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Pamela Geller’s New Film: The Next Wave of Anti-Muslim Propaganda
Anti-Muslim zealot Pamela Geller’s new film starts with a thud – literally. It’s the sound of a body striking a ground-level roof after plunging from lower Manhattan’s World Trade Center towers shortly after Islamic terrorists flew two jetliners into them in 2001.
Just in case that gratuitously shocking audio image wasn’t gut-wrenching enough, video clips of people leaping from the burning towers – and one striking a roof below – follow. Indeed, the greater part of Geller’s film, “The Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks,” is devoted not to making the case for its hyperbolic title, but merely stirring once again the pain, loss and outrage of the 2001 attack. The movie was screened for the first time at the Conservative Political Action Committee’s (CPAC) annual convention Saturday. The film will make its New York City premiere on Feb. 20 – Muhammad’s birthday.
The movie, produced by Geller, founder of Stop Islamization of America (SIOA), and Robert Spencer, principal of the Jihad Watch website, examines the controversy over the Park51 project – the so-called Ground Zero “mega-mosque.” Developer Sharif El-Gamal purchased the unoccupied building at 45-51 Park Place in lower Manhattan – two blocks from the World Trade Center site – in June 2009. He and Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf received city approval to build a 13-story mosque and community center there.
The “seminal, ground-breaking” film (as described on SIOA’s website) is intended to cast the Park51 controversy as a critical turning point in America’s war on terror – but despite incessant yanks on the viewer’s heartstrings, the 87-minute film makes a remarkably thin case for its provocative claim that it represented “the second wave of the 9/11 attacks.” The first 35 minutes and the last 20 minutes are almost entirely devoted to an emotional recounting the horror of the 9/11 attacks – often from the viewpoint of surviving family members – and a belabored critique of the mainstream media for allegedly ignoring or slanting the mosque controversy. The half-hour in between takes a cursory, one-sided look at questions about Rauf and El-Gamal, their financing, and about their alleged connections to radical Islamic figures.
The 9/11-related emotionalism thickly embedded throughout the movie serves a clear purpose. Like Geller and Spencer themselves, the presentation blurs any distinction between radicalized Muslim fundamentalists bent on violence, and Islam itself, thereby implying that the former accurately represent more than 1.5 billion nonviolent Muslims worldwide. It further interweaves concerns about Rauf’s “insensitivity” for choosing that particular location (Geller, at one point, says she has “no problem with mosques” in general) and insinuations about the developers’ motives (which imply Geller would object to the project even if it were moved). So is the film about a single offending mosque, a dangerous radical cleric allegedly masquerading as a moderate, or generalized anti-Muslim hostility? Yes.
“On its face [the project is] a terrible idea,’ Geller says on the film. “It reveals Islam and Islamic supremacism. … If it was truly about healing, they would withdraw it. It is a supremacist act to callously dismiss the pain and the grief they’re causing. I find their dismissiveness radically intolerant.”
Adds Spencer: “We want to give a voice to [opponents of the project], and to express the frustration and the anger the American people have in the face of the mainstream media’s indifference and complicity with this effort.” The movie’s aim, Spencer said, was “pointing out what the cynical agenda of the mosque organizers really is, and how it will be understood in the Muslim world.”
Even though the site is not actually at Ground Zero, Geller says it should be considered “sacred ground” because landing gear from one of the crashed airliners fell there. Spencer goes further, stating – without any supporting evidence whatsoever – that the Park51 project would be a “celebration” of an Islamic “conquest” rivaling the greatest in history. “This will be the triumphal mosque of all triumphal mosques,” he says. “It will outdo the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa mosque on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, or second only to them.” (It also would evidently be the first “triumphal mosque” ever built with a swimming pool and basketball court open to the public.)
The few details presented by the film are typically offered without identifying sources, making it difficult to separate fact from opinion. Geller at one point asserts that there have been “20,000 radical Islamic attacks since 9/11,” without mentioning that all but a handful of these attacks have occurred in the embattled Middle East and that other Muslims have been the primary targets.
The crisply edited production gives so little face time to Rauf and other supporters of the community center that it is hard to avoid the term “propaganda.” On CBS’ “60 Minutes,” Rauf – an American born to an Egyptian father and Polish mother – denounces the 9/11 terrorists. “We have to wage peace. The military campaign against radical extremists from my faith community is a military campaign. The campaign for winning hearts and minds is an important part of that campaign. We know how to do it, and we’re committed to doing it. We’re ready willing and able to serve our country and serve our faith tradition. … We have condemned 9/11. I pray for the souls of your loved lost ones. If 9/11 happens ever again, I want to be the first to die. Muslims want to stand right there to say that we are here. It’s my duty as an American Muslim to stand between you, the American non-Muslims, and the radicals who are trying to attack you.” Though the “60 Minutes” clip is available on SIOA’s website, none of Rauf’s sentiments are reflected in the film.
Perhaps the sneakiest edit in the film is a clip from CNN reporter Deborah Feyerick’s interview of project developer El-Gamal. At one point, she asks him, “For those who would say, ‘This [project] is not an olive branch to greater understanding, this is more an act of defiance,’ what would you say to those people?” Geller’s film cuts off El-Gamal’s response, making it appear as if he is stumped by the question. In the full clip, El-Gamal actually pauses for a moment, then says, “This is an olive branch.”
The film’s credibility isn’t helped by several commentaries by blogger Andrew Breitbart – now infamous for having publicized secretly recorded videos of right-wing “sting” operations against the community group ACORN and Planned Parenthood, and a speech by former U.S. Department of Agriculture official Shirley Sherrod – all of which were revealed to be strategically edited to misinform viewers about what really happened.
Late in the film, Spencer verbalizes what seems to be the real motive of the movie: arguing against any accommodation to Muslims in America: “It’s a threat that we’ve seen from many Islamic leaders in the West, that [Muslims] say that if you don’t grant us this concession, then there will be unrest, there will be anger. You will have to placate us in some other way. … And so the problem is, is that if you start on the road of accommodating shariah [Muslim religious law], if you start on the road of allowing for changes in the way that we do business or changes in the way we that operate our businesses and do our banking or the changes in the way we run our educational system or various other things … then we’re only reinforcing the principle that where Islamic law or practice and American law and practice conflict, then it’s American law and practice that have to give way, not Islamic law and practice. And once we start on that road, there is always more Islamic law to accommodate.”
Of course, that’s entirely false. Nothing in American law would, or even could, allow the use of Muslim religious law — or any other foreign system of law — in American courts. But like the film itself, that does not seem to concern the likes of Spencer and Geller, who are apparently ready to use any bludgeon that comes to hand in their jihad against the Muslim religion and those who practice it.
on February 16th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
*sigh* Apparantly these people don’t know that our country guarantees freedom of religion. They’re clearly not interested in the truth… If you have to edit people’s comments to prove your point, you’re not playing with a full deck.
on February 17th, 2011 at 12:49 pm
This is just like something that I’d bet that the Frankish (you NeoCons would call him a “Freedom” Crusader) Crusader Falk the Repulsive (that is his Real Title) who “Conquered the Holy Land for Christ” – as well as to rape, pillage, plunder, and then, after he’d shut down the Muslims shake-down racket, to set up his own shake-down racket so that he could personally put the squeeze on all of the Christain Pillgrams who he’d supposedly come to the ‘Holy’ Land to save from that fate.
Why he and his descendants even liked to evoke tears of Joy that’d make Glenn Beck Proud, with some Pyrotechnic Displays called “The Descent of the Holy Fire,” that really ‘blew the minds’ of the ignorant Peasants,, slightly less ignorant Yeomen, and barely Literate Noblemens Brats who chunked down some serious gold coin, which they’d just stollen from “the Infidels”, in order to get to take part it the Ceremony; cause then they could go back home and claim to have a Divine Charter – which the people they wanted to Tax Farm would be too scared to Violate – to do just that, Tax Farm Them, while claiming that they’d been touched by the “Holy Fire”, when, in fact, most of them were in on the whole “Crusade” thing for purely financial motives.
That’s what’s “wrong” with Americas Finances; and the Tea Party; and the Not Moral Not A Majority; and the White Supremacists who justify their hatered with some kind of a “Jesus-based” con game.
on February 17th, 2011 at 1:14 pm
All I will say is that I recall the response of Rauf to the plan to build a gay bar next door to the proposed mosque. “Your gay bar won’t build dialogue because it doesn’t consider our sensibilities”. Hmmm, double standard, what?
And this from Abdallah Adhama, the new Imam of the Ground Zero mosque, (he) extols the 19 Islamic terrorists that murdered nearly 3,000 Americans on September 11, 2001 as Islamic heroes: “True Muslims that will enter the highest levels of Muslim Paradise are those who pay the ultimate price of sacrifice with the goal of instituting Sharia, Islamic law,” he explained in a sermon.
I absolutely agree that most muslims just wanna get along like everybody else. But there is a significant radical element, and they hide in plain sight – for those that will see.
Personally, I think building this mosque is in very poor taste. My thoughts have been seconded by many moderate muslims as well.
on February 17th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
Personally I think Louis Stouch’s repeated postings of undocumented slander against Muslims and against Islam are in very poor taste.
on February 17th, 2011 at 5:46 pm
Dont shoot the messenger, Mitch. I simply pass along information. If it doesnt happen to fit with your worldview, thats your problem.
Undocumented? Google “GZ Mosque – Gay Bar”. It was all over the internet friend, to paraphrase the new Geico commercial, what, do you live under a rock? Google the other one, you’ll find it too.
Poor taste is assuming I am wrong. Did you even look?
on February 17th, 2011 at 6:08 pm
I’ve read the information about this new film. To use the events of 9-11 to promote any viewpoint is objectionable. Personally I find such usages obscene. The GOP has used 9-11 imagery often in the last 10 years. They are all wrong to do so. But if anyone objects to this Muslim center, I do hope any “unsavory” business within the perimeters of wreckage or human remains from the “Ground Zero” explosions will also be considered unwanted and inappropriate. Such as any bars, strip clubs, hotels that cater to “hourly” customers, or any business that cater to the basest aspects of human nature such as liquor stores, porn shops, stores that carry self enhancement “toys”. If “Ground Zero” is to be considered a holy shrine of some sort and we know that wreckage and remains spread out in every direction for at least 3 city blocks then we must rethink any type of entity within those perimeters. Not just any religious entity such as the Moslem Center but any socially inappropriate entity such as I’ve listed. Or we can be logical. The Moslem Center is 2 city blocks from the impact site not 20 feet. Two City Blocks. While I strongly object to certain clerics’ interpretation of Islam with regards womens’ rights, to say the location of this Center is somehow a slap in the face of all Americans is ludicrous. The made up hysteria over this Center is pandering to the basest elements of prejudice and ignorance. To put this Center where it is intended is a most excellent idea. Knowledge is the best way to fight prejudice and ignorance. Let non-Muslims see what Islam is really like. And for me personally, give Muslim women living under strict Shiria law the chance to see a world outside those barriers. Groups who hate Muslims can only benefit from a Center in their midst for it hard to hate what you are forced to live with every day. Sooner or later you do learn first tolerance and then acceptance. Women, and Muslim men , who feel that non-Muslims are not righteous or pure will see that virture and clean living is the provenance of personal character and not any particular religious belief. I support this Center because I believe it will free hatemongers from their stupidity and it will open the eyes of women who live among us right now but are still apart.
on February 17th, 2011 at 7:01 pm
The modern descendants of old clubfoot Joe putting the big lie out there for their insidious reasons. The way to handle these people is to laugh at them and lampoon them till they crawl back under their rocks. Or you could bury them under an avalanche of cream pies shouting Mack Sennet is the truth.
on February 17th, 2011 at 9:07 pm
The Community Board of Lower Manhattan overwhelmingly approved the Community Center (the vote was 27-1), which is modeled on the JCC (Jewish Community Center) uptown (The JCC Rabbi is on the Muslim Community Center Board).
Geller is a hate-filled outsider with no business in this neighborhood where decent people live and work. There was enough hate that crashed into the neighborhood on 9/11. Polls of Manhattan residents demonstrate that we support the community center and want the outside agitators who are advancing their personal agendas by manipulating people’s deep grief to stop interfering with our community which traditionally has welcomed immigrants and people of all faiths.
on February 17th, 2011 at 11:02 pm
Stouch, you are probably aware that Park 51 is not a mosque, nor is it on Ground Zero. This means that when you continue to use the term “Ground Zero mosque”, you are consciously, deliberately lying. Does that ever bother you? Does it bother you that you have to lie in order to support your fear-induced beliefs?
And please show me the traditional church or synagogue which would welcome a gay bar next door. These people come up with a ridiculous hypothetical situation which they wouldn’t consider for themselves.
on February 18th, 2011 at 12:50 am
Some people seem to think they “own” 9/11, as if they were personally targeted by the latest boogyman of the political right.
They are afraid of so many people based on skin color and/or religion I don’t see how they make it out their door each day. I feel sorry for them and don’t wish to associate with them and, yes, that’s MY worldview.
on February 18th, 2011 at 8:25 am
It’s always amusing to hear anti-gay, anti-abortion religious conservatives suddenly become outraged at Islam’s less progressive aspects. Maybe they don’t want anybody horning in on their racket.
on February 18th, 2011 at 10:51 am
Well Stouch if it’s all over the internet it must be true. Have you googled “adbucted by aliens” lately? Of course I checked out your post before I called it undocumented. The quotes you cite appear verbatim on countless hate sites and blogs. When I first began reading Hatewatch I pursued a couple of your posts only to find that all the citations led back to Jihad Watch or the JAWA report or a similar source. Assertions which could be independently investigated invariably proved false and/or grossly exaggerated. Quotations were cited without reference to time, place, or context. Based on that experience I concluded that I didn’t need to click the links or drink the kool-aid to know that you are not a reliable source. I consider you a participant in a circle jerk where haters and paranoids whip themselves into an ecstatic frenzy by posting and re-posting unverified information without ever looking into the source. If you want to be taken seriously I will leave it to you to document your posts with a link or other reference that most folks would consider credible. If you are simply attempting to add Hatewatch readers to your circle jerk I wish you speedy ecstasy so that you can get on with something useful during your refractory period.
on February 18th, 2011 at 10:58 am
Its no use debating with the likes of Ruslan.
He suggests I am a liar over the Park 51 not being “at” GZ issue, and completely ignores the fact that the Imam (1) wants his sensitivities observed while (2) on the other hand ignoring the sensitivities of others.
Please tell me Ruslan how this obvious double standard is lost on you?
I’ll make this real simple for all involved. Historically, whenever the muslims conquered a new territory, they sanctify a mosque on the site. Usually this was done by converting a pre-existing christian church into a mosque. The examples are legion.
Why is it so important that the mosque be placed so close to GZ? It obviously offends many people, irrespective of their “rights” to put it where they want it.
If in fact the purpose of this mosque is to build bridges between people, and it seems that it is achieving the exact opposite, then the sensible thing to do is not to push it. That would be the considerate thing to do.
on February 18th, 2011 at 3:08 pm
“Its no use debating with the likes of Ruslan. ”
Yeah, particularly when you are lying.
“He suggests I am a liar over the Park 51 not being “at” GZ issue,”
Let’s see, you called it a mosque, it’s not a mosque. You called it the Ground Zero mosque, it’s not at Ground Zero(in fact there has been an actual mosque closer to GZ all this time).
That’s two lies.
” and completely ignores the fact that the Imam (1) wants his sensitivities observed while (2) on the other hand ignoring the sensitivities of others.”
WHOSE sensitivities? And how far from GZ is far enough?
“I’ll make this real simple for all involved. Historically, whenever the muslims conquered a new territory, they sanctify a mosque on the site.”
Wow, just like Christians. Irrelevant though, since Muslims didn’t conquer New York.
” Usually this was done by converting a pre-existing christian church into a mosque. The examples are legion.”
Except this one, because the analogy is ridiculous. It equates the radical Wahhabists who committed the terrorist attacks with all Muslims everywhere. Second, destroying some buildings hardly counts as a “conquest”. Especially when the people building this center have no affiliation with those extremists.
“Why is it so important that the mosque be placed so close to GZ? It obviously offends many people, irrespective of their “rights” to put it where they want it.”
Offends whom? Screaming ignorant morons who don’t even have a single relative in New York?
Tell me Stouch, how far is far enough?
“If in fact the purpose of this mosque is to build bridges between people, and it seems that it is achieving the exact opposite, then the sensible thing to do is not to push it. That would be the considerate thing to do.”
The considerate thing to do would be to respect freedom of religion.
on February 18th, 2011 at 5:01 pm
There is not word of truth in any thing that radical blogger Pamela Geller says or does, she is liar and a obsessed media whore. Geller has printed lies about myself in her rag of a blog and that is why she is curently defending herself in Tampa Federal Court.
NYC Blogger Pamela Geller has had to replace her Florida lawyer in her $500,000 Federal Lawsuit in the United States District Court Tampa Fl;
Case no 8:11-ev-128-EAK-EAJ.
Bill Warner private investigator
Plaintiff
-v-
Eric E. Schmidt, Google Inc.
Phyllis Barr, Enter Net Inc.
Khalim Massoud, “Jane Doe”, Muslims Against Sharia.
Defendants
See Geller et all lawsuit at link http://pibillwarner.wordpress......naples-fl/
on February 18th, 2011 at 9:32 pm
Lou Stouch,
You’re too funny! Yes, I am LMAO! Interesting, Americans go to other countries and complain when they can’t find a descent steak or burger. Yet, there are Muslims that live here, and you want to deny them the opportunity to practice their faith and religion. Wow! Here’s a question, why is it that anytime someone comes here to live, the right-wingers – from what I believe, want them to give up their sense-of-self, personal identity, language, culture, and traditions? I’m asking this, because, I don’t think anything is ever enough. For example, too short/too tall/too skinny/too fat/too ugly/too pretty/hair too straight/hair too curly/hair to short/hair too long/skin too dark/skin too light – are you following me on this one?
on February 18th, 2011 at 10:03 pm
Muslims are western societies new Jews! Seriously look at the 1700s to 1900s crap spewed about the Jews and it’s almost identical. It’s amazing, hate never really evolves, they say the same stuff about gays that they said about my grandparents (blacks), they say the same stuff about Muslims that they said about Jews. I find it a bit worrying that we (western society) didn’t realise the error of anti-semitism until over six million innocent people lay dead, I doubt that it will take that to wake us up this time but I can’t help but be worried. Ohh…and denying people their right to religious freedom (as well as the right to build whatever religious institution that they want on their private land) makes one just as bad as fanatics trying to violently spread their religion.
on February 19th, 2011 at 2:33 am
If I may add something, several mosques have been built in places like Tennessee, Oklahoma, etc. Does this represent Islamic conquest of those cities?
on February 19th, 2011 at 10:56 am
Pam Geller
Gary Bauer
John Hagee
David Horowitz
play dumb re 9/11
no questions re 9/11
What you have done will be the saving of Israel
You’ll be remembered forever for this
Not only that you’ve been paid for your efforts
Pretty good wages for one little kiss
on February 19th, 2011 at 5:37 pm
The Mosque/Ground Zero discussion is a sidebar in a much more comprehensive discussion that should be taking place in liberal western democracies. That is the extent that we will extend tolerance to practices most westerners would consider simply abhorrent and intolerable. Sharia law, honor killings, female gentital mutilation, arranged/forced marraiges, persecution/intolerance towards alternative lifestyles and rabid anti-semitism have long been considered incompatible with liberal compassionate secular humanistic societies. As an academic who teaches and mingles with numerous Muslims coming to the US to receive an education, I am frequently shocked at their attitudes towards the West and our values. Will our tolerance and acceptance lead us to sanction female genital mutilation of young girls? Should we? Ritual animal killing (Halal food preparation)? Women forced to be covered and accompanied by a male relative? A close friend and Humanities Professor (Jewish Reform, wonderfully literate and compassionate lady who has championed Palestinian rights within Israel) has endured snubs and outright hostility at the hands of a vocal Muslim minority here on campus. How will our ideas and institutions fare in the face of such diametrically opposed values and world views should we find ourselves in a society with a large, vocal activist Muslim minority DEMANDING the right to live in ways oppositional to our liberal progressive democratic way of life?
on February 19th, 2011 at 7:41 pm
A brick is just a cold thing – some people see a weapon and others see part of a building. People see this Mosque as whatever they wish for; a reconciliation or a new threat.
on February 19th, 2011 at 8:07 pm
Well Mitch, I googled GZ Mosque – Gay Bar. And these are the hate sites that came up:
HotAir.com
Examiner.com
FoxNews.com
Mediate.com
TheWeek.com
Advocate.com
Outsidethebeltway.com
FYI, Jihadwatch was the very last one on the first page of results.
Frankly, I am rather tired of attempting a 2 way discussion here as all I do is take abuse. It seems that anyone that disagrees is branded a racist hater – exactly what I would expect when dealing with a fascist ideology.
on February 20th, 2011 at 9:15 am
Linnea said: “these people don’t know that our country guarantees freedom of religion.”
Apparently you don’t know your own Constitution, or nothing about Islam, or neither. Islam is not a religion, but a dictatorial religious State, and as such, it severely contradicts any modern State’s Constitution. You can’t abide by a Constitution and at the same time be a Muslim, because the Koran is itself a Constitution. You can’t have people sworn upon two Constitutions in the same country. They ARE lying about one of them at least, because they can’t be true to both of them. Check it out: Saudi Arabia has the Koran for a Constitution. The Koran is a Constitution, not only a religious book. And Islam is a mobile invasive State, not just a belief about Moses.
It would be helpful if you read the article “Islam 101″ on the Jihadwatch site.
on February 20th, 2011 at 10:06 am
The indelible images of the 911 attacks need to be seen and the hatred that motivated them need to be understood. With each year that passes, the media diminish their coverage, and the horror and outrage diminish. SPLC does a disservice to history by criticizing the depiction of the horror, rather than the horror itself.
on February 20th, 2011 at 10:21 am
I was going to respond but James did a pretty good job.
The only thing I might add is the question, “Who will be the first on the left to complain when the Muslims get their Sharia law and start beheading those who disagree with them?”
East is East and West is West and never the two shall meet…Islam is east and everything else is west.
on February 20th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Oh this is hilarious- conservatives suddenly becoming liberal humanists ONLY when it comes to Islam. You don’t see them attacking fundamentalists Christians who want to repress gays for example, and they are dead set against abortion, but when it comes to Islam suddenly they are radical feminists/gay rights activists. THIS is why the “double standard” is nonsense, because there is another double standard behind it- the fact that conservatives give lip-service to every religious nut-ball under the sun so long as they worship Jesus in addition to the free market. Hell, no wonder the US supports Tayyip Erdogan in Turkey; he’s an Islamist but he loooooooves neoliberal economics.
Ok, on to some of the more hilarious arguments here:
“Islam is not a religion, but a dictatorial religious State, and as such, it severely contradicts any modern State’s Constitution. You can’t abide by a Constitution and at the same time be a Muslim, because the Koran is itself a Constitution. ”
Ummm no, Islam is a religion and the Koran is not a constitution, period. What exists in the Koran are rules that Muslims are expected to follow in their own states, and states ruled by non-Muslims.
“You can’t have people sworn upon two Constitutions in the same country. They ARE lying about one of them at least, because they can’t be true to both of them.”
Wait a second here, are you talking about Muslims, Jews, or Catholics? I can’t tell because this same thing has been said about all three groups at one time or another.
“Check it out: Saudi Arabia has the Koran for a Constitution. The Koran is a Constitution, not only a religious book. And Islam is a mobile invasive State, not just a belief about Moses.”
Calling the Koran the constitution of Saudi Arabia is a bit oversimplified, but since when was America supposed to act according to what Saudi Arabia does(well ok, one could make an argument about that)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....udi_Arabia
Of course it is totally irrelevant what Saudi Arabia does, as the vast majority of Muslims aren’t even Arab, much less Saudi, and the wishes of the Saudi monarchy and the Wahhabists are not incumbent on most Muslims. In fact the people running Saudi Arabia today were once kicked out of Arabia by the Ottomans.
So no, Islam is not a “state”, so either you don’t know what state means or what religion means. For hundreds of years the Christian church acted as a form of the state, crowning kings and influencing law and economics via the works of St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine. Yet Christianity is not, nor has it ever been, a state rather than a religion.
Ok let’s see, next up we have phony left-wing progressive guy:
“That is the extent that we will extend tolerance to practices most westerners would consider simply abhorrent and intolerable. Sharia law, honor killings, female gentital mutilation, arranged/forced marraiges, persecution/intolerance towards alternative lifestyles and rabid anti-semitism have long been considered incompatible with liberal compassionate secular humanistic societies. ”
Ok where to begin with this nonsense. Well, I could ask you to provide some statistics on these practices in the US, but I’d much rather break your heart by pointing out that none of those practices are unique to Islam, nor are several of them backed up by Sharia law. Honor killings, genital mutilation, and forced marriage are not sanctioned by the Koran, and these are certainly not exclusive to Islam.
Honor killings and bride selling have appeared in Christian societies(like the Christians of Albania, who along with the Muslims were bound to follow the Code of Leke, which mandated all kinds of evil practices). Genital mutilation is a practice which has nothing to do with Islam.
When we look at societies with honor killings, we cannot say honestly that it is unique to Muslim societies. We see one common thread in all societies which practice this- weak rule of law(if any), feudal/tribal relations.
Here’s a REALLY crazy concept- why don’t you internet scholars actually find out what the term “honor” actually means, where it comes from, and then maybe you will understand why honor killings have nothing to do with Islam, even if tribal leaders use the Koran to justify such practices(people using creative interpretation of religious texts for ill purposes? ONLY IN ISLAM RIGHT?)
Then this gem…”Will our tolerance and acceptance lead us to sanction female genital mutilation of young girls?”
Please cite the Koranic verse or Hadith that sanctions female genital mutilation. I’ll wait.
Oh, you also made the mistake of writing this: “liberal compassionate secular humanistic societies”
Uh, what country are you talking about here, because it doesn’t exist on planet earth. Those societies which call themselves such are actually the most rapacious, hypocritical states on the planet. Hell, these morons were SUPPORTING ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS for decades, DECADES, all to secure capitalism and private property.
Ok this was from James but I’ll put it here: “It would be helpful if you read the article “Islam 101? on the Jihadwatch site.”
Uh yeah, that would be REAL helpful. It’s like finding out about Judaism from the VNN forum. I’m sure we’ll get an honest, balanced interpretation of what the Talmud really means from those guys.
And now for Lon…”The indelible images of the 911 attacks need to be seen and the hatred that motivated them need to be understood. With each year that passes, the media diminish their coverage, and the horror and outrage diminish. ”
Yes, we need to keep up the horror and outrage, and less logic and thinking. BAD THING HAPPEN!!! US BOMB SOMEBODY NOW!!! WHO NOT MATTER!!! WE ANGRY!! There is something arrogant about Americans wanting to be outraged for ten years after the fact- the US killed more people in Serbia and Kosova with its bombing than Al Qaida killed in New York. Oh and by the way, since when did those guys represent all Muslims?
“East is East and West is West and never the two shall meet…Islam is east and everything else is west.”
Uh yeah, Japan,India, and China are “West”, Bosnia isn’t. Right.
Jesus…it’s like someone dropped an ignorance bomb in this comments section.
on February 20th, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Clearly pleanty of people here subscribe to the idea that when a member of a minority does something it reflects badly on said minority but when a member of the majority does something it reflects badly on the individual. When a fanatical Christian destroyed the Oklahoma city building, it was he who was evil; but when 19 Muslims (19 out of 1,410,000,000) destroyed the World Trade Center it was ALL of ISLAM. If they had been white christians they would be called insane, and you would be SUPPORTING a christian community center on the very same location.
on February 20th, 2011 at 5:31 pm
You hate-filled morons say you fear Shariah law (which is the same as Biblical law), dictatorships, etc. NO, what you fear is religious freedom, we are the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, we are the Land of the Free! We will NEVER condone religious law in our land, we will also NOT condone religious descrimination in this land. And you seem to forget, at one time Europe was the fanatical backwater, the middle east was a beacon of human civilization during Europe’s dark age. No hate, no descrimination, freedom for EVERYONE, that is America. Which brings to mind that adage that conservatives use “love it, or leave it”, are you packing yet?
on February 20th, 2011 at 7:58 pm
It doesn’t seem like civil discussion is possible on this thread, but I’ll ask anyway:
Will women be treated equally in this Islamic Center/mosque?
Women have equal rights under our constitution. Will their rights be upheld?
Does the SPLC or anyone really care? I never hear this issue come up…why not???
Also: Is it possible to criticize others here without calling them misogynist names like “media whore” or other name calling such as “zealot??
on February 20th, 2011 at 8:53 pm
Okay! Here’s the thing, we (meaning the people who comment here, nor SPLC) brought the people into this country. They are here, and that’s that. Sound familiar? Remember anyone, anywhere, could get a loan/home, credit card…? We were told that the immigrants were here, and we had to deal with it. Well, guess what? We have! And yes, I have seen videos of a few clerics/imams that are allegedly from here (the states) saying that on the site hurryupharry.org, but you see, when you come from the inner-city, like me, you kinda get used to things that happen, and learn not to sweat the small stuff.
But, I’d like to say, I have been listening to music from the 60s and 70s, and it seems some of the singers/groups were spot on – all we are doing is repeating history, i.e., the Temptations song, Ball of Confusion, here’s some excerpts, ‘people moving out, people moving in, why, because of the color of the skin, run, run, run, but you sure can’t hide…vote for me and I’ll set you free…tax deductions, fear is in the air tensions everywhere, people all over the world saying end the war, aggravating the middle east…’
then I listened to Edwin Starr’s song, War, and in the lyrics it said that the people said we needed to go to war for our freedoms…
So, again, we need to start paying attention to what is happening. If these songs were written and sung in the 60s and 70s then why are we back at it again? Even Marvin Gaye songs like What’s Going On and Inner-city Blues (Make Me Wanna Holler) talks about the social ills that we are facing today, which is repeating what have been done in the past. Maybe you too, should listen to these songs to find out why “East is East…
on February 21st, 2011 at 1:53 am
From the Dutch Boer’s rape of Africa, to King Leopold’s infamous rape of the Congo, to the British Crown’s savagery against Kenya, to France’s atrocities against the Algerians, to Italy’s use of poison gas against defenseless Ethiopians in their own country, the Japanese declaration against God in their brutal savagery of Nanking, to the prolonged castration of the Palestinians and the West’s continuous flow of subsidies to a growing list of strongmen and dictators worldwide; its no wonder that cowards, simpletons, media maggots, leeches and pimps like Pamela Geller do not possess enough integrity to solve the problems we humans face in this rapidly changing new millennium.
For example: A world economic crisis, not enough food and water for people in the developing and industrialized worlds; climate change; a dwindling shortage of non-renewable fossil fuels and hydrocarbons. The human family is still fighting illiteracy and violence against women and girls, and a growing list of natural disasters that have altered the live of its survivors and taken the lives of its victims. The spiraling and out of control drug trade, domestic prostitution and its business as a global export, the human war on discovering a cure for cancer; and nuclear proliferation; all seem to be the overwhelming focus of intelligent human beings like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the Kennedy Foundation, Mark Zuckerberg, New York’s Mayor Bloomberg, Warren Buffett and a long list of noble people who have leveraged their skills to improve the condition of the human family and who are not plotting its destruction. Although we are not God we never-the-less have God like qualities.
Idiots like Pamela Geller simply don’t have the Christ like qualities of understanding how to resolve conflicts and bring stability when and where its needed, and would rather play with human’s hearts and minds; she would rather see humans continue demeaning and torturing one another. Pamela Geller will be remembered as the woman who decapitated hope for the human family’s survival rather than use her intellect to appeal to human dignity and man’s humanity to their brothers and sisters.
Luqman Abdel Magied
on February 21st, 2011 at 9:37 pm
For Ruslan, I don’t like to make assumptions based on supposition, guesswork or stereotyping, so could you summarize your background and academic experience before I respond?
on February 22nd, 2011 at 8:03 am
“It doesn’t seem like civil discussion is possible on this thread, but I’ll ask anyway:
Will women be treated equally in this Islamic Center/mosque?
Women have equal rights under our constitution. Will their rights be upheld?”
First of all it’s not a mosque, so I figure women would be treated the same way they would in any cultural center. Second, the constitution guarantees equality but it also guarantees the equality of religions(or no religion), which is why you don’t see women ordained as priests in Catholicism, or as pastors in other religions.
I’m a strong advocate of women’s rights but I’m sick of seeing the same bunch who demonize abortion suddenly becoming Crusaders for women’s rights and even gay rights PRECISELY and only when it concerns Islam.
@Deep Ecology. I do not disclose much about my background on here. I realize my pseudonym may throw some people off, so I repeatedly emphasize that I am not Muslim, nor have I ever been. My academic background is not relevant. That being said, respond away.
on February 22nd, 2011 at 12:22 pm
So Stouch has produced another list of websites instead of a single citation that supports his claims. It’s hard to take someone like that seriously and I certainly won’t waste my time trying to disprove his unsupported assertions. He even has the gall to suggest that Fox news might be a reliable source in spite of the fact that they have been shown to be wrong time and again and a recent report even suggests that they make up much of what they broadcast.
“What Ruslan said in his last 2 posts.” Plus if you’re looking for a religion that condones genital mutilation take a look at Judaism. In spite of the long history of male circumcision in and out of the USA I don’t think there has ever been a question of requiring it for all Americans. I did hear recently that there was a period when prison inmates in some states were circumcised regardless of their wishes. As far as I know Islam had nothing to do with it.
on February 22nd, 2011 at 12:41 pm
Islam typically requires circumcision but from what I’ve heard it’s no longer considered necessary for new converts. Many Muslims living in ex-socialist countries also did not have the procedure done, even after the fall of the East Bloc.
What is certain though, is that female circumcision has nothing to do with Islam.
on February 22nd, 2011 at 2:14 pm
@Ruslan – And even if female circumcision had something to do with Islam it would have nothing to do with US law since forcing someone to undergo a medical procedure (except perhap childbirth!) has never been accepted for long as an appropriate role for government.
on February 22nd, 2011 at 4:32 pm
I’ll bet people are wondering why I said the inner-city has dealt with this! Well, if you look back at the early-mid 70s, we did! I remember having to pass near a mosque in L.A. that belonged to the Nation of Islam, these were black muslims. And from what I remember, they didn’t bother anyone, unless, of course, you bothered them. I remember some of the guys selling the newspapers and pies, yet, I also recalled they had their own stores. Some of them lived among us, they didn’t socialize with us, but, they were pleasant when encountered.
on February 22nd, 2011 at 5:26 pm
Thanks skinnyminny. Your post somehow reminded me that I wanted to comment on Deep Ecology’s concern that we might tolerate “Ritual animal killing” in response to pressure from Islam. We already do! It’s called Kosher meat which is essentially identical to Halal meat. We’ve “tolerated” it for years but still he uses this as one more excuse to promote fear and hatred of Muslims. It sounds like this is exactly the sort of thing Geller’s film does.
on February 22nd, 2011 at 9:37 pm
In response to RandyT., who wrote:
“Will women be treated equally in this Islamic Center/mosque?
Women have equal rights under our constitution. Will their rights be upheld?
Does the SPLC or anyone really care? I never hear this issue come up…why not???”
Randy T: No person in America — and that includes women — loses any of his or her rights simply by entering a house of faith. What is illegal under U.S. law outside a mosque is every bit as illegal inside it. A crime committed against someone remains a crime no matter where it is committed or who commits it. Muslims do not, and never will, have a special exemption from the U.S. criminal code. It is no different from the recent situation with some Catholic churches — a priest molesting a child inside a church is just as illegal as anyone else molesting a child outside one.
Shariah law cannot, under any circumstance, supplant U.S. law without first ripping up the Constitution, and there is zero danger of that. No judge in America has the power to ignore U.S. law in favor of shariah or any other legal or quasi-legal standard. Fears about the advent of shariah law in the United States are manufactured out of whole cloth – there is no threat now or on the horizon that American jurisprudence is in any way endangered by it.
Robert Steinback
Deputy Editor, Intelligence Report and Hatewatch blog
Southern Poverty Law Center
on February 23rd, 2011 at 12:37 am
Would be interested hearing about the experiences/observations of those commenting (positive or negative) who have lived or worked in a predominately Muslim country. Please specify which one and duration of stay. For Ruslan especially, is your exposure to Islam primarily through academic study or real-life experiences with Muslims who have immigrated to the West?
on February 23rd, 2011 at 11:32 am
I have spent time in Albania, more time in Turkey, as well as historically Muslim areas of Russia. I have encountered a broad spectrum of Muslims, some more faithful, some atheists. My mother in law is Muslim but we still get on well despite the fact that I am not.
on February 23rd, 2011 at 4:45 pm
Deep Ecology,
I feel that’s an unfair question. Here’s why, you can’t compare the blacks from this country with the blacks from the caribbean, latinos from this country with the latinos from, let’s say, El Salvador, or any other Latin American country. Certainly, you can’t compare the whites from this country to European whites.
I truly think that is the problem, people like to lump everyone into one group/basket. Each country is different, as well as the populations, and language/dialect, in some cases religious practices/beliefs.
on February 23rd, 2011 at 7:44 pm
Mitch,
You’re so right. I guess people like Deep Ecology much rather prefer their foods with hormones/antibotics/fillers/artificial coloring/pesticides and GM type foods.
I’m not Muslim, nor am I vegetarian, but, I do watch what I eat. Personally, I think Kosher and Halal is as close to organic as you can get. I do shy away from farm-raised seafood. I do not eat pork and I do not eat beef.
on February 24th, 2011 at 10:42 am
Skinnyminny,
I disagree wholehartedly with Deep Ecology, but as an engineer-in-training I also must defend technology and the advancement of human society.
1)GM foods eliminate the need for “pesticides/hormones…”
2)Antibiotics prevent the spread of disease and are safe (so long as they are well-crafted, tested, and produced)
3)GM foods are the only currently workable solution to feeding a rapidly growing world population (that is too high as it is), perhaps one day in centuries to come we’ll be able to produce enough organic food (possibly by farming in the asteroid belt or on a terraformed Mars) but until than GM foods (like 90% of all American corn, or the super-nutritious Golden Rice) are here to stay.
on February 24th, 2011 at 12:32 pm
Go Ruslan Amirkhanov! You are one awesome SPLC blog commentor!
on February 24th, 2011 at 5:35 pm
jgt2598
Technology is great and has indeed contributed to the advancement of human society. Like anything it must be evaluated critically and judged by some standard other than just how much money can be made from it.
1)GM foods may eliminate the need for pesticides until insects develop resistance to the gene products that initially kill them. I believe if you do a little research you will find that there is substantial evidence that this is beginning to happen just as weeds are beginning to develop resistance to Round-Up due to its excessive use on “Round-Up ready” crops.
2)Antibiotics prevent the spread of disease only until disease causing organisms become resistant to them. The development of resistance is dramatically accelerated by the prophylactic use of antibiotics especially in livestock raised under conditions that promote the spread of disease.
3)I would love to see citations that support your claim that genetically engineered crops are the only way to feed a rapidly growing population. I am under the impression that inequitable distribution of food and wealth is largely responsible for hunger. It seems to me that the extremely high overhead costs associated with the production of GM crops can only make this worse. I do think there is a future for genetic engineering in agriculture but only to the extent that it can be harnessed to produce better, stronger, more diverse crops instead of simply maximizing profits for Monsanto.
on February 25th, 2011 at 12:01 am
All crops are “GM”, the only difference is that in modern times we are doing it with new methods as opposed to selective breeding or grafting. With that in mind, there is no reason to believe that there is something wrong with modern GM products. The only problems stem from when these corporations use their patents to prevent others from using these seeds.
on February 25th, 2011 at 5:57 pm
SPLC is very wrong about SIOA and Pam Geller, its a human rights org concerned by the rapid growth of the Islamization , Which is not adopting Western Values.
SPLC begins to get very controversial and shows a biased trotskyite view .
on February 25th, 2011 at 6:38 pm
Mitch,
Agree 100%, there are some countries in the EU that refuse to let GM foods on the market, and the ones that do say they must label it as GM.
Rus,
Agree with you also, there’s a famous case in Canada – but, also, it must be noted that sometimes people end up with crops they don’t want.
on February 28th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
Cools “trotskyite view?” Hahahahahahahaha!
on February 28th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
SIOA is clearly not a “human rights” organization since it opposes freedom of religion.
on April 10th, 2011 at 7:48 pm
Pam Gelller is my hero- she has the chutpadik (guts) as a proud Jewish American woman to tell the truth- Anyone here who doubts her words, or her business partner, Robert Spencer, of Jihad Watch, had better prepare to get down on all fours, as did our Obama as he ingratiated himself in front of the world his lips firmly pressed against the shoes of the Saudi prince ,in the subjugation position, and be the dhimmies they were meant to be. Have any of you traveled to europe of late???London, Paris, Berlin, Malmo??