The Hatewatch blog is managed by the staff of the Intelligence Project of the Southern Poverty Law Center, an Alabama-based civil rights organization.

New SPLC Report: ‘Patriot’ Movement Explodes

By Mark Potok on March 8, 2012 - 7:28 am, Posted in Hate Groups, Intelligence Report, Patriot Groups, Year-End

The number of antigovernment “Patriot” groups grew at an astounding pace last year, as it has in all three years of the Obama presidency, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s (SPLC) annual count of extremist groups, released today. The number of these groups rose from 824 in 2010 to 1,274 last year.

This dramatic expansion of the radical right was driven by fears related to economic dislocation, the country’s changing racial makeup, and the prospect of four more years under our first black president. The campaign season, with its vitriolic rhetoric, has also contributed to the overheated atmosphere that is fostering these groups. In addition, many politicians and other public figures increasingly have been pushing conspiracy theories and demonizing rhetoric into the political mainstream.

The report on SPLC’s annual count and review of the last year in American extremism may be found here. The table of contents for the entire new issue of the SPLC’s Intelligence Report is here. What follows are synopses of the major stories found in the new edition.

  • Last year, little noticed by the mass media, a Massachusetts man burned himself to death to protest treatment of men by family courts. The death opened a window into a dark world, sometimes called the “manosphere,” of woman-hating “men’s rights” activists.
  • The National Association for Research Therapy of Homosexuality, which promotes therapies that supposedly “cure” gay people, is seen by many as the preeminent source of “junk science” that demonizes homosexuality.
  • The little-known Church at Kaweah in California boasts of a “militant Christian separatist worldview” and is training its congregants for armed combat against the “New World Order.”
  • Four members of a Georgia militia were in their late 60s and 70s, but officials say that didn’t stop them from planning assassinations, bombings and biological attacks.
  • Floridian Camille Marino is the newest star on the radical animal rights scene, and she’s frightening. “If I have my way,” she says, “you’ll be praying to us for mercy.”
  • Breaking a long silence, the son of the neo-Nazi who murdered a guard at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum describes how his father ruined his life. Now, Erik von Brunn is just trying to survive.
  • The United Nation’s Agenda 21 accord is a voluntary global sustainability initiative. But to hear antigovernment hardliners tell it, it’s the leading edge of one-world totalitarianism.
  • Bad press, internecine quarrels and co-optation of their issue by state legislatures have almost halved the number of hard-line anti-immigration groups in America.

The New York Times ran a story this morning reprising the findings of the new SPLC Report. Another, longer story was prepared by MSNBC. CNN also weighed in.

  • Steve

    Robert, if one is discouraged from speaking, due to the possibility of violence, this nation is doomed to be ruled by thugs and we can consider the first amendment dead.
    If some far right maniac then decided to freely express himself with violence, he’d then learn the hard way that I’m extremely proficient at hand to hand combat, courtesy of his tax dollars.
    I’ve had discussions online about firearms with some far right hardliners, you know the type, they’ll denounce you as “liberal, communist, socialist” or some other thing that they actually are unable to define, then make a veiled threat about the use of firearms.
    The shut up when I gave a list of firearms I own, as I fire in competitions, hunt and am retired military. The difference is, the primary use for my firearms is for hunting or precision shooting in competition, their secondary use is to accumulate dust.
    I do consider myself a patriot. One that stands fully behind our constitution, what it was intended in each and every amendment and in the full equality of every US citizen and resident of this nation, its territories and possessions.
    However, some of those far right folks need to be reminded, every enumerated and unenumerated right have limitations. As an example, one cannot conduct a human sacrifice, one cannot stone another person for a religious transgression, one cannot commit sedition or speak words that would cause imminent lawless action, such as a riot. All limitations on the very first amendment.
    One cannot possess a machinegun, short barreled rifle or shotgun, silencer, disguised weapon or destructive weapon without an invasive background check and purchasing a tax stamp for said weapon. A limit upon the second amendment.
    The list can go on and on, right by right, where rights are limited in order to protect our society and nation.

    Some years ago, I had service members coming to me before they departed on patrol. They were worried over words spoken by a politician at home, words to the effect that if the election then didn’t go their party’s way, if they did not get their way in Congress, they would exercise “second amendment remedies”.
    Those men literally were in fear that their homes and homeland that they were defending would be in flames before they could redeploy home.
    For that, I can never forgive that party.

    Regarding a post, early in the comments about a Marine NCO.
    If he’s stated or actually refused an order of his Commander in Chief, he’s violated his oath of enlistment. Hence, he can and should be dishonorably discharged. If he solicits others to do the same, he is guilty of mutiny, a capital offense. If he makes plans with others to act in a violent manner against his nation and government, he is guilty of sedition, a capital offense. If he takes up arms against his nation and government, he is guilty of mutiny, treason, insurrection and sedition, all capital offenses.
    Civilian penalties are lesser than for the military, as the military is placed in a position of public trust and their environment of their duties is harsh, so discipline is also strict.
    The oath of enlistment is set by 10 U.S.C. § 502.
    “I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

    Note the “obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of officers appointed over me”. There is no negotiation, there is no evaluation of worthiness or evaluation of the orders of any echelon of authority over the service member. The only evaluation permitted is that of a lawful order, such as an order that suggests summary execution of prisoners, which is unlawful.
    Indeed, every service member is trained on what a lawful and unlawful order is and every NCO is more heavily trained in such.
    As such, his actions and activities are not protected at all, an investigation should be initiated on him and his activities and if what was said is true, he should be at a minimum dishonorably discharged, at a maximum from what was said, he should be in prison.
    For, if any of my subordinate NCO’s had tried that nonsense, that is precisely where they’d be.

  • Robert

    Be careful when speaking with members of the Patriot Movement. Any conversation that you have with someone whose views are seen as extreme can also be dangerous. If you try to have a simple debate with someone who has extreme views, there is a big chance that the conversation can turn into a violent physical altercation. Also, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the fact that Obama is black is one of the main reason the Patriot Movement has expanded a great deal. I see that as wrong on all levels, a person’s skin color does not define their leadership skills. The Patriot Movement merely wants to keep the status quo of a “white man” in office. When Obama was first elected in 2008, many whites, not all, suddenly believed that in the blink of an eye that they were now the minority. It’s a very misguided view, unfortunately there’s nothing we can do about it because they have a right to feel that way. All I ask is that they keep their thoughts and feelings to themselves instead of preaching hatred and committing acts of violence that’s supposed to viewed as Patriotism. If you don’t like what I’ve written that’s perfectly ok, I can’t please everyone. I just wanted to add in my two cents.

  • http://www.endisfar.com Steve Morris

    I’d like to make clear that not everyone who calls themselves a ‘patriot’, or the like, believes that violence is the way to achieve political or social change. Members of the Libertarian Party for example must declare that they oppose the initiation of force to bring about political or social change.

    While the initiation of Force is not an option for us, we do strongly agree with Petitioning for a Redress of Grievances under the 1st Amendment.

    The Federal Gov’t has abridged or infringed upon almost every Right stated within the Bill of Rights for various reasons. We all share the same Rights so when they abridge a ‘patriot’s’ rights, they abridge the Rights of ALL Americans.

    I live in the Altanta area and would be willing to speak with the SPLC about Libertarians and the Rights that many Patriots are upset about being infringed upon.

  • concernedcitizen

    @political synic: You stated:

    Political Cynic said,

    on August 16th, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    The current use (and overuse) of the term “hate group” is, at it’s heart, nothing more tham a form of totalitarianism from the left. “Disagree with me and I won’t respond to you-I’ll just label you a hate group, tell everyone not to let you have your say or present your argument and move on”. The ONLY intent behind it is to silence ALL opposition to whatever viewpoint others may have. It’s simply a vicious ad hominem attack that is logically flawed and without merit.

    My response:

    I hope you realize this makes absolutely no sense.

  • concernedcitizen

    There is much that Matthew has stated here that I find humorous. You see we have racists in our small town that believe they should be given rights to any income that is provided by someone white, it’s really quite amazing and the most stupid thing I’ve ever come across in my life. I guess that is their way of avoiding government support. They just figure they will run around telling interracial couples that they are given some sort of God given privilege to incomes provided by white men and women who are married to minority spouses. Yes we have people that stupid in America. It is very disappointing and both an embarrassment and an enigma to intelligent minds.

    Now given the increasing level of stupidity I have been privy too; when Matthew states that the government should not be telling us what to eat and drink I can understand the argument for freedom of choice, and yet I am reminded of the people I have seen here with small children purchasing what would be family meals with nothing more than sugary treats, processed foods, sodas and not one thing that remotely resembled a fresh vegetable.

    So if the government doesn’t tell the clodpolls who call themselves parents and adult figures how to eat and feed children who will?

    Currently we are living in a generation where more parents will outlive their children due to serious health complications. Pick up a good college health textbook and read the numbers and statistics. It’s very alarming.

  • matthew matlock

    Are you people blind and def? Everyday your goverment take away your rights. Tell you what to eat and drink, what shots your kids have to take. They are not your friends because they give you money. Its the goverments falt our unemployment is so high. There the ones printing money, putting your kids into debt. The so called patrot groups you all seem to hate or fear are standing for what makes this country great freedom. Just maybe you should all wake up and, start standing up for your freedom and quit hidding. The goverment is not supposed to take care of you like you the child. Get a job and take care of your self.

  • Reynardine

    Well, Mr. Jaffe! You don’t hate anyone, but you believe all Muslims are evil and for you, killing them is just business! Aren’t you precious! Kitchy kitchy coo!

  • Brenda

    I resent you defining Patriot groups as hate groups. Just because we support traditional marriage, are pro-life and believe the constitution should be the law of the land you paint us as a hate group. I have never seen such irresponsible propaganda in my life. I didn’t vote for Barak Obama but, it wasn’t because he is black. I would vote for Allen West of Ben Carson. They are both black. It grieves me that more black Americans don’t stant up for liberty and freedom.

  • Stephen W. Jaffe

    I have never hated anyone so I can’t really understand what hate is. I didn’t vote for Obama, but its not because he is black. I didn’t vote for Obama because I believe he is a Marxist and possibly a Muslim. I don’t hate Marxists or Muslims. Their views don’t coincide with mine. Marxism has never worked anywhere its been tried. Islam does not tolerate any other religion or non religion. Since the Muslims believe they should kill all non Muslims; I believe I may have to kill Muslims should the need arise. Nothing personal and no hatred. Just business.

  • Douglas

    The word HATE is being used to convey many emotions and actions. Can someone define HATE. Is it emotional. Physical. Mental. Bias. An outward appearance of internal feelings. Tattoos. Thoughts. Associations.
    Or does it just fall to what offends one and equated to hate.

  • concernedcitizen

    I believe that is what is going on here in Wisconsin. We have a bunch of bigots working “junk science” on mixed race couples and no doubt they do it to others as well.

    Where do people get this ignorance from? And why do so many village idiots follow them?

  • Diane Nixon

    Does this mean the Republican party is a “Hate Group”?

  • http://agreyeagle(nonpub) jan heaton

    Children-Children- A great Grandmother says would you rather fight than switch??
    We all know what “opinions are like”-A—^^s.
    Truth is Facts.This is the land of the Great spirit of truth who calls himself–”THE WORD” take it from there! Every known idea-war-hate-love-marriage- gay- theos-anti-argument etc etc. BEGINS WITH ONE WORD.The Words we use must be respected, as the people we are giving them to. Most of us are a mix of many racial factors- we’re called “the melting pot!”
    My Huguenot- Am. “Indian”-Ukranian-Danish-Mulungeon-adopted by English man- DNA is now mixed w/ Okinawa-Irish-Hungarian-German and more- probably to come w/fifth generations.Mulungeons- (little-known) were Tri-Racial-The Census had no “slot” for them so they became “The old man of the mountains”- Possibly Abe was one.I had a mix of “Foster Kids” years ago. To eliminate this anti-human name-calling predjudices- I had them sit down-face to face and DO IT-SAY IT! They all started to laugh after venting their “ignorance”- became family -finally! WE ARE ALL the HUMAN FAMILY-what happens to one happens to us all. There is no room for Hate here! Everyone is a mirror to us-we can only see ourselves in “them”.Debate is good but must be based on facts not insecurity. The first amendment is “The right to critisize the government”-Kings had critics killed/imprisoned for what we have! RESPECT these rights.-
    FREEDOM IS RESPECT-(good luck with your mouth!) a grey eagle

  • Bob

    The United Nation’s Agenda 21 accord is a voluntary global sustainability initiative.

    Voluntary? VOLUNTARY? Harry Reid said our tax system was voluntary too, just try not complying and see what happens when you resist Big Brother!

  • Jose

    Every single victim of every single incidence of gang violence of above-average crime from minority immigration is blood on YOUR hands. SPLC. The tally is being taken. You are 110% accountable.

    Everywhere a Somali gang or Somali sells a child for sex or rapes someone, you are accountable. Everywhere that a Latino gang murders someone, you are accountable.

    The world knows that the blood is on your hands.

  • Political Cynic

    The current use (and overuse) of the term “hate group” is, at it’s heart, nothing more tham a form of totalitarianism from the left. “Disagree with me and I won’t respond to you-I’ll just label you a hate group, tell everyone not to let you have your say or present your argument and move on”. The ONLY intent behind it is to silence ALL opposition to whatever viewpoint others may have. It’s simply a vicious ad hominem attack that is logically flawed and without merit.

  • Doc Hollidaye

    I’ve read a lot of good responses here tonight. And yes I do agree that men are treated very badly in our court system in regard to divorce. It appears that in trying to balance the scales for some particular right we tend to go to far at the expense of others. Women have gotten rights in divorce courts but at a very expensive blow to many men in this country.

    Also there are comments about the extreme right, hate and divide in America. Given the most recent violent attacks across our nation I don’t believe that is a topic for contemplating whether or not it exists. We know it exist, much to the detriment of our countrymen and women.

  • Jackson Jill

    As evidenced by your own categorization of Obama, the Extreme Right only exists because they themselves are paranoid, John Birchers who believe the government is coming for their guns and that science tantamount to religious nonsense.

    The Klan, the Robert Stacy McCain’s and David Koresch’s, the crazy neo-Nazi wackos that use gunsights as art are what’s wrong with your party, dude. If they are not the extreme right, then that can only mean that they are just ‘the right’ and that is scary.

  • Iqe Eggersone

    Wow, you people are paranoid. The “extreme right” exists only in your imagination. We don’t hate Obama because he’s black. We hate him because he is a Marxist with a radical left-wing agenda. Get a clue.

  • Peter Courtenay Stephens

    Mark Potok, I defy you to establish any scientific criteria that Barack Obama is Black. His mother was white and provided 50% of his DNA. So how does that make Obama Black? Unless—— You are using racist descriptions such as the leftist and racist KKK use or the leftist, and of course they are leftist, the American Nazi Party when they say that a drop of Black blood makes a person Black. They use other terms but I don’t.
    C’mon hotshot. Show me how brilliant you are and prove that Barack Obama is anything other than a Biracial, mixed race or Mulatto.

  • Wieslaw Czajkowski

    The SPLC should look at publisher of the book Adolf Hitler Founder of Israel by Hennecke Karde where in hatred is rampant.

  • http://twitter.com/AronL Aron

    Nunya,

    Boo hoo hoo. Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism. Please point out to me the hateful comments on the post.

  • Nunya

    Reading through the comments makes me wonder if the SPLC should be listed as one of the hate groups. How can you complain about others hatred with these comments spewing from your mouths (or keyboards), this is pure hypocrisy.

  • Reynardine

    Ruslan, I read “The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo”, and although it did describe reekingly violent acts against women, it did not do so with approval. Indeed, one of the perpetrators turned up branded.

    Whoever writes- and I do- is faced with a dilemma when writing of extreme cruelty and injustice, especially when it involves sexual violence: does its value in arousing decent people against it outweigh the risk of arousing the not-decent to emulate it? I wrote a scene that might see print; I’d never want it on screen. And I’d point out I have never seen any film version of “Dragon Tattoo”, but scenes that had redeeming social value in print might indeed translate into rape porn if not handled very carefully.

    The initial version of “The Goat’s Horn” (I have not seen the remake) had a graphic rape scene that resulted in the death of the victim. No reasonable person could have found it arousing. It made a very powerful statement about what happens during the military occupation of an unwilling people and the way the occupier and the occupied alike are poisoned by hatred. Rape is a crime of mastery, not sex, and that was utterly clear. Similarly, I thought “Dragon Tattoo” made it clear that this was a crime about abuse of power, and an almost inevitable outcome when power is too assymetrical. It’s unpleasant; it can “turn on” the wrong people, if badly handled; but it needs to be said.

    As for Scandinavia generally, it seems to present a picture of family dysfunction, seasonal affective disorder, and endless bad coffee, but maybe we shouldn’t judge them by their whodunnits.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Sweden has a great law on women trafficking but this doesn’t stop Swedish sex tourism or the publication of popular rape-porn such as The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Hence, we can say it is a misogynistic society.

    What they do in Saudi Arabia or Muslim countries is their business. Their society is heavily influenced by feudal and tribal relations. You also cannot ignore the role of Western imperialism in creating those states.

  • Ian

    Ruslan,

    Norway, Iceland, and Sweden actually have a very progressive laws about prostitution. The prosecute pimps and clients, but not the women. The policy has been praised by anti-trafficking activists and the vast majority of women in these countries.

    You’re missing the big picture. Even if you disagree with said policy, to compare it to Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, or other nations where violence and discrimination against women (including trafficking) is a much, much bigger issue is just inane. Swedish culture is not equal to Saudi Arabian culture or Somali culture.

    Non-whites in Northern Europe and Canada have it much better than minority groups in the Arab world and much of the greater Islamic world. Again, this is not about perfection. It’s about which culture has a greater respect for progress. The fact that some people who happened to be Muslim passed on some good ideas hundreds of years ago does not change this.

  • Reynardine

    If Ian thinks geocentrism was an advance in astronomy, I congratulate him on his counterperspecuity, and invite him to exsartaginate on his hypothesis, so we can all be suitably impressed with his subacuity.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Ian, American society, as well as Canadian and Northern European society is extremely misogynistic. In Europe, buying women for sex is even more socially acceptable than in the US. Racism and nationalism are also common, but you’re white so I’m sure you’ll be just fine with that. As long as you can get married, to hell with everyone else’s rights.

  • Ian

    Aron,

    And what, exactly, is the difference between Islam and an Islamic environment? What made the environment Islamic? Was geocentrism rediscovered in a Catholic environment? Should we credit the Roman Catholic church with that advance in astronomy?

    If one can credit a religion with the discoveries made by it’s adherents (or because of the religion’s “environment”), can one also discredit it with its adherents numerous atrocities? If not, why not?

    Is a religion or culture that says gay people should be executed the equal of a culture in which gay people can marry?

  • Reynardine

    And what percentage of the square root of CXLIV is the square root of XXXVI? Use only Roman numerals in calculating.

  • Reynardine

    Actually, no, I’m not. You’re evading it, Ian.

    I was hoping to inform you you were post # LXIX, but you are only Post # LXVIII. You are welcome to LXXXVI yourself any time, though.

    P. S. What is the square root of XXXVI?

  • http://twitter.com/AronL Aron

    Ian,

    Since you are now playing semantics, it is quite obvious that Reynardine was referring to the Islamic ENVIRONMENT. NOT the religion itself. You don’t have to ask like such a ponce…

  • Ian

    Ruslan,

    “Ok, Herr Riechfuhrer[...]”

    Classy.

    “[Canada and Northern Eurpe] are terribly misogynistic and there is quite a lot of racism and nationalism depending on which specific country you are talking about.”

    I’ve made my share of Canadian jokes, but “terribly misogynistic”? How? Who are you comparing Northern Europe and Canada to?

    I said no culture is perfect and obviously sexism and racism exist everywhere. That said, yes, those cultures are superior to many other cultures (including the United States, in many aspects). Violence is less socially acceptable, poverty rates are lower, health care is considered a human right, gay people can marry in most places, freedom of speech is protected (relatively speaking), the rule of law is firmly in place, etc. That’s why people move there.

    Reynardine,

    “[N]o one professing Christian identity is going to create such a vaccine[...]”

    Granted. Substitute “HIV vaccine” for “cure for all cancers” or “teleportation”. Same question applies.

    “Did any religion, per se, come up with scientific or mathematical theories? No, but some fostered an environment that promoted them[...]”

    How, specifically, did Islam foster such an environment? Please cite chapter and verse of the Quran or the hadiths.

    “By the way, Ian, which part of ‘developed’ don’t you understand?”

    Begging the question, aren’t we?

  • Reynardine

    By the way, Ian, which part of “developed” don’t you understand?

  • Reynardine

    Ian, no one professing Christian identity is going to create such a vaccine exactly because Christian Identity postulates that all sufferers of this disease deserve to die.

    Did any religion, per se, come up with scientific or mathematical theories? No, but some fostered an environment that promoted them, and others punished them with an ugly death. In medieval Europe and the Mediterranean, it’s quite clear which did which. Meanwhile, I suggest you’d have found Northern Europe and Canada still cooler at the time of the Fennoscandian and Laurentide Ice Sheets.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    “Ruslan,

    Northern Europe ain’t perfect, but it seems the best we have so far. Canada is pretty cool.”

    Ok, Herr Riechfuhrer, but both these places you mention are terribly misogynistic and there is quite a lot of racism and nationalism depending on which specific country you are talking about.

  • Ian

    Aron,

    “I’m not saying you should love a religion simply for the accomplishments of its adherents. I’m saying you should RESPECT it.”

    If someone adhering to Christian Identity created an HIV vaccine, would you respect Christian Identity?

    Reynardine,

    “Blowing off their science and their medicine as the accomplishments of an exceptional, non-devout few works only if you admit as much about ourselves.”

    I do not blow off “their science and their medicine”. However, Islam had nothing to do with these discoveries.

    And yes, I also “admit” (strange choice of words) that Christianity does not deserve any credit for the scientific advances of Christians either. I made this opinion plain as day when I stated, “Giving Islam credit for those discoveries and advances is like giving the Roman Catholic Church credit for heliocentrism.” Giving Christianity credit for the theory of gravity makes as much sense as giving Islam credit for algebra; namely, none.

    Also, algebra was invented before Muhammad was born. The name given to it happens to be Arabic. Again, Islam had nothing to do with it.

    Ruslan,

    Northern Europe ain’t perfect, but it seems the best we have so far. Canada is pretty cool.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    “If the culture is misogynistic, homophobic, racist, or anti-science, yes.”

    So which culture do you like then?

  • Reynardine

    Zero has been invented by a number of cultures, including Meso-American ones, and it didn’t reach Europe through any of them. I posted a certain joke about the Romans which was taken down as too risqué; let us just say it it concerned LXIX. The truth is that if it weren’t for the Saracens, we wouldn’t have much, because our own Christhadis were going around diligently destroying every relic of pre-Christian culture that they couldn’t pretend was Christian. At a certain point, it even became unChristian to bathe more than two or three times in your life, because that’s what the Romans did. When, as a result, Christians got sick and Jews and Muslims didn’t, well, damme, those Paynims must have been poisoning God-fearing Christians! The Saracen empire, on the other hand, preserved the works of classical scholars; they also, whether you liked the subject or not, developed algebra, without which this wonderful on-line conversation would not exist. Saracen hospitals were far the superior of ours (when we had any), if only because Saracen doctors knew the importance of light, air, and hygiene. Blowing off their science and their medicine as the accomplishments of an exceptional, non-devout few works only if you admit as much about ourselves. Our devoutly literal- minded don’t just deny global warming; they deny paleontology and evolution as well, and if they had their way, we’d be using outhouses and burning witches for fun.

  • Ian

    Aron,

    “But do you also advocate the elimination of those religions’ cultures?”

    If the culture is misogynistic, homophobic, racist, or anti-science, yes.

    “Now please go away.”

    Was I supposed to do that before or after I answered your question?

  • http://twitter.com/AronL Aron

    Oh, and Ian, I’m not saying you should love a religion simply for the accomplishments of its adherents. I’m saying you should RESPECT it.

    These are two completely different things, and judging by your earlier statements, it would appear that you are unfamiliar with the latter concept.

  • http://twitter.com/AronL Aron

    CM,

    I wasn’t sure if I should have pointed that out or not. In the end, I preferred making Ian look silly ;)

  • CM

    Ian,

    “So we are suppossed to feel better about Islam because the person who told somebody about a discovery by somebody else happened to be Muslim?”

    You’re responding to Aron’s comment, not mine.

  • http://twitter.com/AronL Aron

    Ian,

    So I gather you are against religion. Bully for you. But do you also advocate the elimination of those religions’ cultures? Because I’m a Jew who really doesn’t believe in God. And if you are pushing for the elimination of my culture, you’re a bigger fool than I had initially determined.

    Now please go away.

  • Ian

    CM,

    So we are suppossed to feel better about Islam because the person who told somebody about a discovery by somebody else happened to be Muslim?

    The tenants of Islam had nothing to do with the transfer of the concept of zero from one civilization to another. Europe had contacts with India long before Muhammad was born. If anything, Islamic imperialism got in the way. Those Muslims who did make discoveries and advances during the medieval period were not that devout and were often persecuted by more religious Muslims. Giving Islam credit for those discoveries and advances is like giving the Roman Catholic Church credit for heliocentrism.

    And apparently anyone who points this out is anti-Muslim (or anti-Catholic).

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    “I also mentioned an article by Ron Paul just today – in defense of Ruslan, believe it or not, and his comment on many wars not being approved by Congress since 1945.”

    Yes, Ron Paul isn’t against war, foreign intervention and imperialism, just that which does not get congress’ rubber stamp. I know. And actually the Iraq War was given congressional approval. How did he vote on that?

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Stouch, I pointed out all the things from Ignatiev that you never bothered to read. Moreover, as I stated before, regardless of what he says, your theory only works if we assume Ignatiev represents all Jews and that he is part of some kind of conspiracy.

    As for media and finance, they are controlled by people called capitalists. They are generally stockholders and owners of other assets. They are overwhelmingly white, gentile in the United States.

  • Louis Stouch

    You will hear Ignatiev references very often by White Nationalists………..

    Geez, I just did a Google search.

    NWO conspiracy theorists, huh? The SPLC validates them.

  • http://twitter.com/AronL Aron

    Ian,

    I’m well aware of the fact that zero was invented by a Hindu. I was referring to the fact that Muslims, through cultural exchange, gave the concept to the western world. Ian once again, you are massively over-simplifying an argument.

  • CM

    Ian,

    Once again, you’re ignoring the substance of my comment and launching a barrage of vacuous criticisms against the way I expressed them. If you still want to argue that Faith Freedom isn’t a hate group, go ahead, but carping about semantics and trivia like my use of scare quotes isn’t doing it.