you wish) that my fortune does not run out!
on August 30th, 2010 at 8:52 am
@Lou
“According to the FBI, hate crimes against Muslims increased by a staggering 1,600 percent in 2001. That sounds serious! But wait, the increase is a math mirage. There were 28 anti-Islamic incidents in 2000. That number climbed to 481 the year a bunch of Muslim terrorists murdered 3,000 Americans in the name of Islam on Sept. 11.”
So… You’re saying that it’s a “math mirage” because it is, in fact, accurate? I’m not sure I follow. I’m pretty sure most people would consider an massive numerical increase to be, well, just that–a massive numerical increase. Perhaps you could explain what mental gymnastics it requires to make 481 less than 28?
“In 2003, there were 149 such incidents. And the number has hovered around the mid-100s or lower ever since.”
So your argument is that the numbers “hovered” around more than 3x as high AFTER 9/11 as before? I’m not sure how that is refuting the idea of an increase in anti-Muslim hate crimes after 9/11, being that, for example, 149 is substantially higher than, say, 28. But apparently for you, 28>149, which is pretty remarkable.
“Sure, even one hate crime is too many. But does that sound like an anti-Muslim backlash to you?”
Well, in that a “backlash” in this sense usually means a spike/increase in incidences of hate crimes, then, yes, it sounds like a backlash. Unless of course it’s “Opposite Day,” which it apparently is for you, Lou. It’s a pity to know all those remedial math courses never paid off, isn’t it?
on August 30th, 2010 at 11:16 am
RUSLAN: “…what any Muslim does in some foreign country does not concern US law.”
But it DOES concern the ethics, morals, legal and sociological proclivities of MUSLIMS. For as long as we look at this issue in purely legalistic terms, we are missing the boat entirely.
Muslims DEMAND sensitivity and accommodation of their beliefs and practices. WHERE IS THE RECIPROCITY? Surely they understand they have struck a raw nerve here. Why can’t they relocate elsewhere?
Answer: Because the specificity of the location IS relevant to Muslims. The expectation is that once the ‘Center’ becomes a reality, there will then be a large, visible Muslim presence in the neighborhood, forever compromising Ground Zero from becoming a psychological rallying point for the Nation’s coming struggle against Jihad, dhimmitude, and other facets of Islamic supremacism.
on August 30th, 2010 at 11:41 am
Actually Lou there were only twice as many Jews as Muslims in the USA in 2008 according to the American Religious Identification Survey. http://www.census.gov/compendi.....0s0075.xls Hate crimes were more than 8 times more likely to be directed against Jews during that period (2008). http://www.google.com/url?sa=t....._iJo_v8Alw
Since you brought it up it was actually hate crimes against Jews that consisted overwhelmingly of “nonviolent vandalism and nasty words” if this corresponds to the FBI’s “Destruction/damage/vandalism” category. When it comes to assaults there were about twice as many against Jews as against Muslims, about the same as their representation in the population. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/data/table_04.html There was actually 1 more anti-Islamic arson reported to the FBI as compared to anti-Jewish arson.
Do all these numbers really matter? Is hate crime acceptable in limited numbers or against one group but not another? Does the murder of 3,000 in New York justify the murder of tens of thousands in Afghanistan and Iraq? Do we really need to take an eye for an eye until everyone is blind? When they’ve taken all the Muslims to concentration camps will they come for you?
on August 30th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
“Your claims about “pockets of Sharia law” in Europe are laughable as the rest- you most likely have never set foot in Europe”……
Oh really? In England there are numerous Sharia courts. They restrict themselves to domestic disputes, divorce, contracts etc. For now.
Ruslan are you really so misinformed as to not know this? Or rather are you an apologist……..continues below.
In the internet age, we know all about the mischief of the moslems in Europe, the no – go areas, the astronomical level of rapes against the indigenous population. Would you like for me to share the statistics on the latter, because those I have at my fingertips?.
on August 30th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
“I have been to numerous Muslim lands as a non-Muslim, and never attacked. I spent a great deal of time hanging around Muslims in America and never ended up as a hostage. How did I manage to avoid getting killed thus far?”
Very simple Ruslan. You, along with Prof. Espisito et al are performing your useful function of appeasers.
I have a dentist appt, but will be sharing Fjordmans statistics on moslem rape in Europe post haste. Everyone should know that an unveiled woman – intoxicated – has sinned twice, and is thus fair game. Not here in America, at least not yet, but indeed where moslem population percentages are higher.
on August 30th, 2010 at 12:34 pm
hate crimes directed at moslems, eh? Try vice versa. From Oslo, Norway.
Two out of three charged with rape in Norway’s capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.The study is the first where the crime statistics have been analyzed according to ethnic origin. Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year. Police Inspector Gunnar Larsen of Oslo’s Vice, Robbery and Violent crime division says the statistics are surprising – the rising number of rape cases and the link to ethnic background are both clear trends. But Larsen does not want to speculate on the reasons behind the worrying developments. While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo’s population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases, with 20 percent being women of foreign background.
Political corectness prevents the Police form noting the assailants are moslem.
This is great stuff, for it allows me to post what I’ve learned of islam in Europe, all bad news. Well before we here in American reach that critical level of moslems in the population.
on August 30th, 2010 at 12:38 pm
Oh yes. I forgot the MOST important statistics. Moslem rapists comprise 80% or so of all rapes in Europe these days, but they comprise at most 5% – 10% of the population at most. Isnt that GRAND!
The figures on Muslim rape of Western women in Europe are astounding. In Denmark and Norway, between 65% and 70% of all rapes are committed by Muslims, who as yet still less than 5% of the population. One local judge in Norway actually exonerated one rapist by accepting his defense that the victim’s dress was taken by him to mean that she was egging him on. Her dress was nothing special to Norwegians, but the judge found it to be unbearably provocative to this poor Muslim immigrant. A curious argument, is it not? Even if she had been dressed a la Gisele Bundchen doing a shoot for Victoria’s Secret — and she of course was not — rape is not an acceptable response.
The argument now seems to be: Western mores are offensive. Western women are cheap and offensive. We Muslims are here, here to stay, and we have a right to take advantage of this situation. It is our view of the matter that should prevail. Western goods, like the land on which we now live, belong to Allah and to the best of men — his Believers. Western women, too, essentially belong to us — our future booty. Western laws may “apply” but not in any sense that really counts or that we reocgnize. We recognize Islamic law, the sharia, and according to that we are simply exhibiting the attiudes toward Infidels that are drummed into us, that are right and according to the laws of Allah. Why should we act differently? Oh, and if we happen to act, as some of the Islamic websites tell us we can act, in accordance with the local laws — but only insofar as they do not contradict Islam — that is only because of darura, the doctrine of necessity — and that necessity, that darura, is of course only temporary.
What say you, Ruslan? Oh, I know, I am a racist and bigot. Why of course!
on August 30th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
Lou, your “statistics” are as laughable as they are unsourced. I’m an “appeaser”? That’s strange because I traveled to these places usually on a simple tourist visa. I really hope I didn’t violate any international laws by committing appeasement without the required diplomatic visa!!! You know Lou, somehow I manage to get along in peace with every Muslim I’ve ever known. Can’t say the same for Christians of various stripes. Maybe you’d like to explain that.
And as for Muslim views, when I want them, I will ask Muslims. I’m sorry but I don’t trust your telepathic mind-reading abilities.
And Chet, I’m TERRIBLY sorry but the Constitution overrides all of your whiny BS. Muslims have a right to build the center. You want reciprocity? The center is open to all. There it is. Christians corrupt school boards in the US demanding that their beliefs be accommodated in science class- where’s the “reciprocity” there? Any time evangelical Christians cross the boundaries of Church and state they whine to the high heavens.
The fact is you are hypocrites, and yes you are bigots.
on August 30th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
And Chet, I don’t see how Muslims wanting to build a cultural center in property they legally leased is DEMANDING anything. Just come out and admit it, you want to deny people equal rights in a nation defined by a Constitution that is supposed to grant it(however it may fail to do so from time to time).
And again, what goes on in Muslim countries is irrelevant. If people get caned in Singapore, should the US court system be allowed to engage in corporal punishment?
on August 30th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
Chet and Lou,
I’m not sure if you guys are crying or praying for help. Anyway, the muslims you are complaining about are ‘white’ aka caucasion according to census…..that’s right, check it out for yourselves. In fact, the only time they will say they are a minority, aka African-American is if they are using affirmative action programs, otherwise, they indicate on all forms (documentation) they are white.
BTW, I don’t see what the problem is actually. No matter what country people come from they will, or tend to bring their own culture. I don’t see why you guys think that everyone wants to be like you, or Americans for that matter.
on August 30th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
SKINNYMINNY: “Anyway, the muslims you are complaining about are ‘white’ aka caucasion according to census…..that’s right, check it out for yourselves.”
RESPONSE: What is it with the liberal obsession with race? I don’t care what race people are, I care about their beliefs. The supremacist beliefs of Muslims, their proclivity for stonings, amputations and the killing of apostates, and their absolute intolerance of any critical scrutiny of their creed…should be of concern to all of us.
RUSLAN: “The fact is you are hypocrites, and yes you are bigots.”
RESPONSE: What we have here folks is the new McCarthyism. When liberals can’t cogently refute the arguments of conservatives, they resort to the cry of bigotry and racism, hoping that will intimidate dissenters into silence.
on August 30th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Lou’s math problems just won’t go away! If 65% of the rapes in Oslo were committed by the 14.3% non-western population of which <5% are Muslim something just doesn't add up. His numbers seem to be based (he certainly wouldn't stoop to citing his sources other than the uber reliable JAWA report) on a one paragraph report in the English version of the Aftenposten published in 2001 which cites "a police study." http://www.aftenposten.no/engl.....190268.ece This report has been widely reprinted and permuted by circle jerking right wing bloggers but it really doesn't matter how many people say the moon is made of green cheese. Could this possibly be just another variation of the bogeyman rapist of "white" women who has served white supremacists so effectively for so long?
It appears that Britain's "Sharia Courts" represent essentially a form of binding arbitration which all parties agree to. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....itain.html I certainly wouldn't willingly submit myself to the judgement of someone who believes he has a "personal relationship with Jesus" or Allah or any other such nonsense but it only seems fair that those who agree to binding arbitration should be bound by it. I just hope that Britain has a system in place that assures that those who submit to the judgement of such a panel do so willingly.
I'm a little surprised that someone as concerned as Lou is about even-handed treatment of Muslims and Jews left out the old but very reliable statistics regarding the number of Gentile children murdered to prepare matzoh for Pesach!
on August 30th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
Chet,
Okay! You are more concerned with their beliefs! I will give you one more, there is a group of people in this country right now from Central America, and they CANNOT practice christianity, it is against their laws. I will leave it up to you to figure this out – and no, they are not muslims. BTW, you say you are concerned about their punishment. Would you prefer they use guns – much like American culture.
As for me, I am agnostic, which is the way a lot of Americans are going these days, thanks to Christianity in America – however, all is not bad with Islam. What is good about Islam is no ALCOHOL/DRUGS. In fact, people that I know are leaving Christianity for Judaism, and yes, they are black.
So, again, when people migrate to this country from elsewhere, they tend to, and will bring their own culture, something we as Americans fall short on, for example Family and Friends. This country divides and separates – this culture here has people putting elderly in rest homes, we frown on adults living home with parents (something other cultures believe in if that adult is single), we are so divisive that we look down on others if there are 2-4 families in one house/or too many people living in one house. We don’t believe in sharing due to greed…..
on August 30th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
Oh Chet, you’re so funny! You say that you are concerned about Muslim beliefs. Well, let me break it down for you, I believe you are wasting your time trying to stop the ground zero cultural center, as well as any future mosques. Republican Darrell Issa – Calif is a Muslim, congress, he is targeting blacks in government. I’ve read reports and comments that he travels back and forth to Syria and Lebanon. Oh, then there’s Republican Councilman Allan mansoor – Costa Mesa Calif – he is targeting illegal immigrants, mainly Latinos, he’s Egyptian. First he followed in Arizona’s footsteps saying illegal immigrants weren’t welcome in Costa Mesa, and now he is targeting the lunch trucks owned/operated by Latinos. So you see, they are targeting minorities at this point, don’t you think they are going to come after the White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant next. I figure if they can continue to get into governmental positions and grab more power – do you think they will care if you are out in mass holding your ‘not welcome here’ signs that they will care? Wow! You are so funny! This is the best laugh I’ve had today. Thank you Chet!
on August 30th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Skinnyminny,
Your alienation and disdain for your own country and culture is quite evident. Unlike you, I find my fellow Americans remarkably generous…for example, contrast our generous contributions to the victims of the tsunami in Muslim Indonesia with the stinginess of the Gulf Arabs sitting on their oil trillions, a phenomenon that was repeated after the recent floods in Pakistan.
Unlike you, I also find my fellow Americans as open-minded and tolerant compared to the prevailing atmosphere in the Muslim world, where Christian Copts in Egypt for example suffer regularly from violent pogroms and persecutions at the hands of the Muslim majority, where in Nigerian and Indonesian, Christians have been killed by the thousands (yes, THOUSANDS) over the last decade by Muslim extremists, where in Indonesia and Pakistan, churches are frequently bombed and/or torched…and throughout the Islamic world, where non-Muslims are forbidden by law to publicly witness and proselytize their faith, where acquiring a building permit for a new church or temple requires a presidential signature, and where Muslim women are forbidden by law from marrying non-Muslim men.
But of course you’re probably unaware of any of this.
on August 30th, 2010 at 9:06 pm
Sorry Ruslan, I meant apologist, not appeaser.
Mitch, where did you come up with muslims being less than 5% of 14.3%? Muslims are 14.3% of the population.
If you are wondering about source, Google Fjordman. Here is a link for you where you can check out all the documented sources – mostly of a police variety – yourselves. http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2.....n-and.html
on August 30th, 2010 at 9:09 pm
This from the Brussels Journal. Apparently the “circle jerk right wingers” werent the only ones on the story. Interesting that there are 6 times as many rapes in Olso as NYC.
The number of rapes in the Norwegian capital Oslo is six times as high as in New York City. I’ve written about the issue of rape and Muslim immigration so many times that I am, quite frankly, a bit tired of the subject. But as we all know, problems don’t disappear just because you are tired of talking about them, so here goes.
There has been an explosive increase in the number of rape charges in the city of Oslo, but both the media and the authorities consistently refuse to tell us why. They did do so, however, in 2001, when two out of Norway’s three largest newspapers, Aftenposten and Dagbladet, reported that most of these rape charges involve an immigrant perp, which again mostly means Muslims. Both newspapers have since then conveniently “forgotten” about this, and have never connected the issue to Muslim immigration although the number of rape charges has continued to rise to historic levels. They are thus at best guilty of extreme incompetence, since their former articles about this issue are still available online.
Norway’s Minister of Justice from 2001 to 2005, Odd Einar Dørum, mentioned the problem in 2001 but has later gone quiet about the issue. The reported number of rapes in Oslo is now six – 6! – times as high per capita as in New York City, yet the media keeps warning against Islamophobia.
According to Aftenposten, the clinic (voldtektsmottak) at the emergency hospital known as Legevakt has never had so many rape victims to treat. Its ability to care for them all is being severely tested. The number of reported rapes has skyrocketed this year.
Two out of three charged with rape in Norway’s capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily. Unni Wikan, a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo, in 2001 said that “Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes” because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. The professor’s conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: “Norwegian women must realize that we live in a Multicultural society and adapt themselves to it.”
on August 30th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
Chet I refuted your claims already. Muslim practice outside the US has absolutely NO bearing on the US constitution, period. Moreover, Muslims are not “DEMANDING” anything, they want nothing more than to be able to exercise their rights under the constitution like everyone else.
Ergo, all your “points” have been easily refuted. Hence what more is left but to call you a bigot.
on August 31st, 2010 at 8:53 am
Ruslan,
1) Those opposed to the mosque reject outright your contention that the GZM is exclusively a legal issue. We believe that while Muslims have the constitutional right to build the mosque, that doesn’t make it ethically or morally right.
2) As for Muslim “demands”,
a) Muslim workers at a meat-packing plant in the midwest DEMAND and now receive prayer time 3-times a day, a privilege not granted to their American counterparts
b) Muslim cabbies in Minneapolis DEMAND the right to refuse to carry passengers in possession of unopened bottles of alcohol, and passengers with dogs (including the blind), because dogs and alcohol are considered “unclean”
c) the OIC is DEMANDING that criticism of “religion” (i.e., Islam) be outlawed in all UN member states
d) Muslim cabbies in Minniapolis DEMANDED and received foot-baths for ablution at the Minneapolis airport, built at PUBLIC expense
e) a Muslim woman in Florida DEMANDED that she not be made to expose her face for her driver’s license picture
f) a woman who works for Disney is DEMANDING that the company alter its uniform policy to accommodate Muslim dress
These are just off the top of my head. I could research and give you dozens more examples.
Meanwhile, the most outrageous demand is to build a mosque at Ground Zero, sensitivities of Americans be damned.
See friend, you haven’t refuted ANYTHING. But we’ve established one thing for certain, you are a practitioner of the NEW McCARTHYISM, trying to silence dissent through defamation and slander. Tail-gunner Joe accused those he didn’t agree with of being communists. You brand those you disagree with as being bigots.
on August 31st, 2010 at 8:55 am
Well then Lou, if I am an apologist, how is it that the average Muslim jihadist on the streets of Tirana or Istanbul knew this? It’s not like I wear a t-shirt or something. I guess we must conclude that unlike you guys who are afraid or your own shadow, I am a total badass for walking alone in numerous Muslim countries and territories. Hell yeah.
“There has been an explosive increase in the number of rape charges in the city of Oslo, but both the media and the authorities consistently refuse to tell us why.”
In other words, you don’t really have an explanation other than making inferences based on faulty correlations. And it would also help if you provided DIRECT links to your so called sources so we can determine exactly what they said. On numerous occasions otherwise innocuous stories from various media outlets have been twisted to make it seem like Muslims are having 8 children per family or in one case, that 50% of newborns in the Netherlands are Muslim(laughable).
And Chet, since when was supporting the US constitution CONSISTENTLY a form of hatred against America? What you consistently fail to grasp is that whatever Muslims, or anyone else does in their own countries is irrelevant to US statute and the Constitution. As I said before, Singapore uses caning as a punishment. Will we then throw the 8th amendment out the window if “the people” want to use corporal punishment on someone? Moreover, if you actually did some research you would find that there is persecution of Muslims and mass killings of Muslims in many areas of the world. All of this is moot though, because the beauty of America is that people who live there can leave behind ethnic and religious rivalry.
on August 31st, 2010 at 9:24 am
Ok Chet, thanks for ennumerating your points. It makes them easier to sink. Like a convoy of fail if we use submarine terminology.
“1) Those opposed to the mosque reject outright your contention that the GZM is exclusively a legal issue. We believe that while Muslims have the constitutional right to build the mosque, that doesn’t make it ethically or morally right.”
Too damned bad. It is a legal/constitutional issue and what you feel is “morally right”(what makes it “wrong” I wonder) is irrelevant. We have a Constitution and separation of church and state so differences in moral codes don’t lead to domination by one sect. If you are of Irish roots you ought to be glad for that.
“a) Muslim workers at a meat-packing plant in the midwest DEMAND and now receive prayer time 3-times a day, a privilege not granted to their American counterparts”
Smoking workers often demand smoke breaks. What is your point? Workers should demand accomodation of their beliefs, disabilities, etc. Somehow I think you would be singing a different tune if a workplace forbid workers to have a bible study on break or something like that.
“b) Muslim cabbies in Minneapolis DEMAND the right to refuse to carry passengers in possession of unopened bottles of alcohol, and passengers with dogs (including the blind), because dogs and alcohol are considered “unclean””
I’ll have to see a source on this but I don’t see anything wrong with it. Hindus DEMAND accomodation of their beliefs in the workplace, as to Jews, Christians, and people of other religions. Nazi Odinists in prison DEMAN recognition of their religious beliefs and the right to hold their ceremonies.
“c) the OIC is DEMANDING that criticism of “religion” (i.e., Islam) be outlawed in all UN member states”
Uh yeah, that’s really going to happen. Again, Constitution protects Islam, Constitution protects fear-filled bigots like you. Why do you hate America?
“d) Muslim cabbies in Minniapolis DEMANDED and received foot-baths for ablution at the Minneapolis airport, built at PUBLIC expense”
Bush DEMANDED tax-money be funneled to faith-based charity programs. What’s the point?
“e) a Muslim woman in Florida DEMANDED that she not be made to expose her face for her driver’s license picture”
There are limits to how much one can get away with in the free practice of religion. Rastafarians aren’t allowed to buy and sell weed, for example. I don’t know how this story ended up but who cares? Christians DEMAND that “intelligent design” be taught in schools.
“f) a woman who works for Disney is DEMANDING that the company alter its uniform policy to accommodate Muslim dress”
Christians DEMANDED that Disney not cater to gay employees in any way.
“These are just off the top of my head. I could research and give you dozens more examples.”
Research isn’t your strong point. I recognize some of the stories but as usual, there is probably a lot you are not reporting, and it seems that you only get upset when Muslims DEMAND accommodation of their religion.
“Meanwhile, the most outrageous demand is to build a mosque at Ground Zero, sensitivities of Americans be damned.”
Nope, the demand is that Constitutional rights apply to them as everyone else.
“See friend, you haven’t refuted ANYTHING.”
Yes, actually I have. You can gnash your teeth and say “no you haven’t all you want” but your argument is illegitimate, courtesy of the Constitution of the US.
“But we’ve established one thing for certain, you are a practitioner of the NEW McCARTHYISM, trying to silence dissent through defamation and slander.”
When did I say you shouldn’t be allowed to say what you are saying here? Free speech doesn’t mean freedom from criticism, it doesn’t mean that people won’t call you out for your ignorancy or bigotry. It just means you won’t be hauled into the pokey.
And the irony of someone like you whining about McCarthyism is hilarious.
” Tail-gunner Joe accused those he didn’t agree with of being communists.”
And people like you used to cheer him on, and some today still try to claim he was right.
“You brand those you disagree with as being bigots.”
Because you are displaying bigotry.
on August 31st, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Lou I would tend to include The Brussels Journal among the right wing circle jerkers based on the first entry when I Google them.
The Brussels Journal | The Voice of Conservatism in Europe
Weblog focusing on European and world affairs with a specialty in Belgian matters.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/ – Cached – Similar
Will France Really Be A Muslim …
Why Muslims Like Hitler, but Not Mozart
Canary in the Coalmine: Europe’s …
Switzerland as an Example for the …
European Anti-Americanism in The …
Fitting the Marxist Patterns
Going Broke Together
Can We Coexist With The Left?
Perhaps you aren’t aware that some things on the internet are not necessarily true even if the blog that posts them has a name that sounds like a newspaper. As I mentioned the one paragraph article in the Aftenposten was rather vague regarding the source of the “police report” it cited and frankly I’m tired of trying to track down your vague references. Suffice it to say that I saw everything you’ve cited in your most recent post when I was researching yesterday’s reply and discounted it since none of the reports cited any verifiable sources. Frankly reports about the nationality of criminals in Norway seem suspect since the government statistics available online don’t seem to include such data. Perhaps you can find them at http://www.ssb.no/a_krim_tab_en/. The available data do suggest that “sexual crimes” have been pretty stable over the past 10-15 years both with regard to the number of crimes reported http://www.ssb.no/lovbrudda_en.....06-en.html and the number of crimes investigated http://www.ssb.no/lovbrudde_en/. Other available data cast doubt on your assertion that most crimes committed by immigrants in Norway are committed by Muslims. The “national backgrounds” in the table at http://www.ssb.no/english/subj.....ml#tab0313 make it seem unlikely that most of the immigrant population in Norway is Muslim. Perhaps the Norwegian edition of the Aftenposten has a more detailed report but unfortunately I don’t read Norwegian so I’m unable to access that or to verify your claim about “the clinic (voldtektsmottak) at the emergency hospital known as Legevakt” although it appears that most other circle jerkers mean 2006 when they say “this year” in reference to that sentence.
Regarding the quote by Unni Wikan it seems that she denies at least the first quote you attribute to her although the clearly anti-Muslim author of the post at http://www.globalpolitician.com/22792-norway translates the second quotation you cite the same way you do.
Wikipedia states that “Fjordman is an anonymous Norwegian blogger who writes articles critical of Islam and the danger which he regards Muslim immigration as posing to Western civilization.” He sounds rather like the Norwegian equivalent of the JAWA report! The post you link to is from 2005 and most of the information it references is either in Swedish (I think) or on web pages that no longer exist. The one reference in English talked about the rapes of a 21 year old woman and a 13 year old girl with no reference to the nationality, ethnicity, or religion of the attackers. Fjordman cited this as support for his claim that the number of rapes of children in Sweden doubled between 1995 and 2005 although the article makes it clear that this was due primarily to a change in the way rape is defined in Swedish law so that it is easier to prosecute rapists.
Perhaps you could provide more specific citations for the reports by the Aftenposten and Dagbladet “that most of these rape charges involve an immigrant perp, which again mostly means Muslims.” I’m frankly sick of wading through the pages and pages of Google hits on circle jerker citations of these articles which don’t actually seem to exist anywhere.
I actually got the 5% figure for the Muslim population in Norway from your post. “In Denmark and Norway, between 65% and 70% of all rapes are committed by Muslims, who as yet still less than 5% of the population.” The 14.3% figure was from the Aftenposten article and referred to the “non-western” immigrant population of Oslo. Nowhere in the Aftenposten article was there any mention of Islam or Muslims.
You don’t make the time frame clear when you refer to “The reported number of rapes in Oslo is now six – 6! – times as high per capita as in New York City” but the Aftenpost article indicates that there were 111 rapes in Oslo in 2001 while the population of Oslo was 506,923 that year so the rate was 21.9 rapes per 100,000 inhabitants. http://www.ssb.no/fobhushold_e.....08-en.html Meanwhile, back in New York, there were 19,084,350 inhabitants and 3,546 rapes in 2001 http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm or 18.6 per 100,000 inhabitants. So the rate of rape was less than 20% higher in Oslo compared to New York. That isn’t nearly as alarming as your claim in the first sentence of your post that there are “6 times as many rapes in Olso as NYC” a city 40 times bigger.
You may indeed be “quite frankly, a bit tired of…the issue of rape and Muslim immigration” but, since your aim seems to be to alarm, I seriously doubt that you will stop writing about it. One thing I have noticed in preparing this reply is how much easier the Arabic numerals invented by Muslims make the calculations! They definitely make it easier to ferret out the ridiculous lies of hate mongers who cite numbers they have neither verified nor thought about.
on August 31st, 2010 at 10:18 pm
Hmm…I’m noticing a pattern here.
1. Right-winger makes alarmist, un-sourced, highly dubious claim based on statistics.
2. Numbers are debunked.
3. New dubious statistics a provided.
4. They too are easily debunked.
The question here is what a guy like Lou is going to do after realizing that not only are the stats bogus, but someone has deliberately misrepresented them. I can’t speak for right-wingers, but once I catch someone lying to me I start to suspect their other claims to and start checking with the other side.
on September 1st, 2010 at 7:43 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09.....f=nyregion
Hmmm…I wonder where these teens got the idea that it’s open season on Muslims?
on September 1st, 2010 at 9:56 am
Is there a double standard at work here? Do you think Muslims (or any dark skinned person) shooting outside a fundamentalist church would be considered “…just kids doing stupid things…” or would they be terrorists?
on September 1st, 2010 at 11:26 am
Ruslan,
First off, you make bizarre and totally inaccurate assumptions about me – that I “cheered on” McCarthy, that I am a Christian (my supposed support for ‘Bible study’ at work). I’d like to attribute this to adolescent petulance, by I don’t know your age.
Secondly, you go on to tout the Constitutional separation of Church and State, and then in your next breath shrug off its violation when Minnesota spent public money to build Airport foot-baths for religious purification rituals. Hardly the picture of consistency.
You go on to insist that Muslim cabbies should have the right to discriminate against certain passengers, including the blind. My, what a constitutional scholar you are.
As for the IOC’s demands that criticism of Islam be outlawed by member states of the UN, your own Mr Obama co-sponsored the resolution with Egypt. Could never happen here, eh? Why do you hate America?
I could go on, but I’ve made my point.
on September 1st, 2010 at 1:12 pm
He’s not “my own Obama” Chet. If you’re going to whine about assumptions don’t make such foolish ones.
Whether you are Christian or not, I wonder what a fierce fighter you are for separation of church and state when it comes to Christian evangelists making their demands, including controlling high school curricula. This has been going on for decades- where was your rage then?
As for Minnesota, I don’t know about the airport but thanks to this article I found from a Hindu website it seems the state voted to accommodate all religions equally(GASP!!!) The line between Church and state often becomes blurred but on the other hand discrimination based on religion is not allowed. So for example, a Sikh cannot be made to cut their hair or beard.
Next, in case you hadn’t heard, cabbies are not government employees. Ever notice those signs everywhere that say “X has the right to refuse service…bla bla bla.” I don’t agree with it but it’s called private property rights. Moreover, WHO are these “Muslim cabbies” anyway? There are a LOT of Muslims in New York and a great deal of Muslims in America actually drink beer themselves(millions of Muslims worldwide drink alcohol).
As for this IOC claim, unless you mean International Olympic Community I really don’t know what the hell you are talking about. That being said, Obama can “co-sponsor” anything he wants- none of this is binding on the US Constitution.
So Chet, once again, you have no “point.” This is a Constitutional issue. There are private property rights, this is a transaction between two private entities, and the Constitution protects the right to build the community centre(which is open to all). Checkmate.
on September 1st, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Ruslan,
If this is your version of a “checkmate”, than you aren’t very well versed in the art of disputation.
1) You seem to justify the blurring of church and state when it comes to Islam by pointing to examples of it happening vis-a-vis Christianity, as if two wrongs make a right. Hardly a position of intellectual integrity. Unlike you, I oppose ALL efforts to subvert the establishment clause.
2) Speaking of “controlling High School curriculum”, were you aware that a California Middle School district has students pronouncing the Muslim profession of faith, adopting a Muslim and wearing Muslim clothes, and creating a game about spiritual jihad? The US 9th circuit has actually ruled this to be “cultural” instead of religious, even though it includes the profession of faith.
Were you also aware that Muslim-advocacy groups have taken over the form and content of how Islam is taught in our public schools?…That in school textbooks, references to Christianity entail qualifiers such as “Christians believe Jesus is the son of God”…but that Muhammad is referred to WITHOUT QUALIFICATION as “a Prophet of God”.
Were you aware that Muslim advocacy groups were almost allowed to re-write history by claiming that Muslims discovered America. They attempted this by expropriating the history of the American Algonquian tribe…and that the only thing that stopped them was that members of that tribe protested and the Muslim advocacy groups were forced to back down (google it, Sherlock).
Does any of this bother you at all, or is your animus for the interjection of religion into the classroom reserved exclusively for Christianity?
3) Minnesoata, where are the holy water receptacles for Catholics at the Airport? This use of public money to build these foot-baths is a clear violation of the establishment clause…and the fact that you can’t recognize as much proves incontrovertibly that you know little of Constitutional law.
4) Cabbies can’t discriminate based on skin-color, can they? But according to you, they should be allowed to.
In fact, Minnesota outlawed this attempt at blatant discrimination practiced by Muslim cabbies…just as Florida fought back against the woman who wanted to drive with a license-picture of her face covered by the niqab. Both are examples of Muslim demands to transform American laws and ethics…and you are apparently utterly indifferent.
5) As for the OIC, again, you seem oblivious to the prospect that in time, international law may come to supersede national law. Eminent liberal jurists such as Ginzburg and justice Breyer have written that this is both desirable and inevitable. But like every thing else, you are clueless.
on September 1st, 2010 at 4:12 pm
#2 should read “adopting a Muslim name”
on September 1st, 2010 at 4:28 pm
Check it out, Ruslan. I wonder if such an article might make an impression on someone as astute and perceptive as yourself?
http://hnn.us/articles/6438.html
on September 1st, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Hey guys, I just do this part time. I dont have the time to do serious investigative research. What I read most everywhere is that moslems are responsible for high rates of violent crime wherever they are in dar el harb – sweden, denmark, netherlands, UK, even Australia.
The new book by the German central banker addresses all of this, and is receiving critical acclaim all over Europe. The MSM is highly critical, and yet, some survey I read today suggest that 70% of the “ordinary people” tend to agree with him.
You can cite all of the statistics you want, but the simple fact is that people on the ground are waking up to islam. And most dont seem to like what they see.
on September 1st, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Oh, so sorry. I went back and checked my emails, and the 70% in support of the book was not a survey. Rather it was a tally of emails in support of the book. From a friend of mine in Germany, please excuse the diction:
Hey the heat is on!
So funny, Mr. Sarrazin is a Member of our german Socialist Party called SPD. Of course the Boys in Berlin where not amused about this Book and the decide to kick he´s butt out of the SPD. What happens now is the real fun part because the whole Basis of the Party was writing more the 10K Emails (same amount for FAX and Letters) and you know what, over 90% where positiv about Mr. Sarrazin and the Book!! LOL when even our Socialists are agree you might get a taste how the vibrations are in Germany!
on September 1st, 2010 at 6:05 pm
Ruslan,
Here are examples of text book bias in our public schools. All the references to Christian beliefs are qualified with terms like “claimed”, “proclaimed”, “believed” (which is absolutely appropriate, in my humble opinion). The references to Muslim beliefs have no such qualifiers, as if they were fact (which is absolutely inappropriate, in my humble opinion).
—————————————————–
“A few days after Jesus had died on the cross and been buried, his apostles claimed that they had seen and talked with him. They believed that Jesus was indeed the messiah and had risen from the dead, or been resurrected.” — Global History and Geography: The Growth of Civilization, by Henry Brun, Lillian Forman and Herbert Brodsky, Amsco School Publications, Inc., 2008. P. 143
“Muhammad was the messenger of Allah.” — Global History and Geography: The Growth of Civilization, by Henry Brun, Lillian Forman and Herbert Brodsky, Amsco School Publications, Inc., 2008. P. 182
———-
“After the death of Jesus, his followers proclaimed that he had risen from death and had appeared to them. They believed Jesus to be the Messiah (anointed one)…” — World History by Jackson J. Spielvogel, McGraw Hill Glencoe, 2008. P. 170
“The revelations of Allah (God) to Muhammad are written down in the Quran, or holy book of Islam.” — World History by Jackson J. Spielvogel, McGraw Hill Glencoe, 2008. P. 210
———-
“The authors of the Gospels believed Jesus was the son of God…” — The Western Heritage Ninth Edition, by Donald Kagan, Steven Ozment and Frank M. Turner, Pearson Prentice Hall, 2007. P. 161
“[Muhammad] began to receive revelations from the angel Gabriel, who recited God’s word to him at irregular intervals.” — The Western Heritage Ninth Edition, by Donald Kagan, Steven Ozment and Frank M. Turner, Pearson Prentice Hall, 2007. P. 200
——————————–
So Ruslan, why your exclusive focus on the Christian corruption of our school curriculum?
on September 2nd, 2010 at 7:53 am
Ok so Lou bowed out once he came to the realization that statistics really don’t matter(after trying to use phony statistics which were debunked), I’ll deal with Chet’s magnum opus of fail.
“1) You seem to justify the blurring of church and state when it comes to Islam by pointing to examples of it happening vis-a-vis Christianity, as if two wrongs make a right. Hardly a position of intellectual integrity. Unlike you, I oppose ALL efforts to subvert the establishment clause.”
So do I. This is what we have courts for. This is irrelevant however, because the community center in NY in question involves private parties and not the government.
“2) Speaking of “controlling High School curriculum”, were you aware that a California Middle School district has students pronouncing the Muslim profession of faith, adopting a Muslim and wearing Muslim clothes, and creating a game about spiritual jihad? The US 9th circuit has actually ruled this to be “cultural” instead of religious, even though it includes the profession of faith.”
Again, we have courts for a reason. However, I’m guessing your story is largely alarmist propaganda.
“Were you also aware that Muslim-advocacy groups have taken over the form and content of how Islam is taught in our public schools?…That in school textbooks, references to Christianity entail qualifiers such as “Christians believe Jesus is the son of God”…but that Muhammad is referred to WITHOUT QUALIFICATION as “a Prophet of God”.”
Which textbook? Show us.
“Were you aware that Muslim advocacy groups were almost allowed to re-write history by claiming that Muslims discovered America. They attempted this by expropriating the history of the American Algonquian tribe…and that the only thing that stopped them was that members of that tribe protested and the Muslim advocacy groups were forced to back down (google it, Sherlock).”
If you can find something with Google, IT MUST BE TRUE!!! Actually there are a lot of theories of who discovered America, but for decades it was incorrectly billed as Colombus. We can let someone else screw up a couple times I’m sure. If there is any merit to these claims it’s no different than the so-called threat of Afrocentricism which was soundly debunked and faded into obscurity.
“3) Minnesoata, where are the holy water receptacles for Catholics at the Airport? This use of public money to build these foot-baths is a clear violation of the establishment clause…and the fact that you can’t recognize as much proves incontrovertibly that you know little of Constitutional law.”
First off, don’t forget this is all pointless because the Community center in NY is a private transaction, and therefore none of these controversies have any bearing on it. Second, many public places have religious worship areas of various sorts. Moreover, Catholics aren’t required to wash their feet as part of ritual prayers.
“4) Cabbies can’t discriminate based on skin-color, can they? But according to you, they should be allowed to.”
According to some laws and regulations of private companies. Again, what does this have to do with the right to build a community center with a prayer room in NYC? Oh right, NOTHING.
“In fact, Minnesota outlawed this attempt at blatant discrimination practiced by Muslim cabbies…just as Florida fought back against the woman who wanted to drive with a license-picture of her face covered by the niqab. Both are examples of Muslim demands to transform American laws and ethics…and you are apparently utterly indifferent.”
Yes, only Muslims want to change the constitution to fit their values. No other religious group has been doing this in America(and succeeding) for 30 years or so. You do realize that both these cases prove my point- the system regulates itself.
“5) As for the OIC, again, you seem oblivious to the prospect that in time, international law may come to supersede national law.”
Incorrect.
” Eminent liberal jurists such as Ginzburg and justice Breyer have written that this is both desirable and inevitable. But like every thing else, you are clueless.”
Oh if they write something it MUST be true!!! Sorry but a standardization of international law would be the downfall of the modern capitalist system.
Chet, you have lost because you lost track of what the debate is about- the constitutional right of private properties to build a community center. All of your stories, even if we accepted them as 100% genuine, are totally irrelevant in this case.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 8:44 am
All in all I see this creeping “Sharia” paranoia as no different than NWO/universal gun bans/one world government/martial law conspiracy theories. What do they all have in common? They’ve all been “RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER” for years, even decades in most cases.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 9:16 am
Ruslan,
On the contrary, I WON because I’ve proven that this issue is NOT about constitutionality, it’s about reciprocity, fair play, and basic right and wrong. I’ve proven that Muslim DEMANDS for accommodation and respect are pervasive in our society. The expectation of reciprocity is an entirely legitimate call.
Meanwhile, your responses continue to be feeble.
1) The California middle school story is absolutely true. You know nothing about it because apparently, you’re uninterested in anything that doesn’t validate your world-view.
2) I documented the text-book bias before you even asked for documentation. (post at 6:05, Sept 1)
3) No, cabbies CANNOT legally discriminate against fair-riders. You apparently know nothing about law.
4) The system doesn’t necessarily regulate itself. Multicultural sensitivities are undermining the fight to maintain the establishment clause. The 9th circuit ruling is a perfect case in point…(interesting how the ACLU – normally so adamant of about litigating against any blurring of church and state – decided to sit this one out; I guess like you, they feel if the transgressors are Muslims, there is a different standard and its nothing to worry about).
Checkmate!
on September 2nd, 2010 at 9:40 am
Oh Chet now it’s just getting said.
“On the contrary, I WON because I’ve proven that this issue is NOT about constitutionality, it’s about reciprocity, fair play, and basic right and wrong.”
Nope, it’s about constitutionality.
” I’ve proven that Muslim DEMANDS for accommodation and respect are pervasive in our society. The expectation of reciprocity is an entirely legitimate call.”
And Christian DEMANDS for accomodation have been far more pervasive and successful for far longer. Again, this is a matter of private property and the constitution.
“1) The California middle school story is absolutely true. You know nothing about it because apparently, you’re uninterested in anything that doesn’t validate your world-view.”
Source please.
“2) I documented the text-book bias before you even asked for documentation. (post at 6:05, Sept 1)”
How many textsbooks is this in? Do you also complain about Texas versions of textbooks?
“3) No, cabbies CANNOT legally discriminate against fair-riders. You apparently know nothing about law.”
Then those Muslims who attempt to discriminate will be fired. Religious freedom has limits, which is why Rastafarians aren’t allowed to smoke Marijuana legally.
“4) The system doesn’t necessarily regulate itself. Multicultural sensitivities are undermining the fight to maintain the establishment clause.”
Actually I’d say it has mostly been evangelical protestants on the forefront of this. If the Muslims make any headway it will be because of their pioneering work.
“Checkmate!”
More like, fail, actually.
Again, every single case you mention has ZERO relevance to Park 51.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 11:06 am
Lou does the book by Mr. Sarrazin include the anti-semitic comments that have led to calls for his dismissal from the Bundesbank board? http://online.wsj.com/article/.....lenews_wsj Are you confusing critical acclaim and criticism? I submit that it is your duty as a citizen to “do serious investigative research” before suggesting that we ignore the constitution of the United States because “people on the ground…dont seem to like what they see.”
Chet have you actually seen the “documentation” you’ve cited or are you simply parroting what you’ve read on jihadwatch? Based on your history of fair and balanced comments here I’m sure you wouldn’t try to deceive us by taking something out of context but perhaps you have been deceived by others. For instance, another way to cite your first example would be as follows:
“Jesus was indeed the messiah and had risen from the dead, or been resurrected.” — Global History and Geography: The Growth of Civilization, by Henry Brun, Lillian Forman and Herbert Brodsky, Amsco School Publications, Inc., 2008. P. 143
“Muhammad was the messenger of Allah.” — Global History and Geography: The Growth of Civilization, by Henry Brun, Lillian Forman and Herbert Brodsky, Amsco School Publications, Inc., 2008. P. 182
I’m sure privacy concerns prevent you from revealing the name or location of the “California middle school district” but rulings of the US Ninth District Circuit Court are a matter of public record so perhaps you could look here http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/opinions/ and find the ruling you are referring to.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Ruslan and Mitch, here is the documentation on the California Middle School district….
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=54522
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/sto.....id=3553898
Ruslan,
In strictly legal terms, the mosque advocates have the Constitution on their side. I’ve never denied this. Your insistence that this is the ONLY factor in the equation is a subjective opinion, as is my insistence that it is much, much more. The difference between us is that I’m open minded enough to acknowledge as much.
My position is that this issue has profound political and emotional overtones in New York and around the nation that are undeniable. If this issue is resolved in the courts, then it should be rightly decided in favor of the mosque. If it resolved in the court of public opinion, then the mosque advocates should take a page from their own book about societal “sensitivity” and look for another location.
How sad you can’t see as much.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 3:21 pm
It is the only factor in this equation. This is no different than a Muslim(or anyone else) buying property to build, say, a restaurant. Incidentally, it happens to be a community center with a prayer room.
Second, your sources don’t seem to be too reliable. When we look at the ABC source it seems pretty innocuous. Yes, the teacher over-stepped the line, but the court didn’t endorse what she did. Apparently learning world religions is mandatory(which is not necessarily endorsing religion), but that doesn’t mean that this particular teacher didn’t go too far.
How is this part of a huge conspiracy?
on September 2nd, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Chet, thanks for the reference. This makes it clear that what happened in the school was that children play-acted at being Muslims. The judge ruled, rightly in my opinion, that this did not constitute the practice of religion. Those who brought the case to court objected that this constitutes a “double standard” but it seems clear to me that play-acting to gain sensitivity toward a culture or religion is quite different from practicing your own religion or, as the plaintiffs seemed to believe the school was doing, promoting a particular religion.
I presume you also were opposed to the publication of cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed as a pig because of the sensitivity issues involved. I certainly hope you don’t support the fatwah!
on September 2nd, 2010 at 6:45 pm
Chet,
Wow! Are you that anti-muslim? Now, going back to what you’ve said to me, ‘you are un-American.’ My question to you, why is it, anytime someone disagrees with the Right, we are labeled un-American?
I, by the way, am not un-American. I just happened to think outside the box, and, of course, have empathy. At the same time, I am a kinda ‘in-your-face girl,’ especially when you try to get me to conform to your way of thinking when I know it’s wrong. Again, I have raised questions about how can people from the Right, as well as people that are anti-Muslim continue to support the republican party – when in fact, there are practicing Muslims that are republicans. What is it that you really believe in – just being a winner? Meaning as long as the republicans gain power you don’t care?
I think it is unfair, as well as unhealthy to continue on with your complaints about Muslims. Did you complain about the ‘illegal immigrants’ from Central America & Mexico? For the past few years now, I have been telling people that complain about Mexico that the day will come when they may need to go south of the border!
I think it is time for you to call it quits – Ruslan won this one BIG TIME.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 7:01 pm
Gentlemen, just keep reciting “Islam is peace” by rote….and sleep real comfy.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Mitch,
you missed the boat entirely on the textbooks. Your example of “Jesus was indeed the massiah…” was exactly point. They DIDN’T say as much, they qualified the claims of Christians with “Believe”, “claim”, etc…as was appropriate in a secular classroom. But there was no such qualifier for Muslim claims. How is this too hard to understand?
PS – Did YOU support the right of the cartoonists to depict Muhammad?
Ruslan,
Can you imagine for a moment Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs compelled to take Christian names, dress like Christians, cry out the Christian equivalent of “Allah O Akbar”, etc in public school? You and every other proponent of multiculturalism would be outraged. But because it was done on behalf of another culture, it’s all good fun and games.
Gentlemen, you’re both obviously intelligent individuals. How telling that you stubbornly cling to your willful denial. Christian fundamentalism certainly has its dangers, but it pales in scope and degree to its Muslim variant. Neither of you exhibit any comprehension of this reality.
I wish you both well, and sincerely hope that someday you’ll awaken from your slumber.
on September 2nd, 2010 at 9:10 pm
PS – Mitch, as “offenses” go, I and most Americans categorize the mass murder of 3000 people as ever so slightly more egregious than a cartoon drawing of a prophet.
on September 3rd, 2010 at 9:28 am
“Can you imagine for a moment Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs compelled to take Christian names, dress like Christians, cry out the Christian equivalent of “Allah O Akbar”, etc in public school? You and every other proponent of multiculturalism would be outraged. But because it was done on behalf of another culture, it’s all good fun and games.”
Until I get a detailed account of what actually went on in that classroom, I cannot make a ruling on this. What I do believe is that a history teacher was trying to actually get the children involved in history, which in general is a great idea. Perhaps she went too far in this case. But let’s also not forget that children are and have been “compelled” to do a lot of stupid stuff in the class-room.
Oh I almost forgot- this is totally irrelevant to the building of Park 51, because this “reciprocity” you speak of has nothing to do with US law or the constitution.
“Gentlemen, you’re both obviously intelligent individuals. How telling that you stubbornly cling to your willful denial. Christian fundamentalism certainly has its dangers, but it pales in scope and degree to its Muslim variant. Neither of you exhibit any comprehension of this reality.”
No, Christian fundemantalism does not pale in comparison, because it has far deeper roots in this country and it has far more access to power.
“PS – Mitch, as “offenses” go, I and most Americans categorize the mass murder of 3000 people as ever so slightly more egregious than a cartoon drawing of a prophet.”
Is this an admission that you see all Muslims as terrorists?
And as for the cartoons, a lot of people in the Muslim world foolishly overreacted to them and made themselves look bad. This is mainly because if some of them hadn’t reacted so badly, they would have held the moral high ground by default. These cartoons of Mohammed aren’t just about depicting Mohammed. I could draw a picture of Mohammed that would be haram on principle, but normal and dignified. These people don’t want that. They want to draw offensive stereotypical, degrading pictures of Mohammed. I support their free speech and all, but I also don’t believe they deserve the label freedom fighter or whatever nonsense they call themselves. They are no different than racists who draw caricatures of blacks, Jews, Mexicans, and what-not.
on September 3rd, 2010 at 10:09 am
Is there a school district in California that doesn’t include “Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs?” How many children have dressed up as “pilgrims” (not the haji kind) at Thanksgiving? I disagree with Ruslan about the cartoons. Practicing a religion or believing that someone should be killed because they drew a picture is a “lifestyle choice.” No “special rights” for Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, or Republicans!
Chet if you don’t care to be sensitive towards Muslims how can you put forward an argument that they should be sensitive to your paranoid fears and hatred? It is perhaps you and your comrades who should wake up to the way your opposition to the exercise of religious freedom fans the flames of hatred in the Muslim world and highlights American hypocrisy to everyone else. Frankly I don’t much care if you and everyone else in the whole wide world believes that the attack on September 11 is the worst thing that’s ever happened, throwing the Constitution out the window now is as bad an idea as it was when the Bush administration suspended habeas corpus.
on September 3rd, 2010 at 10:16 am
Regarding the textbooks the point is that you have no idea of the context of the phrases excerpted by jihadwatch. For all you and I know Global History and Geography: The Growth of Civilization might have said that:
Among other ridicuolous notions Muslims believe that:
Pigs fly.
The moon is made of green cheese.
Muhammad was the messenger of Allah.
on September 3rd, 2010 at 10:54 am
RUSLAN: “Is this an admission that you see all Muslims as terrorists?”
Not in the least. It’s an admission that those who attacked us on Sept 11 were Muslims and that they made copious and detailed use of Islam’s canonical texts to justify their mass murder.
RUSLAN: “No, Christian fundemantalism does not pale in comparison, because it has far deeper roots in this country and it has far more access to power.”
No acknowledgment here of the profound difference in ethics and substance between the teachings of Jesus (as documented in the Gospel) and those of Muhammad (as documented in the Quran, Hadith and the Sirat Rasul)…that there is a secular essence to the message of the former (“render unto Ceasar”), while there is none to be found in the message of the latter…that there are numerous countries governed in part or en toto by Islamic law (Sharia), but none anywhere governed by “Christian law”.
Anyway, thanks for the discourse. It was quite informative for me (though probably not in the way you might think). Best of luck in your endeavors.
on September 3rd, 2010 at 2:12 pm
People can twist religious scripture to mean anything. Yes, it is true that according to Islam, there should be no separation between church and state, but this of course isn’t how things really worked out in the past. In fact, they don’t really work out that way now except on paper. Moreover, the Christian dominionists also claim no separation of church and state, the difference being that Muslims acknowledge this concept as being the law of the land in the US whether they like it at all, whereas the former pretend the founders’ never believed it.
That being said, there are many more backward religious doctrines which receive almost no attention at all. Take Tibetan Buddhism for example, which is often looked at as totally peaceful. The real history is far darker.
This goes to show that religious dominance in society in general is a problem, but what many atheists don’t understand is that you don’t defeat religion by focusing on it and attacking it. Islamophobia has done little more than hurt innocent people and fed the flames of fanaticism. The manufactured struggle between the Islamic and non-Muslim world has created a situation where poor, exploited Muslims find some kind of false solidarity with a dishonest ruling class. Instead of noticing the terrible conditions in their own countries, they feel they must rally to the defense of Islam.
Likewise, while Americans fear the Islamic world, they too vote against their own interests.
on September 3rd, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Chet,
There you go again! If you google “Mike or Mohammad,” you will see that, yes, they sometimes will use ‘christian names.’ This talks about Muslims that apply for jobs, that when they use Mohammad or Muhammad, they are not called back for an interview, yet, it they use the name Mike on an application, they are called back.
As far as the schools in California, did you check to see which Congressional district it was in? But again, who cares? As I stated before, when people migrate to this country, they want to bring their culture with them. Example, they want their foodstuffs – hence, you have stores/restaurants that target Vietnamese, Middle Eastern, Chinese, Mexican, Caribbean, Brazilian, Italian…..
on September 3rd, 2010 at 3:39 pm
Skinnyminny,
There’s quite a difference between culinary diversity and cultural differences that include polygamy and legalized discrimination against women. I love Mexican and Chinese food, I like Latin and African music, I have an appreciation of the beauty of exotic women (I married outside of my race).
But I have a problem with inheritance laws that discriminate against women (Quran, 4.11), legal strictures that confine a woman’s testimony to the worth of HALF that of a man, (Quran 2.282), edicts that elevate man over women (Quran 2.228), and legalized spousal abuse (Quran 4.34). These are not theoretical concepts and/or allegory like those you might find in the old testament, they are – according to Muslims – immutable commandments from God that are etched in stone for all eternity. In short, they are the LAW.
Your feel-good multiculturalism takes none of this into account. Please inform yourself. You may have been taught in university that America is an institutionally sexist, racist country, but the reality is, women and racial minorities from other countries continue to flock here because of the opportunities and freedoms afforded them. I would hate to be a woman or a religious minority in the Islamic realm…and my guess is, you would too.
on September 3rd, 2010 at 3:56 pm
RUSLAN: “Take Tibetan Buddhism for example, which is often looked at as totally peaceful. The real history is far darker.”
Indeed. Somehow, I don’t see Tibetan Buddhism as a global movement with millions of extremists, killing thousands every year. Maybe I just missed that one.
RUSLAN: “The manufactured struggle between the Islamic and non-Muslim world…”
RESPONSE: Actually, that “manufactured Struggle” has been a fact of life since the inception of Islam. The only respites were periods when Islam was eclipsed by the West and so temporarily abandoned their Jihad imperative.
RUSLAN: “…has created a situation where poor, exploited Muslims find some kind of false solidarity with a dishonest ruling class. Instead of noticing the terrible conditions in their own countries, they feel they must rally to the defense of Islam.”
RESPONSE: Ahhhh yes, that old familiar refrain, ‘it’s all about poverty’.
Except that it’s not. An impovershed subsistence farmer in Pakistan is less likely to be a violent Jihadi than an educated engineer in Egypt. All the 9-11 hijackers were educated and middle class; the leadership of most major extremist organizations are middle class or affluent; all the major professional guilds in Egypt – law, medicine, engineering – have elected fundamentalist leadership.
But I don’t expect you to know any of this.
on September 3rd, 2010 at 6:08 pm
Chet,
It is the same thing! A good example, most Muslims don’t eat pork. Whereas Americans eat pork.
Now to use the excuse that women don’t have any rights, they are dominated by men…..this just doesn’t happen in Islamic countries. I’ve had several Chinese neighbors, and at times I get the impression they cannot join the conversation without permission from their husband. I’ve worked with Korean women that need permission from their husbands to spend money. But who are we (Americans) kidding, this can happen in any country, including here. I’ve also had neighbors from India, and it appears the husband must approve of who the wife speaks to – as well, it appears they also don’t like the police.
Again, there are some good things about Islam as well as bad, but that’s with all religions. One good thing about Islam, depending on the country, some women must be chaparoned on dates, a man is not to enter a home if the women is alone (or, if the woman’s hair is uncovered) – in this country, it’s the opposite, and the women are often sexually assaulted. In Islam, if a woman is without a husband, then most times a son, brother, uncle…will take the responsibility of the woman, in this country it is the opposite and women are frequently victim of non-related/related men who either scam/manipulate…the woman. I’ve met women from Latin America that are fearful of their husbands – then I later saw that yes, SOMETIMES this is with good reason. But this is the same here in America, there are spouses that are fearful of the other, whether it’s male or female.
So again, in every religion, country, culture, there are things we agree with and things we do not. I am bringing this to your attention, because, as it stands, some of the practices of Islam is also the same with Hinduism – example, if a daughter or son marry someone other than what the parents approve of, it can mean death for the outsider or the daughter of the Indian family.
on September 3rd, 2010 at 6:24 pm
Chet your feel bad uniculturalism assumes that all Muslims believe the same nonsense. Different Muslims, like different Jews or different Christians, have different nonsensical ideas of immutable truths. We would all be better off if we could each let our truths be more “mutable.” I challenge you to read http://30mosques.com/ where the most recent post shows photos of a tiny mosque in Ross, North Dakota, where Syrians settled in the late 19th century, and graves that look just like the ones my German Lutheran grandparents are buried in and continue to spew your hateful invective which, in classic racist, xenophobic fashion, portrays all Muslims as if they were as bad as the worst Muslims.
on September 3rd, 2010 at 8:33 pm
Skinny,
Your denial is mind-boggling and depressing.
Of course there is sexism in every culture, but only in Islam is that sexism codified into law (the examples I cited in my post at 3:39PM).
Here in America and elsewhere in the non-Muslim world, men sometimes beat their wives, but there are laws that penalize such behavior with jail time, restraining orders, etc. In Islam – as per Quran 4.34, it is perfectly legal.
As for honor killings, worldwide, they are overwhelmingly committed by Muslims (and for the record, India has a huge Muslim population). It was only after the large-scale Muslim immigration into Europe, America and Canada over the last 20 years that we began to see cases of honor killings regularly in the West. Britain alone had over 17,000 honor crimes last year (mostly beatings and assaults, but a smattering of killings). Almost all were attributed to Muslim immigrants.
Interesting how in Britain, Sikhs and Hindus have integrated so nicely. On average, they earn as much as native Brits and have a similar percentage of their people on welfare. But Muslims from Pakistan and Bangladesh are far less willing to integrate, have far lower incomes, and a far higher percentage of their people on welfare.
Why is this? The Islamo-Left blames it on discrimination. But Hindus and Sikhs are ethnically identical to Pakistanis and yet, they’ve prospered in their new society. The only difference is religion. Instead of blaming the Brits, couldn’t the blame lie with Muslims themselves and their cultural/religious proclivities?
It’s so bad now that Hindus and Sikhs in Britain wish to be identified in the media by their RELIGION because the established moniker – “Asian” – associates them with Muslims, which they resent…NOT because of fears of discrimination, but because of their own disdain for Muslim behavior…behavior such as riots in the early 90s throughout northern Britain, constant angry demonstrations and public expressions of disaffection and supremacism.
It’s eerily similar in France. Indochinese immigrants and those from sub-Sahara Africa are integrating nicely, doing quite well economically and otherwise. But Muslim immigrants from North Africa are perpetually disaffected, frequently rioting and burning cars (by the thousands last year), and stubbornly unwilling to integrate.
I’m not for a minute saying all Muslims are bad. I’m just pointing out the obvious, that Islamic religion/culture is uniquely resistant to integration and at its heart, is fundamentally incompatible with a free society. This is one reason there are so few Democracies in the Islamic world (Turkey is the only one I can think of, and its secular freedoms are being steadily constricted by the elected Islamist government).
Islam presents a HUGE problem and challenge to Western concepts of democratic secularism and gender equality. That’s all I’m asking you to acknowledge. It pains me that you are unable to do so.
You won’t awaken until you’re good and ready. That may be months, years, or never. Anyway, I wish you the best.
on September 3rd, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Ruslan,
You always make an intelligent argument and I applaud you for using your full name. So far you have kept your personal insults to a minimum and ridiculed my ideas. This is acceptable in a debate and encourages a continuance.
As far as property ‘rights’ are concerned, simple logic would tell you that if a government entity can compel you to do or not do something to your property, or even confiscate it, then you have no ‘right’ to it regardless of the wisdom of regulation or a court’s opinion. You can, if you like assert your ‘right’ to property when it is threatened but only if you have the wealth to do so. Even then you cannot be sure of the outcome in court. Therefore, if your property is never secure, then you do not have a right to it. Stop paying your property taxes and see how it goes.
You have no ‘right’ to practice your religion either. You argue well and give many examples of your own experience in observing people practicing their faith freely. I only have to cite one instance where religious practice was forbidden, asserted and lost in court to prove there is no religious freedom, only a privilege you may or may not be granted. And I can do that multiple times.
Of course, total freedom and unrestricted ‘rights’ make up the concept of anarchy. This is as dangerous as totalitarianism. We make compromises on our ‘rights’ to avoid anarchy. The point I am making is that we allow third parties to determine the extent of our rights to anything. It is the strength of the debate that will influence the decision maker. So far the Cordoba Mosque is losing the debate, but as we have all seen, it only takes one arrogant judge to deny ‘the will of the people’.
Reading the minds of Muslims to ascertain how they see things isn’t necessary when they record their thoughts in books, histories, opinions and other means of expression. Islam has not had its reformation. Christianity was just as barbaric 500 years ago and ruled Europe as a Theocracy. It had its own version of Sharia and was every bit as brutal. But it did reform itself. We can see pockets of that effort in Islam, mainly from its women. It does them no good to keep excusing the radicals because most Muslims sit on the fence waiting for a winner. So far the radicals have the upper hand.
You cannot be a Sharia compliant Muslim and a loyal American citizen. But you can be a reformed Muslim and respect the laws and traditions of this country.
on September 4th, 2010 at 12:41 am
“Indeed. Somehow, I don’t see Tibetan Buddhism as a global movement with millions of extremists, killing thousands every year. Maybe I just missed that one.”
Actually you are missing something because Islam doesn’t have “millions of extremists”, nor are they killing thousands every year. Let me ask you something, when you are browsing your anti-Islamic sites, do you ever ask yourself, “did I check to see if this information is accurate?”
“RESPONSE: Actually, that “manufactured Struggle” has been a fact of life since the inception of Islam. The only respites were periods when Islam was eclipsed by the West and so temporarily abandoned their Jihad imperative.”
Incorrect. Islam has never been a monolithic movement since death of Mohammed. You need to study history better rather than sites that purposely cherry-pick in order to create an idea of a never-ending struggle with Islam.
“Except that it’s not. An impovershed subsistence farmer in Pakistan is less likely to be a violent Jihadi than an educated engineer in Egypt. All the 9-11 hijackers were educated and middle class; the leadership of most major extremist organizations are middle class or affluent; ”
Would be significant were it not for the fact that the overwhelming majority of jihadis ARE in fact poor. Of course they usually end up killing Caucasians, Russians, Indians, Israelis, in other words, people you don’t care about.
“all the major professional guilds in Egypt – law, medicine, engineering – have elected fundamentalist leadership.
Here’s the part where I ask you for proof.
on September 4th, 2010 at 3:01 am
Chet,
first off, let me say that I am not Muslim, nor is anyone in my family Muslim. So, let’s make that clear! Not that there’s anything wrong with being Muslim, I am just saying that I am not, I am agnostic.
You related to us that you have done some research on Islam/Sharia….let me give you a little direction, or should I say some tips. Google this name (it may come back in a variety of spellings) Syyed Qytub/Syed Qytub/Saed Qytub from Egypt. Here you will find that this was the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood. He studied in Texas before you or I was born. This is the guy that originally had a problem with the U.S. before being imprisoned in Egypt. So, this being a problem didn’t just start within the last decade. Then also, I think this name is correct, Leila Khalid, she was the first female Palestinian highjacker, who have taken refuge in Egypt. So, again, this is interesting how people listen to word of mouth, or rumors and run with it not knowing all the facts or history. Here I am referring to some of the protesters that have appeared against the mosques in the U.S.
Did you know that some Americans where kidnapped by Muslims in the Philippines around 9-11? Did you know that CCTV (Chinese cable news) recently, about a week ago, reported two navy personnel missing in Philippines? I don’t understand why is it that Muslims in the Middle East are not given a pass, while Muslims in Philippines and other Asian countries are! But again, that’s the problem here in America, we tend to rotate and take turns on who is flavor of the moment. Yet, when it comes to blacks, it doesn’t matter what country they are from, to America, they are all treated the same, badly.
on September 4th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Chet,
Okay, here we go again. I haven’t had time to go and do research, nor am I intending to do research on this.
Depressing and mind-blogling as you say. However, did you ever stop to think that maybe the integration issues have more reasons than you say. For instance, more Pakistanis are of a darker skin color. Yet, if you attend the colleges, there are more Pakistanis in the Math department. If I’m not mistaken, a Pakistani is who started the edible fruit baskets – you know the fruit cut into shapes and set up like a flower arrangement. Also, I believe it was a Pakistani who developed and started the ceramic hair straightener – you know, like the crimp irons. And lastly, if I’m not mistaken, it was a Pakistani who bought the pro-ball team that Limbaugh was unable to buy because of the outrage with his racist ways.
India, well, Britain, Portugal and Spain has a big influence on this country – try looking into Goa. Hindus are considered the ruling class of India. India still have a caste system. Although there are some Hindus of darker skin, meaning they are not at all the lighter skin with hazel eyes, they are still considered above some of the others. Personally, I like the Sikhs better – my opinion and interaction, the Sikhs are more like christians, or should I say more friendly and they help people in need. My experience and/or opinion of Hindus, I think they are arrogant and hostile and they remind me of the racist whites.
on September 4th, 2010 at 1:21 pm
Okay Chet,
You bring up France. BTW, my understanding is that the rioters you speak of are first generation French citizens – their parents immigrated as workers. Yet, these kids of immigrants feel they are not able to receive any benefits of being a French citizen. I guess, the parents stayed on after working. The same thing can happen here. This country have used foreign worker recruiters the past 10 years displacing American workers under the pretext “jobs American won’t do.”
You say that this domination doesn’t happen in America and not law? Have you looked into some of the churches in the Southern states – some of these churches believe they only follow God’s law, and yes, children as well as adults are beaten into submission, and these are wives as well as fellow church members. They must follow and obey the church or else.
on September 4th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
RUSLAN: “Incorrect. Islam has never been a monolithic movement since death of Mohammed.”
RESPONSE: I never said it was. It was wracked by a succession crises from the get-go, which formed the basis of the Shia-Sunni schism. But this in no way detracts from my original assertion, that Islam has been at war with the non-Muslim world continually since its inception. They only exception was the 19th and 20th centuries, when the West eclipsed Islam to such an extent that Jihad was temporarily abandoned as a survival mechanism (though even in this period, there was a degree of conflict).
RUSLAN: “Here’s the part where I ask you for proof.”
RESPONSE: Read it and weep. Your ‘poverty is the root cause’ canard simply doesn’t hold water…..
http://www.tuftsgloballeadersh.....erhood.pdf
“By the Mid 1980s, the Muslim Brotherhood….submitted a list of candidates for the election of leadership within the country’s NATIONAL PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS and SUCCEEDED in GAINING A CONTROLLING MAJORITY on the boards of several associations.”
“Changes wrought by the Islamic leadership, upon its initial occupation of a seat MAJORITY on the ASSOCIATION‘S EXECUTIVE BOARDS, were both practical and symbolic.”
“The movement {Muslim Brotherhood) emerged from the 80s as a LEADING FORCE in Egyptian society; the THOUSANDS OF PROFESSIONALS within the associations that connected to the Muslim Brotherhood volunteered their time….”
“The PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS gave the Brotherhood activist the opportunity to hone their leadership skills…”
“By the early 90s, EGYPT’S PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS remained among the major sites of Islamic political experimentation….”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2280.....-the-Egypt
“1995 Egyptian Syndicates:
Doctors….20 of 23 seats were Islamist; Engineers……45 of 61 seats; Scientists…..17 0f 25 seats; Pharmacists…….17 of 25 seats; Lawyers….18 of 25 seats.”
RUSLAN: “Actually you are missing something because Islam doesn’t have “millions of extremists”, nor are they killing thousands every year.”
RESPONSE: OK, there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Jihadists killing over a THOUSAND every year. We should all sleep easier, eh?…
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm
Examine the number of Islamic terrorist groups in the list. Multiply that number by membership. If it’s not in the millions, it’s certainly in the hundreds of thousands. Then you can add those unaffiliated Muslims in places like Egypt and Indonesia that episodically riot and murder Christians and other non-Muslims over issues large and small (sometimes in protest over the existence of unofficial churches that Christians must resort to for lack of building permits for bonafide churches).
http://www.thereligionofpeace......heList.htm
Since 911, the average number of victims of Islamic terrorism is between 4 and 5 a day, which translates to well over 1000 a year. You may not like the source, but I challenge you to contest the actual documentary evidence.
RUSLAN: ” Of course they usually end up killing Caucasians, Russians, Indians, Israelis, in other words, people you don’t care about.”
RESPONSE: Completely unfair. Why is it liberals must resort to personal put-downs when engaged in political discourse? Is it the frustration of not being able to mount an effective argument?
on September 5th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
Skinny,
For Ruslan, those Tibetan Buddhists are every bit as dangerous as Radical Muslims…and for you, Muslims good, Sikhs good, Hindus, baaaad….(and good God folks, beware of those Southern Christians!)
An informed, objective observer would be shaking his/her head in incredulity.
on September 6th, 2010 at 4:22 am
But you didn’t provide proof Chet, you provided one report that talked specifically about the Muslim brotherhood, also forgetting that the status of a “professional” in Egypt is far different than one in the US or Europe. Bottom line is that most of the jihadist who will actually pick up a gun and fight, or blow themselves up, are poor people with little to nothing to lose.
Your other source is a well-known Islamophobic source. The burden of proof is on them to support their claim, not on me to disprove it.
on September 6th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Actually since Christians of various stripes have caused far more pain, suffering, and death in American history than Muslims in that continent, I think it’s appropriate to focus on their actions.
on December 3rd, 2010 at 11:51 pm
And this sort of self-glorious, deliberate hatred and ignorance is why I will probably never again see my homeland again. You see, I’m a Caucasian American. I grew up in California, the son of eighth- and tenth-generation Americans. I went to college, served in the Navy, got out, had a good career going in software development. I had been a strong Roman Catholic until the early- to mid-1990s, when it became apparent that those who would take the Church back to a period of authoritarian ignorance were winning the all-out war against enlightened, reasoned faith. I spent thirty years studying theology and Church history… to the point where, when the two trends (Church and learning) converged, I found myself profoundly separated from Catholicism, and Christianity in general. But I had a “problem”… I had this very strong, clear faith in God. I drifted for a couple of years, and found Islam. I reverted to Sunni Islam in May, 1998.
And promptly lost my job.
I had that happen two more times in the next four years. I’ve been spit upon, had fecal matter thrown in my face and into the gas tank of my car, and been shot at. I’ve had bricks (with King James Bibles tied on) thrown through my apartment window and through my car window. I woke up one morning to find my door and the entire outside of my car layered in lard.
And this was while living in a large, “liberal, progressive” American city.
I’ve been moving around Asia as work permits (Vietnam, Malaysia, China, Singapore) and have never, ever run into that sort of full-bore religious hatred since. (Racial bigotry, well… but that’s a different story altogether.) Few if any of my Muslim friends in Asia, even in countries that nominally frown on Islam (like Vietnam), have ever gone through the sort of hell that has been par for the course in the current “Taster’s Choice commercial” version of America, and become dramatically worse since 2001.
I miss home. But I’m absolutely convinced that, to whatever small degree the country that I grew up in still exists, that things are going to get far, far worse before they get better. Precisely how that’s possible, I can’t say. But experience and study have taught me that it’s ALWAYS possible; all that’s required is for the extremists to run roughshod while the ordinary people do nothing whatever to stop them.