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Wave of Hate Crimes Directed at Muslims Breaks Out

By Heidi Beirich on August 26, 2010 - 1:32 pm, Posted in Anti-Muslim

A string of attacks against Muslims and their religious centers has broken out over the past few weeks, apparently inspired by the protests in New York City over the planned Muslim community center and mosque near where the 9/11 attacks took place. Leaders of those protests have repeatedly made hateful statements against Muslims and Islam, with the National Republican Trust Political Action Committee, for example, saying the center is meant “to celebrate [the] murder of 3,000 Americans.”

The apparent resurgence of anti-Muslim hate crimes followed a long decline that began after a major outbreak in the immediate aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center (more below).

The most violent of these attacks took place on Tuesday in New York City, when 21-year-old film student Michael Enright allegedly attacked a cab driver. Police said that Enright cursed out the cabby after asking him if he was Muslim and then slashed his throat and stabbed him in several places when he answered in the affirmative. Enright was charged with hate crimes on Wednesday.

In California also on Tuesday, Imam Abdullah Salem arrived at the Madera Islamic Center to find two menacing signs, one of which read, “Wake up America, the enemy is here.” It was the latest in a recent string of attacks on the center, including a brick thrown at the building on Sunday and a sign posted the prior week that read, “No temple for the God of terrorism at Ground Zero.”

Yesterday evening, a drunk man entered a Queens mosque, shouting anti-Muslim slurs while urinating on prayer rugs, according to the New York Post. The man, identified by police as Omar Rivera, also allegedly shouted slurs, calling the worshippers “terrorists.”

These incidents are just the latest in a series of anti-Muslim attacks that have taken place over the course of the past year. On May 12, a Muslim community center was firebombed while filled with people. Approximately 60 worshipers were at The Islamic Center of Northeast Florida in Jacksonville when a pipe bomb went off around 9:35 p.m. It caused a small fire in the back of the building, but no one was injured. The FBI released surveillance video of what appeared to be a middle-aged white man carrying a gasoline container in the area of the bombing. Investigators believe he is connected to the attack. Another surveillance video was released that showed a different man who entered the mosque April 4 and shouted anti-Islam epithets. Neither man has been found.

FBI national hate crime statistics for years showed very little anti-Muslim hate crime violence. In 1995, the first year for complete FBI hate crime statistics, there were 29 anti-Muslim hate crimes recorded; that stayed about level through 2000, when there were 28. But in 2001, the 9/11 attacks spurred a 17-fold growth in hate crimes to 481, according to the FBI. At least three people and as many as eight were murdered in anti-Muslim attacks in the months immediately after the attacks, according to press reports. At around the same time, however, President Bush gave an important speech, saying Islam was not the enemy, and hate crimes the following year, 2002, dropped to 155. That number essentially declined slowly until 2008, when there were 105 anti-Muslim hate crimes recorded. Those are the latest statistics available.

The FBI statistics are known to severely understate the total number of hate crimes. According to a Department of Justice study, the real level of reported and unreported hate crimes is between 20 and 30 times higher than the numbers that are published. However, the trends the numbers show are believed to be accurate.

For more on recent anti-Muslim violence, read our recent round up in the Intelligence Report.

  • Jeff in Singapore

    And this sort of self-glorious, deliberate hatred and ignorance is why I will probably never again see my homeland again. You see, I’m a Caucasian American. I grew up in California, the son of eighth- and tenth-generation Americans. I went to college, served in the Navy, got out, had a good career going in software development. I had been a strong Roman Catholic until the early- to mid-1990s, when it became apparent that those who would take the Church back to a period of authoritarian ignorance were winning the all-out war against enlightened, reasoned faith. I spent thirty years studying theology and Church history… to the point where, when the two trends (Church and learning) converged, I found myself profoundly separated from Catholicism, and Christianity in general. But I had a “problem”… I had this very strong, clear faith in God. I drifted for a couple of years, and found Islam. I reverted to Sunni Islam in May, 1998.

    And promptly lost my job.

    I had that happen two more times in the next four years. I’ve been spit upon, had fecal matter thrown in my face and into the gas tank of my car, and been shot at. I’ve had bricks (with King James Bibles tied on) thrown through my apartment window and through my car window. I woke up one morning to find my door and the entire outside of my car layered in lard.

    And this was while living in a large, “liberal, progressive” American city.

    I’ve been moving around Asia as work permits (Vietnam, Malaysia, China, Singapore) and have never, ever run into that sort of full-bore religious hatred since. (Racial bigotry, well… but that’s a different story altogether.) Few if any of my Muslim friends in Asia, even in countries that nominally frown on Islam (like Vietnam), have ever gone through the sort of hell that has been par for the course in the current “Taster’s Choice commercial” version of America, and become dramatically worse since 2001.

    I miss home. But I’m absolutely convinced that, to whatever small degree the country that I grew up in still exists, that things are going to get far, far worse before they get better. Precisely how that’s possible, I can’t say. But experience and study have taught me that it’s ALWAYS possible; all that’s required is for the extremists to run roughshod while the ordinary people do nothing whatever to stop them.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Actually since Christians of various stripes have caused far more pain, suffering, and death in American history than Muslims in that continent, I think it’s appropriate to focus on their actions.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    But you didn’t provide proof Chet, you provided one report that talked specifically about the Muslim brotherhood, also forgetting that the status of a “professional” in Egypt is far different than one in the US or Europe. Bottom line is that most of the jihadist who will actually pick up a gun and fight, or blow themselves up, are poor people with little to nothing to lose.

    Your other source is a well-known Islamophobic source. The burden of proof is on them to support their claim, not on me to disprove it.

  • Chet

    Skinny,

    For Ruslan, those Tibetan Buddhists are every bit as dangerous as Radical Muslims…and for you, Muslims good, Sikhs good, Hindus, baaaad….(and good God folks, beware of those Southern Christians!)

    An informed, objective observer would be shaking his/her head in incredulity.

  • Chet

    RUSLAN: “Incorrect. Islam has never been a monolithic movement since death of Mohammed.”

    RESPONSE: I never said it was. It was wracked by a succession crises from the get-go, which formed the basis of the Shia-Sunni schism. But this in no way detracts from my original assertion, that Islam has been at war with the non-Muslim world continually since its inception. They only exception was the 19th and 20th centuries, when the West eclipsed Islam to such an extent that Jihad was temporarily abandoned as a survival mechanism (though even in this period, there was a degree of conflict).

    RUSLAN: “Here’s the part where I ask you for proof.”

    RESPONSE: Read it and weep. Your ‘poverty is the root cause’ canard simply doesn’t hold water…..

    http://www.tuftsgloballeadersh.....erhood.pdf

    “By the Mid 1980s, the Muslim Brotherhood….submitted a list of candidates for the election of leadership within the country’s NATIONAL PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS and SUCCEEDED in GAINING A CONTROLLING MAJORITY on the boards of several associations.”

    “Changes wrought by the Islamic leadership, upon its initial occupation of a seat MAJORITY on the ASSOCIATION‘S EXECUTIVE BOARDS, were both practical and symbolic.”

    “The movement {Muslim Brotherhood) emerged from the 80s as a LEADING FORCE in Egyptian society; the THOUSANDS OF PROFESSIONALS within the associations that connected to the Muslim Brotherhood volunteered their time….”

    “The PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS gave the Brotherhood activist the opportunity to hone their leadership skills…”

    “By the early 90s, EGYPT’S PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS remained among the major sites of Islamic political experimentation….”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/2280.....-the-Egypt

    “1995 Egyptian Syndicates:
    Doctors….20 of 23 seats were Islamist; Engineers……45 of 61 seats; Scientists…..17 0f 25 seats; Pharmacists…….17 of 25 seats; Lawyers….18 of 25 seats.”

    RUSLAN: “Actually you are missing something because Islam doesn’t have “millions of extremists”, nor are they killing thousands every year.”

    RESPONSE: OK, there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Jihadists killing over a THOUSAND every year. We should all sleep easier, eh?…

    http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm

    Examine the number of Islamic terrorist groups in the list. Multiply that number by membership. If it’s not in the millions, it’s certainly in the hundreds of thousands. Then you can add those unaffiliated Muslims in places like Egypt and Indonesia that episodically riot and murder Christians and other non-Muslims over issues large and small (sometimes in protest over the existence of unofficial churches that Christians must resort to for lack of building permits for bonafide churches).

    http://www.thereligionofpeace......heList.htm

    Since 911, the average number of victims of Islamic terrorism is between 4 and 5 a day, which translates to well over 1000 a year. You may not like the source, but I challenge you to contest the actual documentary evidence.

    RUSLAN: ” Of course they usually end up killing Caucasians, Russians, Indians, Israelis, in other words, people you don’t care about.”

    RESPONSE: Completely unfair. Why is it liberals must resort to personal put-downs when engaged in political discourse? Is it the frustration of not being able to mount an effective argument?

  • skinnyminny

    Okay Chet,
    You bring up France. BTW, my understanding is that the rioters you speak of are first generation French citizens – their parents immigrated as workers. Yet, these kids of immigrants feel they are not able to receive any benefits of being a French citizen. I guess, the parents stayed on after working. The same thing can happen here. This country have used foreign worker recruiters the past 10 years displacing American workers under the pretext “jobs American won’t do.”
    You say that this domination doesn’t happen in America and not law? Have you looked into some of the churches in the Southern states – some of these churches believe they only follow God’s law, and yes, children as well as adults are beaten into submission, and these are wives as well as fellow church members. They must follow and obey the church or else.

  • skinnyminny

    Chet,
    Okay, here we go again. I haven’t had time to go and do research, nor am I intending to do research on this.

    Depressing and mind-blogling as you say. However, did you ever stop to think that maybe the integration issues have more reasons than you say. For instance, more Pakistanis are of a darker skin color. Yet, if you attend the colleges, there are more Pakistanis in the Math department. If I’m not mistaken, a Pakistani is who started the edible fruit baskets – you know the fruit cut into shapes and set up like a flower arrangement. Also, I believe it was a Pakistani who developed and started the ceramic hair straightener – you know, like the crimp irons. And lastly, if I’m not mistaken, it was a Pakistani who bought the pro-ball team that Limbaugh was unable to buy because of the outrage with his racist ways.
    India, well, Britain, Portugal and Spain has a big influence on this country – try looking into Goa. Hindus are considered the ruling class of India. India still have a caste system. Although there are some Hindus of darker skin, meaning they are not at all the lighter skin with hazel eyes, they are still considered above some of the others. Personally, I like the Sikhs better – my opinion and interaction, the Sikhs are more like christians, or should I say more friendly and they help people in need. My experience and/or opinion of Hindus, I think they are arrogant and hostile and they remind me of the racist whites.

  • skinnyminny

    Chet,
    first off, let me say that I am not Muslim, nor is anyone in my family Muslim. So, let’s make that clear! Not that there’s anything wrong with being Muslim, I am just saying that I am not, I am agnostic.

    You related to us that you have done some research on Islam/Sharia….let me give you a little direction, or should I say some tips. Google this name (it may come back in a variety of spellings) Syyed Qytub/Syed Qytub/Saed Qytub from Egypt. Here you will find that this was the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood. He studied in Texas before you or I was born. This is the guy that originally had a problem with the U.S. before being imprisoned in Egypt. So, this being a problem didn’t just start within the last decade. Then also, I think this name is correct, Leila Khalid, she was the first female Palestinian highjacker, who have taken refuge in Egypt. So, again, this is interesting how people listen to word of mouth, or rumors and run with it not knowing all the facts or history. Here I am referring to some of the protesters that have appeared against the mosques in the U.S.

    Did you know that some Americans where kidnapped by Muslims in the Philippines around 9-11? Did you know that CCTV (Chinese cable news) recently, about a week ago, reported two navy personnel missing in Philippines? I don’t understand why is it that Muslims in the Middle East are not given a pass, while Muslims in Philippines and other Asian countries are! But again, that’s the problem here in America, we tend to rotate and take turns on who is flavor of the moment. Yet, when it comes to blacks, it doesn’t matter what country they are from, to America, they are all treated the same, badly.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    “Indeed. Somehow, I don’t see Tibetan Buddhism as a global movement with millions of extremists, killing thousands every year. Maybe I just missed that one.”

    Actually you are missing something because Islam doesn’t have “millions of extremists”, nor are they killing thousands every year. Let me ask you something, when you are browsing your anti-Islamic sites, do you ever ask yourself, “did I check to see if this information is accurate?”

    “RESPONSE: Actually, that “manufactured Struggle” has been a fact of life since the inception of Islam. The only respites were periods when Islam was eclipsed by the West and so temporarily abandoned their Jihad imperative.”

    Incorrect. Islam has never been a monolithic movement since death of Mohammed. You need to study history better rather than sites that purposely cherry-pick in order to create an idea of a never-ending struggle with Islam.

    “Except that it’s not. An impovershed subsistence farmer in Pakistan is less likely to be a violent Jihadi than an educated engineer in Egypt. All the 9-11 hijackers were educated and middle class; the leadership of most major extremist organizations are middle class or affluent; ”

    Would be significant were it not for the fact that the overwhelming majority of jihadis ARE in fact poor. Of course they usually end up killing Caucasians, Russians, Indians, Israelis, in other words, people you don’t care about.

    “all the major professional guilds in Egypt – law, medicine, engineering – have elected fundamentalist leadership.

    Here’s the part where I ask you for proof.

  • Dick Lancaster

    Ruslan,

    You always make an intelligent argument and I applaud you for using your full name. So far you have kept your personal insults to a minimum and ridiculed my ideas. This is acceptable in a debate and encourages a continuance.

    As far as property ‘rights’ are concerned, simple logic would tell you that if a government entity can compel you to do or not do something to your property, or even confiscate it, then you have no ‘right’ to it regardless of the wisdom of regulation or a court’s opinion. You can, if you like assert your ‘right’ to property when it is threatened but only if you have the wealth to do so. Even then you cannot be sure of the outcome in court. Therefore, if your property is never secure, then you do not have a right to it. Stop paying your property taxes and see how it goes.

    You have no ‘right’ to practice your religion either. You argue well and give many examples of your own experience in observing people practicing their faith freely. I only have to cite one instance where religious practice was forbidden, asserted and lost in court to prove there is no religious freedom, only a privilege you may or may not be granted. And I can do that multiple times.

    Of course, total freedom and unrestricted ‘rights’ make up the concept of anarchy. This is as dangerous as totalitarianism. We make compromises on our ‘rights’ to avoid anarchy. The point I am making is that we allow third parties to determine the extent of our rights to anything. It is the strength of the debate that will influence the decision maker. So far the Cordoba Mosque is losing the debate, but as we have all seen, it only takes one arrogant judge to deny ‘the will of the people’.

    Reading the minds of Muslims to ascertain how they see things isn’t necessary when they record their thoughts in books, histories, opinions and other means of expression. Islam has not had its reformation. Christianity was just as barbaric 500 years ago and ruled Europe as a Theocracy. It had its own version of Sharia and was every bit as brutal. But it did reform itself. We can see pockets of that effort in Islam, mainly from its women. It does them no good to keep excusing the radicals because most Muslims sit on the fence waiting for a winner. So far the radicals have the upper hand.

    You cannot be a Sharia compliant Muslim and a loyal American citizen. But you can be a reformed Muslim and respect the laws and traditions of this country.

  • Chet

    Skinny,

    Your denial is mind-boggling and depressing.

    Of course there is sexism in every culture, but only in Islam is that sexism codified into law (the examples I cited in my post at 3:39PM).

    Here in America and elsewhere in the non-Muslim world, men sometimes beat their wives, but there are laws that penalize such behavior with jail time, restraining orders, etc. In Islam – as per Quran 4.34, it is perfectly legal.

    As for honor killings, worldwide, they are overwhelmingly committed by Muslims (and for the record, India has a huge Muslim population). It was only after the large-scale Muslim immigration into Europe, America and Canada over the last 20 years that we began to see cases of honor killings regularly in the West. Britain alone had over 17,000 honor crimes last year (mostly beatings and assaults, but a smattering of killings). Almost all were attributed to Muslim immigrants.

    Interesting how in Britain, Sikhs and Hindus have integrated so nicely. On average, they earn as much as native Brits and have a similar percentage of their people on welfare. But Muslims from Pakistan and Bangladesh are far less willing to integrate, have far lower incomes, and a far higher percentage of their people on welfare.

    Why is this? The Islamo-Left blames it on discrimination. But Hindus and Sikhs are ethnically identical to Pakistanis and yet, they’ve prospered in their new society. The only difference is religion. Instead of blaming the Brits, couldn’t the blame lie with Muslims themselves and their cultural/religious proclivities?

    It’s so bad now that Hindus and Sikhs in Britain wish to be identified in the media by their RELIGION because the established moniker – “Asian” – associates them with Muslims, which they resent…NOT because of fears of discrimination, but because of their own disdain for Muslim behavior…behavior such as riots in the early 90s throughout northern Britain, constant angry demonstrations and public expressions of disaffection and supremacism.

    It’s eerily similar in France. Indochinese immigrants and those from sub-Sahara Africa are integrating nicely, doing quite well economically and otherwise. But Muslim immigrants from North Africa are perpetually disaffected, frequently rioting and burning cars (by the thousands last year), and stubbornly unwilling to integrate.

    I’m not for a minute saying all Muslims are bad. I’m just pointing out the obvious, that Islamic religion/culture is uniquely resistant to integration and at its heart, is fundamentally incompatible with a free society. This is one reason there are so few Democracies in the Islamic world (Turkey is the only one I can think of, and its secular freedoms are being steadily constricted by the elected Islamist government).

    Islam presents a HUGE problem and challenge to Western concepts of democratic secularism and gender equality. That’s all I’m asking you to acknowledge. It pains me that you are unable to do so.

    You won’t awaken until you’re good and ready. That may be months, years, or never. Anyway, I wish you the best.

  • Mitch Beales

    Chet your feel bad uniculturalism assumes that all Muslims believe the same nonsense. Different Muslims, like different Jews or different Christians, have different nonsensical ideas of immutable truths. We would all be better off if we could each let our truths be more “mutable.” I challenge you to read http://30mosques.com/ where the most recent post shows photos of a tiny mosque in Ross, North Dakota, where Syrians settled in the late 19th century, and graves that look just like the ones my German Lutheran grandparents are buried in and continue to spew your hateful invective which, in classic racist, xenophobic fashion, portrays all Muslims as if they were as bad as the worst Muslims.

  • skinnyminny

    Chet,
    It is the same thing! A good example, most Muslims don’t eat pork. Whereas Americans eat pork.

    Now to use the excuse that women don’t have any rights, they are dominated by men…..this just doesn’t happen in Islamic countries. I’ve had several Chinese neighbors, and at times I get the impression they cannot join the conversation without permission from their husband. I’ve worked with Korean women that need permission from their husbands to spend money. But who are we (Americans) kidding, this can happen in any country, including here. I’ve also had neighbors from India, and it appears the husband must approve of who the wife speaks to – as well, it appears they also don’t like the police.

    Again, there are some good things about Islam as well as bad, but that’s with all religions. One good thing about Islam, depending on the country, some women must be chaparoned on dates, a man is not to enter a home if the women is alone (or, if the woman’s hair is uncovered) – in this country, it’s the opposite, and the women are often sexually assaulted. In Islam, if a woman is without a husband, then most times a son, brother, uncle…will take the responsibility of the woman, in this country it is the opposite and women are frequently victim of non-related/related men who either scam/manipulate…the woman. I’ve met women from Latin America that are fearful of their husbands – then I later saw that yes, SOMETIMES this is with good reason. But this is the same here in America, there are spouses that are fearful of the other, whether it’s male or female.

    So again, in every religion, country, culture, there are things we agree with and things we do not. I am bringing this to your attention, because, as it stands, some of the practices of Islam is also the same with Hinduism – example, if a daughter or son marry someone other than what the parents approve of, it can mean death for the outsider or the daughter of the Indian family.

  • Chet

    RUSLAN: “Take Tibetan Buddhism for example, which is often looked at as totally peaceful. The real history is far darker.”

    Indeed. Somehow, I don’t see Tibetan Buddhism as a global movement with millions of extremists, killing thousands every year. Maybe I just missed that one.

    RUSLAN: “The manufactured struggle between the Islamic and non-Muslim world…”

    RESPONSE: Actually, that “manufactured Struggle” has been a fact of life since the inception of Islam. The only respites were periods when Islam was eclipsed by the West and so temporarily abandoned their Jihad imperative.

    RUSLAN: “…has created a situation where poor, exploited Muslims find some kind of false solidarity with a dishonest ruling class. Instead of noticing the terrible conditions in their own countries, they feel they must rally to the defense of Islam.”

    RESPONSE: Ahhhh yes, that old familiar refrain, ‘it’s all about poverty’.

    Except that it’s not. An impovershed subsistence farmer in Pakistan is less likely to be a violent Jihadi than an educated engineer in Egypt. All the 9-11 hijackers were educated and middle class; the leadership of most major extremist organizations are middle class or affluent; all the major professional guilds in Egypt – law, medicine, engineering – have elected fundamentalist leadership.

    But I don’t expect you to know any of this.

  • Chet

    Skinnyminny,

    There’s quite a difference between culinary diversity and cultural differences that include polygamy and legalized discrimination against women. I love Mexican and Chinese food, I like Latin and African music, I have an appreciation of the beauty of exotic women (I married outside of my race).

    But I have a problem with inheritance laws that discriminate against women (Quran, 4.11), legal strictures that confine a woman’s testimony to the worth of HALF that of a man, (Quran 2.282), edicts that elevate man over women (Quran 2.228), and legalized spousal abuse (Quran 4.34). These are not theoretical concepts and/or allegory like those you might find in the old testament, they are – according to Muslims – immutable commandments from God that are etched in stone for all eternity. In short, they are the LAW.

    Your feel-good multiculturalism takes none of this into account. Please inform yourself. You may have been taught in university that America is an institutionally sexist, racist country, but the reality is, women and racial minorities from other countries continue to flock here because of the opportunities and freedoms afforded them. I would hate to be a woman or a religious minority in the Islamic realm…and my guess is, you would too.

  • skinnyminny

    Chet,
    There you go again! If you google “Mike or Mohammad,” you will see that, yes, they sometimes will use ‘christian names.’ This talks about Muslims that apply for jobs, that when they use Mohammad or Muhammad, they are not called back for an interview, yet, it they use the name Mike on an application, they are called back.

    As far as the schools in California, did you check to see which Congressional district it was in? But again, who cares? As I stated before, when people migrate to this country, they want to bring their culture with them. Example, they want their foodstuffs – hence, you have stores/restaurants that target Vietnamese, Middle Eastern, Chinese, Mexican, Caribbean, Brazilian, Italian…..

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    People can twist religious scripture to mean anything. Yes, it is true that according to Islam, there should be no separation between church and state, but this of course isn’t how things really worked out in the past. In fact, they don’t really work out that way now except on paper. Moreover, the Christian dominionists also claim no separation of church and state, the difference being that Muslims acknowledge this concept as being the law of the land in the US whether they like it at all, whereas the former pretend the founders’ never believed it.

    That being said, there are many more backward religious doctrines which receive almost no attention at all. Take Tibetan Buddhism for example, which is often looked at as totally peaceful. The real history is far darker.

    This goes to show that religious dominance in society in general is a problem, but what many atheists don’t understand is that you don’t defeat religion by focusing on it and attacking it. Islamophobia has done little more than hurt innocent people and fed the flames of fanaticism. The manufactured struggle between the Islamic and non-Muslim world has created a situation where poor, exploited Muslims find some kind of false solidarity with a dishonest ruling class. Instead of noticing the terrible conditions in their own countries, they feel they must rally to the defense of Islam.

    Likewise, while Americans fear the Islamic world, they too vote against their own interests.

  • Chet

    RUSLAN: “Is this an admission that you see all Muslims as terrorists?”

    Not in the least. It’s an admission that those who attacked us on Sept 11 were Muslims and that they made copious and detailed use of Islam’s canonical texts to justify their mass murder.

    RUSLAN: “No, Christian fundemantalism does not pale in comparison, because it has far deeper roots in this country and it has far more access to power.”

    No acknowledgment here of the profound difference in ethics and substance between the teachings of Jesus (as documented in the Gospel) and those of Muhammad (as documented in the Quran, Hadith and the Sirat Rasul)…that there is a secular essence to the message of the former (“render unto Ceasar”), while there is none to be found in the message of the latter…that there are numerous countries governed in part or en toto by Islamic law (Sharia), but none anywhere governed by “Christian law”.

    Anyway, thanks for the discourse. It was quite informative for me (though probably not in the way you might think). Best of luck in your endeavors.

  • Mitch Beales

    Regarding the textbooks the point is that you have no idea of the context of the phrases excerpted by jihadwatch. For all you and I know Global History and Geography: The Growth of Civilization might have said that:

    Among other ridicuolous notions Muslims believe that:

    Pigs fly.
    The moon is made of green cheese.
    Muhammad was the messenger of Allah.

  • Mitch Beales

    Is there a school district in California that doesn’t include “Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs?” How many children have dressed up as “pilgrims” (not the haji kind) at Thanksgiving? I disagree with Ruslan about the cartoons. Practicing a religion or believing that someone should be killed because they drew a picture is a “lifestyle choice.” No “special rights” for Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, or Republicans!

    Chet if you don’t care to be sensitive towards Muslims how can you put forward an argument that they should be sensitive to your paranoid fears and hatred? It is perhaps you and your comrades who should wake up to the way your opposition to the exercise of religious freedom fans the flames of hatred in the Muslim world and highlights American hypocrisy to everyone else. Frankly I don’t much care if you and everyone else in the whole wide world believes that the attack on September 11 is the worst thing that’s ever happened, throwing the Constitution out the window now is as bad an idea as it was when the Bush administration suspended habeas corpus.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    “Can you imagine for a moment Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs compelled to take Christian names, dress like Christians, cry out the Christian equivalent of “Allah O Akbar”, etc in public school? You and every other proponent of multiculturalism would be outraged. But because it was done on behalf of another culture, it’s all good fun and games.”

    Until I get a detailed account of what actually went on in that classroom, I cannot make a ruling on this. What I do believe is that a history teacher was trying to actually get the children involved in history, which in general is a great idea. Perhaps she went too far in this case. But let’s also not forget that children are and have been “compelled” to do a lot of stupid stuff in the class-room.

    Oh I almost forgot- this is totally irrelevant to the building of Park 51, because this “reciprocity” you speak of has nothing to do with US law or the constitution.

    “Gentlemen, you’re both obviously intelligent individuals. How telling that you stubbornly cling to your willful denial. Christian fundamentalism certainly has its dangers, but it pales in scope and degree to its Muslim variant. Neither of you exhibit any comprehension of this reality.”

    No, Christian fundemantalism does not pale in comparison, because it has far deeper roots in this country and it has far more access to power.

    “PS – Mitch, as “offenses” go, I and most Americans categorize the mass murder of 3000 people as ever so slightly more egregious than a cartoon drawing of a prophet.”

    Is this an admission that you see all Muslims as terrorists?

    And as for the cartoons, a lot of people in the Muslim world foolishly overreacted to them and made themselves look bad. This is mainly because if some of them hadn’t reacted so badly, they would have held the moral high ground by default. These cartoons of Mohammed aren’t just about depicting Mohammed. I could draw a picture of Mohammed that would be haram on principle, but normal and dignified. These people don’t want that. They want to draw offensive stereotypical, degrading pictures of Mohammed. I support their free speech and all, but I also don’t believe they deserve the label freedom fighter or whatever nonsense they call themselves. They are no different than racists who draw caricatures of blacks, Jews, Mexicans, and what-not.

  • Chet

    PS – Mitch, as “offenses” go, I and most Americans categorize the mass murder of 3000 people as ever so slightly more egregious than a cartoon drawing of a prophet.

  • Chet

    Mitch,

    you missed the boat entirely on the textbooks. Your example of “Jesus was indeed the massiah…” was exactly point. They DIDN’T say as much, they qualified the claims of Christians with “Believe”, “claim”, etc…as was appropriate in a secular classroom. But there was no such qualifier for Muslim claims. How is this too hard to understand?

    PS – Did YOU support the right of the cartoonists to depict Muhammad?

    Ruslan,

    Can you imagine for a moment Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs compelled to take Christian names, dress like Christians, cry out the Christian equivalent of “Allah O Akbar”, etc in public school? You and every other proponent of multiculturalism would be outraged. But because it was done on behalf of another culture, it’s all good fun and games.

    Gentlemen, you’re both obviously intelligent individuals. How telling that you stubbornly cling to your willful denial. Christian fundamentalism certainly has its dangers, but it pales in scope and degree to its Muslim variant. Neither of you exhibit any comprehension of this reality.

    I wish you both well, and sincerely hope that someday you’ll awaken from your slumber.

  • Chet

    Gentlemen, just keep reciting “Islam is peace” by rote….and sleep real comfy.

  • skinnyminny

    Chet,
    Wow! Are you that anti-muslim? Now, going back to what you’ve said to me, ‘you are un-American.’ My question to you, why is it, anytime someone disagrees with the Right, we are labeled un-American?

    I, by the way, am not un-American. I just happened to think outside the box, and, of course, have empathy. At the same time, I am a kinda ‘in-your-face girl,’ especially when you try to get me to conform to your way of thinking when I know it’s wrong. Again, I have raised questions about how can people from the Right, as well as people that are anti-Muslim continue to support the republican party – when in fact, there are practicing Muslims that are republicans. What is it that you really believe in – just being a winner? Meaning as long as the republicans gain power you don’t care?

    I think it is unfair, as well as unhealthy to continue on with your complaints about Muslims. Did you complain about the ‘illegal immigrants’ from Central America & Mexico? For the past few years now, I have been telling people that complain about Mexico that the day will come when they may need to go south of the border!

    I think it is time for you to call it quits – Ruslan won this one BIG TIME.

  • Mitch Beales

    Chet, thanks for the reference. This makes it clear that what happened in the school was that children play-acted at being Muslims. The judge ruled, rightly in my opinion, that this did not constitute the practice of religion. Those who brought the case to court objected that this constitutes a “double standard” but it seems clear to me that play-acting to gain sensitivity toward a culture or religion is quite different from practicing your own religion or, as the plaintiffs seemed to believe the school was doing, promoting a particular religion.

    I presume you also were opposed to the publication of cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed as a pig because of the sensitivity issues involved. I certainly hope you don’t support the fatwah!

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    It is the only factor in this equation. This is no different than a Muslim(or anyone else) buying property to build, say, a restaurant. Incidentally, it happens to be a community center with a prayer room.

    Second, your sources don’t seem to be too reliable. When we look at the ABC source it seems pretty innocuous. Yes, the teacher over-stepped the line, but the court didn’t endorse what she did. Apparently learning world religions is mandatory(which is not necessarily endorsing religion), but that doesn’t mean that this particular teacher didn’t go too far.

    How is this part of a huge conspiracy?

  • Chet

    Ruslan and Mitch, here is the documentation on the California Middle School district….

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=54522

    http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/sto.....id=3553898

    Ruslan,

    In strictly legal terms, the mosque advocates have the Constitution on their side. I’ve never denied this. Your insistence that this is the ONLY factor in the equation is a subjective opinion, as is my insistence that it is much, much more. The difference between us is that I’m open minded enough to acknowledge as much.

    My position is that this issue has profound political and emotional overtones in New York and around the nation that are undeniable. If this issue is resolved in the courts, then it should be rightly decided in favor of the mosque. If it resolved in the court of public opinion, then the mosque advocates should take a page from their own book about societal “sensitivity” and look for another location.

    How sad you can’t see as much.

  • Mitch Beales

    Lou does the book by Mr. Sarrazin include the anti-semitic comments that have led to calls for his dismissal from the Bundesbank board? http://online.wsj.com/article/.....lenews_wsj Are you confusing critical acclaim and criticism? I submit that it is your duty as a citizen to “do serious investigative research” before suggesting that we ignore the constitution of the United States because “people on the ground…dont seem to like what they see.”

    Chet have you actually seen the “documentation” you’ve cited or are you simply parroting what you’ve read on jihadwatch? Based on your history of fair and balanced comments here I’m sure you wouldn’t try to deceive us by taking something out of context but perhaps you have been deceived by others. For instance, another way to cite your first example would be as follows:

    “Jesus was indeed the messiah and had risen from the dead, or been resurrected.” — Global History and Geography: The Growth of Civilization, by Henry Brun, Lillian Forman and Herbert Brodsky, Amsco School Publications, Inc., 2008. P. 143

    “Muhammad was the messenger of Allah.” — Global History and Geography: The Growth of Civilization, by Henry Brun, Lillian Forman and Herbert Brodsky, Amsco School Publications, Inc., 2008. P. 182

    I’m sure privacy concerns prevent you from revealing the name or location of the “California middle school district” but rulings of the US Ninth District Circuit Court are a matter of public record so perhaps you could look here http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/opinions/ and find the ruling you are referring to.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Oh Chet now it’s just getting said.

    “On the contrary, I WON because I’ve proven that this issue is NOT about constitutionality, it’s about reciprocity, fair play, and basic right and wrong.”

    Nope, it’s about constitutionality.

    ” I’ve proven that Muslim DEMANDS for accommodation and respect are pervasive in our society. The expectation of reciprocity is an entirely legitimate call.”

    And Christian DEMANDS for accomodation have been far more pervasive and successful for far longer. Again, this is a matter of private property and the constitution.

    “1) The California middle school story is absolutely true. You know nothing about it because apparently, you’re uninterested in anything that doesn’t validate your world-view.”

    Source please.

    “2) I documented the text-book bias before you even asked for documentation. (post at 6:05, Sept 1)”

    How many textsbooks is this in? Do you also complain about Texas versions of textbooks?

    “3) No, cabbies CANNOT legally discriminate against fair-riders. You apparently know nothing about law.”

    Then those Muslims who attempt to discriminate will be fired. Religious freedom has limits, which is why Rastafarians aren’t allowed to smoke Marijuana legally.

    “4) The system doesn’t necessarily regulate itself. Multicultural sensitivities are undermining the fight to maintain the establishment clause.”

    Actually I’d say it has mostly been evangelical protestants on the forefront of this. If the Muslims make any headway it will be because of their pioneering work.

    “Checkmate!”

    More like, fail, actually.

    Again, every single case you mention has ZERO relevance to Park 51.

  • Chet

    Ruslan,

    On the contrary, I WON because I’ve proven that this issue is NOT about constitutionality, it’s about reciprocity, fair play, and basic right and wrong. I’ve proven that Muslim DEMANDS for accommodation and respect are pervasive in our society. The expectation of reciprocity is an entirely legitimate call.

    Meanwhile, your responses continue to be feeble.

    1) The California middle school story is absolutely true. You know nothing about it because apparently, you’re uninterested in anything that doesn’t validate your world-view.

    2) I documented the text-book bias before you even asked for documentation. (post at 6:05, Sept 1)

    3) No, cabbies CANNOT legally discriminate against fair-riders. You apparently know nothing about law.

    4) The system doesn’t necessarily regulate itself. Multicultural sensitivities are undermining the fight to maintain the establishment clause. The 9th circuit ruling is a perfect case in point…(interesting how the ACLU – normally so adamant of about litigating against any blurring of church and state – decided to sit this one out; I guess like you, they feel if the transgressors are Muslims, there is a different standard and its nothing to worry about).

    Checkmate!