Race and class can both be disadvantages. In the vast majority of cases non-whites (except perhaps Asians) get a double whammy of race and class. This is certainly not due to any innate inferiority but rather to the long history of discrimination against people of color. Recent Asian immigrants have sometimes escaped this trap due in part to the fact that they (or other members of their ethnic group) have arrived in this country already in possession of wealth or education. I believe it is disingenuous to suggest that socioeconomic class should be considered instead of race. Those who are discriminated against due to both race and socioeconomic class should get a double dose of affirmative action as they have gotten a double dose of discrimination.

I think that people overemphasize race while ignoring socioeconomic class. To emphasize my point I will ask the reader to ask themselves if they would prefer Obama over Larry the Cable Guy (google it) as a neighbor. Most people would choose the Upper-middle class African American who made Law Review at Harvard Law over the déclassé, uncouth comedian who has a puerile sense of humor.

Race does play its part, but it is important not to mistake an instance of middle-class privilege for white privilege.

“even the holiday that honors America’s discoverer, Christopher Columbus, is now under attack”

Columbus wasn’t even the first white to discover America, and the Natives have been here millennia long before whites.

“writer Jack London (whose works are popular in racist circles)”

Is that true? I have always respected Jack London for his humble origins and teaching himself to read and write, and eventually becoming one of history’s best selling authors.

“One fan of NPI’s Jefferson site, for example, lists the racist League of the South and Ku Klux Klan co-founder Nathan Bedford Forrest among his ‘likes and interests.’”

He could be a troll, since a person has to “like” something to comment on the page. Unfortunately, this is probably not the case.

Except those hundreds of studies which find plenty of discrimination in regards to housing, lending, hiring, and college admissions.

I understand there is differing opinions on whether this justified or not. I, on the other hand, is wondering why Juan Williams continue to talk about this as if he has an ax to grind. I’m also wondering why so many Americans are joining this bandwagon.

Here’s what puzzles me, he (Juan) got another job that pays more-this was immediately. I know a lot of people who have lost their jobs, and they still don’t have a job, or the ones who got another job, the pay is not as good as the one they’ve lost. People in the media lose jobs all the time, whether it is ratings, or some other reason – just see some of the morning shows to see the musical chairs.

My view on this, where was the public outrage when corps were shutting down plants, GM, caterpillar….then you have the folks at you know where – well their title just became more of an insight to me – the “and friends” part – it almost seems as though they are using their shows to target people they don’t like, to ridicule people they don’t like….

So again, for me, I think it is ridiculus to continue this rant – really. Most people that are in a new relationship don’t like to keep hearing, ‘my ex did this,’ so why should this continue with J. Williams – I think it’s time for him to move on – he didn’t lose anything, well, maybe his pride was wounded, but that’s nothing compared to the people out of work.

The transcription of William Trent’s journal at http://www.hsp.org/files/pages.....ournal.pdf (page 11) certainly seems to suggest that his actions did indeed constitute an act of biological warfare. I presume the footnote there was inserted by the transcriber but if the footnote is Trent’s then his intentional use of biological warfare seems undeniable. Once again I urge others who post here to post links to information that they are citing whenever possible. It leads to a much more fruitful discussion than simply asking people to “look it up.”

Frankly I hope that my descendants look back and say that Americans did terrible things in Iraq, Vietnam, Hiroshima, Dresden, and countless other locations. I hope they don’t blame all Americans although, in a sense, we all share the guilt as all Germans (not to mention all the other Jew-haters of Europe) shared the guilt of the Nazis, as all Catholics shared the guilt of the inquisition, and as all Puritans shared the guilt of Salem. Did these groups really do all they could do to prevent the atrocities that were committed by their societies?

In my opinion Howard Zinn was a great man who brought a great deal of previously ignored historical data into public awareness. I certainly don’t think he had any intention or illusion of giving a “fair and balanced” account of history. I’m certain that he had no intention to create haters. The “facts” change dramatically with your perspective. The “Texas” where your ancestors worked hard in 1826 was part of Mexico. To a settler who worked the land Texas’ war for independence would certainly seem to be a war of liberation. The Mexican government would more likely view it as theft of prime real estate.

“Paen, you’re judging me because I’m white. You don’t know me, yet you’ve labeled me a white supremacist hate monger, you said I think I’m better than you and my parents were bigoted people who didn’t teach me right from wrong, and I have no respect for those different than me. ”

You’re being labeled a racist because you are writing typical racist nonsense: “WHY COME BLACK PEOPLE CAN HAVE AN NAACP, BUT WHITE PEOPLE CAN’T HAVE ANY WHITE PRIDE ORGANIZATIONS???”

“And Ruslan, when will black, latinos and other so called minority groups stop insulting themselves by insisting they need special treatment to be equal to anyone else? ”

They don’t want special treatment, they want an end to discrimination. And plenty of sociological studies show they aren’t getting equal treatment. Sorry if the facts don’t fit what Rush Limbaugh or similar yahoos have been telling you for years.

When I hear other white folks (like myself) get defensive over their heritage and “culture” it only reinforces the entitlement, denial and individualism that racism has ingrained into our beliefs and behavior.
Now, let me explain.

Firstly, our history says that our forefathers championed the rights of the individual and personal achievement. This ideal is imperative to the U.S. citizen’s understanding of them-self and the world around them. However, this understanding plays into the favor of the white, privileged person (I will explain privilege in a second). The fact is, our sense of individualism causes us to try to disassociate ourselves from our collective past as white people.

Yes, it’s true that at one point Irish, Scottish, Polish, Italian and Slavic immigrants were persecuted and left out of the power dynamic of this nation. But when these ethnicities began organizing themselves to challenge the status quo, privileges were extended to them in order to absorb them into the “white” class, rather than becoming movements that could challenge the power structure. In order to gain access to these privileges, these European immigrants gave up their personal identities and cultural heritage to fit into the larger “American” picture. Blacks and Native Americans have never been offered privilege from the ruling elite. EVER. Everything that blacks and American Indians have accomplished has truly been by “pulling themselves up by the bootstraps.” Civic movements (like labor and women’s liberation) intentionally excluded these groups from their leadership and advocacy because they knew that including these groups would demean their message. It would provide an easy excuse for rulers to ignore their demands because racism was (and is) such a firm institution in all matters of government.

Whites can point to whatever European heritage they have, but the fact is, very little of our personal practices today resemble those cultures. Our ancestors gave up those identities in favor of white privilege and access to resources.

Rosalyn, do you go to Friends meetings? Do you advocate for radical politics like your Quaker ancestors? If not, then pointing to your heritage to excuse your privilege now is irrelevant. It’s like me saying because my grandmother was a baker, that I’m a good cook. While it might be plausible that is true, it is not just simple fact. I would be a good cook by first, growing up watching my mother cook like she did with hers- this is an inherited access to cooking skills that I could neither ask for nor deny. Secondly, because of my early childhood exposure to cooking, I gain an interest and confidence in the craft, which I use my learned knowledge to pursue as I grow older. White privilege works in a similar way.

Whether you agree with me or not, we can all agree that history is written by the victor. What’s more, we NEED to agree that racism is not just something black and brown people have to deal with. It’s continuation robs white people of their very humanity.

And Ruslan, when will black, latinos and other so called minority groups stop insulting themselves by insisting they need special treatment to be equal to anyone else? Blacks, Latinos and other races have contributed to the greatness of this country as well as anyone else and have achieved the high stature of professors, judges, senators, scientists, and lest we forget, President. Those who claim these people need special help to achieve greatness just further the attitude of inferiority and undermine the efforts of their own people.

By the way have you ever heard the phrase “A rose by any other name…..”? I think I will start calling myself an English-Indian American so I can be proud of my heritage without undue prejudice.

I’m responding to you by quoting your post in sections which are followed by my remarks:

Rosalyn Dupre said,
on October 29th, 2010 at 1:03 pm

“To Jay Lylesburg, gee, your post is proof-positive of yet another young person who hears that ONE person did something, then generalizes to an ENTIRE population of persons.”

Proof positive? Wrong. I am not a young person. Do you always assume that someone who disagrees with you is young or were you just generalizing this one time? I’ll admit I should have said “some white people” instead of just “white people”. However, Trent did not act alone as he had approval from the commander of Fort Pitt who was white. Maybe I should have said two white people? Anyway I was wrong for saying “white people” and I apologize for that.

“Did you not read that my ancestors were QUAKERS?”

Yes, I did. So what?

“Apparently you didn’t read my post, except only what you wanted to read.”

Wrong.I read your entire post. I only a addressed the part about the blankets because you said it never happened and that Howard Zinn lied about it. You were wrong.

“And the man you claim did that, I’ve seen his journal, I’ve read it, and he didn’t do it on purpose. Besides, I’m not kin to him.”

First you said it didn’t happen and it was a lie told by Howard Zinn and then you claim it was an accident. Which is it? You can’t have it both ways.
The truth is, as noted in Trent’s journal, it did happen and it was not an accident. A quote from Trent’s journal: ‘Out of our regard to them we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital.I hope it will have the desired effect.’

Trent knew exactly what he was doing and his intent was quite clear. Of course you knew that because you said you read his journal. Right? As for you not being kin to him, so what? I didn’t claim you were.

“Howard Zinn has created haters, and all the little people who believe him simply need a reason to hate, so you all generalize like crazy.”

Little people? What does that mean? All people who agree with Howard Zinn are short? Looks like you’re doing some generalizing of your own. Pot meet kettle.

“Howard Zinn has created a “generalizer” like you.”

Howard Zinn has nothing to do with me and I have never read any of his writings.

“You should be ashamed. Because for every one of the stories like that, museum or not (and btw I have traveled all over the country, don’t think you are talking to some non-educated person, I’m a professional with a Ph.D.) there is also plenty of proof that American Indians were savages.”

Nope, I’m not ashamed. You said that small pox infected blankets were never given to the Native people and I showed that you were wrong. I told the truth and that’s nothing to be ashamed of. Also, you’re appeal to authority by stating your “credentials” does not help your argument at all. You were wrong about the blankets and your credentials can’t change that.

“Proof Indians were savages are in museums too, but you don’t see me throwing that up, now do you?”

You can if you want but that won’t take away from the fact that you were wrong about the blankets.

“The Am.Indians did not own every square inch in North America so don’t anybody act like they did.”

I didn’t say they did and that has nothing to do with what I said about the blankets.

“Also, one of my grandmother’s was murdered, IN HER FRONT YARD, along with some of her children by Indian named Tecumsuh (sp?). The family name was Bonnet (French Bonet). Look it up if you dare.”

If I dare? LOL Why not double dare me while you’re at it? Again that has nothing to do with the blankets.

“But you don’t see me generalizing to ALL Indians, now do you?”

No I don’t and that’s good. It has nothing to do with what I said though.

“The Quakers are the ones who have helped Indians more than anybody, and continue to do so today.”

Good for them but that has nothing to do with what I said.

“It’s the Quakers, who, THIS SPRING of 2010 who paid the attorney fees, and all court costs or whatever, for the Indian tribe which won it’s lawsuit, getting Billions $ (with a B) dollars from the U.S. Govt. in reparations.”

Again, good for them and again that has nothing to do with anything I said.

“Are your ancestors doing anything like that nowadays for American Indians? Look it up.”

My ancestors? Well, they’re not doing anything nowadays because they are all dead.

“But you fellow Democrats of mine, who need to hate, go ahead and keep repeating the one story you have, of handkerchief loners, etc”.

I’m not a Democrat so that doesn’t apply to me and what I said shouldn’t be applied to Democrats as I do not speak for them.

“But you’re going to be forced to explain yourself when you gripe and whine about Republicans being so mean, mean, mean. I don’t want to read ONE Democrat, for example, whining about Rand Paul’s person who stepped on a person’s head, after one of our illustrious Democrats bit off a Republicans finger in Thousand Oaks last Spring, but you don’t hear any of my Dem friends remembering THAT little incident, do we?”

What does that have to do with what I posted about Trent and the blankets? Wait, I know.. it has nothing to do with it.

“See? I told everybody that I wouldn’t be able to post ONE POST here without somebody, somebody feeling sorry for the Indians would post something hateful about the white people.”

Who are you talking about? If you mean me then you’re way off because I never said I felt sorry for anyone and I did not post anything hateful about white people. I only posted the truth about Trent and the blankets.

“Kyle, you’ve demonstrated you already have ONE viewpiont in mind already, and you’re neurologically searching and searching the archives for stuff to support your negative opinions…I guess because psychologically you simply NEED to hate my white
ancestors. Period. No other good reason.

You’re poised and ready to hate.”

I don’t know who Kyle is and I don’t see any posts by anyone with that name. So.. whatever.

“I knew I couldn’t post here without at least one liberal Democrat generalizing and acting like they know ALL history of my ancestors…or acting like one person in history gives you rights to criticize all of us now.”

Not sure who you mean. Maybe that Kyle person? Amway, I am not a liberal Democrat and I never claimed I knew all about your ancestors. I did say that your ancestors and mine weren’t always nice people but I’ll take that back and instead I declare that my ancestors weren’t always nice people and yours were paragons of marvelous virtue. All better now?

“It’s just a shame, for anybody to generalizing people and who MUST throw together ALL persons from the 1600s. How would you like it if your grandchildren lumped all of us (from 2010) together and said you were killing Iraq children? Oh, you were not in Iraq in 2010? Well somebody was, and that must fit YOUR description since you were alive in 2009, 2010. See? See how that works?”

I didn’t throw all persons from the 1600′s together so I don’t know where you get that from and your analogy about Iraq doesn’t apply to anything I said.

“That is how your descendants will be talking about YOU. You and all those Iraq dead children you and I are going to be responsible for killing just because your descendants generalize all of us who lived in the year 2010.”

Actually, as a nation we are responsible.

“I can see some people never took college level critical thinking skills, and plenty of them are readers of SPLCenter mail.”

Are you including yourself in that group? If not then you should. Your posts do not show that you have very good critical thinking skills, your reading comprehension hasn’t been too great and you veer off into unrelated tangents. Also you were wrong about the blankets.

You are too funny. I call BS on your “qualifications” and your so called family history. You come across like some angry white person who can not stand the truth about your white ancestors. You gripe about generalizations yet you generalize by calling someone a young person when you don’t know their age simply because they didn’t agree with your white rant. You’re a hypocrite and a history denier.

White Europeans enslaved blacks, murdered native peoples of north and south America and committed atrocities world wide. It is the truth. Deal with it.

patriotism is for chumps.

And in Zinn’s lifetime, he was always marching for Blacks and/or Jews, for the rights of African-Americans, etc. which is to be admired. Isay that part of his life was admirable.

But yet I don’t admire somebody who can’t fight for the rights of one group of people, without writing stuff that puts others in such a bad light.

That’s what I’ll remember Zinn for doing. He wrote about Emma Goldman (Jewish), all sorts of glowing things, that even her niece and other relatives had to intervene and say, (paraphrasing) “hey, she wasn’t that much of a saint”.

The only thing I can conclude is that Howard Zinn has been angry since birth, that his parents were Jewish. He obviously hated Europeans and all white people who came to the New World from Europe.

He didn’t mention of course, that 99% of the people who came here, were never Puritans nor at Jamestowne, but rather were poor people who were being persecuted back in England and Europe for being Protestant.

Most of the immigrants to the NewWorld were Planters not Puritans. And Quakers who were abused by the puritans. They all came for religious
freedom. So they could be protestant, not the Church of England, etc.

I think Howard Zinn was just constantly peeved that his parents were Jewish.

I thnk it would have been easier for him to go into psychotherapy to treat his anger, rather than write reams of papers giving the impression that all Black people=wonderful, All Jews=wonderful, but all White people=evil.

As you can see by my name, I’m in the middle here.

And the trouble starts when people generalize, as you said.

I see Kyle starts off his comment using the plural
phrases, but can only give one example. And I’ve seen Trent’s stuff too, and no, he didn’t give Indians disease on purpose.

Even if he had, the naive thinkers who do not read nor process enough critical thinking, will always take one example, and assume plural action.

When you view all the negative things done by separate people in all of modern mankind, wow,
those of us modern people are going to look hateful, you, me, all of us.
Thats ALL of us who live nowadays, in the minds of generalizers of the future.

Descendants of the generalizers like Kyle who live in the year 2099, or 2140 are going to hold you and me and Kyle responsble for every Vietnamese who was killed back in the 1960s, using Kyle’s logic.

Not good.

Did you not read that my ancestors were QUAKERS?

Apparently you didn’t read my post, except only what you wanted to read.

And the man you claim did that, I’ve seen his journal, I’ve read it, and he didn’t do it on purpose. Besides, I’m not kin to him.

Howard Zinn has created haters, and all the little people who believe him simply need a reason to hate, so you all generalize like crazy.

Howard Zinn has created a “generalizer” like you.

You should be ashamed. Because for every one of the stories like that, museum or not (and btw I have traveled all over the country, don’t think you are talking to some non-educated person, I’m a professional with a Ph.D.) there is also plenty of proof that American Indians were savages.

Proof Indians were savages are in museums too, but you don’t see me throwing that up, now do you?

The Am.Indians did not own every square inch in North America so don’t anybody act like they did.

Also, one of my grandmother’s was murdered, IN HER FRONT YARD, along with some of her children by Indian named Tecumsuh (sp?). The family name was Bonnet (French Bonet). Look it up if you dare.

But you don’t see me generalizing to ALL Indians, now do you?
The Quakers are the ones who have helped Indians more than anybody, and continue to do so today.

It’s the Quakers, who, THIS SPRING of 2010 who paid the attorney fees, and all court costs or whatever, for the Indian tribe which won it’s lawsuit, getting Billions $ (with a B) dollars from the U.S. Govt. in reparations.

Are your ancestors doing anything like that nowadays for American Indians? Look it up.

But you fellow Democrats of mine, who need to hate, go ahead and keep repeating the one story you have, of handkerchief loners, etc.

But you’re going to be forced to explain yourself when you gripe and whine about Republicans being so mean, mean, mean. I don’t want to read ONE Democrat, for example, whining about Rand Paul’s person who stepped on a person’s head, after one of our illustrious Democrats bit off a Republicans finger in Thousand Oaks last Spring, but you don’t hear any of my Dem friends remembering THAT little incident, do we?

See? I told everybody that I wouldn’t be able to post ONE POST here without somebody, somebody feeling sorry for the Indians would post something hateful about the white people.

Kyle, you’ve demonstrated you already have ONE viewpiont in mind already, and you’re neurologically searching and searching the archives for stuff to support your negative opinions…I guess because psychologically you simply NEED to hate my white
ancestors. Period. No other good reason.

You’re poised and ready to hate.

I knew I couldn’t post here without at least one liberal Democrat generalizing and acting like they know ALL history of my ancestors…or acting like one person in history gives you rights to criticize all of us now.

It’s just a shame, for anybody to generalizing people and who MUST throw together ALL persons from the 1600s. How would you like it if your grandchildren lumped all of us (from 2010) together and said you were killing Iraq children? Oh, you were not in Iraq in 2010? Well somebody was, and that must fit YOUR description since you were alive in 2009, 2010. See? See how that works?

That is how your descendants will be talking about YOU. You and all those Iraq dead children you and I are going to be responsible for killing just because your descendants generalize all of us who lived in the year 2010.

I can see some people never took college level critical thinking skills, and plenty of them are readers of SPLCenter mail.

So what are you going to whine about next? If people tell the truth about the Founding Fathers, are you going to whine about that?

You have a point there. What you mention is one of the reasons why, while I lean Democratic and support Obama (still), I consider myself a moderate rather than a liberal.

Of course, all these labels are relative. Rush Limbaugh would consider me a liberal. The NPI would probably consder me a Communist. On the other hand, Cynthia McKinney or Louis Farrakhan would no doubt view me as right-wing or whatever. That’s why I try to stay reasonably close to the middle on most issues, even though I catch a lot of flack from both sides for doing so.

I occasionally edit Wikipedia articles relating to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and you wouldn’t believe how much extremism and vitriol there is on BOTH sides of that conflict. I have been accused of being both a Zionist and of having (in the words of one anonymous flamewarrior) “a bias against the Jewish people”. Neither, of course, is anywhere close to being true. But, because I’m a moderate who keeps and open mind and tries to avoid carrying water for any particular “side” of any conflict (similarly to the Quakers you mentioned), I get slammed by extremists on both sides.

One reason why I like the SPLC is because they, too, are quite moderate. They oppose groups like the NPI, the COfCC and the KKK, but they also oppose the New Black Panthers and the Jewish Defense League, too. They don’t seem to be biased in any way, and that’s something I like.

Whether you like it or not, the whites did give blankets infected with smallpox to the native people of America. It is not a lie dreamed up by Howard Zinn. It is documented in William Trent’s journal (written at Fort Pitt in 1763) that he (Trent) gave two blankets and a handkerchief from the small pox hospital to natives visiting the fort. William Trent’s journal is keep at the Historical Society of Pennsylvania and can be viewed by the public. It is documented proof that the event occurred, unless of course you think Howard Zinn took a time machine back to 1763 and wrote the journal under Trent’s name.

Open your eyes to the truth Rosalyn, Your ancestors and mine were not always nice people.

I have wondered why Juan Williams got canned….(?) Did he REALLY get sacked for appearing on FOX News? IF that’s the case whoever did that should be ashamed of themselves. If a progressive has to live in fear of giving an interview on a recognized major network simply because it is viewed as right-wing, that is ridiculous.
If FOX is bias and it is obvious, the (supposedly) there should be little fear that an interaction would be anything but productive as it adds a differing view point.
What’s to be frightened of,anyway?