I just wonder if this is the fringe of the “Tea Party” movement, or what it could become. . .

I think you also need to take note, that almost all of the election candidates from the GOP is mostly from corporate or business world. Their philosophy is that gov’t should be run like a business. ***if you look at my comments last year during the election of teas, I said I wouldn’t vote for someone with money from corporate world – and that they should take their millions and retire.

Now, all you have to do is look at what GOP Cynthia Davis, Missouri state rep allegedly said in 2009, “Hunger is a Motivator, is kids are hungry, they should get a job at McDonald’s, they feed you for free…” this was in response to the healthy kids lunch program.

GOP, South Carolina Lt. Gov. allegedly says, “the poor are like stray animals, don’t feed them or they will breed.”

Limbaugh, another GOP, allegedly says hungry kids should get a job or pick up trash.

And last, W. Bush, allegedly said that the rather than the government helping the poor, it should be faithbased organizations and charity groups.

Now, when you look at the chances of teens getting a job, it is almost next to impossible, as adults and seniors are competing for these same jobs.

As far as the deficit, I personally think that at the onset of going to war, we should have sold war bonds, in addition to putting Americans to work. If you look at past wars, housewives and women who didn’t work outside the home went to work to fill jobs needed. Instead, tax-breaks were given to the very wealthy, and most Americans were laid off for cheap labor – especially the construction industry.

http://www.theundergroundinves.....#more-2043

This is exactly correct! it will end up killing the golden goose. I dont know, maybe their goal is one world government/total control or something. it doesnt make sense.

Yes, I am POd at the people making the decisions. I also read today in a very interesting article – internet sure is great – that we can lay all of our problems at the feet of the Central Bankers and the Wall Street types that have infiltrated our political system. the system is not working properly if the rich just keep getting richer and richer and the middl e class keeps getting smaller and smaller.

Nothing anti obama here, but the article said there are more Wall Street types in this administration than in any previous.

The gist of the article is, at some point things break down. we are being lied to about the health of the economy. what I just cant fathom is what the rich hope to accomplish by destroying the middle class – I just dont get it. because at some point, it will come home to roost ie people will rise up and, I dont know, kill em revolt whatever.

If you wanna scare yourself to death, go to this site and watch the video on our national debt. we spent $430 BILLION last year on the INTEREST alone. the numbers are staggering and shocking – we might not ever be able to pay it all back. admittedly it has gotten way outa hand beginning with Bush Jr., although I think we can trace the beginning back to Reagan.

perhaps a bit off topic, but certainly related to the Big Govt conversation.

I’m just saying, we won’t have jobs, no where to go, except sit around and drink tea. Is this the true meaning of the tea party, and not taxed enough already? Because for sure, the cuts they want, people will not be able to afford beer, and just about any other beverage.

With taxes, you should look at Greece and their recent riots. The people were saying the rich were avoiding taxes, and yes, I believe they had a flat tax. But, either way, the rich did not pay taxes.

Now that I understand and fully agree with you’re getting pissed about the salaries/taxes, let’s flip the script. Tea Party and GOP continue to tell the public that we can’t afford government pensions. Yet, did you hear today, the feds raided the government pensions to be able to stay afloat.

Let’s not forget, when they start laying off the lower rank and file workers, guess what! The few cars and homes being purchased will stop. That will mean more layoffs of the people selling cars and homes. That will mean more foreclosures, so it will affect more neighborhoods with squatters…

I read that there were a number of senior employees doing nothing at the USPS. Again, I said that in the comments above, that management doesn’t move a finger, arm or leg to do the work. So, I assume we agree that top heavy management is not working.

You also mentioned the bonuses and pay of CEO’s. I think a lot of us agree with you there, in fact, Lou Rawls spoke to this in his song, “Natural Man.” Not sure if you heard it or not, but, some of the lyrics are, “I don’t want no gold watch for working 50 years from 9 to 5. While the boss is guzzling champagne and I drink beer in some dive…” But go figure, now days they don’t even want to give you a gold watch or your supposed vested pension, but, instead just a pink slip. I am assuming from your comments, you are not mad at the people still working, instead, you are mad at the people at the top making the decisions.

Its amazing how much things have changed for the worst in just 15 years. I mean, obviously not everyone was propserous before, but it sure was better than now. Personally, now when I see these guys making multiple hundreds of millions in a year, it does disgust me. Thats not to say I believe in handouts, mind you, but Charlie Sheen in Wall Street was pretty right – how many yachts do you need. Does Larry Ellison at Oracle need a 550 foot yacht? Does the Russian in London need a $250 million house?

I can see this stuff and dont like it, but neither do I necessarily say we just take it from them. And I gotta say this too – 7 billion people on this planet, man, thats a lot. Sometimes I feel like everything is coming to a head – quickly – and somethings gotta blow. And then I think everything has gotten too big for anyone to ever get a handle on it.

Given everybodies POd at me, let me give a piece of my mind.

“I think it sucks that so many jobs have gone overseas. I had a problem with Windows today, and spoke with people not only in India but also the Philipines. I think it sucks that American Greetings here in Cleveland got $96 million in tax breaks over 10 years to keep their company here instead of moving out of state. I think it sucks that hedge fund managers get carried interest tax treatment instead of capital gains like everybody else. I think it sucks that the CEO of our local utility made $11mm last year. I think it sucks that threse guys get huge bonuses for cutting costs by shipping jobs overseas. I think it sucks we’ve spent our way into oblivion in Iraq and Afghanisatan and that we keep making new terrorists. I think it sucks the rich got those tax breaks, although I hate the argument that “we need the money” even if we do. I thijnk it sucks that Wall Street got the big bailout and we got the bill – and I worked on WS for 15 years. Especially since I dont know that we have even fixed the problem, which was derivitives.”

We agree on virtually all of this. You see the key is understanding how all these problems relate to one another.

I think it sucks that so many jobs have gone overseas. I had a problem with Windows today, and spoke with people not only in India but also the Philipines. I think it sucks that American Greetings here in Cleveland got $96 million in tax breaks over 10 years to keep their company here instead of moving out of state. I think it sucks that hedge fund managers get carried interest tax treatment instead of capital gains like everybody else. I think it sucks that the CEO of our local utility made $11mm last year. I think it sucks that threse guys get huge bonuses for cutting costs by shipping jobs overseas. I think it sucks we’ve spent our way into oblivion in Iraq and Afghanisatan and that we keep making new terrorists. I think it sucks the rich got those tax breaks, although I hate the argument that “we need the money” even if we do. I thijnk it sucks that Wall Street got the big bailout and we got the bill – and I worked on WS for 15 years. Especially since I dont know that we have even fixed the problem, which was derivitives.

So its not like I am some evil capitalist pig hater with no compassion, I have plenty of it. I support a kid through Child Fund International, a Guatamalan kid, every month. And I support a dog through ASPCA, every month. And I give blood every 2 months. And I give to the Red Cross and the Local APL. And I only work part time but I still do it. So there.

I didnt know that obama won by a vast majority. In looking at the electoral map, he won both coasts and not much in the heartland. I think he had 52% of the vote. If 51% is a majority, I hardly call that a VAST majority.

Oh because all them Messicans vote to help each other out? How’s that not racist? I thought that the nativists could claim big support of legal Mexican residents who are supposedly pissed off about illegal immigration. And I also believe that Hispanic citizens might have a few other issues they are concerned about when they decide which dictator to elect in 2012.

In the US yes, in other parts of the world, no. So now you think people should have to work all their lives?

” So please to explain all of these old social nets? Free land? Well, it was a brand new country. (Oh, thats right, it was the Indians.) ”

Yes, and the government either purchased the land and sold it at a loss to settlers, or took it outright with the military and did the same(selling it at a loss or even giving it away free). The government did the same thing for the railways. The industrialization of every major world power was carried out with the help of the government.

“Vets getting college for WWI? Thats not a safety net, that was for services rendered pal.”

WWII, they didn’t get what they deserved for WWI. Bonus army, ever heard of it? The GI bill and those programs were designed to avoid the problems which occurred after WWI.

“.) The railroads getting free land – they built the RRs for gawds sake, they invested the capital to tame the country. ”
Again, government.

“Focus, focus Ruslan – were talking welfare and social entitlements, not the buildout of infrastructure or reward for serving yoiur country – your comparing apples to oranges.”

Sorry I don’t see how welfare for big corporations or settlers is somehow different from Social Security or help for the unemployed.

“Big government? How about agencies watching agencies watching agencies. Go to the DOL/EBSA website sometime, I was judt there. Theyve got so many assistant Secretaries of this and that, ther eis no way you can make any sense of it.”

So if you can’t understand something this constitutes “big government”? Do you think it was any easier back in the 19th century?

” Post Office? Had a chat with my mailman yesterday. A 30 year veteran nearing retirement. They have 6 – count em – 6 senior level employees in my cities main PO doing, basically, nothing. No way to get rid of them, union. Tough cookies.”

A large state apparatus is normal for a capitalist system.

“Big government Ruslan? Big governernment is when its so big nobody knows what the hell is going on.”

Nobody knows what’s going on? Maybe you don’t know, because you don’t check. But I have a suspicion there are people that know what’s going on in the government, and you can check too. You have more ability to learn about the functions of any government agency than any previous generation.

” And we are there, and given all the vested interests, the problem is probably not fixable. Think of the flat tax for a moment. Maybe a perfect solution, if it werent for the 1 million accountants now out of a job. Aint gonna happen.”

Good. You want to see what a flat tax looks like? Look at Russia. It’s had a flat tax since 2001 and the rich still avoid their tax obligations.

“Military spending? Yes, we are by far the largest, But I saw just today, “again in the Economist, that we spend like 6 or 7% of GDP on military. .”

You might want to check that somewhere, because we spend more than China which is in the middle of modernization of its military, and several other military powers combined.

“And those useless military projects are probably responsible for more new technology development than the private sector. Breakthrough technology, Ruslan, not iPads. Wasnt the internet a military project? think so……”

So do you LIKE “big government” or hate it?

“I got it from the SPLC website dude. Read it yourself, do I have to do everything for you?”

In a way, yes. If one makes a claim and another questions it, it is normally up to the claimer to back up that claim.

What you eventially find did not say that most sovereigns are antisemitic. It instead pointed out that the roots of the movement are antisemitic. These are two very different statements and the latter cannot be reasonably disputed.

Great work upholding rationality on this post. (It’s a dirty job but someone’s got to do it.)

Mr. Stouch:
“I think the general feeling is, the government doesnt represent the people anymore.”

My general feeling is that when Barack Obama won the presidency by a huge majority, we saw what “the people” wanted. That’s how democracy works. Trying to go back and undo the work of the democratic process just because the “right” people aren’t getting their way is anti-American, in my opinion.

I did not “tout the success of immigration in Denmark”, I pointed out the superior standards of living in countries with strong social safety nets.

“Do I see the development of an international trend here? What could possibly insitigate a demand for more penalties for foreign criminals?”

Can you give a good reason why foreign criminals should be punished more for the same crimes?

” I am sure it couldnt be because of a higher propensity to crime, it must be simple discrimination.”

Has anyone proven that people of a certain ethnicity have a higher propensity for crime? Quite close to Denmark is lily white Poland, and the Baltic states. How does their crime rate stack up to that of Denmark? Are Balts or Slavs more prone to crime?

” And as for a limit on welfare for immigrants, yep, must be discrimination,”

Yes, it is discrimination. It’s saying you can live and work here and do all our crappy jobs while you pay into our social welfare net, but you can’t get the same benefits as people who got here before you.

” couldnt be those Imams in the mosques educating their flocks on how to game the system. Not to suggest that the Muslims have a monopoly on gaming the system, by the way.”

Since when are Imams doing this?

I” go back to the simple fact that folks are POd at politicians that seemingly could care less what their constituents would like to see regarding governance. This is no longer representative democracy – they do what the hell they want, and damn the torpedoes. What we need are term limits, not lifetime political tenure.”

Nonsense. The politicians, their parties, and media use these issues to whip up people’s anger, and it gets them votes.

“Ruslan, the connection between Nakba and Soveriegns is anti-semitism, and the lack of coverage by the SPLC of the former.”

By that logic the connection is that many Sovereigns have mustaches, and so do many Arabs, but the SPLC covered neither for some sinister reason. So to get this straight, you’re saying that if the SPLC writes an article about the Sovereigns, and it mentions some of their adherents’ anti-semitism, it must necessarily throw in examples of anti-semitism around the world even if they are not connected in any way?

I think there’s a tendency in politics for phrases to gradually start to be used to mean either “anything I like” or “anything I’m against”. This is an example.