Bring up the fact that he sought out a book blurb for “White Apocalypse” from a convicted user of child pornography (that would be Kevin Strom) and is, therefore, either possibly uncaring about working with such a person, or possibly has no problems with what Mr. Strom got done up for.

I’ve done it twice, and the answer is silence.

Yeah that bristow if you listened to VOR voice of reason sounds like a nasaly little teenage brat. It is surprising that he is throwing away his life at a young age.

Tom

It’s complicated, especially in the USA where, unlike my country Canada, the protections on freedom of speech are so robust that hate speech cannot be prevented or criminalized the way it is elsewhere. Hateful rhetoric does real harm, but those who oppose hate speech laws tend to argue A: they’ll lead to widespread discrimination of those with religious objection to homosexuality, or B: they’ll open the door to restrictions on the speech of minorities and politically unpopular groups as well as the violent bigots.

Personally, I find both arguments hard to buy, first since such laws are tailored so narrowly that religious objection is almost certain to remain protected; as it has in essentially all western nations. Second, Don’t Ask Don’t Tell is more than proof enough of how well the American constitution has done protecting the free speech of homosexual service members. Fortunately, there’s at least a decent chance that the courts will recognize exactly how unconstitutional DADT is. The bigots won’t be made to shut up, but at least the army will cease to punish the victims for the immaturity of those soldiers.

One wishes, of course, that they could go through life without being attacked for something natural, unchangeable, and unchosen, but the sad reality is that there will always be those who, for whatever reason, refuse to be tolerant and accepting. Others aren’t really bigots at all, just uninformed or still struggling with the lies society has taught them about non-heterosexuals, and neither group can be effectively dealt with by blocking their speech.

I agree that it’s hard to remain polite when someone tells you outright that they find you disgusting or repulsive, or repeats vastly inflated numbers about disease or criminality, but I’m prepared to let them have their own views so long as those views aren’t used as a club to try and force me back into the closet, or used for bullying that drives gay youth, and youth mistaken for gay, to the point of suicide. At least for now, we can’t and maybe shouldn’t stop them from speaking. We can, however, stop their voices from overwhelming and silencing our own, on this issue or any other.

But seriously though, this guy does sound like a Young Adolf. It’s extremely disturbing.

I agree that there are political forms of Islam, there are political forms of most major religions, and I find them all to be abhorrent for the same reasons. Now, I know Muslims who don’t let the Koran define every aspect of their lives, and I’m sure we both know Christians and non-believers for whom religion is just one aspect of their lives. Now, the difference is that I don’t accept the view that Islam is, by default, a more political and dominating religion than Christianity. Both have a history of oppression and domination, and both promise non-believers hell and encourage evangelism.

Most importantly, I disagree with you that Christianity, at least in some of its forms, is not a political system. Over the past few decades, we have seen in the USA especially, a vast mobilization of fundamentalist churches to influence and control politics, usually through the Republican Party. Take, for one example, the passage of proposition 8 to take away the rights of gays to marry in California. This was a proposition that was advertised, campaigned for and paid for by major religious groups, including the Mormons and the Roman Catholics. A vast amount of this funding came from outside California, and the campaign was framed in terms of gay marriage being an assault on Christian moral values, much as radical Islam paints its political opponents as enemies of Islamic values.

This is where, I think, we have a disagreement, or maybe just a difference in perspective caused by our different situations in life. You feel that the ‘militant pro-homosexual lobby’ is cramming ideas down your throat, while I watch anti-gay organizations funded by powerful churches create a nationwide, and indeed worldwide campaign to strip me of the right to full equality.

Lets say I want to marry the man I love, or serve in the army without hiding who I am. All this requires from you, indeed from anyone, is that exact ‘live and let live’ philosophy you described. On the other side, amendments to ban gay marriage, laws in Muslim nations making homosexuality a capital offense, and UN votes to essentially make acceptable the extra-judicial killing of gays and lesbians all come across as aggressive actions designed to deny people the very right to exist.

If anyone is forcing their views on others, it is the bigot who says unashamedly ‘I feel uncomfortable with your sexuality, therefore you must be destroyed’. It is those Christians who, for fear and hate of Muslims, ban the construction of prayer towers or those Muslims who, for fear and hate of Christians ban the construction of churches. It has historically been seen in the white woman who demands that a black woman drinks from a different fountain, and in the man who shouts loudly that women belong in the kitchen, not in the voting booth. I agree with your above comment that we’ve taken the conversation far from its original source though, so I’ll leave it at that, and state that as one gay man, I will never ask you to do any more than ‘not bothering’. If you find our existence distasteful, so be it, but like you, I cannot tolerate those that believe and proclaim all others must behave and believe the same things that they do.

Now did you expect, at the “end” of all this highjacking(not that anyone could define when it was “over”), the airports of the world to STOP using such security procedures? Please tell me you weren’t expecting that.

Well Ruslan, as a salesman I’ve done more than my fair share of flying. And I can assure you that airport security pre-Shoe Bomber Russell and 9/11 was nothing as to now. Every time I take my shoes off at the checkin, I thank Mr. Russell. And his compatriots. Sure, lets just let the burqah clad female pat herself down, as CAIR suggests. Right. (I do apologize to all for taking this conversation a bit off course. I therefore cease and desist as of now.)

That I am afraid changed with the practically militant pro homosexual lobbying over the last few years (“burn their houses down if they dont agree” being militant). I just cannot stomach someone cramming down my throat that which I have a fundamental distatste for. In other words, they are now violating the “I dont bother you if you dont bother me” arrangement. Well, every action has an opposite and equal reaction………sorry!

Finally, as you point out, even CAIR admits that there’s essentially no chance of sharia law being implemented in a US state, let alone overriding the state or federal constitution. But by your logic, why stop with sharia law? If this is such a benevolent act, why not pass a law forbidding the passage of laws based on Biblical commandments and Christian values?

You are well written and seem highly intelligent, R. Surely thus you know the answer to your own question. Notably that Islam is both a religion and a political system – Christianity and Judasim are not (political systems). Islam directs the muslims entire life and how to live it, and institutionally discriminates against the kafir, or unbeliever – Christianity does not, Judaism I am unsure about..

Retired Beachcomber, you’re right on the money. I’ve been reading articles on the web that says we’re in for a rude awakening, such as, the 2012 Olympics – it is alleged that the Nazis is supposed to announce they have taken over the world, the symbols for the Olympics is supposed to be a Nazi symbol. I can say, that, it does seem that all of a sudden, here and abroad there is a Nazi problem. Also, the fact that here, people keep yelling 2012, and the NSM can have all of these rallies with permits to march and intimidate minorities.

You need to check again- highjacking was common in the 70s and it was carried out by a number of groups of all kinds of ideologies, from leftists to right-wing Croatian nationalists(a hilarious little incident involving a crock-pot they claimed was a bomb). Now did you expect, at the “end” of all this highjacking(not that anyone could define when it was “over”), the airports of the world to STOP using such security procedures? Please tell me you weren’t expecting that.

“I am beginning to get the feeling that we are headed towards a Clash of Civilizations. If the moderates are to predominate, and said Clash to be avoided, they had better start speaking up soon. And I don’t mean buy building friendship community centers next to GZ.”

Given the opinions you hold toward gays, you might find that you have more in common with the extreme Islamists than you seem to believe. Honestly, if you’re going to make claims about religious objection against TSA rules and sharia law in Britain, it would help to get your facts ready first.

First, Muslims are far from alone in finding current TSA practices intrusive, and fatwas are just religious opinions by Islamic scholars, to Sunni Muslims they aren’t binding period, and to Shia Muslims they’re only binding to certain individuals. This hardly translates to a belief that they make the rules and we’d better follow them. Across the Islamic world, there’s a general recognition, no matter how certain Muslim leaders might wish it were otherwise, that a fatwa is, in fact, only truly binding on its author. A fatwa against the TSA doesn’t even necessarily reflect the opinion of a substantial number of Muslims, and isn’t worth getting upset about.

Then we have Britain’s ‘sharia courts’. In Britain, the practice of sharia law is available only when both sides agree to it, and not available in cases where the Crown/state would be involved as a party. These courts were accepted partially because Jewish Beth Din, or rabbinical courts, have existed in much the same context in the UK for over 100 years. The actual ‘law’ is the same for everyone, religious courts can only act as arbitrators, and only when parties in a civil dispute chose to do without lawyers and official judges.

Do these rabbinical courts mean that the Jewish civilization is attempting to overthrow western Europe, starting with Britain? Hardly a logical conclusion, though no doubt many still believe it to be true.

Finally, as you point out, even CAIR admits that there’s essentially no chance of sharia law being implemented in a US state, let alone overriding the state or federal constitution. But by your logic, why stop with sharia law? If this is such a benevolent act, why not pass a law forbidding the passage of laws based on Biblical commandments and Christian values?

Oh wait, that would make it a lot harder for you to discriminate against the icky gays wouldn’t it?

Hate, bigotry and zenophobia are nurtured in the fertile soil of ecomonic decline and political activists feed on it.
The voters reward the party that blocks change and the media does little to educate or report facts

But unfortunately, the moderate voices of islam are few and far between. Instead we have CAIR not getting on board to fight terrorism, but rather informing niqab or burkah clad women on how to demand their rights (head and neck ONLY) at the airport when faced with TSA screeners, or to send in reports of incidents for future lawsuits.

And there was a fatwa already on how this TSA treatment violates islamic doctrine – as if they make the rules and we’d better respect them or else. Isnt that rich, given that last time I checked, muslims blowing up planes were the reason for all the airport security in the first place. (The Red Brigades havent been around since the 70′s Ruslan.)

Last, lets look at the CAIR lawsuit against Oklahoma, where voters recently decided that there will be no sharia in the Sooner State. What could possibly be unreasonable about that, especially if as CAIR suggested there is zero chance of sharia ever being implemented in Oklahoma? If there is no chance, then whats the problem? Obviously word of numerous and well established sharia courts in the UK has spread its way across the Atlantic, and we have some forward thinking individuals taking steps to ensure that we all follow the same laws, which is as it should be.

I am beginning to get the feeling that we are headed towards a Clash of Civilizations. If the moderates are to predominate, and said Clash to be avoided, they had better start speaking up soon. And I dont mean buy building friendship community centers next to GZ.

@Stouch

“They can kill all the Chrsitians in Baghdad,”

They generally don’t kill Christians in Baghdad- at least the nationalists don’t. Do you know why? Because the Baath party was secular and had both Christians and Shiites in senior positions.

” slaughter Russian in Chechnya and Dagestan,”

Most attacks in the Caucasus kill Muslims, not Russians. Very few Russians live in that part of the Caucasus anymore. Yeltsin caused that conflict, and Putin preserved it.

” kill Indians in Kashmir, and call for the elimination of the State of Israel, but oh no, lets not offend them no Sir.”

You began this ridiculous rant with “they”, as if all Muslims are collectively responsible for this, and in any conflict involving Muslims they must be responsible. It’s idiocy.

And JenWren has it right, I think. In this past election we heard less from the candidates and more from their advertisers. The message seems to be that the debate goes to the loudest and not to the merits of the argument.

It is a disturbing culture of hate–as if moral indignation and were a virtue and not a vice.

With regard to the election itself (and paraphrasing Bob Dylan) money doesn’t talk, it swears. It had hoped that the Argument Culture (a la Deborah Tannin) would pass, but unfortunately it is still with us.