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Anti-Racists Charged in Attack on White Nationalists

By Marilyn Elias on May 21, 2012 - 4:39 pm, Posted in White Nationalism

Five Indiana men were charged today in a violent attack Saturday that injured 10 alleged participants in a meeting to plan white nationalist strategy at a suburban Chicago restaurant.

Anti-Racist Action (ARA), a loosely organized group that fights racism, took credit on its website for the attacks, but it wasn’t immediately clear if the suspects are members. The group does have a Hoosier chapter. ARA spokespeople did not respond to E-mail requests for interviews.

The men were charged with felony mob action, felony aggravated battery and felony criminal damage to property, according to Steven Neubauer, chief of police in Tinley Park, Ill. The alleged attack took place just after noon at the Ashford House Restaurant. The men charged are Jason Sutherlin of Gossport, Ind.; Cody Sutherlin, Dylan Sutherlin and Robert Stuck of Bloomington, Ind.; and John Tucker of Spencer, Ind.

Police also charged two men who were at the meeting that was targeted. Neubauer said the men told police they were members of the European Heritage Association. It’s a white supremacist group that organized the meeting through posts on the Stormfront white nationalist website. The meeting was called the 5th annual White Nationalist Economic Summit and Illinois White Nationalist Meet-and-Greet. The two charged were Steven Eugene Speers of Grand Forks, N.D., arrested on a warrant for child pornography, and Francis John Gilroy Jr. of West Palm Beach, FL, charged with unlawful possession of weapons by a felon.

Police are continuing to investigate the attack, hoping to identify up to 13 others who may have participated and then fled.

About 18 attackers, wearing masks and dressed in black, allegedly threw bats, hammers and chairs after entering the restaurant, according to the Chicago Sun-Times. Ten were injured, with three treated at local hospitals.  Damage to the restaurant totaled $10,000 to $15,000, according to co-owner Mike Winston.

“When they made the reservation to meet here, they claimed to be from an Irish heritage group,” Winston told Hatewatch. “We don’t ask people what political agendas they have, and we don’t know any of these groups.” The pub and restaurant, in a heavily Irish suburb on the south side of Chicago, is family-owned. “Our average patron is 50 to 70 years old. We’ve never had anything like this happen in our 15 years at this location.”

Daryle Lamont Jenkins of the anti-racist One People’s Project (OPP) said plans for the meeting had been mentioned on Stormfront. “But we didn’t know anything about the attack,” Jenkins said. “This came out of nowhere for us.”

Some of the alleged organizers of the Tinley Park meeting, those who posted on Stormfront, were on a membership list of neo-Nazi National Socialist Movement that OPP posted on its website in March. The ARA group may have matched some of the names from the Stormfront planning group with that NSM membership list, Jenkins noted.

The ARA alleged that among meeting organizers were Shawn Kayden and Jeffrey Burns of the NSM and Beckie Williams of the Council of Conservative Citizens. The CCC is a white nationalist hate group formed out of the old White Citizens Councils, which were formed in the 1950s and 1960s to defend school segregation. The CCC’s website has referred to blacks as “a retrograde species of humanity.” The group is also anti-Semitic, anti-gay and anti-immigrant. Burns also has been linked to the American Third Position, a California-based white supremacist group that aims to deport non-white immigrants and return the U.S. to white rule.

The ARA website pledges to fight racist and fascist groups partly “by denying (them) the opportunity to monopolize public spaces and by denying racists and fascists the chance to turn public spaces into spaces that are hostile toward people of color, women, immigrants, queers and trans folks, the disabled and others.” The group pledges to use “innovative, creative and highly effective tactics.”

There was initial speculation that the Tinley Park attacks might be linked to protesters against the NATO summit meeting in Chicago on Sunday and Monday. No links so far have been confirmed between either group and the NATO summit, said police chief Neubauer.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Really I indulged Herbert too much. It was clear that because he assumed I am a Turk, he thought that he could create an analogy between the plight of Uygurs in China(based on a one-sided source), and “whites” in America(and their relationship to Europeans). Then he must have expected me to take a “hypocritical” position on the matter. But as you can see, the analogy fails on so many levels. In fact from time to time I have reminded many Pan-Turkic nationalists, who often happen to be from the Turkish Republic, that they have little in common with the former Soviet Turks they claim to admire. This is easily observable if you spend time in Anatolia and compare the culture to say, Tatarstan.

    Also he may be dismayed to find out that when identifying nationalities in Russia, that is describing someone by appearance, Russians do not use terms like “white”. There is “Slavic” appearance, Central Asian, Asiatic, and Caucasian. “White” is a foreign concept brought by people who copied the skinhead culture from abroad. It’s not native to this society and it never will be. Russians also insist that they are not European, and Europeans seem to agree.

  • Doc Hollidaye

    It appears that these people are starting to turn the tables on the racist by employing some of the same tactics that hate groups and organized hate factions have been using against minorities, gays, and anyone else who they believe don’t fit into the idiot paradigms they have set up.

    Yes it would be nice if we all could be more civil towards one another in America. It’s unfortunate when one group starts employing these methods it appears to me that the start of these methods will lead to the opposing groups dishing it right back at them.

  • punkmar77

    “and look, I am fully aware that were these racist idiots ever to take power they would want to kill me – but these racist idiots can’t even keep themselves from being arrested after being beat up. they are no threat to ever take power or control in this country”

    Oh yeah? Tell that to all of our brothers and sisters suffering from white oppression in the State of Arizona, tell that to the mother of Brisenia Flores…don’t fool yourselves with your liberal pacifist hogwash…these groups are extreme and they are out to murder. If you want to sit idly by and read story after story in Hatewatch and nod your head and say “that’s terrible” but then do nothing about it…that’s entirely your business. But you’re are in no position to judge activists like those in the ARA when you sit and do nothing but complain bitterly on an internet forum, the message was sent loud and clear through this action. Nowhere does it state that innocent bystanders were injured, the losses to the restaurant itself are highly regrettable and they will be held accountable for that through the courts. As for the idea that these things are better left to the police, do you people not read story after story of police collusion, and even active cover-ups by police departments throughout the entire country? I heartily applaud the action against these scumbags, and I say that this was a learning experience, no they didn’t do everything right but maybe next time they will be much better prepared. No pasaran, pasaremos!

  • David Wise

    Okay, first of all, I used to run with a group of SHARP’s, and I got beat up / did the beating up, of/by my share of WN’s, BUT, this ARA went about it completely wrong!

    Heres some tips for you guys…

    1.) Let THEM start it, sit in the booth next to them and joke loudly about all the “white guys that could not keep their women from dating blacks” or some other viewpoint that, while you don’t hold true to them, would get the WN’s foaming at the mouth, if you want you can even study the local laws and plan “accidents” such as spilling a drink or “tripping” and knocking over a motorcycle (remember NO physical harm can come to them, yet), they WILL confront/threaten you, and then, you are well within your rights to defend yourself

    2.) NEVER allow your fight to harm innocents or WN’s that would not be seen as a threat to you in the eyes of the law (again study your local self defense statutes well before your first hunt)

    3.) Keep up the good work!

  • Reynardine

    Ruslan, I believe the last certifiable Romanov was Peterless the Third and that the father of Paul may have been an Orlov (not the horse, although…)

  • Reynardine

    It seems a good many of my matrilineal ancestors may have originated in the Dzungarian Basin. My hair, before it grayed, was rusty and my eyes look greenish in certain lights. The same was true of Chinghis Khan and also, they say, of his first and best-loved wife; the same is true of many Uyghurs to this day. Like isoglosses, genetic markers do not start and stop at national borders. If there is any species more itinerant than human beings, it can only be sea gulls…who tend to hybridize readily. So have we. Even islanders get around; those beautiful Pacific Island chickens got there because early navigators needed roosters for foghorns, and it appears Araucanas are tailless, Easter-egg-laying mutants of the same stock. Anybody talking about being pure anything… I dare him (easier than her, because both lines can be traced) to get an extensive DNA analysis and find out just how “pure” he is.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    That would be my main complaint about this attack. Not only did they attack unassuming bystanders, but they could have predicted such an attack might lead to hurting innocent bystanders who knew nothing about the meeting in question.

  • Mark

    Hey now, let’s be fair hear. They didn’t just beat up Nazis. When they’d beat up the Nazis, the turned to other patrons. When the owner tackled one of them (a completely rational response when a bunch of people come into your restaurant and start beating patrons), 5 of them started beating him. It confirmed a lot of what I had though about ARA and various “anti-fascist” groups: A significant portion of them are sadists who just want to harm people and wrap it in a good cause.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Oh and in case you don’t read that- Nobody here is saying that we’re all “the same.” If I refer to Germans as Germans, it doesn’t mean I’m saying that a Bavarian is 100% the same as a Prussian.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    “No, by the sound of his name, he must be a Tatar or an Uzbek, or one of the other Mongoloids of Central Asia. ”

    Actually moron, Tatars and Uzbeks are Turks, not “Mongoloids”, and that goes for appearance as well, especially if we are talking about Tatars.

    “Please don’t insult the actual white Eastern Europeans, Citizen.”

    First of all, Eastern Europeans were considered “white” only in recent history. The 1924 Immigration Act in the US, for example, nearly cut off immigration from Eastern and Southern Europe. If you’re talking about Eastern Europe outside of the former Soviet Union, you had better watch your mouth before informing Poles, Croats, Serbs, etc. that they are all “white”. The most nationalistic of these groups is far more concerned with being a Pole, Croat, or Serb than “white”, a term which has little meaning outside of the US and the other colonial “offshoots”.

    Second, the Tatars had formed a state in what is now Russia before the Slavic Russians did, a feat the latter could accomplish only via the assistance of the Scandinavians. More importantly, Moscow grew to prominence due to the Golden Horde. Russians don’t like to acknowledge this, but they are too smart to deny it.

    Lastly, when you speak of “insulting” the real white Eastern Europeans, keep in mind that like it or not, Russians and Ukrainians, to name a couple, have Turkic mixtures in their past and a lot of Turkic influence on their language. It is not at all uncommon to find full-fledged Tatars who appear totally European(see Chulpan Akhmatova, who plays in Goodbye Lenin, for an example), while there are many Russians who look more Asiatic in appearance. I really don’t see how this makes one worth more or less than the other. There is little evidence to support that more European Russians have, by virtue of their more European genes, led this country more wisely than others. The Romanovs(who had some Germanic roots), Gorbachev, Yeltsin…They all led Russia to ruin.

    ” But this “Ruslan” does claim to be white =)”

    Indeed, for the simple fact that this is not my name.

    “Soooo…. what about them? With dropping of nuclear bombs on Japan,”

    The dropping of the atomic bomb is a complicated issue which on one hand was unnecessarily brutal, while on the other hand could have very well been due to a translation mistake in regards to surrender negotiations. This does not justify Japan’s aggression and imperialism from 1931 onward.

    “terror bombing of Germany”

    Gee, I guess using terror bombing against Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, Belgrade, Coventry, London, Athens, Leningrad, and Stalingrad was a REAL bad idea considering the Allies’ superior production, was it not?

    They opened the door.

    ” and not to mention the bestial brutality perpetrated against the civilians and POWs of those countries both during and post-war, all the Allies proved in the end that they had _better_weapons_ to commit mass murder with than the Axis.”

    Again, everything that was done to Germany at the end of the war was done BY Germany, often with greater severity, prior to 1944 when the war began to push the Germans back to their borders. Ask the Poles, ask the Ukrainians, ask the Russians, and the Belorussians.

    ” Makes me all the more glad that none of my ancestors or their relatives on either side of my family had taken part in neither of the two intra-European mass slaughters (aka WWI and WWII).”

    You think that these were the only two intra-European mass slaughters? You’ve got a lot of reading to do. Check out the Seven Years War, the Thirty Years War, the Wars of Spanish Succession, to name just a few.

    “Reading your impeccable words of wisdom and logic, it reminds me – you being our resident expert on all things Islamic,Turkic and Mongoloid that you are, would you mind contacting this poor excuse for a journalist Breffni O’Rourke and remind her that Uyghurs are straight-up, 100% Chinese and are most certainly not “an ethnic Turkic people who are by tradition Muslim, and who feel more kinship with the peoples of Central Asia than with the Han Chinese” ?”

    Uh, why? For one thing, the Chinese Muslim identity is very complex. Some are indeed assimilated, and some are quite Turkic and it shows. It should be noted that early Chinese records of the Kyrgyz Turks, for example, describe them as having reddish hair and green eyes. Anthropological study shows that Turkic peoples had a variety of phenotypes including something very “European” looking, and one can find examples of this today.

    In any case, Chinese Muslim should not be treated as synonymous with Uygur or Turk. I honestly don’t know why you even brought this up.

    ” And that nor do they got ANYTHING in common with the Uzbeks, Turkomen or Kazakhs or anyone else from Central Asia, as this article so erroneously suggests.”

    Well first of all, it’s Radio Free Europe, so I don’t know why you’d take any of that seriously. If they are ever right about something, it’s a busted clock scenario. But I would say that claiming they have nothing in common with Uzbeks or particularly Kazakhs(which live on both sides of the border anyway) is a bit extreme.

    One major factor determining cultural differences is whether or not we’re talking about a population which lived in the USSR or not. The USSR and China had different nationalities policies.

    “tell this crazy Chinese woman, Rebiya Kadeer and all the other so-called “Uyghurs”, to stop resisting and complaining about the “Sinicization” of their alleged homeland and embrace being Chinese.”

    The Han have been exporting their culture to other peoples and including them for centuries. The modern Uygur of today may be Turkic, but they are a far cry from the original Uygurs no doubt.

    I think I see where you are going with this, and it’s not going to work. See, Han and Uygur are nationalities, not “races”. Second, to understand Chinese nationality policy one needs to study not only that policy but understand a simple thing about the Chinese language. In China, anyone- Mongol(there are more Mongols there than in Mongolia), Manchu, Uygur, Tatar, etc. can identify themselves as “Zhongguo ren”, or “China person” literally(yeah, that’s where ‘Chinaman’ most likely came from). Zhongguo(Middle Country) means China but is not always synonymous with Han ethnically.

    What you are also not considering is that China has policies which FAVOR national minorities. In addition to forms of self-government at all kinds of level(province, town, village, etc.), China has preferential treatment in higher education for minorities, and minorities are mostly exempt from the one-child policy. China’s policies, for example, led to a boom in the Manchu population. However, this was not so much because Manchus started having lots of children, but because the inclusive politics of China caused more Manchu people to identify themselves as such, including those of mixed Manchu heritage.

    “The whole “race” and “culture” thing is just skin deep. So what if their eyes aren’t as slanted as that of the Han Chinese majority?”

    In your attempt to make a point based on a faulty analogy, you shoot yourself in the foot. First off, as I said, not all Chinese Muslims(known as Hui) are Uygur. Muslims aren’t really supposed to care about race or ethnicity(doesn’t mean this always happens in practice of course).

    What it seems you are trying to do is compare this to the situation of “whites” in the US. Well there are a few problems with this.

    1. The Han are something like 91% of the Chinese population. There is no logical reason to believe that “whites” in America would ever drop to 9% of the American population or less. If it ever got close to that we’d probably have a very different perception of who is “white”, since that definition has changed radically since its appearance in common usage around the late 17th-early 18th century.

    2. White does not translate to Uygur, Kazakh, Uzbek, etc. “White” is a supra-national artificial identifier now used by some to refer to Europeans. So if you complain about whites being assimilated in America by a massive colored horde, I could complain about European minorities such as Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, etc. being assimilated by the larger WASP groups. In fact, many larger groups such as the Irish were practically assimilated this way.

    3. Radio Free Europe is, as it was, still basically a propaganda network which is pro-Europe, pro-US. It has a long history of giving a speaking platform to nationalists and separatists who serve the interests of its patrons. I’m not going to deny that there are still nationality issues in China, but I’m not going to so readily credit the claims of that network because I’m familiar with their nonsense.

    4. Turkic culture, especially that of Central Asia, has a LOT of influence from China which dates back to the first appearance of Turkic peoples in history. The Turkic pre-Islamic traditions were clearly influenced by Confucianism and the idea of the “Mandate of Heaven.” The music of Central Asia and even Tatarstan, far to the north, sounds far closer to traditional Chinese music than that of the Anatolian Turks.

    ” All people are one and the same, and the Turkics too should be getting this memo as they are being demographically displaced.”

    Nobody is claiming people are the same. Again, “whites”, specifically American whites, do not equal Uygurs.

    “As per your amazing logic, the Uyghurs would NOT be Turkic, and they have no kinship with the “-stans” of Central Asia. They _are_ _just_ Chinese.”

    Incorrect. For one thing, Europe and America are an ocean apart, geographically. America’s history, economic life, religions, values, etc. are radically different than those of Europe. In the case of Central Asian Turks living on the border with China, some of these populations straddled the border. Some cultural differences appeared(such as Kazakhs speaking Russian, or Chinese Tatars still using an Arabic based alphabet while all the others started using Cyrillic), but Turkic culture tends to have very similar features depending on the region.

    And again, these are all nationalities, some of them quite contrived as well. Most Central Asian Turkic populations assimilated the previous Persian culture and were mixed in with that population(Tajik).

    So I’m very sorry but even if these claims of RFERL were true, they would not be analogous to what you claim is happening to “whites”, and if it was, I could claim that some “white” groups would try to displace others, since there is a long history of this both inside of Europe and in the US.

    Sorry for the long post but like the Nazis, you opened the door. I also suppose you tried to bring up this Uygur issue because you think I’m Turkic, that it would strike some chord with me, and then you’d trap me in some kind of hypocrisy. Sorry, but you people are just too predictable.

    Thanks!! =)

  • Judas

    Wow!

    Well at least one regular contributor here (@ Ruslan) had it partially right in one of his many posts where he states “The messed up thing is that from the account, it seems as if their behavior may have injured some of the innocent patrons who had no idea that a WN meeting was going on.” Too bad he had to continue on with unrelated rhetoric after that statement.

    It does not matter that those who were assaulted claimed to be from the White Nationalist racist right, nor does it even matter that their alleged ARA attackers believed themselves to be doing right in their cause of fighting the evil forces of racism.

    What should matter to all of us is that you have one group of individuals who decide to meet in a very open and public setting where the attendance of unsuspecting citizens had to be a given. And you have a second group that decides to commit a violent act upon the first group in the very same open and public setting where the attendance of unsuspecting citizens had to be a given.

    Geez guys…we have one group of individuals here with their basic identities concealed fearing what…future retribution, apprehension, and the possibility of prison time for their acts, who with premeditation and malice decided they need to attack others with weapons in a very public setting. At what point did these idiots think that grandma and grandpa, mom and dad, and possibly children might be eating there and attended to by restaurant staff. That’s just it…they did not because they did not care!

    They did not care if innocent citizens were hurt nor that they caused upwards of $20,000 in damages to a private business as their main concern was to cross state lines to perpetrate a violent act upon a perceived enemy, and then secondly to safely flee the scene before police could arrest and incarcerate them for further prosecution.

    Perhaps the group of misfit WN diners got what they deserved, I do not know nor do I care. But I certainly cannot condone the actions of these alleged ARA members. Nor would I condone such violence by any individual, group, or organization, where innocent citizens could be hurt through such ludicrous actions.

    What the hell were they thinking? I am thinking Guilty as charged!

  • Julia

    I have never been, nor never will be, a violent person but I do have to admit I was downright gleeful when reading this article and imagining it was my fist hitting the racists.

  • Reynardine

    Herbert, you are just being plain nasty. We’ve had people like you here before, but you are targeting one of our commenters on what you presume to be his ethnicity. For my part, unless he indicates differently, I do not assume him to be other than rather more Caucasian than I am.

    With the exception of people like Shadow Wolf, our ancestors came here from elsewhere, and with the exception of those shanghaied here in chains they came here because they chose to. Americans are the sons and daughters of the enculturated. The Uyghurs, on the other hand, were sitting right where they are when China overran them. I get it. You hate “Mooslins”. Now go over to Jihadwatch or Atlas Shrugs or something and disport yourself.

  • Herbert

    Concerned Citizen said,

    ON MAY 22ND, 2012 AT 2:55 PM
    Ruslan

    “By the sound of your name. You must be Russian or Eastern European.”

    No, by the sound of his name, he must be a Tatar or an Uzbek, or one of the other Mongoloids of Central Asia. Please don’t insult the actual white Eastern Europeans, Citizen. But this “Ruslan” does claim to be white =)

    Ruslan Amirkhanov said,

    “Sooooo….What about the Allies then?”

    Soooo…. what about them? With dropping of nuclear bombs on Japan, terror bombing of Germany and not to mention the bestial brutality perpetrated against the civilians and POWs of those countries both during and post-war, all the Allies proved in the end that they had _better_weapons_ to commit mass murder with than the Axis. Makes me all the more glad that none of my ancestors or their relatives on either side of my family had taken part in neither of the two intra-European mass slaughters (aka WWI and WWII).

    “You’re not “European”, you’re not “Irish”, you’re just American. Start learning to get along with the other Americans.”

    Reading your impeccable words of wisdom and logic, it reminds me – you being our resident expert on all things Islamic,Turkic and Mongoloid that you are, would you mind contacting this poor excuse for a journalist Breffni O’Rourke and remind her that Uyghurs are straight-up, 100% Chinese and are most certainly not “an ethnic Turkic people who are by tradition Muslim, and who feel more kinship with the peoples of Central Asia than with the Han Chinese” ? And that nor do they got ANYTHING in common with the Uzbeks, Turkomen or Kazakhs or anyone else from Central Asia, as this article so erroneously suggests.

    http://www.rferl.org/content/C.....72366.html

    And also;

    http://www.rferl.org/content/e.....80040.html

    http://www.rferl.org/content/e.....87905.html

    tell this crazy Chinese woman, Rebiya Kadeer and all the other so-called “Uyghurs”, to stop resisting and complaining about the “Sinicization” of their alleged homeland and embrace being Chinese. The whole “race” and “culture” thing is just skin deep. So what if their eyes aren’t as slanted as that of the Han Chinese majority? All people are one and the same, and the Turkics too should be getting this memo as they are being demographically displaced. As per your amazing logic, the Uyghurs would NOT be Turkic, and they have no kinship with the “-stans” of Central Asia. They _are_ _just_ Chinese.

    Thanks!! =)

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    It could be for speaking Russian. Ironically the people who first started a program to get everyone in Ukraine speaking Ukrainian were the Bolsheviks. It failed for a number of reasons, one being that “Ukrainian” varies widely depending on the region and the Polish influence of those regions. Most people speak a mix of “Russian” and “Ukrainian” words, or they speak Russian with a Ukrainian accent.

  • Reynardine

    If I think about it, Ruslan, our Russian dance instructor, a native of Kharkov, was probably targeted for a beating-up by exactly the group you mention (I don’t think they ever caught up with him, as he never showed up either beat-up or bragging)

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Rey, the only Ukrainians who have such attitudes towards Russians are usually Western Ukrainian nationalists, who like to re-write history and romanticize their past.

    I don’t really see a reason to unite on the basis of whiteness, even if we do have shared experiences. Inclusiveness is the key to America’s identity problems.

  • Reynardine

    Neil, what the Hell is “Asian” identity? You realize that’s the largest continent in the world? Even if you separate them out, do you realize how many ethnic groups there are in India, China, Burma, or Pakistan (just to state a few)? How many in the territories of the former Soviet Union? How many ancient peoples are subsumed under the rubric of “Arab”?

    When I was first researching anthropology, as a twelve-year-old squib, many in the field still thought the human species had originated in Asia, because its greatest diversity was found there. The chances are that all modern supraSaharan races, and some ancient ones, did originate there. There is no “Asian identity”, as there is no “white identity”. Certain Americans referred to as “African-Americans” are so called simply because they share the common background of ancestors who were shanghaied from (mostly) the West African coast into the slave trade, and whose origins were rendered untraceable.

    When I am with other people classed as “white”, I feel no particular kinship. At the same time, I have a sharp eye (trained by my early reading) for traits that tell me most “white” people aren’t as “white” as they think they are. That includes myself. You trace all but the most isolated lineages far back enough, and you get a surprise.

    Again and again, I have said that there is nothing wrong with frequenting, or belonging to, a national club. What is being celebrated there is shared language, history, folklore, and cuisine. With the exception of the Ukrainians having a truly bad attitude about Russians, I have never seen this lead to any pissiness towards other groups.

    I hope this clears things up a bit more.

  • Neil

    Ruslan,

    Thanks for the reply. I did appreciate hearing where you’re coming from, though I’m not as anti-capitalist as you are.

    Also, one last thing, you mentioned pride in white identity. I only think people should have a mellow, very benign pride in their identities. Black people, Asians, whites, etc. Stress on benign. And it definitely shouldn’t be something that separates people. In the same way that the Polish husband and his Italian wife can go to the Polish fest and both have a great time–the wife neither feeling left out nor excluded in any real way, people can feel they have a white, black, Asian, etc. identity and also not send exclusivist messages.

    (I do know that some people who post here want to have a very souped-up white identity which is really about excluding others. That I disagree with.)

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Well Neil, if I understood you correctly, on your definition of “white identity”, then even I would have to cop to having a white identity. After all, I am “white” by anyone’s standards in America, and I cannot deny that if I’m there, I receive this white privilege that I didn’t ask for, and I enjoyed it for most of my life and acted accordingly. I realize that as a “white” person, I do share a lot of experiences with other “white” people, but I don’t see any of this as something to take any kind of “pride” in. Rather, I started to learn a hell of a lot more when I first started reading about the perspectives and experiences of non-white Americans, and then the history of Americans who are considered “white” today but weren’t in the past. I realized that this division, and the refusal of whites like me to listen to any other group’s experiences which differed from our own conventional narrative is causing serious problems in America.

    Take the economics crisis for example. White people are panicking. They’re practically crapping their pants with rage, joining the Tea Party(to blame minorities for the crisis) or Occupy(which, contrary to common belief, is not solely made up of leftists, and many white leftists may hold racist beliefs). Now had people like me been LISTENING to minority groups, especially black Americans, we would have known that the capitalist system in America is rotten, and not a meritocracy as we were told in school. One of our shared experiences as white kids, even if we were working class types, is that our capitalist system is a meritocracy that rewards hard work and punishes the lazy. Many of us to this day still believe that the poor must inevitably be responsible for their situation. And when I was younger and poor, I had a myriad of excuses as to why my situation was different(indeed it was situational, not generational poverty).

    So what happens in a crisis like the current one to people who are told all their life that they make their own lot in this society, and that if they work hard and obey the rules, they will succeed,whereas if they fail they have nobody to blame but themselves? Naturally they hit the roof. Someone must be to blame. Someone must do something! This is such a big INJUSTICE!

    Now we have got the embryonic roots of a left in the US, and people are just starting to talk about class again. But imagine if we hadn’t spent so much time believing in this meritocracy crap, and if we had taken the time to hear about the black or Latino experience in America? We would have had a stronger workers movement, one which could have serious political impact today. But no, we don’t have that because in the 60′s we had the Frankfurt School BS factory which spawned all kinds of Utopian and/or identity politics movements which erroneously thought that capitalism needed conformity to survive, ergo anything done so as to avoid “conforming” was inherently subversive(yeah, that worked out well).

    Hell, our radical “left” today is still more about having fun, growing vegetables, and doing street theater than real organizing and fighting. No surprise that you’ll see a lot of white faces too.

    Anyway, that’s my take, again assuming that I understood what you meant by “white identity” properly. Some would call what I say “white guilt”, but “white guilt” is just a trick used by our race-divided society to reign in whites who stray away from the flock. I look at it simply this way- At one time I was part of the problem, so since the time I realized that I want to do what I can to be part of the solution.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    “Both sides have a lot in common. Both the anti-racist and racist sides.”

    Nope.

    ” One side shouts “Smash the fash” and the other shouts “White Power”.”

    Taken by themselves, both statements are very different in terms of morality. History has taught us that fascists, for most of humanity, are not a good thing. “White power”, where “white” was used to justify a minority ruling over a majority at the latter’s expense, was also not a good thing. Plus, “white” people ARE in power anyway.

    “There are prison bait skinheads on one side and heroin junkie hippies on the other side.”

    Care to substantiate the claim about junkies? Hippies typically smoke weed; they don’t use heroin.

    “Of course, how can a group be pro something without being against something? One different thing is that while plenty of “pro-white” groups try not to give off the impression that they advocate violence and try to water their message down for public consumption, the ARA openly advocates violence and goes around bashing skulls and breaking windows..”

    First of all these attacks by the ARA are really rare. Most violence that occurs when the ARA is involved takes place at rallies in the streets which get out of hand. Second, what does it matter if you claim your group doesn’t advocate violence if one’s ideology cannot possibly avoid leading to genocide of some large groups of the population?

    @Jeez: “You people are obsessed. Why is it taboo to celebrate racial heritage if you’re white”

    There is no such thing as “racial heritage”, much less “white heritage.” As plenty others pointed out(BTW thanks guys, it’s good when we can all share the work of explaining the same simple concepts to these WNs over and over again), nobody gets upset when you celebrate St. Patrick’s Day, or have a Polish club, or whatever. That’s because whether we are talking about Serbs, Poles, or even English people, all these ethnic groups have a lot of history and culture that ISN’T rooted in the oppression of people. In other words, the category “white”, and the other racial categories which were dreamed up along with it, was designed specifically to justify treating certain groups as anything from second class citizens to something less-than-human and undeserving of life.

  • Neil

    Ruslan and the white identity thing:

    First, let me say that I don’t buy into having a white identity which means that I consider other white folks to be like an extended family–which would then entail that I treat them better than other people. So my idea of white identity is very different from, say, Matt Parrot’s.

    But I do feel that I have a white identity.

    Is this immoral in your opinion–merely feeling identified with other whites even though you reject any privilege or bias that could go along with it? Or do you think that bias would necessarily follow? (If so, what do you think about atheist Jews having a Jewish identity? Is that necessarily wrong?)

    I do have problems with others who will themselves to treat people who simply happen to be of the same ethnicity or race in any way (however subtle) better than they would treat others.

    But I think people who have the same identity might have a “natural” affinity for each other based on shared experiences. For example, people who graduate in, say, the year 1979 probably have certain things in common which, all other things being equal, might give them more shared experiences than people who graduated in another year (in general, of course). That DOESN’T mean that by force of will they should decide to care more about people in the class of 1979. And it doesn’t mean they should “amp up” the natural affinity they might have–that would be “willing” affinity, which I would consider to be wrong.

    Another example: Women (or men) might have a natural affinity with each other. Women have shared experiences that men don’t have. But, of course, that doesn’t mean that women are biased against their husbands, brothers, fathers, or sons.

    That’s all my white identity means to me. And that’s all (I would hope) people with a black identity or an Asian identity have.

    What I’d like to know is this: Why are you so gung-ho against white identity (as I define it)? Or are you?

    You just seem a little on the sanctimonious side about this matter.

  • Reynardine

    Shadow Wolf, I know there was a Yeruslan Lazarevich in the Kievan Cycle, who seems to have been the prototype for Pushkin’s Ruslan in “Ruslan and Lyudmila”. Most of us have names whose roots could prove exotic. My parents unwittingly gave me a name that properly belonged to a plaster saint with candles at its feet. Of those who write here, you alone appear to have roots that could be called “American”. Nonetheless, we are all in the same boat now. Let us hope it is not the Lusitania.

  • Reynardine

    Having been in a cat-thrashed state, I accidentally transposed the names of the attacked an the attackers, but my sister, who lives in Chicago (and has verified that my aunt wore panties) said that the attackers evidently knew that the group they attacked would be present, and came in and assailed them without further ado. In the process, several patrons were injured and the restaurant was wrecked. No one had ever heard of these guys before, and it’s still not clear how they tracked their victims.

    Night club and bar fights arising from spontaneous hostilities were an old tradition in my native city, one in which, on separate occasions, my father and one aunt (not the black lace one) took part. A deliberate rumble in a family restaurant is different. It’s rather as if Al Capone had shot all those guys in Morton House after church. This really was inexcusable, even if that had been the Minority-Baby-Eating Society meeting there.

  • Shadow Wolf

    “Mr. Amirkhanov stated that he’s an American,”

    I have always wondered why he doesn’t go by “Aslan” anymore. But his posts always seem to make sense.

    @Jeez,
    It is not “taboo” to celebrate your heritage. Why do we have the St. Patrick’s Day, the atrocious Columbus Day, Oktober Fest, or the Renaissance Fest and so on and on? No is obsessed here, it’s simply the fact that you are deluded.

    You are juxtaposing WN ideology with common white heritage holidays like the St. Patrick’s Day and Columbus Day. WN ideology is nothing to celebrate about. It promotes “race war” and religious persecution as well as misogyny.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/GargamelGold?feature=mhee CriticalDragon1177

    @Jeez

    What’s there to celebrate? What’s there to proud of or ashamed of when it comes to one’s race? Race is a meaningless social construct. Talk to just about any anthropologist or geneticist on the subject.

  • Jeez

    You people are obsessed. Why is it taboo to celebrate racial heritage if you’re white? Everyone else seems to do it (and as one poster stated, we’re all Americans) but you all seem to fear cohesion amongst whites as if a fourth reich is the end result.

  • Wayne

    Both sides have a lot in common. Both the anti-racist and racist sides. One side shouts “Smash the fash” and the other shouts “White Power”. There are prison bait skinheads on one side and heroin junkie hippies on the other side. Of course, how can a group be pro something without being against something? One different thing is that while plenty of “pro-white” groups try not to give off the impression that they advocate violence and try to water their message down for public consumption, the ARA openly advocates violence and goes around bashing skulls and breaking windows..

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    The messed up thing is that from the account, it seems as if their behavior may have injured some of the innocent patrons who had no idea that a WN meeting was going on(WNs often reserve rooms in restaurants for their meetings).

    Still, I have to laugh at this:

    “5th annual White Nationalist Economic Summit”

    White Nationalist economics pretty much revolves around: “The Jews did the economic crisis.” Ironically, many WNs are either fans of Austrian economics or Ron Paul supporters, and two of the Austrian schools most influential minds were Ludwig von Mises and Murray Rothbard- both of Jewish descent.

  • Lex

    Breaking the law and commit assaults on racists is not the way to go

  • Shadow Wolf

    Cheers to our comrades in the ARA. Keep up the pressure on our violent racist enemies.

    Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.

  • P

    Sad thing is these anti-racists were probably fuming over George Zimmerman using the “stand your ground” idea to pursue Trayvon Martin, but then in bright day light and with preplanning attacked these people.

    I’ve always detested ARA for taking the same violent vigilante action was white nationalist groups but claiming they are in the right.

  • Reynardine

    I’ve no idea whether this ARA kaffeeklatsch was proceeding quietly, in which case there was no excuse for this, or if they were making loud use of epithets. Language which occasions only a shouting match elsewhere can get you fisticuffs in Chicago. I, a native of that city, should know. I was into it most of my ninth year because a bunch of kids said my aunt wore no panties. It was a damn lie. She did so wear panties. I saw them myself. They were black, and made out of lace.

  • Erika

    and look, I am fully aware that were these racist idiots ever to take power they would want to kill me – but these racist idiots can’t even keep themselves from being arrested after being beat up. they are no threat to ever take power or control in this country.

  • Erika

    Ruslan, there is an obvious difference between legitimate force against the actual historic Nazis and this. Here you are talking about smashing up private property and disrupting what was apparently a peaceful assembly. While the ARA people would never admit it, they were acting like brownshirts here.

  • Reynardine

    Concerned Citizen, I myself have belonged to a Russian Club and a French Club, and have both dined and performed in Lithuanian, Polish, Ukrainian, and Czech clubs. Naturally, people can do that. All the same, you walk into certain foreign toilet facilities, and you’ll know just how American you are.

    African-Americans are so called because all records of their countries of origin have been destroyed. The rest of us use certain identifiers to excuse ourselves for such vices as drinking green beer once a year or getting carried off a few yards by drunken Cossacks after dancing a good hopak. But there is no “European culture” as such; just a good look at either European history or the present European “Union” will tell you that. All of us born or naturalized in the U.S. are Americans. Some of us are “better” by virtue of behaving as better citizens, a matter of forethought, study, and consideration- that is all. Ancestry, plus the proper fare, gets you a ride on the bus; only the latter is indispensible.

    Mr. Amirkhanov has stated he is American, and I see no reason, linguistic or otherwise, to doubt him.

  • http://twitter.com/AronL Aron

    Concerned’s off his meds again!

    Along with not swallowing all of that ‘anti-racist crap,’ Mr CC seems to have not swallowed any of that ‘primary-school-level spelling ability crap,’ either.

    Such a shining and beautiful example of the ‘white race.’

  • Concerned Citizen

    Ruslan

    Let me see if I got this str8. You say white people shouldn’t go around they’re Irish or German and that they
    shold be content in being Americans. Okay…. Just one question. Where did we come from? we have no choi ce in how we turned out at birth. Let’s face it. Blacks have the Black Hertiage Bowl, Black Pride Parades and other minorities have the same the rights to be proud of their hertiages, but somehow you liberals can’t just get over the fact that not all whites swallow that anti racisst crap.
    All of this harmonial lovey dovey is enough to make anyone puke. By the sound of your name. You must be Russian or Eastern European. We whites has as much rights as the minoritiers but we whites are told to shut up and live with it. I say Phooey!!

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    “if you have to be told why adopting Nazi tactics of violently silencing your opposition by force is bad even against racist neo-Nazi jerks you really are no better than they are.”

    Sooooo….What about the Allies then? Personally I think that there might have been better ways to handle racists of this sort, the psuedo-intellectual coffee clutch types. But then you have the violent types who want to talk about starting a “race war”; they have no right to complain about violence when they preach it constantly.

  • http://twitter.com/AronL Aron

    Disrupting these meetings with violence sounds dangerously close to deprivation of their constitutional rights for my taste…

    This has some serious backfire potential.

  • Alice

    What if people with access to guns and histories of violent behavior towards any visible minority

    If you have information showing that these individuals have committed violent crimes, why aren’t you sharing it with the police?

    And if getting rid of them by force is the only method, then so be it.

    Because the police and FBI never investigate these groups, amiright?

    And like the bullies they are,

    How is sitting down and eating at a restaurant a form of “bullying”?

  • Reynardine

    Well, damn, Daemonesslisa, then the thing to do is get one of them to throw the first punch, and that in front of witnesses. As most of them have the brains of Coryphodons (the stupidest mammal that ever lived, q.v.,) it shouldn’t be difficult.

  • Erika

    if you have to be told why adopting Nazi tactics of violently silencing your opposition by force is bad even against racist neo-Nazi jerks you really are no better than they are.

  • daemonesslisa

    A lot of people seem to be condemning this attack. While I understand the SPLC doing so since they’re pledged to nonviolence, I wonder why other people are.

    Relate it to your life and ask yourself…what if neo-nazis were organizing in your neighborhood? What if people with access to guns and histories of violent behavior towards any visible minority were planning something in your neighborhood? What if people with histories of abuse and molestation against children were in the same neighborhood with your children?

    I, for one, would want them GONE. End of story.

    And if getting rid of them by force is the only method, then so be it. Violence is the only thing these racist degenerates understand anyway. And like the bullies they are, once they find out people are willing to stand up against their nazi crap, they run away and play victim.

    Another thing: if you’re worried that violence against them is only gonna galvanize them and make them more violent, remember that NOT fighting them in the streets does the exact same thing…only, then they get to gain more followers by recruiting them from the schools. Again, child abuse/molestation.

    I applaud ARA. Be young, have fun, smash racism!

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/GargamelGold?feature=mhee CriticalDragon1177

    Marilyn Elias

    The people who perpetrated the attack as well as the people who run Anti-Racist Action ought to be ashamed of themselves. What good will it do to use the thuggish tactics of the people who oppose our movement? Shame on you people. You do not have the right to act this way. As bad as racism is, just attacking people out of the blue, even if they’re racists, or any other type of bigot, is unjustified.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    “European Heritage Association.” Just more proof that White Nationalists don’t know dick about Europe. You’re not “European”, you’re not “Irish”, you’re just American. Start learning to get along with the other Americans.

  • Supersonic250

    *Sighs.* Just shows there’s extremists on BOTH sides of the aisle… and both are just as completely NUTS.

  • http://twitter.com/AronL Aron

    Ugh. While I agree with the general theories of Antifa and ARA, I cannot condone their action. Only use force when force has been used against yourself, and only sparingly.

  • Erika

    This is the wrong way to go about fighting racists.

    But I can’t help but laugh at the fine specimins of White men from the racist group – they get beat up and still get arrested. I especially love the fact that yet another White Nationalist was arrested for being a disgusting icky perv pedophile. The funniest part may well be that the icky perv White Nationalist is likely to get way more prison time for the child porn than the idiots who attacked the meeting

  • Reynardine

    Well, in five minutes, Jason Smith or somebody will claim that reporting on this incident proves incidents like this are never reported.