What I can’t appreciate, nor do I tolerate, is the participation of moral imbeciles like “Aron” who is nothing but a conceited jerk proclaiming defiantly his putative superiority. A person who has no kindness in his or her heart is not by any long shot an admirable human being.

I suggest you all stop arguing with this idiot back and forth. It’s hardly worth it. Filled with snide contempt for those who disagree with his desire to do as he pleases with animals, he is not arguing in good faith. Let him put whatever poison he wants on this thread but ignore it. He does not deserve consideration.

I

What is your point?

You reference a war between Pakistan and India, yet I do not recall the last time that India dropped a bomb on a school, killing 600 children, as punishment for the acts of terrorists. In fact I do not recall the last time India dropped a bomb on Pakistan at all, or invaded. Yet another example how ahimsa has tempered the unbridled acts of revenge and counter revenge so common to the holy wars of the semitic religions.

Indeed India has shown extreme moderation with regard to Pakistan, unlike the United States, which regularly sends in drone planes to kill innocent families. Part of this moderation is the reaction to the taj bombing. Whether you like it or not this is part of the whole picture…There have been other such terrorist attacks in Mumbai…and ALL are met with the same moderation. So one must include the Taj reaction as one of many examples of the tempering of violence.by ahimsa.

When religion teaches killing of animals…and justifies it by need, then it becomes easy to dehumanize one’s perceived enemies. So too in a genocide such as the holocaust. The Jews were simply classified as subhuman. By semitic religious standards it is legitimate to kill those deemed ‘less than’ human.

Abdul Kalam, the former president of India is a world class scientist, a poet, known for his work helping children of all religions and cultural groups in India, as well as a vegetarian. In his biography he notes that he grew up always associating with hindus, even as a young child…This is not paralleled either in Israel or the USA.

Getting back to the animals….Those who are so desensitized to the suffering they inflict on animals…easily extend their sang-froid to other humans they have dehumanized.

Lawyers regularly defend unsavory individuals, as have a trial and jury system in the united states that entitles everyone to a fair trial.

Is your point that someone charged for a crime, because that person is alleged to have committed a violent act in the name of animal liberation, is not entitled to a fair trial.

You are letting your imagination run wild…In the USA we believe innocent until proven guilty… Millions of mainstream middle class americans support animal rights and and end to the sadism of vivisection. Are you claiming that the woman who intended to kill someone in fur is part of a militia? It is easy to throw terms like militia around as the inspire the fear and dread so cherished by dominion. You have yet to provide evidence of animal rights militia’s. If this one completely misguided individual is your example of a militia, then you are reving up scare tactics without reason.

I also noticed you still haven’t come forward to defend this ‘animal rights attorney’ in Ohio. Are you concerned her threats would mar your hitherto ‘faultless’ paradigm?

Because the ‘Animal Rights Militias’ are out there. People are taking direct action, with the aim of hurting other people. Either condone and defend her or condemn and disown her.

The Taj bombings are not the be-all and end all. From what I recall, there were still massive riots after the bombings.

And considering the number of wars between India and Pakistan, I would say that Ahimsa hasn’t tempered Hindu-Muslim relations one iota.

And before you start blaming Israel for all of its own woes, remind me who declared war on whom at the instant of Israel’s creation as a nation-state?

With regard to the case you noted is your point then that all animal activists are terrorists. If that is your point then I suggest you think carefully about the implications…for it would imply that anyone in any humane movement is responsible for the act of one person, who is not even associated with any organization…

Rather than just drop an inuendo, it would be most helpful if you clarified your point.

It is the jains who practise complete ahimsa…The Jains were not part of the gujarat riots. There has never been a jain holy war. Nor did they disenfranchise 75,000 palestinian families from their home to create an exclusive nation.

Ahimsa has tempered hindu-moslem relations…The past president of India was Abdul Kalam, a vegetarian, a physicist, a poet and a humanitarian…Ali Akbar Khan, also a muslim was one of the most reknown musicians as is Zahir Hussein…

Dont forget the tempered reaction of india to the taj mahal boming, compared to the over the top fury of israel towards minor incidents…

Here’s a link to the story: (http://www.splcenter.org/blog/.....n-a-first/)

You also might describe how the notion of Ahimsa played such a crucial role in the 2002 riots in Gujarat. One thousand deaths does not exactly speak well to your theory…

If you could provide more specific information, perhaps we might be able to comment. As y your statement reads it is difficult to understand which item you are referring to.

The root of the problem are the hateful words which delegate animals to a lower rung of compassion, where they may be violated for human benefit:

”The fear and dread of you shall rest on every animal of the earth, and on every bird of the air, on everything that creeps on the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and just as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.” genesis

This cruel position explains the difference bewteen the treatment of animals by the semitic religions and ahimsa based religions such as Jainism.

Fear and dread are not suitable as a message of compassion.

Please to not paint all with the same brush. *I* am a Christian and also have been a vegetarian for 20+ years.
And I have little truck for tradition.

Recently, I got a direct snail-mail from SPLC with a letter written by Toni Morrison asking for a donation. I love Toni Morrison and think she’s a great writer, but SPLC will never get a cent from me for all the above reasons. I will not support their hypocrisy.

I would remind you that human societies which understand that all life is sacred have less human on human violence.

Sure, living beings have different skills and abilities, but when we learn to respect their lives rather than destroy them for our desires and profit, we create a more hospitable, hopeful environment for humans.

What is so insane about a more peaceful world?

You have formed your own judgements about my statements, but they are not based on the reality of what I said. I did not say I endorsed intimidation, but that I understand why camille was driven to the desparation of violence because in a dominion based culture there is very little legal recourse for helping animals. I joined this discussion so that those following it would have a better understanding of the cruelty of vivisection, slaughter and the exploitation of animals based on alleged human superiority.

You claim camille harrassed some of your friends for doing their job – I would remind you that the excuse of ‘just doing one’s job’ is not a suitable defense for genocide.

Still, the term ‘peta patrol’ implies some sort of a rag tag army. Compassion for animals is a serious issue, not one to be demeaned. Professor Andrew Linsey of Oxford University has founded an Institute to deal with the philosophy, psychology and ethics of animal treatment – the Oxford Centre for Animal Ethics

There are many people who are mainstream and not radicals or extreme activists who understand that animals should not be made to suffer so for human entitlement. They have written in to side with the more compassionate view. they are not in collusion with any organization or with each other.

Due to your participation in a discussion on the SPLC site. i assume you have an interest in justice. As noted, there is less uncontrolled violent rage in human societies aware of ahimsa. The comparison between the Indian reaction to the Taj Mahal hotel bombing and the USA and Israel to terrorism was cited. India did not punish an entire nation or population for the crimes of a few. Though violence has been part of the majority of societies, perhaps it is time to note the benefits to societies that have a more compassionate view. Perhaps it is time to consider a less violent level of existence that honors the value of all lives.

I appreciate that you are willing to engage in a serious discussion.

Though you quote St Francis:

“If you have men who will exclude any of God’s creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men.”

~St. Francis of Assisi

He did not have a full understanding of compassion, as he was not a vegetarian…Compassion for animals will not follow from allowable slaughter of the judeo.christian tradition

I commented on her lack of reasoning because she simply called me an ‘idiot.’ If that is an acceptable behavior in your eyes, then simply come out an say it. But when someone calls ME an idiot, I feel they have lost any and all credibility.

Also, I have presented well-reasoned arguments. I have pointed to evolutionary biology, military history, and simple logic. The fact that your side gives me absolutely no credence? Well, that’s hardly my fault. It is obvious that I’m not going to convince you (not that I was trying to convince you, in any event), an you’re certainly not going to convince me.

Ruth,

After a simple search of your name to just get some general background information (because you are very well-spoken, so I was curious of any intellectual affiliations), I have found a very strong possibility that we live two towns away from each other. What would happen if I published your home address and wrote, ‘Here’s Ruth’s address. I’m not telling you what to do with it, but you can figure it out on your own!’

And then I came to your house and left a frozen steak in your mailbox. With a note saying ‘Only Commie Pinkos don’t eat meat!’ (Mind you, this is entirely hypothetical. I would never do something like that).

Would you be ok with that? Because I’m pretty certain that falls within the legal definition of harassment. Regardless of motive.

What I’m trying to say is that there is a difference between rational debate, and simple harassment. Camille Marino harassed professors and acquaintances of mine at the University of Florida who were simply doing their jobs and studying. Nothing more.

(Oh, and I referred to you and your friends as the PETA Patrol because PETA is the most visible pro-vegan organization, and Marino’s supporters seem to have come out of the woodwork in her defense. Look at the number of comments on this issue compared to other topics. Now look at how many new commenters have sprung up on this topic. You are obviously here to support Ms Marino, and you have no interest in the rest of the blog. But please don’t take offense by my pointing out that likelihood.)

“If you have men who will exclude any of God’s creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men.”

~St. Francis of Assisi

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
~~ Mahatma Gandhi

Peace, Salaam, Shalom, Juli

“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons.
They were not made for humans any more than
black people were made for whites or women for men.”

~ Alice Walker ~

Some people seem to understand empathy naturally and dont need much re-enforcement. One would hope that at the very least, religion would teach compassion for all who live. Sadly, not all do… When they allow for animal exploitation to benefit man, the result is the proliferation of violence to animals that is an epidemic of cruelty.

You are one of those born with a great deal of empathy and compassion. I appreciate and agree with all you have said about camille. I hope she gets the best possible defense and is released soon to continue her valuable work.

Why do you find it necessary to demean an animal organization and those who support it with sound bytes such as ‘peta patrol’. They are just trying to end the sadism of vivisection and the brutality of slaughter directed at defenseless, gentle animals.

I am not sure why you think someone is belittling those who eat meat. We are merely trying to present the view that killing sentient beings who have harmed no one is cruel and unusual punishment for not being human.

At one point you seemed to understand why automatically putting man above all animals is a fallacy, as some humans commit horrendous crimes, but a dog who is a friend to man may be subjected to sadistic experiments.

While it is easy to dismiss PETA… by labeling those who care about compassion as the peta patrol you fail to understand that this is not about Peta. It is not even about you or me…it is about ending cruelty to the victims, who have suffered for so long, especially so since it was codified 5000 years ago as dominion.
.

In your long debate with Ruth 90% of your records are full with sarcastic expressions without ANY -at least – sign of a logical argument and you accuse Emily that she lacks argumentation!!!!?????

You must be joking man!

Anyway, you can just continue posting smart comments in an effort to “save your face”. I personaly understand that…

You’ve produced a very well-reasoned argument right there.

It’s nice to see the PETA Patrol has appeared to pat themselves on the back for being just so damned COMPASSIONATE. We meat-eaters could never know what true love and compassion are. You can only find that through a steady diet of vegetables

Right.