I’m beginning to wonder if Pamela Geller is actually mentally disturbed or is just desperate to demonize anyone who opposes her.

Like I said, it’s probably best for us to just agree to disagree. Not that I am trying to assign historic guilt to Japanese, Germans, Jews or any other people. Long memories and grudges over past “wrongs” tend to not be useful at all is what I believe.

Regards, JeffB

Bottom line- blaming Jews for the Bolshevik revolution is ahistorical, and plainly ridiculous, much like MacDonald’s historical research.

Having said that, there are very few serious intellectuals today who claim that the entire German people are responsible for the Holocaust. So you’re basically complaining about nothing.

Many years ago my father took my brother and me to a town hall meeting. My dad spent 12 hours a day welding submarines in Groton, Connecticut. We are Jews and had gone to Connecticut to work on the submarines. During a headed discussion as to whether or not a sidewalk should be poured in order that school kids like us would not have to walk on the shoulder of the road. Several kids had been hit that year.
Some jackass turned around and called my father a “goddamned New York Jew Commie.” That was the only time I ever saw my dad HIT someone with the intention of doing bodily harm. The borough’s constable saw what was about to happen and just turned away. When the idiot started screaming that he had been hit, the constable said that he hadn’t seen anything and none of the people in the meeting would back him up.
Two days later, he tried to run me over with his car. No Jew bastards were going to play with his kids. He was arrested and convicted on attempted murder with a vehicle and was sent away for 15 years.
THAT is what people need to do when they hear other people maligned. The SPLC is one of the ONLY organizations I support financially (when I can) because they cause JUSTICE to prevail. I am proud to be affiliated with that courageous group of people. “mr white,” take a chill pill.

Your analogy with the Holocaust is a complete and utter failure for a few reasons. First of all, few respected scholars today insist on blaming the entire German nation for the Holocaust, and virtually none blame all Europeans. As a side note, I refuse to use your contrived and arbitrary “Christian Heritage European peoples” simply because Europeans do not identify themselves as such. The analogy also fails because in the case of Nazi Germany, we are not speaking about a movement or state wherein at some times, Germans were “over-represented”. We are speaking of Germany, a popular movement in Germany, and the German state, at one time. Trying to compare this with Jews in the USSR is as ridiculous as blaming say, Georgians for the murder of all those “Europeans”(I notice you don’t seem to give a damn about all the non-Europeans allegedly killed by Communism).

The idea that the Holocaust is routinely blamed on Europeans as a whole is a fantasy that exists only in the paranoid minds of MacDonald and his ilk.

Also, perhaps you can explain how you came to the conclusion that it is only “OK” to demonize white people? You might also consider that “white” people had the run of the world for the last two centuries. Prior to that, much of the world might have been grumbling about the Mongols, and before that, Romans, Greeks, or Persians.

Thank you for sending me the link to “Scholarship as an Exercise in Rhetorical Strategy: A Case Study of Kevin MacDonald’s Research Techniques” by David Liebernan, which I read with interest. Lieberman looks at how Kevin MacDonald used information in The Generation: The Rise and Fall of the Jewish Communists of Poland by Jaff Schatz in his work, The Culture of Critique.

Lieberman argues that MacDonald does not use the content of Schatz’s work in an objective, scholarly way. He gives such examples as that MacDonald when remarking on the high percentage of Communists among the Polish Jews does not take into account that the great percentage of Jews emigrated from Poland after the Communist Party came to power and thus those remaining were much more likely to be Communists.

Where MacDonald makes the point that, while the Catholic Church was suppressed by the Communists, collective Jewish life flourished and Jewish cultural and social welfare organizations were permitted and encouraged, along with Jewish economic cooperatives, Lieberman points out that MacDonald did not report that the Communist government encouraged Polish Jews to emigrate and also disputes the claim that Jewish life was really “flourishing”. Though Lieberman does make some points, he does not pretend this article is a scholarly work itself or that he is not promoting his own views on MacDonald’s writings and perspectives. You can’t legitimately claim that Lieberman’s article destroys the validity of MacDonalds work.

You make the point that it is false to blame on Jews the debacle of the Bolshevik Revolution and the vast violence and tens of millions of murders it perpetrated. Fine, I agree. But Norman Finkelstein makes the argument that some Jews seem to claim that all Germans (and by some extension, all Christian heritage Europeans) share profound guilt for what happened to the Jews under the Hitler regime, and yet want to deny Jews share any guilt whatever for the murder of millions of Europeans under Communism. I believe that neither Germans nor Jews should be collectively condemned for these historical tragedies.

Hi Skinnyminny,

You raise various points, which would take me pages to fully reply to. I’ll just say that yes, you can find historic instances of Christian heritage European ethnic people acting badly towards other ethnic groups. Isn’t this just as bad as dredging up every bad thing Amerindians, or Arabs, or Muslims, or Africans have done as a way of trying to demonize them? Why is it only OK to demonize White people? Anyway, thank you for your comments.

After 78 days, a war becomes illegal without congressional approval (War Powers Act). It still isn’t false that Obama violated the War Powers Act and did not get congressional approval for the war in Libya, despite the fact that other American imperialist actions around the world didn’t either. It is the same thing Clinton did to Yugoslavia and the same bullying this country has engaged in the world over.

But, back to what I was saying before, it saddens me that what is being given a bigger platform is not right. I am angry that hate speech is given such a big platform, including the history revisionists, who are denying the holocaust. Information is being recycled and sold to people – i.e., Obama didn’t get congressional approval for Libya, well, didn’t Clinton bypass congress and instead get UN approval for Haiti in 1994, saying to ‘spread democracy,’ but, isn’t that what was said for Iraq – spread democracy! Did Reagan get congressional approval for Grenada in 1983, or, let’s say Libya? Or, how about Bush for Panama in 1989 or the Gulf War 1990? Then when you look back at Vietnam, it was allegedly said ‘we had to fight to keep our freedoms,’ well isn’t that the same thing said for Iraq?

You’re older than me, I’m not even old enough to get anything from AARP yet – not saying this is a bad thing, but can you name a period when we are not in other countries? In addition, most of the time we, or at least most of us, are looked down upon by people who visit this country, or move to this country, and ridiculed about how we’re the super power, the most rich…but most dumb – I know this, because I’ve met some Africans (black) that openly say, “you have so many opportunities in this country and don’t take advantage of it, you have the best education…” I’ve also met some people from India and Pakistan that ridicule us about lack of Math. But most of all, immigrants come to this country and openly has disrespect towards the blacks and latinos in this country – almost as if they have been pitted against us before they got here, yeah, some will use the excuse that we are too Americanized, or that we don’t speak any of their native tongues.

Me, I’ve met people from a wide variety of countries. In Califas, this is where people go (besides NY…) and most of all, this is where most first live or open their businesses because it is cheaper where the minorities live.

People keep thinking that African nations with black citizens are just violent and have just been fighting, same as ME countries – yes, most of the people are very vocal about not wanting any western people in their countries, the news will have people thinking they are just hateful (shame on the news) towards the Western peoples. One thing the media have right, they say ‘they hate us for our freedoms.’ They are right in a sense, that corporations go into these countries and run havoc – much like, what is happening in Peru and Brazil right now. When you look at what is happening in El Salvador, Colombia, India…with our corporations, and the people don’t benefit, I think you have to ask yourself. But, please do, I really think you should see the ‘human rights abuses,’ i.e. The Keno Study in Nigeria, kids were used for drug study, children died, suffered blindess, paralysis, brain damage…it’s coming out now the Syphyllis experiment in Guatemala…the Roma is experiencing forced/secret sterilizations – much like what happened in Puerto Rico. So, before you out and call me a racist, call it what you want – either way, as I said a while back, when it comes to important or certain issues everybody can be or appear to be racist. I will tell you though, I am angry and saddened that this country is taking a turn backwards – promises that weren’t kept, and spreading of lies about minorities. And please, don’t say that anyone can make it in this country – some people have been in this country, like, forever, and work just as hard as anyone else, sometimes working 2-3 jobs and never become rich. It seems, the old saying, ‘working is for suckers,’ just may be true – seems you almost always have to do something wrong to make it rich. And, depending on who you are, it will determine what happens from, i.e. wall street.

Wow, when you demonize other people, people get UPSET and criticize you? I’m betting that if I blame many of “Western Civilization’s” problems on say, Croats, I’m probably going to get a lot of attacks from the Croatian community.

“As far as your comments about the accuracy and level of his scholarship, the simple fact is that if the subject of his research had been oppression of Blacks and Hispanics by White people, there would have been little or no controversy.”

Sorry but your hypothetical “would have” doesn’t fly here. Afrocentrism, for example, was easily discredited by the academic community. And even if your claim was true, it would only be a ‘tu quoque’ argument.

The fact is that MacDonald cherry-picks, he uses unreliable sources, he deliberately edits so as to distort things, and he foists upon his audience several MAJOR logical fallacies.

He also seems to understand little about US immigration law, particularly the law of 1924 in comparison to 1965. MacDonald’s basic premise is “Jews wanted this”, so that’s supposed to be the reason it passed. He also forgets that the law it superseded banned a great deal of European immigration, and the main reason why this did not rise after the change in 1965 is that a large part of Europe could not emigrate(behind the Iron Curtain), and others had little reason to, as opposed to in the late 19th and early 20th century.

MacDonald also wants to have his cake and eat it too. For example, he is fond of pointing out real and alleged “overrepresentation” of Jews among Communists, for example in the USSR. Apparently he was unaware that the Bolsheviks had the lowest number of Jews(out of the revolutionary parties) in 1917. He also fails to account for several facts. First, why does he assume that Jews support the Communists for Jewish ends, while other nationalities seem to be true believers? Jews were also not the most overrepresented ethnicity in the Soviet leadership; that honor goes to the Latvians. So we must ask, why isn’t he writing a book on Latvian conspiracies against Western Christiandom? Lastly, even ethnic Russians were overrepresented in the Bolshevik leadership. Why does MacDonald expect all the nationalities of the former Russian empire to be proportionately represented when entire nationalities lived in nomadic(Kyrgyz, Kazakhs) or in many cases isolated and medieval conditions(North Caucasians)? In short, Kevin MacDonald doesn’t know Soviet history.

Next, MacDonald is fond of finding Jews any way he can. If a Jew is in charge, say leading a country(like Rakosi or Bela Kun), that’s evidence of Jewish power. But when the leaders aren’t Jewish, e.g. Stalin, Gottwald, Dmitrov, etc., he can claim that they put a “gentile face” on things. MacDonald’s writings make it painfully clear that he has absolutely no idea how socialist governments were chosen and how they operated.

He also pulls the same thing by claiming that Jews try to conceal the “reality of race”, yet many of the so-called “academic racists” are of Jewish heritage, including the Bell Curve authors.

” As far as your accusation that he “deliberately distorts and overstates the influence of Jews” in Europe and the US, I have never seen an in-depth analysis that documents this. ”

You haven’t seen one? Have you even looked?

“If you can point me to such a study that shows the “outright lies in his claims” (your words) or inaccuracies in his methods and conclusions, I would appreciate it. I’ve looked but never found one.”

You need to look harder it seems: http://www.h-net.org/~antis/pa.....tz_01.html

“By Christian European ethnic people, I meant those with Christian heritage, as opposed to those with Jewish or Muslim historic ancestry. Such people may indeed today be Buddhists, Muslim, atheists etc. The Christian heritage European ethnic people do exist. What would YOU call such people?”

The question is why I should even group those people together. Yes they have a somewhat common faith but you are talking about many radically different cultures. If I approach some Russian and start talking about how we are brothers due to our “Christian European heritage”, he would probably see me as insane. Many other Europeans would as well. Of course I’m sure Dr. MacDonald will simply chalk that up to Jews.

Yes, Kevin MacDonald still teaches, because he has tenure, but his stand has had a high cost. He has had activists show up in his courses and disrupt classes, he has had people try to physically intimidate him, he has been treated as a pariah by some of his colleagues, he is an outcast in his department etc. Believe me, he has paid a price for breaking the taboo of a gentile writing about Jewish influence on Western Civilization.

As far as your comments about the accuracy and level of his scholarship, the simple fact is that if the subject of his research had been oppression of Blacks and Hispanics by White people, there would have been little or no controversy. As far as your accusation that he “deliberately distorts and overstates the influence of Jews” in Europe and the US, I have never seen an in-depth analysis that documents this. If you can point me to such a study that shows the “outright lies in his claims” (your words) or inaccuracies in his methods and conclusions, I would appreciate it. I’ve looked but never found one.

By Christian European ethnic people, I meant those with Christian heritage, as opposed to those with Jewish or Muslim historic ancestry. Such people may indeed today be Buddhists, Muslim, atheists etc. The Christian heritage European ethnic people do exist. What would YOU call such people?

Hi ADM,

In my original post I clearly called FALLACIOUS (and used that exact word) the argument that because Communists supported the Civil Rights Movement that this in some way invalidates it. How in the world can you claim that I said the opposite? As far as my pride in being Jewish, my point was simply that people should love and appreciate whatever ethnic group they were born into. You can take pride in, say, the country of your birth, even though you had no choice in picking it. I don’t see a problem with this. Nor do I see such pride as in any way belittling other people’s ethnic origin.

Hi Skinnyminny,

I was born in Philadelphia 65 years ago and grew up in Camden, New Jersey, a most wonderful place in the 1940′s and ‘50s. If I had to pick my favorite ethnic group, it would probably be Bengali Hindu (which my wife is, by the way). I love and appreciate India, its culture and religious heritage, but that is another story. I don’t at all feel that the American or European civilization is superior or inferior to others. Every culture has its gifts and drawbacks. I’m not at all a chauvinist about America or Europe.

No, it’s just the truth. There is no ethnic group called “Christian European”. Rather, it is classification of people by a religion (Christianity) and a continent (Europe).

Religion does not determine ethnicity. Unlike religion, membership in ethnic group cannot be changed after birth. If there was an ethnic group comprising Christian Europeans (and their descendants), then for one of them to convert to a religion besides Christianity would exclude them from the group. This is not possible with a real ethnicity.

Ethnic groups are formed by common genetics, and there are several of them in Europe (such as Welsh, French, Norwegian, Slovak, Chechen). The Christians living on that continent and their descendants do not form a single ethnic group. The difference between that and the Palestinians is that the Palestinians are a unified ethnic group (rather than the hodgepodge of European peoples with Christians as ancestors), and if a Palestinian decides to no longer be Muslim or Christian, it does not make her/him any less Palestinian. Not so with Christian Europe.

I did have two other comments that didn’t post. I’m not complaining about this, but, just so you’ll know (you are my ally) there are some things I said that didn’t get posted – guess it didn’t pass the muster from the computer program that moderates the comments.

Me, I prefer open markets, and smaller businesses. I prefer dealing with the owners or close confident/family member of the owner. I prefer to shop at farmer’s market type that are out in open. Please don’t get me wrong on trying to explain myself – I know more than you think I know, it’s just the trying to explain to people who really believe that people in other countries live in straw and mud huts – well, let’s use the phrase, “we’re the best in the world,” type mentality. But again, that’s our ‘news’ that never show the best of most minority groups, yet, always seem to show the bad or worse – for instance, the news never really show the upper class neighborhoods, but, will show the poor neighborhoods as if the entire country live like what they’ve shown.

“It’s promoting good things in the world,” she said. “The most important thing is to involve the children in the good things.”

This sounds a lot more like Bonhoeffer than Hitler to me.

Trust me skinny, Turkey has wonderful shopping AND it’s vibrant.

Don’t try to say that I am blaming whites for all of the problems experienced by these folks. It is the truth! These peoples have their own culture, language…but, whites go into these countries and try to change their religion, culture, language…meaning, they always find some kind of fault with the people and their countries, even to the point of calling them ‘stone-age…’ it is the whites that go in and try to control their elections. It is the whites that go in and offer them loans/grants, i.e., imf…knowing these countries can’t really foresee paying these loans back, and it places an even bigger burden on a already stressed/poor country. It is the whites that go in and contaminate the water systems – read about the latest oil spill in an African country that is alleged to take at least 30 years to clean up.

Let’s look at Turkey, for instance, they may not have the type of shopping that Western countries have, but, they are still vibrant. Look at most Middle Eastern countries, and India, milk is fresh, cheese is fresh…you go directly to the person that has the animals and get your goods, pay for your goods (without having to pay for all the expensive packaging here, and the prettying up of the products, and the preservatives, pesticides that mark of the price). They have very experienced rug makers, carpenters…but, someone always go in to tell them they are not good enough.

Call it what you want, but, I find it a double standard when people have their own way of life, in their own country, and Europeans come in to tell them that way of life is wrong, and are made to be a image of what Europeans want, even though they will never fully be accepted, even in their own countries – this is what I call lost history.

Yes, I’m a real dummy. I never stated or nor do I believe what you say I said so I don’t know how to respond to your post. Did you actually read what I wrote? Yes, it is true that Kevin MacDonald has documented some unflattering things about Jews. I am proud and pleased to be Jewish, as I believe everyone should feel about their birth ethnic heritage. Unflattering things could accurately be said about any racial/ethnic people. To the extent people say negative things about Jews that are untrue, I ignore them. To the extent there is actually some truth in what they say, I see it as an opportunity to consider how we can improve.” – JeffB

Yes, I read your comment, and I stand by what I typed. You think the civil rights movement, a movement to give blacks civil and human rights, was or is wrong or invalid because some communists allegedly gave their support. I fully understood the comment and it reinforced my conclusion earlier. As for your other sentence, how can someone have pride in something they had no control over? You had no say in when you were born, where you were born, who your parents were going to be, and what you would look like. It all happened by chance. I’m not saying you should love yourself. Loving yourself is natural. I love me, and no one loves me more than I do. But love and pride are two different things. Pride is for actual, individual accomplishments like getting a college degree. What you look like, who your parents are, when you were born, and where you were born are not accomplishments.

“Kevin MacDonald raises the taboo subject of Jews (of which I’m one) and their influence on Christian European ethnic societies, and he does this at great cost to himself.”

First of all, Kevin MacDonald still teaches so clearly it hasn’t costed him much. Second, Kevin MacDonald deliberately distorts and overstates the influence of Jews in Christian European ethnic societies(which of course, are ALL the same, right?).

” Just claiming that his level of scholarship is not high (and I don’t agree with that), doesn’t mean the issues he raises don’t deserve a response.”

Sorry but it’s a little deeper than that. He outright lies in his claims, and accepting many of his claims means we must buy into a world based on his assumptions.

“In my opinion, your assertion that the “Christian European ethnic people” is “not a real ethnic group” is a bigoted statement that reflects a hateful agenda, and a claim I doubt you would make against any other people.”

Please provide proof of the existence of an ethnic group known as “Christian European people.” Does that exclude non-European “white” people who are Christians? What about European atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.?

” It reminds me of the claim that many Jews seem to be making now about the Palestinians – that they don’t exist and are really Jordanians (with the implication they should leave their homeland of Palestine).”

Palestinians do exist, whether they are Muslim or Christian. “Christian European people” is just an arbitrary group thought up by an American.

You seem to be suggesting that the problems and challenges of Blacks, Latinos, gays, Muslims etc. are all caused by White people – I just don’t buy that or believe that blaming Whites for all the problems of other races/ethnic groups is accurate or useful. Or that Whites are worse than everyone else.

You ask about whether it is right for Whites to want to separate themselves from other groups but I don’t believe they are any different in that regard than Blacks, Jews, Hispanics etc. But tell me, what countries of other races/ethnic groups have been as accepting of other races/ethnic groups as the Christian European ethnic countries have been?

Hi Ruslan Amirkhov,

Kevin MacDonald raises the taboo subject of Jews (of which I’m one) and their influence on Christian European ethnic societies, and he does this at great cost to himself. Just claiming that his level of scholarship is not high (and I don’t agree with that), doesn’t mean the issues he raises don’t deserve a response.

In my opinion, your assertion that the “Christian European ethnic people” is “not a real ethnic group” is a bigoted statement that reflects a hateful agenda, and a claim I doubt you would make against any other people. It reminds me of the claim that many Jews seem to be making now about the Palestinians – that they don’t exist and are really Jordanians (with the implication they should leave their homeland of Palestine).

Hi A.D.M.,

Yes, I’m a real dummy. I never stated or nor do I believe what you say I said so I don’t know how to respond to your post. Did you actually read what I wrote? Yes, it is true that Kevin MacDonald has documented some unflattering things about Jews. I am proud and pleased to be Jewish, as I believe everyone should feel about their birth ethnic heritage. Unflattering things could accurately be said about any racial/ethnic people. To the extent people say negative things about Jews that are untrue, I ignore them. To the extent there is actually some truth in what they say, I see it as an opportunity to consider how we can improve.

“The birth of the modern PC movement hitched a ride on civil rights.”

Please present evidence that there is something called the “PC movement”. I want names of organizations and such. Also, you are an advocate of political correctness yourself, you just have different things you are over-sensitive about. Admit it.

“To criticize the left – or communists was to criticize civil rights and thus, makes the critic a bigot. ”

Well that was sure mean of the leftists to monopolize the civil rights movement. Where are all those conservative champions of civil rights anyway?

“whereby people refuse to believe their own eyes in favor of the false assertions of the crowd around them.”

Cite examples please.

Also, are you aware that the term “useful idiots” does not appear in any of Lenin’s speeches or collected works, and comes from a fabricated quote meant to tie liberals to Communists? In fact the very concept is stupid. Lenin supposedly blows the whole plan, and yet the “useful idiots” never find out about it. Typical conspiracy theory.

Thanks for being my intellectual heavy bag, yet again.

PC has been around quite awhile evidenced by the fable, “The Emporer’s New Clothes” whereby people refuse to believe their own eyes in favor of the false assertions of the crowd around them.

I don’t need anyone to point out a communist sympathy from the SPLC. It’s in these blogs and their own rhetoric. It’s self-evident.

The left never considers itself radical and cannot see itself as it really is. They see themselves as moderate advocates of the downtrodden in the struggle against the powers that be. But in the end, if they are successful, the radicals expect to rule their useful idiots as well as those the idiots helped conquer.