Hatewatch Tweets
Hatewatch is managed by the staff of the Intelligence Report, an investigative magazine published by the Alabama-based civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center.
Louisiana High Court Says Confederate Flag ‘Offensive’
In spring 2009, a Caddo Parish, La., prosecutor struck Carl Staples from the pool of potential jurors in the capital murder trial of Felton Dejuan Dorsey.
Staples was not removed from the jury pool because he opposed the death penalty. Rather, the prosecutor dismissed Staples after he expressed reservations about serving as a juror in a building whose courtyard features a prominently displayed Confederate flag.
“[The flag] is a symbol of one of the most … heinous crimes ever committed to another member of the human race,” Staples, who is black, told the judge. “You’re here for justice, and then again you overlook this great injustice by continuing to fly this flag which … put[s] salt in the wounds of … people of color. I don’t buy it.”
That summer, a jury of 11 white people and one black person found Dorsey guilty of first degree murder and recommended he be sentenced to die by lethal injection. Dorsey is black. The victim was white.
The population of Caddo Parish is around 50% black, but court records show that the white prosecutor in Dorsey’s case struck potential jurors who were black at three times the rate he struck potential jurors who were white.
Dorsey appealed the case all the way to Louisiana’s high court. He was joined by the American Civil Liberties Union, which filed a friend of the court brief arguing that the flag’s presence imperiled justice in two ways: First, by excluding jurors like Carl Staples, and second, by “implicitly encouraging courthouse participants to treat African-American defendants and victims as second-class citizens.” The court on Sept. 7 upheld Dorsey’s conviction and sentence on procedural grounds – but conceded in its decision “that the display of a confederate flag would be offensive to some.”
For that reason, attorney Anna Arceneaux, who is counsel for the ACLU’s Capital Punishment Project, remains optimistic. “We fully expect that trial judges and defense attorneys in the future are going to be objecting, and frankly after this decision there’s no reason not to,” she told the Southern Poverty Law Center. “We’re hopeful that in the future when [the issue] is better preserved in a way that’s satisfactory to the Louisiana Supreme Court that they will take a stand that the presence of the Confederate flag is intolerable in death penalty case.”
In its brief, the ACLU cited academic research showing that “exposure to the Confederate flag increased the expression of negative attitude toward African-Americans among whites.” Regardless, removing the emblem that flaps in front of Caddo County’s courthouse will likely be an uphill battle, for the Confederate flag is a contentious issue across the South. Its defenders claim that it’s a symbol of “heritage, not hate” – but as Ta-Nehisi Coates of the Atlantic points out, “the question isn’t “Do you hate black people?” It isn’t “Would you invite a black person to your barbecue?” It’s “Are you more offended by black people who recoil in horror at the Confederate flag, than you are by the flag’s history?”
Only two weeks ago, officials in the city of Lexington, Va., voted to ban the flying of Confederate flags on poles owned by the city. The Southern Heritage group Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) is promising to fight the ordinance in court. Around the same time, the Georgia chapter of the SCV hoisted three enormous Confederate battle flags on private land along that state’s highways. The largest reportedly measures 30 by 50 feet.
Two years ago, Bishop Arthur Dowdell, an elected member of the Auburn, Ala., City Council and its only black member, was formally condemned by his fellow council members after removing four of the dozens of flags the United Daughters of the Confederacy had placed at a cemetery in honor of Confederate Memorial Day, a state holiday in many Southern states.
The Southern Poverty Law Center in 1993 won a suit to remove the battle flag that had flown atop the Alabama Capitol building since 1963, when arch-segregationist Gov. George Wallace raised it as a symbol of defiance. In 2000, the secessionist League of the South (LOS), a neo-Confederate hate group, rallied in Alabama and several other states to demand flag’s return.
And South Carolina flew the battle flag on its capitol from 1962 till 2000, when, following a major protest led by the NAACP, it became the last state to end the practice. A Confederate flag still flies atop a 30-foot pole in front of the building. This July, the NAACP renewed its objections, asking South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley, who is of Indian descent, to remove the emblem entirely. Her spokesman told the media, “Revisiting that issue is not part of the governor’s agenda.”
on September 14th, 2011 at 5:16 pm
Flying a flag ‘implicitly encourages people to treat african americans as second class citizen.”
What does affirmative action implicitly treat european americans as? Last class citizens?
on September 14th, 2011 at 5:43 pm
The confederate flag is a symbol of a heritage of hate, dehumanization, rape, and murder.
on September 14th, 2011 at 8:26 pm
And, it was NOT the flag for the CSA. Rather it was a BATTLE flag to show the confederate troops in battle, and even then not but all battalions. It is not just a simple of the segregationist south, but rather a battle flag of defiance as war against the very Union of the USA. It should not more be considered proper to fly in terms of the states as the Swastika Flag would fly over the Reichstag in Berlin to “give memory and honor” to those who died defending Germany.
Yes, our first amendment will allow it to be flown by individuals on private property, but when a State entity flies it, it is nothing more than a defiance of the USA and a not too subtle hint that they do not consider their state fully in and committed to that uion.
on September 14th, 2011 at 9:23 pm
rroberts…WAAAH WAAH the poor european americans!! What is this world coming to when the poor european americans who still celebrate genocide and land theft every october, can’t also fly a flag that also symbolizes good old fashioned values like oppression, murder, fear and hate. What is happening? America is being ruined by progressives and everybodys being MEAN to the right!!
on September 14th, 2011 at 10:34 pm
“What does affirmative action implicitly treat european americans as? Last class citizens?”
Uuuh….Yes, affirmative action is JUST LIKE several hundred years of chattel slavery. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. This is why conservatives set the standard for logic and reason!!!
But seriously, I have a perfect solution to this. Let them fly their confederate battle flag, but they must fly it next to another flag, one of the many flags flown by Al-Qaeda affiliated insurgents(sometimes called the Darm al-Harb flag I believe). After all, we’re talking about two groups of terrorists who wanted to destroy the United States.
on September 15th, 2011 at 6:46 am
I would no more expect justice in a courthouse displaying the Confederate flag than I would in one that had a Swastika hanging over the entrance.
I cannot imagine what a person of color feels when they see a Confederate flag flying over a government building, but I’m sure a sense of fairness isn’t a part of it.
on September 15th, 2011 at 9:34 am
I’m Black and personally that flag doesn’t offend me. If people would just stop and THINK you would know why. If not let me tell you: More dirt has been done under the FEDERAL flag than ever could be done under the Confederate flag. I love my country but that doesn’t mean it’s right all the time
on September 15th, 2011 at 9:43 am
Apologists for the “Stars and Bars” sometimes argue that it reperesents no more than Southern history and culture- this is BALONEY. Given that the Confederate flag was (and is) frequently used by the Klan and other racist hate groups, flying it from public buildings is as provocative as flying the Hakenkreuz(swastika) but insisting disingenously that you are not a Nazi sympathiser or harbour anti-Semitic views!
on September 15th, 2011 at 9:48 am
More stories leaning towards how bad Whites are while you ignore daily actions by other races towards Whites,in the name of equality?….Arent Whites,under the Constitution,entitled to the same treatments and protections as others,including the right to have the entire story of ALL hate crimes told in the media?
on September 15th, 2011 at 9:56 am
Louisiana even has a state law protecting the Confederate battle flag from any kind of desecration.
on September 15th, 2011 at 10:02 am
To be honest, I look at the Confederate flag just like I look at every other flag: it’s just a flag made of cloth, most likely outside the United States. I understand the history and it’s meaning just like the Nazi Germany flag, but I see them as just flags.
on September 15th, 2011 at 10:05 am
Rroberts, white women have benefitted the most from affirmative action. But don’t worry, it’s been eliminated or watered down in most states. It will probably be eliminated altogether. I know you would like that.
on September 15th, 2011 at 10:11 am
I see the flag for what it is, the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia and the standard of the CSA Navy,
No diffrent than the Gadsden flag that many Americans carry at TEA Party rallies all across America, the first flag of the U.S. Marines.
Why is the left always trying to change history with revisionist history and changing the definition of words to further their political socialist agenda ?
on September 15th, 2011 at 10:33 am
Matthew, as an American Indian (admittedly didn’t know it until middle age – family secret kept because of fear), it causes me to tense up and feel fear and a tiny bit of nausea whenever I see that symbol of hate and lies. (I saw those flags along with Patriot Movement signs and Tea Party Signs, every time I went to school, all in the same yards.) I did work for business owners who displayed those flags. They all talked in public about how race problems were a thing of the past and how quotas forced them to hire people who weren’t as qualified. They talked like they were intelligent and “let’s be fair and honest and we’re good citizens who are concerned about treating people fairly!” They also repeated the BS “It’s heritage, not hate!” regarding the sign.
PRIVATELY, they used racial slurs all the time, bragged of the different ways they avoided hiring minorities (and even told horrific stories of discrimination they were part of), and even organized together to help each other only hire nice white European-Americans (and to repress wages and to find ways to get away with mistreating their employees).
Many of the other business owners who did NOT fly the sign were the same way, but they actually were a tiny bit more intelligent and kept it better hidden. Many of those “Good Christian” businessmen (both Flag-showing and non-Flag-showing) pressured me to attend the “Business seminars” they organized and were part of – teaching small business owners how to destroy unions, but more importantly some of those “Seminars” or meetings were on how to not hire minorities and get away with it.
Based on the things I observed up until the day it became public knowledge we are American Indian: if I see that flag, I expect to find railroading, racist bigots, violence, and LIES where it flies. NOT Justice. It is a symbol of the inversion of justice.
(When it was discovered I am American Indian, I lost just over 60% of my customers in one month. A couple even railed at me for “Deceiving us about your identity!!!” Since then we’ve been thrown out of churches because of race, lost jobs, and experienced the normal abuse minorities get used to in this country.)
rroberts – last class citizen? Talk about projection! I’ve been there and live in that situation right now. I don’t think you have a clue as to what REAL discrimination is like.
on September 15th, 2011 at 11:47 am
“More stories leaning towards how bad Whites are while you ignore daily actions by other races towards Whites,in the name of equality?….Arent Whites,under the Constitution,entitled to the same treatments and protections as others,including the right to have the entire story of ALL hate crimes told in the media?” – Richard Farnsworth
Since you’re making this claim, why don’t you post something? Don’t be shy. And again, if a perpetrator and a victim have different backgrounds, it doesn’t automatically mean it’s a hate crime, and that even means if the victim is black. BTW, race isn’t real.
“I see the flag for what it is, the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia and the standard of the CSA Navy,
No diffrent than the Gadsden flag that many Americans carry at TEA Party rallies all across America, the first flag of the U.S. Marines.
Why is the left always trying to change history with revisionist history and changing the definition of words to further their political socialist agenda ?” – APACHERAT
Who here is trying to, according to you, revise history?
on September 15th, 2011 at 12:11 pm
“More stories leaning towards how bad Whites are while you ignore daily actions by other races towards Whites,in the name of equality?”
When did Confederate = White?
“No diffrent than the Gadsden flag that many Americans carry at TEA Party rallies all across America, the first flag of the U.S. Marines.”
Except that the Gadsen flag was flown by those loyal to the United States, whereas the Confederate flag was that of aggressive, separatists.
on September 15th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
The European-Americans will always be representative of the HYPOCRISY that exists in American history! Being that the E/As were committing genocide vs the Native Americans, while fighting for freedom from Brithsh rule, all the while enslaving the African & claiming he would always be in need of White folks’ aid and assistance. What a crock! Kudos to the commentator who pointed out the real beneficiaries of affirmative action – white women and the watering down of this benefit by states, which is also happening to voting rights (see changes sought by Arizona, Florida and Texas)!
on September 15th, 2011 at 1:19 pm
The Gadsden Flag might also be called the forked-tongue flag, a much more appropriate name considering the tea party agenda.
on September 15th, 2011 at 3:01 pm
APACHERAT said the following, “Why is the left always trying to change history with revisionist history and changing the definition of words to further their political socialist agenda?”
Holly Moses! Revisionist History? Changing the definition of words? Did you watch any of Newt Gingrich’s specials on the faith of our founding fathers? Talk about complete phony histories. Read a little about what Madison did as President to try and enforce the establishment clause he helped write. He not only opposed Chaplains in the Congress he opposed them in the military in times of peace and agonized having them in war.
Definition of words? Healthcare equals Obamacare, Bailout of Corporations equals Socialism, off shore tax breaks equals a free market, you have got to be kidding me.
I am a Socialist and proud of it. President Obama is no Socialist and the vast majority of the Democrats in Congress do not have a Socialist agenda, by far. Heck they don’t even have a labor friendly agenda. The President bailed out the auto companies, we the People owned them, meanwhile he allowed them to lay off workers and even ship more jobs overseas at the same time. He didn’t even have them place a union rep on their board of directors. That is not a Socialist, or even a real lefty.
They called this form of Anti-Intellectualism and racist hatred back in the 1850’s the Know Nothings and it still applies today. “I know nothing but my country…”
on September 15th, 2011 at 5:39 pm
As a middle aged White southerner who grew up in the south, the ruling on this flag being offensive makes me very happy. As President Carter once said on similar issue to this, and I’m paraphrasing as don’t have exact quote in front of me….”Don’t tell me something isn’t racism because as an older White guy from the south, I know racism when I see it.” Ever since I was a child and school integration was starting to take effect it was long evident to everybody both Black “and” White in the south that the Confederate flag was all about racism. Oh the code words of “southern heritage, or southern pride” were used to defend it, but given that the goal of the Confederacy was the continuation of slavery against other human beings (non White) and during integration keeping segregation and Jim Crow alive, it is and always has been racism plain and simple. Southern Pride has never fooled anybody living in the south as to what that really meant. It should never have flown on any official buildings of any federal or state govt since the end of the war except for war museums and battle graveyards. As several here have commented, as a White man I can only “imagine” what the sight of this flag means to minorities of any type, given that is flown from actual govt. buildings who have dominion over them as well as us.
Folks have been silent and thereby complicit in this racism for far too long and we need to speak up at every time it rears it’s ugly head because racism is a worldwide problem, but the racism here in the U.S. affects each and every one of us no matter what our race is.
And remember that while this flag can bring chills to minorities who see it openly flown on govt. buildings such as courthouses, it also brings “strength” to those who would seek to deny or repress those same minorities in that same courthouse as their justification in their eyes is flying from that very same building.
on September 15th, 2011 at 6:28 pm
When I see that flag I get the urge to crawl over a welded door and into a bright orange 69 charger and yell
Yeeeeeeeee….. Hawwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is where diversity get us.
Everyone fighting over their own interpretation of
the confederate flag. It means different things to different people. Some are offended. Some are emboldened.
I’m not from the South. I’m not subjected to the very strong opionions of the people from that area.
It seems to me you folks have a feud on your hands.
Good luck to you. Sick em flash!
on September 16th, 2011 at 1:26 am
“Its defenders claim that it’s a symbol of “heritage, not hate” A heritage of TREASON.
on September 16th, 2011 at 8:20 am
As a Confederate American Citizen forced into the USA empire at the point of a bayonet, I would not trust any of these naysayers of the Flag or the Southern Poverty Law Center to be on any jury – they are not my peers, they don’t even believe in the Original Constitution. They are lincolnites and support the murdering, trashing, stealing and destruction of my kinsman who defended their land in 1861-1865 form the yankee imperialistic invasion.
on September 16th, 2011 at 9:41 am
The flag represents a white supremacist organization of states, as stated by the VP of the confederacy in his infamous cornerstone speech. Any one stating otherwise, is simply trying to revise history.
on September 16th, 2011 at 10:33 am
Give it up JoSouthern. Your side lost. Get over it!
on September 16th, 2011 at 11:13 am
Jo, you were never a citizen of any state known as the “Confederate States of America”, and when that entity did exist it was unrecognized by other nations.
on September 16th, 2011 at 11:29 am
Perhaps the Nazi flag should be flown in certain German regions where Nazism was particularly popular or where it originated.
Its basically the same thing.
The Confederate Flag stands against the UNITED States of America, and to the Constition of the United States of America. The Confederate States were specifically opposed to being a part of this country, and that is why they raised their own flag for the brief duration of the ill-informed secession from the United States.
Perhaps, in fact, they should have been allowed to secede. The rest of us would be better off without those inhumane, cretinous bible-thumpers.
on September 16th, 2011 at 6:27 pm
I don’t find the Confederate flag any more offensive than a Mexican flag being waved in our American streets by the “La Raza” marchers. However it does offends me, as an American citizen to see foreign flags waved in U.S. streets while these people urge the U.S. to abide by their demands, whatever that is. Just because we’re a “diverse” society, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be offended by foreign flags waved here as if its their own country of origin. That is what I find offensive.
on September 16th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
The winners of battles usually get to write the history. If sucession is wrong, then the United States should still be a colony belonging to England/Great Britian. Now that battle for independence was a conspiracy theory!!!
Ari, get off the bottlle and come back and repair my roof. It has rained alot lately in the south!
on September 16th, 2011 at 9:44 pm
Ruslan Amirkhanov said,
on September 16th, 2011 at 11:13 am
Jo, you were never a citizen of any state known as the “Confederate States of America”, and when that entity did exist it was unrecognized by other nations.
Officially no other nation recognised the CSA but many did support the cause. Officialy recognizing the CSA would be decaring war against the USA. Look at Great Britain, Great Britain armed the CSA. They built the CSS Alabama and many other war ships for the CSA The majority of the sailors aboard CSA naval ships were British subjects. No nation is on record of ever challenging a CSA naval ship or merchant ship.
Some historians believe there was a conspiracy, that Great Britain where the American abolitionist movement was born and financed from were also the same who were encouraging the Southern States to succeed from the Union, the same people who kept arming and supplying the CSA. There was a lot more to do with the American Civil War than most are aware of. Slavery had little to do with the cause of the war. If you read Lincolns papers, it was more to do with how was the Union going to pay the bills without taxes from the Southern States ? They use to teach that in the classrooms many years ago (pre 1965), Today they teach revisionist history.
on September 17th, 2011 at 12:02 pm
@shadow wolf
The Mexican flag does not represent slavery. It was created after the Mexican revolution against Spain.
on September 18th, 2011 at 11:59 am
The Stars and Bars is, above all, a flag of treason and secession from the United States and, as such, has no business being flown on the public buildings of any jurisdiction in this country, least of all a courthouse. I’ll not object to its presence at battlefield recreations, but if someone uses it in any other context, I’m likely to form conclusions about their mentality. As for the Gadsden flag, the Tea Party, as it now stands, is well-represented by a yellow rattlesnake.
on September 18th, 2011 at 9:51 pm
Leslie,
That is precisely why I find it offensive, that a flag of a sovereign foreign country bordering our southwestern states, are being waved in our American streets by those in the racist “La Raza” movement. Whether they are here legally or not, these southwestern states no longer belong to Mexico. It is now U.S. territory.
on September 19th, 2011 at 3:05 am
rroberts said,
…”what does affirmative action implicitly treat europeans americans as? Last class citizens?
According to Benjamin Franklin? Pretty much!
I’ll give you a headstart on what Franklin said of Europeans. He said that Irish and Welsh were ‘whitewashed Africans.’ He went on to say that Irish, Scotts, Germans were too dark skinned. And that French, Spaniards, Welsh, Swiss, Scandinavians, Flemish…didn’t look white.
So, the next time you decide to look at Latinos, Blacks, Native Americans, Muslims…differently, think about it, if your ancestors were here, they’ve probably experienced the same thing as the modern day people of color. During these days, not only were Jews target of hate, but Japanese, German and Italians, Catholics…
These are not my words, but Franklin’s offensive against immigrants. During this time, Europeans Americans were not considered ‘white.’ And to make further on Franklin, he said, “whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech.” In addition, he said, “in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes…”
I hope I have answered your question.
on September 19th, 2011 at 10:03 pm
Of course it’s racist. At the Toyota plant in Kentucky, you can wear a UAW shirt, an Anti UAW shirt, a Fords Rule shirt, Rainbow flag, etc. Don’t even try a Stars n Bars lapel pin. BTW Todd, I’ll take the flat black Chargers, without the towing equipment, in Fast 5 over the General Lee any day
on September 21st, 2011 at 3:58 am
The Confederate flag is a wonderful symbol.
Who really cares if the battle flag was flown in armed rebellion against the United States. The Union Army was responsible for monsterous attrocities perpetrated against Confederate citizens, entire cities were raised to the ground!
The Confederates were fighting for their homes, most of the soldiers did not own slaves. Consequently, it is ridiculous to argue that the average Confederate soldier had a stake in the preservation of slavery. The average soldier simply wanted to repel an invading army so that his home would not be ravaged by the horrors of war. These men were brave, many of them made the their country.
Many nations have civil wars, the display of rebel symbols and honoring of the dead is part of national reconcilation, look at Quebec for example. You don’t see Canadians attempting to eradicate the public display of Quebec’s national flag. Consequently, why should the Confederate flag be deemed offensive?
I realize that there are many blacks in the United States who are offended by the Confederate flag. As a white person, I’m offended by the Pan-African flag, but you don’t see white citizens throughing a fit about its public display. Consequently, you keep your symbols and we’ll keep ours.
on September 21st, 2011 at 4:06 am
I also just wanted to say that many of you who posted negative comments about the Confederate flag need to learn to be more tolerant of people’s symbols and beliefs.
on September 21st, 2011 at 4:57 pm
JS,
Do you understand what tolerance mean? In one breath, you say you are “offended by the Pan-African flag…,” then the next, you say, “…many of you posted negative comments about the Confederate flag need to learn to be more tolerant of people’s symbols and beliefs.”
As a black person, I don’t fly the Pan-African flag. In fact, I’m not much of a flag person at all. On the other hand, why would someone be tolerant of the Confederate flag? Additionally, why would someone be tolerant of this and other symbols that would only bring back painful memories. Now let’s talk tolerance. You say be tolerant, when most people didn’t want a mosque anywhere near the NY site. Most people didn’t want any of the suspects of these countries in prisons or courts on our soil. Now, how would you feel if they put one of those flags up in plain sight? Would you be tolerant?
I’m just asking, because you appear only to want people to be tolerant in your case, but you won’t return the same gesture.
on September 23rd, 2011 at 3:00 pm
If the Confederate flag is a flag of treason then so is the flag of the United States, treason from England. More slaves were brought to this country under the flag of the United States then the Confederate States. The war was not about slavery but about Lincoln forcing the south back into the union, his own words were, “If it meant by freeing no slaves to preserve the union I would do it”. Do any of you know that Lincoln was a slave owner before he was president?
on September 24th, 2011 at 10:58 am
Frank,
Show your sources. Because I’m an historian of the American Civil War, and your claim regarding Lincoln owning slaves is news to me.
Also, I love the way you conveniently edited your quote from the great man. You seem to have forgotten the parts where he says ‘If it meant by freeing all of the slaves to preserve the Union I would do it. If it meant freeing some of the slaves and keeping some of the slaves in bondage, I would do it.’ Nice cherrypicking.
Here’s the thing about the American flag versus the Confederate flag: one nation was successful in its revolution. One nation failed miserably.
Can you recall which is which?
Aron
on September 24th, 2011 at 7:41 pm
we can now add the american flag to this order.because of the hate crimes act that was invoked by black obama.and all those self hating whites who lick the butts of all minorities.the amarican flag stands as a bleak reminder of what this country is now to what the flag ment befor the racist bigotry of the self hating whites in power.this nation is lost and we as a people are no more.
on September 24th, 2011 at 10:37 pm
Gene,
I can see all those years of Socialist schooling did you worlds of good. Nice job sticking up for ‘yor race.’
If people like you are the vanguard of the White Nationalist movement how can you ever hope to accomplish your goals?
Meanwhile, I’ll just sit here laughing.
Ha ha ha!
Aron
on September 25th, 2011 at 10:36 pm
I fly a flag on each of my families tombs for each of my Civil War ancestors and it is a CONFEDERATE FLAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I am PROUD of them! My families were struggling to raise a family and grow some crops. I get sick to death of people thinking and believing that all southern families had slaves!!! Most did not and did not believe in it!!! Most just raised large families to share and work their small farms. Even as recent as two generations ago, my famiy had 12 children. I get sick to death of this salvery crap! Get over it dammit! Do not label me because I am proudly from the SOUTH! EAT DIRT!
Look at our Gov’T…do you think that they are not trying to enslave these days? Welfare checks, food stamps…no different than the plantation. I did not place people there then and NOW!
on September 26th, 2011 at 7:07 pm
Hardhat,
Not once did anyone here insinuate that all southerners owned slaves. They were simply too expensive.
I respect your wishes honor your ancestors, but how about doing it without telling us Northerners to ‘eat dirt.’
It doesn’t make you look that good…
Aron
on September 27th, 2011 at 11:52 am
Aron, I never mentioned the North. I am not trying to “Look Good.” The North also owned slaves. I get ticked because the Confederate Flag is associated with slavery. The south wanted to break away from the north and some of it was about the big differences in morals such as liberalism vs conservatism. It is buried deep in history that has not been taught. After all, we are still called the Bible Belt.
Before the blacks came over there were the white indentured servants (slaves). History ignored.
My point is, if I want to place that flag outside my home or over my Civil War ancestors, I do not want to hear racial slurs. My respect for my people has nothing to do with slavery. I do not see that flag as such.
on September 27th, 2011 at 8:40 pm
Hardhat,
Your choice is very different from that of the state. Personal versus governmental.
By their flying the rectangular version of the Confederate Battle Flag, (the real version of the Battle Flag was actually square), Louisiana is stating their support with the cause of secession, not to mention their tacit, if unthinking, support of human chattel slavery.
You place that flag in front of the graves of your ancestors to honor their fight for a defunct national entity. Louisiana flies that flag as an affront to the Republic and national sovereignty.
If they flew flags from various Louisiana regiments that fought during the Civil War, that would be a different story. But this spits in the eye of the United States.
Aron
on September 28th, 2011 at 10:24 pm
Aron,
Are you telling/saying to me that I place that flag over a defunct (meaning bankrupt or ceased to exist) States in the South? The love of our Southern States is still much alive and it still has nothig to do with slavery.
We are really very different to this very day than the North. No disrespect, just different. Food, customs, sports, well you get it.
on September 29th, 2011 at 9:33 am
Hardhat,
I attended the Unversity of Florida. There is no need for you to explain the differences, as I am well aware, having lived in Gainesville for five years.
I am referring to the Confederate States of America as having ceased to exist. You, as a citizen, have every right to fly whichever flag you so choose.
Louisiana, as a state, seems to be taking a rather dangerous position in flying the flag of a defunct (not to mention defeated) nation. As unlikely as it would be, one can imagine a similar case as a Zimbabwean courthouse flying a Rhodesian flag.
I hope you finally see what I’m referring to. I have no qualms with the Confederate flag being flown by private citizens to honor their ancestors. I was even involved with the local branch of the SCV.
But when a state government flies the flag, that implies disloyalty to the United States. And that doesn’t sit well with me. Secession is not a right guaranteed in the Constitution.
I hope this helps.
Aron
on September 29th, 2011 at 8:38 pm
Aron,
You are interesting. I do not like us going back and forth here. I wish we could meet on the streets and have a nice conversation. You said that sucession is not a right guaranteed in the Constitution. You may need to read some more.
“We the delegates of the people of Virginia , duly declare…..Do, in the name and behalf of the people
of Virginia , declare and made known, that the powers granted, under the Constitution, delegated to the Congress to the United States, ot Departments thereof.
Radification papers of some several states did recgonize the right of sucession under some conditions. There were Northern states . New York. States “That the powers of government , My Be Resumed ( taken Back), by the people, whosever it shall become necessary to their happiness:; that every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not, by the said Constitution, delegated to Congress of the United States, or the departments thereof, remains To the people of the several states or their respective State Governments, to whom they have granted the same. James M. Bulman [It is Their Right p. 62.
on September 30th, 2011 at 6:25 pm
Hardhat,
I fully agree with your desire to discuss this in person. Debate in comment boards always leaves a great deal to be desired.
That being said, while the state constitutions may reserve the right to secede, the federal Constitution always trumps the state. And there is no mention of the right to secede anywhere in the US Constitution.
If a state were to secede, the federal government reserves the right to bring that state back into the union, by force if necessary. It is simply a fact.
Hardhat, it is always nice talking to you, and I would be more than happy to continue this discussion as long as you wish :)
Best,
Aron
on September 30th, 2011 at 7:57 pm
Aron,
I had to cut it short last night, but I have much more. I beg to differ with you about the right of secession.
We could go on forever about offending different races with flags and statues. I wonder what our own Native American Indians feel when they pass a statue of Christopher Columbus. What about the British Flag and what it means to the Irish? It is all history. Should we abolish it all? Should we sugar coat history to please some? I know that there are some extreme sensitive areas such as the Nazi flag. Jews/Gays/Gypsies exterminated. The south did not have furnaces to kill slaves. The small farms that did have slaves treated them good. I have viewed old bibles reading history and southern bibles recorded the birth, dates and names of slave babies born on their farms. Why would they do that if they did not care? They could have just recorded them on a log of sales instead of the Bible. I do have a problem with the big plantations and that is where there was a big difference.
Did you know that the Native Americans were captured and attempted to make slaves of them? They refused….No way they could be turned into slaves.
on October 20th, 2011 at 4:55 pm
the flag flown by the south is a harritage right.just like the american flag.however,the american flag and the confederate flag were also carried by the white supremiss groups.so should the american flag be outlawed for the same reason?
on May 16th, 2013 at 7:11 pm
aron,it’s people like you who make socialism a bitter pill for as you say,people like me to take.how is it,aron,that when people as you say,like me stick up for my race people like you pull the naacp race card to defend what?are you saying to everyone on this thread that if you are white then you are not right?or do you believe in white extinction?it seems to me that you only care for other races and not in equal across the board.so aron,if you believe that the white person do’snt have the right to speak up or have a place in this country,why bother typing a lectures response to white people?