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Muslim-Basher Geller Dropped from Jewish Speaking Engagement
The Jewish Federation of Greater Los Angeles canceled a lecture it was going to host by Pam Geller (who is Jewish) just hours before it was supposed to be delivered Sunday morning. The Western Region Chapter of the Zionist Organization of America (ZOA), was sponsoring Geller’s speech, “Islamic Jew Hatred as the Root
Cause of Failure to Achieve Peace.”
The ZOA is a Jewish advocacy organization that claims more than 30,000 members and bills itself as the oldest pro-Israel group in America, involving itself in educating people about the “truth of the ongoing and relentless Arab war against Israel” and fighting things like “Arab propaganda” on campuses.
An interfaith coalition of Jewish, Islamic and Christian groups had expressed outrage on Saturday that the Federation was going to allow Geller to speak. “We are extremely shocked and alarmed to see a mainstream Jewish organization associating itself with one of the nation’s leading Islamophobes,” the coalition said in a prepared statement.
Geller fired back on her Atlas Shrugs blog, calling out the “Islamic supremacist Jew-haters of Hamas-CAIR” and making references to the Holocaust: “Jewish leadership is on the trains and thinks we will go quietly.” She wrote that though the Federation canceled the event, the ZOA organized a protest within a half-hour of the cancellation, where she was able to give her speech. The ZOA released a statement, posted on Geller’s blog, in which it claimed that the Federation “succumbed to political pressure by Muslim and Left-wing Jewish groups not to let a rational voice of criticism of Islam and its war against Israel be heard on its premises.”
Rational voice?
Geller, executive director of Stop Islamization of America, has ridden anti-Muslim hysteria – most notably her opposition to an Islamic center proposed for Lower Manhattan – to national and international prominence. She has promulgated some of the more bizarre conspiracy theories about Islam and President Obama on her website, including birtherism and claims that Obama is the love child of Malcolm X, that he was once involved with a “crack whore,” and that he is beholden to his “Islamic overlords.”
Norwegian terrorist Anders Breivik, the anti-Muslim mass murderer who slaughtered 77 of his countrymen, mostly teens, last July, cited Geller’s writings in his political manifesto. In response to media scrutiny, Geller seemed to justify his attack on a Labour Party summer youth camp by claiming the camp was part of an anti-Israel indoctrination training center and the victims would have grown up to become leaders of Norway who would then flood the country with Muslims who refuse to assimilate, commit violence and live on the dole.
on June 25th, 2012 at 4:38 pm
Well, sometimes I have thought that if Reinhardt Heydrich had been forced to reincarnate as a Jewish woman for the edification of his soul, but instead, had insisted on being a Nazi anyway…
on June 25th, 2012 at 5:35 pm
Rey, I’m sure you’ve heard the altogether plausible story that the Reichsprotektor of Bohemia and Moravia was one-quarter Jewish…
on June 25th, 2012 at 5:50 pm
This piece is a little hard to follow.
I take it that the “Jewish Federation of Greater Los Angeles” is the group described as mainstream and who cancelled the speech after objections.
The “Zionist Organization of America” is not mainstream and was the sponsor (and continued supporter) of Geller.
I thought that the 3rd paragraph “mainstream Jewish organization” referred to the ZOA.
on June 25th, 2012 at 7:21 pm
bye bye Pam
on June 25th, 2012 at 8:50 pm
Um, the title of her lecture was “Islamic Jew Hatred as the Root Cause of Failure to Achieve Peace,” and it took the federation how long to figure out that this was going to be nothing but extremist propaganda?
on June 26th, 2012 at 8:44 am
Aron, I’ve studied that story several times, and the consensus seems to be that he wasn’t, but he thought he was. Nonetheless, I have seen profile shots of him where his resemblance to a most noble Polish Jew of my acquaintance was striking.
on June 26th, 2012 at 8:46 am
She should really think about shortening the titles of her propaganda, nobody wants to read a five page resume. I got lost after Islamic Jew Hatred as….the root cause…of all…evil…(pinky touching corner of lips).
on June 26th, 2012 at 9:38 am
Either Goering or Goebbels was once questioned on the presense of partial Jews in high-ranking positions within the Nazi government. His response was basically, “I’ll decide who is Aryan or not.” Basically sums up Nazi racial “science.” In fact, the population of “Aryans” in Europe magically rose significantly in inverse proportion to the Nazis’ chances of winning the war.
on June 26th, 2012 at 9:56 am
Reynardine
You wrote,
———————————————————————————–
Well, sometimes I have thought that if Reinhardt Heydrich had been forced to reincarnate as a Jewish woman for the edification of his soul, but instead, had insisted on being a Nazi anyway…
———————————————————————————–
Haven’t Geller and Spencer joined forces with Nazis in the past? One wonders how their new “friends” will treat them assuming they win, given the fact that Geller is Jewish, and Spencer doesn’t seem to mind.
on June 26th, 2012 at 10:12 am
Ruslan, I believe you’re thinking of Erhard Milch, the son of a Jewish pharmacist. After Hitler granted him a German Blood Certificate, Goering was quoted as saying, ‘I decide who is a Jew.’
on June 26th, 2012 at 11:13 am
Well, Dragon, there was the time when, to please their Nazi allies, the Japanese were claiming to be secret Aryans. Meanwhile, though they did, indeed, believe themselves to be superior to the Chinese, Koreans, Philipinos, Guamanians, etc., whom they conquered, they actually hid and protected a number of Jews.
on June 26th, 2012 at 1:42 pm
Thank you, Aron. I was pretty sure it was Goering, on the subject of Milch, but I wasn’t sure.
on June 26th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
Heydrich, by the way, was so paranoid about the possibility of a Jewish alter-ego dwelling within himself that when he got good and drunk, he’d stare at his reflection in the mirror, waiting for his alter-ego to step out. When he thought he saw it, he’d shoot up the mirror. B’damn, it never worked for long. The next time he got leaking drunk, he’d always see it again.
on June 26th, 2012 at 5:32 pm
I really enjoy the way you all are schooled in history. I think it’s really important, unfortunately, I don’t study nearly as much as I should. Have a good evening.
on June 27th, 2012 at 1:14 am
For all purposes and reasons, the Aryan race doesn’t even exist. It was created as a way to discredit achievements of Indians/Persians who lived between the time period of 1500-1000 B.C.
But the Nazi Propaganda was something completely different.
on June 27th, 2012 at 8:42 am
Persians are “Aryans”; sometimes the “Aryans” were referred to as Indo-Aryans or Indo-Iranians, but the Nazis came up with a completely different definition of this “Aryan race,” known as “Indo-Germanic.” Of course this was total BS, but you can find the “history” of this “race” in countless examples of Nazi propaganda.
on June 27th, 2012 at 10:50 am
Ruslan, I believe some of them even asserted that ancestral “Aryans” had been dug out of hibernation in the Fennoscandian Ice Sheet, which doesn’t hold out much hope for the cryogenic preservation and subsequent revivification of brains.
on June 27th, 2012 at 4:47 pm
I believe I meant to say cryonic.
on June 28th, 2012 at 12:34 pm
As a Jew who is involved in my community and is a constant advocate for Israel, it shames me that the LA Federation asked one of the most racist conspiratorial bigots in our country to speak. The ZOA used to be a mainstream organization, but has become, if not as extreme as Geller, right on the edge. It behooves us main streamers to say no to them and other like thinkers, if you can call what they do thinking.
on June 28th, 2012 at 1:18 pm
Oh, Godwin’s Law. You never fail us.
on June 28th, 2012 at 4:32 pm
Thank you, Ian. #1, for not including my message as part of Godwin’s Law and #2, for making me look it up to see what it means; now I’m a more educated woman. I agree that all the Hitler/Nazi mentions in the above messages are totally irrelevant to the invitation and Geller. My eyes were getting crossed by the multiple examples,presumably related to the issue at hand, starting with Heydrich’s gene pool and ending with all those Aryans. Pick the kind you like best.
on June 28th, 2012 at 4:43 pm
Finally, there is a group out there who had the guts to stand up to gelled and all the fox news garbage the ZOA is gonna get from now on.
I hope there will be more people and organizations will say NO to all of the right wing propaganda, lies and hate-speech. I hope this will lead a landslide of people who finally say ENOUGH to hatred!! We are a multi-cultural nation, we should begin to act as if we had a clue as to the responsibilities we have taken on in building this kind of a nation.
And, firing geller is a really good first step!!
on June 28th, 2012 at 5:44 pm
There is a suspiciously apocryphal story told about Heydrich that he had the name of a grandmother named “Sarah “removed from her tombstone. Granted, the first name is hardly proof positive of Jewish ancestry ( Sarah is as common for shiksas as David is for Gentile men), but this strikes me as the behaviour of a man who has something to hide!
on June 29th, 2012 at 11:55 am
No, when a Jew acts like a Nazi, Godwin’s Law is relevant.
Loonwatch and several other sites have run phrase by phrase comparisons between what Nazi propagandists said about Jews and what Islamophobes say about Muslims, and they match to a degree where one suspects plagiarism. Anyone who makes blanket statements like that about their fellow human beings is a pathological hater, but any Jew who utters Julius Streicher’s words is also a sap. Is Heydrich’s phantom alter ego relevant? Yes, because every such hater has one. Is someone like Geller really saying, “I am not the Other, because that Other is the other”? Many of them are.
on June 29th, 2012 at 1:43 pm
Hatred for hatred is just as wrong as two wrongs never make a right and for some one as intelligent as Pam Geller, not only should know that, but to also express that. Jesus of Nazeruth, who also was Jewish, said “Love thine enemies 70 times 7.” He never taught hate, for a hater never stopped hating and that’s why we have wars amongst people.
on June 29th, 2012 at 4:22 pm
People often accuse a member of a minority group of bigotry without comparing them to someone who despises said minority group.
Hatewatch readers are well aware of the many times white nationalists have compared groupls like the National Council of La Raza or the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People to the Ku Klux Klan. Similarly, many people seem physically incapable of disagreeing with Jews or Israelis without comparing them to Nazis or Hitler.
The nicest thing one can say about such tactics is that they are unneccesary and unoriginal. The worst one can say about them is that they are antisemitic.
A comedy due named Garfunkle and Oats once ran a phrase by phrase comparison between what Hitler said and what Charlie Sheen has said. Clearly, following some commentors’ logic, Sheen is Hitler.
on June 29th, 2012 at 4:29 pm
EDIT: *People often accuse a member of a minority group of bigotry BYcomparing them to someone who despises said minority group.
Just to emphasize this point, Geller could have been compared to any hate group on the SPLC list or any tyrannical bigot in history or today. But out of all those groups and all those tyrannical bigots, Nazis and Hitler are the comparisons that just so happened to be picked. Why? Honesty ask why.
on June 29th, 2012 at 6:10 pm
Why, Ian? Because Geller’s language, as well as many another Islamophobe’s, Jew or otherwise, often so closely tracks Streicher’s (or secondarily, Hitler’s or Goebbel’s or Rosenberg’s, but especially Streicher’s) as to give rise to the suspicion that the anti-Semitic screeds were the templates for the anti- Islamic ones. Go see the article at Loonwatch, and the more complete article to which it links. Did Geller know that when she was fed that language, likely by someone who was laughing at her? Surely not. Does she know it now? No, she doesn’t want to.
on June 29th, 2012 at 6:29 pm
Ian and others, here is the link:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/.....new-again/
on June 30th, 2012 at 4:18 am
Geller uses the tactics of the Nazis, ergo it’s an apt comparison.
on July 1st, 2012 at 2:02 pm
Coincidentally, the Loonwatch site has been crashed the whole weekend.
on July 1st, 2012 at 9:28 pm
Today I learned that Pamela Geller has killed six million Muslims. Who knew.
The Loonwatch article quotes many former Muslims. The anti-Muslim crowd believes one can leave Islam. It is a system of belief and, like all systems of belief, one can attack it without attacking all members of the system of belief.
The Nazis believe that a Jew cannot change into a gentile. That’s why they killed atheist and Christians of Jewish heritage.
This ain’t rocket science.
But, to return to my point, let’s do an experiment. A comparison of the Google search results for site:loonwatch.com.
KKK = 227 results
Klan = 153
Westboro (as in the Baptist Church) = 30
“Christian Identity” = 24
Nazi = 1,130
Hitler = 700
And just to make sure we’re not talking about a different Nazi-related topic, there are 37 hits for “‘Grand Mufti’ Jerusalem”, and they all seem to be posts by commentators.
Geller et al, could be compared to any one of these numerous bigoted, paranoid ideologies. Yet comparing her only to the very people who would kill her and her family if given half the chance is good enough.
The obsession with calling Jews Nazis is a strange sickness among too many gentiles.
on July 2nd, 2012 at 8:49 am
Ian, Nazis and their ancestors often referred people to the Talmud for “proof” of what they said about Jews. Naturally they anticipated that curious individuals might actually ask Jews what certain selected passages actually meant. Their tactic was to claim that the Talmud also commanded Jews to lie about what was in the Talmud to gentiles.
Fast forward to today and we have people like Geller and Spencer posing as “experts” on Islam, telling us what various passages of the Quran secretly mean, and if any Muslim should bother to interpret them we are told that he is engaging in “Taqiyya” and “stealth jihad.”
See why the comparison is valid? Moreover, it is doubtful whether these people would accept de-converted Muslims unless they too became cheerleaders for imperialism and join in the attacks on Islam. The Nazis themselves were often accepting of some assimilated Jewish people who proved useful to them.
And nobody suggested Pamela Geller killed 6 million Muslims so could we end the drama fest?
on July 2nd, 2012 at 10:43 am
Ian, I could put the rest of your screed down to a comprehension too limited to analyze the matter at hand, with which Ruslan most nobly helped you. But your statement that you had learned that Geller had annihilated six million Muslims was either tasteless sarcasm or the most specious assertion I have ever heard.
The Nazis asserted that Jews were not individuals at all, but more or less a psychically-connected, monolithic anthill, Hell-bent on taking over the world. This is the same assertion Geller has made about Muslims.
The Nazis asserted that the Jews had never created anything of value, but were, instead, culture-thieves and culture destroyers. This is the same assertion that Geller and other Islamophobes make about Muslims.
The Nazis asserted that Jews could never be patriotic citizens of the countries where they had lived for generations, because they were always primarily loyal to the afore-mentioned Jewish central brain. In like fashion, Geller and her associates believe every last Muslim on earth is primarily responsive to the (imaginary) Caliphate.
Nazis dwelt with unwholesome glee on how Jewish males were constantly plotting to seduce and violate young Christian females. That is exactly how Geller and her cohorts speak about Muslim men.
And there is that issue of “taqqiya”, of which Ruslan spoke. What it actually meant was that a Muslim trapped in a society hell-bent on exterminating people of his faith was permitted to conceal that faith to protect himself and his family. That’s not what Geller means. To her, every offer of peace, every good deed, great or small, every peaceable or benign manifestation of faith, every word or act of patriotism for one’s country, even dying in battle for it- all, if done by a Muslim, are mere acts of deceit done to advance the victory of the Caliphate. Exactly so did the Nazis speak of the Jews. Has Geller killed six million Muslims? Not with her own hands, any more than Streicher personally killed six million Jews. Nonetheless, he hung for instigating it. What are Geller and her cohorts instigating?
on July 2nd, 2012 at 10:59 am
Cheerleaders for what kind of imperialism? Westerners are not now and have never been the only imperialists. I suppose Islamists who convert Westerners to Islam are also Nazis. Given Islamist support for Nazis in the past, it is surly a better fit than calling a Jew one.
Does accusing a group of being liars automatically make one a Nazi? Many other hate groups accuse entire races of lying or accuse gay people of lying. The homosexual agenda, Aztlan, not to mention the other antisemitic conspiracy theories by groups other than Nazis.
The very reason why bringing Nazis is an issue is that they murdered 6 million Jews. The murder of 6 million people is not a “drama fest”.
on July 2nd, 2012 at 11:39 am
What kind of imperialism? Two wars against Iraq, a planned one against Iran, and another against Egypt, all part of the PNAC agenda. PNAC has formally been dissolved, but the cadre is still very much there, and they’re advising Romney. And Ruslan did not call the murder of six million Jews a dramafest. He called your statement that Loonwatch had accused Geller of murdering six million Muslims a dramafest. As for your continuing misconstructions of other people’s statements and your increasing use of straw men and red herrings, it will soon have me calling you a Hammerhead.
on July 2nd, 2012 at 3:11 pm
Speaking of paranoid rantings such as Gellers:
“Two wars against Iraq, a planned one against Iran, and ANOTHER AGAINST EGYPT, all part of the PNAC agenda.”
Emphasis added.
Ruslan’s statement assumed there is only one type of imperialism. Ruslan is wrong. Hence my statement.
Only someone suffering from a terminal case of privilege can see nothing wrong with calling a Jew a Nazi without taking the Holocaust into account. It is the perpatration and advocacy of the mass murder of every single Jew on Earth that separates the Nazi from the normal bigot. Geller has not advocated or perpatrated the mass murder of every singler Muslim on Earth. The comparison is the inane statement of someone who sees the death of millions of innocent people as a rhetorical club with which to beat Jews.
Each one of the comparisons of Nazi propaganda and Geller’s statements (some of which need some serious citations) could be made with ANY other hate group or ideology, from the KKK to the Westboro Baptist Church to the Nation of Islam. But instead, people went right to the Nazi comparison, and from the very first post is is clearly evident that it is the fact that she is Jewish that directly lead to the idiotic, banal, offensive use of the reducto ad hitlerum.
It takes a special kind of person to look pitiful next to Pamela Geller, but by God it’s happened.
on July 2nd, 2012 at 3:34 pm
Oh, damn, Ian, either you are a specious little liar, or you yourself take the paranoid cake. I suppose there’s no bar to both.
on July 2nd, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Ian specializes in diverting the discussion whenever the subject is anti-Muslim bigotry. He’s made it clear from past comments that his issue isn’t necessarily with Islam as such, he’s just anti-religion in general and so regards anyone who’s anti- any religion, for any reason whatever, as a potential ally.
Ruslan, Ian pulled that “Which imperialism?” line with me on a previous thread, as if anti-Muslim bigotry in 2012 somehow could have fueled, say, Babylonian imperialism in the 8th century bce. I expect he wins a few points with it in barroom debates, where the meaninglessness of his point is less likely to be noticed.
on July 3rd, 2012 at 12:38 am
Ian, the Nazis did not openly call for the extermination of all Jews either. The closest was something which hinted at it in a speech of Hitler(and I’m not sure if that speech was made public at the time). Again, the rhetoric of Geller is extremely similar to the demonization tactics used by the Nazis.
The only person speaking from privilege here is you. We know you don’t like Muslims so you’ll defend any Islamophobic nutcase you can.
” I suppose Islamists who convert Westerners to Islam are also Nazis. ”
Oops, looks like someone doesn’t know what the definition of imperialism is!
“Given Islamist support for Nazis in the past, it is surly a better fit than calling a Jew one.”
Ever since the neo-Nazi poster Jason left, this has to be the stupidest comment on here. For one thing, several religions voiced massive support for the Nazis, the other being Christianity and Tibetan Buddhism. Pamela Geller propagandizes on behalf of actual imperialism. She could be compared to any number of low-level Nazi propagandists.
“Does accusing a group of being liars automatically make one a Nazi? Many other hate groups accuse entire races of lying or accuse gay people of lying. The homosexual agenda, Aztlan, not to mention the other antisemitic conspiracy theories by groups other than Nazis.”
I like how you actually make an effort to be extra dense. See you know I didn’t just say that Nazis accused Jews of lying, but you pretend that’s what I said. That’s because you can’t form a coherent, logical argument.
“The very reason why bringing Nazis is an issue is that they murdered 6 million Jews. The murder of 6 million people is not a “drama fest”.”
First this is a question of propaganda style and tactics, not copying the actions of the Nazis. Second, the Nazis killed far more non-Jews for the same reason(extermination based on “racial” grounds), but of course you don’t give a damn about them. Just like you don’t give a damn about Muslim civilians getting bombed in Afghanistan.
on July 3rd, 2012 at 9:09 am
You’re right, Ruslan, we haven’t seen little Jason in a while. What happened to him/them? Fratboys on summer vacation?
on July 3rd, 2012 at 9:21 am
Strange. I’m an atheist myself and in general I have a negative opinion of religion but that doesn’t mean I will join in the demonizing of a particular group when it is clear that this campaign is aimed at dehumanizing the targets of imperialism.
on July 3rd, 2012 at 9:24 am
Geller is not an ally. This should be clear to anyone at a highschool reading level who read my posts.
And the bars around here are too loud to debate about anything but football.
im·pe·ri·al·ism
noun
1. the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies.
Islamic imperialism clearly qualifies. Someone who uses “imperialism” to refer to the West only, is using the term wrong.
Ruslan, one of the way you said Nazi antisemitism and Geller’s views were similar is that they both accused the targeted group of lying. You said other things, but I was responding to that particular point. Once again, anything Geller has said could be compared to ANY hate group or hate ideology. Out of all these, you only comared this Jewish woman to Nazis, either out of antisemitism or out of sheer unoriginality.
“Ian specializes in diverting the discussion whenever the subject is anti-Muslim bigotry.”
One post later.
“Just like you don’t give a damn about Muslim civilians getting bombed in Afghanistan.”
I look forward to CM swiftly censuring Ruslan for changing the subject and strawmaning me. I will not hold by breath, however.
Non-Jews died during WWII, but only the Jews were targeted for total destruction. Although mass murders of Roma, Poles, Serbs, and allied POWs took place, Jews were targeted not simply for a genocide, but for a Holocaust, a complete extermination.
Thus, unless someone calls for the total extermination of an entire ethnic or racial group, calling them a Nazi is flat out wrong and exploitative. Geller has engaged in despicable apologetics for mass murderers, but until I hear calls for the literal killing of an entire ethnic or racial group, the term just doesn’t fit. We saw this every other week with Glenn Beck, it’s no better when done by the left.
Be more creative.
on July 3rd, 2012 at 9:28 am
Ruslan, if memory serves me, the speech in question was one of three similar utterances, but it was the one most publicly given, and it was uttered in the Reichstag in 1939. Ron Rosenbaum quoted all three passages in “Explaining Hitler”.
on July 3rd, 2012 at 9:46 am
“im·pe·ri·al·ism
noun
1. the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies.”
In that case the last example of Islamic imperialism was the Ottoman Empire, which typically did not force populations to convert to Islam. Way to stay up-to-date.
“Ruslan, one of the way you said Nazi antisemitism and Geller’s views were similar is that they both accused the targeted group of lying.”
No, I said that they claim to use the Holy books of Islam to “prove” their point, as anti-Semites do with the Talmud, and then claim that anyone who tries to explain these points in another, non-sinister way, must be lying as these holy books command them to. As I said, it was claimed that the Talmud instructed Jews to lie about the content of their book, so if anyone were to dispute, for example, the claim that the Talmud legalizes sex with children under three,(a common myth still used today) they could be dismissed because they were compelled by their religion to lie about it. In the case of Islam, terms like “Taqiyya” or “stealth jihad” are invoked.
“Non-Jews died during WWII, but only the Jews were targeted for total destruction. Although mass murders of Roma, Poles, Serbs, and allied POWs took place, Jews were targeted not simply for a genocide, but for a Holocaust, a complete extermination.”
Incorrect. The German “Lebensraum” was to be cleansed of all non-German groups which were said to be the cause of “blood poisoning.” Hence, the Wartheland in Poland was cleansed of Polish residents while other Polish areas were not. The reason being that the Germans decided to resettle the area with German farmers. A much larger genocide was planned for an area of the USSR up to the so-called “Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line”, which generally includes Ukraine, Belarus, and European Russia. The population was to be exterminated, starved, or forced East of that line, with the only remnants being used up for slave labor and sterilized. It was in the interest of carrying out this plan that a large amount of Jews killed in the Holocaust were destroyed mostly by the firing squads of the Einsatzgruppen.
The need to kill Jews and other undesirables more quickly, along with the realization at the end of 1941 that Germany could lose the war, prompted the process by which the Nazis developed a means to mass exterminate people on a greater scale.
“Thus, unless someone calls for the total extermination of an entire ethnic or racial group, calling them a Nazi is flat out wrong and exploitative.”
Sorry, but this is stupid. You could just as easily say that unless someone espouses a “blood and soil” romantic view of the countryside and independent peasant farmers, you can’t compare them to Nazis. It’s not all or nothing.
” We saw this every other week with Glenn Beck, it’s no better when done by the left.”
Mr. Beck accused leftists, real and imagined, of being Nazis. Ms. Geller is a right-winger. It makes far sense to compare a right-wing extremist to another group of right-wing extremists.
on July 3rd, 2012 at 9:51 am
Well, I see our dear little Hammerhead is back.
Read “Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” or any other good history of the period, Ian, and you will see that Russians were destined for extermination, while Czechs and Poles were to have all tall, blond, blue-eyed children with dainty noses stolen from them and raised as Germans, while intellectuals were to be liquidated and the remaining population, where not actually worked to death, were to be subjected to disculturization and linguicide and thoroughly Helotized. Yes, even the co-opted and stupidly spiteful Slovak Hammerheads. That’s what happens to Hammerheads. Meanwhile, if Pamela Geller, like Ayn Rand, happens to be a Jewish woman with swastika envy, we can’t help it if she’s as meanly given to brainless self-destruction as a Slovak. We can only warn you to pull yourself up before you wind up in the same place.
on July 3rd, 2012 at 11:09 am
^Threats. Classy.
And honestly, Ayn Rand? Now we’re saying Ayn Rand is a Nazi? The woman who compared the social safety net to concentration camps is now a national socialist? Does the term “Nazi” mean anything to you, or is it just a label you stick on people you don’t like (especially the Jewish ones)?
“[I]t was claimed that the Talmud instructed Jews to lie about the content of their book”
You could be talking about many other groups in this statement, but you do not compare Geller to these other groups.
“The German ‘Lebensraum’ was to be cleansed of all non-German groups which were said to be the cause of “blood poisoning.”
Jews were exterminated in areas outside the Lebensram.
Reread what I said: “Although mass murders of Roma, Poles, Serbs, and allied POWs took place, Jews were targeted not simply for a genocide, but for a Holocaust, a COMPLETE extermination.” Poles were not targeted for complete extermination.
“You could just as easily say that unless someone espouses a ‘blood and soil romantic view of the countryside and independent peasant farmers, you can’t compare them to Nazis.”
Yes, you could just as easily say that.
You could VERY easily say that.
on July 3rd, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Who’s threatening you, Ian? Warning you about the ultimate results of Hammerhead mentality isn’t threatening unless we’re talking about harming you ourselves, just as telling you bareback riding can give you Gomorrah isn’t a threat unless we’re talking about causing your infection ourselves
Ayn Rand thought like a Nazi. Pamela Geller thinks like a Nazi. That’s what swastika envy does to people. Get over it, Hammerhead.
on July 3rd, 2012 at 2:05 pm
“You could be talking about many other groups in this statement, but you do not compare Geller to these other groups.”
What groups say this? Why should I compare her to those other groups when anti-Semites have used that exact same tactic against Jews?
“Jews were exterminated in areas outside the Lebensram.”
Your point being? The Germans originally planned only to expel Jews from their territory(aside from those they found in the invasion of the USSR, which were to be executed under the “Kommissar Order”). As it became clear that they could lose the war, they started considering ways to wipe out Jews in Europe as well.
“Reread what I said: “Although mass murders of Roma, Poles, Serbs, and allied POWs took place, Jews were targeted not simply for a genocide, but for a Holocaust, a COMPLETE extermination.” Poles were not targeted for complete extermination.”
This is semantic nonsense, because I think it’s safe to say that Nazi Germany didn’t realistically think that they could eliminate all Jews in say, the USA, Latin America, or China. Likewise, they attempted to eradicate all Jews, Ukrainians, Belorussians, and Muscovite Russians from the territory they wanted. Obviously this would not have totally wiped them from the face of the earth but it would have caused somewhere around 80 million deaths, not counting what would happen when a few million refugees are suddenly forced beyond the Ural mountains. So can one then claim that Generalplan Ost was not a plan of mass genocide and eradication of Soviet citizens(including Jews) west of the Urals? Of course not.
“Yes, you could just as easily say that.
You could VERY easily say that.”
Yes, if one were a moron one could very easily say that. Basically your argument amounts to “Geller doesn’t say EVERYTHING the Nazis said about Jews about Muslims, ergo she needs to be compared to someone else.” Sorry but that is nonsense, and don’t even try to claim that this is a strawman.
on July 3rd, 2012 at 3:43 pm
Reynardine, I have to object to your slanderous statements about the noble hammerhead shark – professional courtesy and all you know ;)
unless you mean “hammerhead” as in someone who repeatedly hits himself in the head with a hammer. then carry on :)
on July 3rd, 2012 at 5:23 pm
I find you bizarrely facinating. Please, continue.
on July 5th, 2012 at 11:06 am
Why, Erika, a Hammerhead is someone who repeatedly uses his own thick head as a hammer, thus damaging his own (tiny) brain, as well as those of anyone else he can actually hit.
I myself have a professional admiration for sharks, though many years out of the business. A hammerhead shark, though, has better sense than to use its head in the way human Hammerheads do. Maybe that’s because its brain is larger.
on July 5th, 2012 at 2:04 pm
It’s genuinely sad to see Reynardine’s bizarre anti-gay rant was has not been unequivocally condemned. It seems many leftists on this site abandon our principals when it’s slightly inconvenient.
I don’t have to try to claim Ruslan’s summation of my point is a straw man. It’s clear to any unbiased person of average English skills. Basically, my argument is that someone should not call someone a Nazi unless they are a national socialist. It’s a practice held by all decent people and I thought it was more self-evident than it apparently is.
Yes, the Nazis did think they were going to kill all Jews around the world. No, it was not realistic. But then again, Nazis aren’t really known for being realistic, are they?
The possibility that the Nazi plan for their treatment of the “Jewish Question” allegedly changed – a view that is not even close to being as widely agreed upon by historians as you apparently think – does not change the point. The point was the Jews were targeted for total extinction, thus giving the term “Nazi” a particular power when used against a Jew. Whether this attempted extinction was started in 1933 or 1941 is a bit beside the point, don’t you think?
And “what groups say this?” A quick trip through the Intelligence Files would do everyone some good.
on July 5th, 2012 at 2:58 pm
*What* anti-gay rant? Someone has leapt over the tree of wisdom and landed in a puddle on the other side.
on July 5th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
I’m going to stand with Rey here. Ian, there was no ‘anti-gay rant.’ Just as there was no ‘threat.’
There is, however, a ‘concern troll.’ And his name is Ian. And he managed to derail the thread just as handily as Funinsnow.
on July 5th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
Aron, don’t utter the name of that corpse-defiler, please.
on July 5th, 2012 at 7:46 pm
“[T]elling you bareback riding can give you Gomorrah isn’t a threat unless we’re talking about causing your infection ourselves.”
on July 6th, 2012 at 8:49 am
Gomorrahcoccus, Ian. Bareback riding can give it to you. Normally, penicillin cures it.
on July 6th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
” Basically, my argument is that someone should not call someone a Nazi unless they are a national socialist. It’s a practice held by all decent people and I thought it was more self-evident than it apparently is.”
No, this is an idiotic idea which makes no sense. For one thing, I’m not calling her a Nazi, I was merely comparing her rhetoric to that of the Nazis. While the term is often over-used today, it doesn’t mean that it should only be used when someone overtly claims to be a “National Socialist.” There are plenty of other movements which deny being “Nazis” while clearly adhering to their ideology. The National Alliance was a perfect example.
“Yes, the Nazis did think they were going to kill all Jews around the world. No, it was not realistic. But then again, Nazis aren’t really known for being realistic, are they?”
You have to tell me how you managed to read the minds of so many dead people at once.
“The possibility that the Nazi plan for their treatment of the “Jewish Question” allegedly changed – a view that is not even close to being as widely agreed upon by historians as you apparently think – does not change the point. The point was the Jews were targeted for total extinction, thus giving the term “Nazi” a particular power when used against a Jew. Whether this attempted extinction was started in 1933 or 1941 is a bit beside the point, don’t you think?”
Actually you’re wrong. Look up the “Functionalist vs. intentionalist debate” on the Holocaust.
on July 6th, 2012 at 1:16 pm
Wait, is Ian saying that heterosexual people do not have veneral diseases?
You know Reynardine, I’m thinking that swimming with hammerhead sharks is definitely much safer than being around human hammerheads
on July 6th, 2012 at 2:59 pm
Well, Erika, it sure looks that way. You’re right, don’t swim in water where human hammerheads have been spawning.
on July 6th, 2012 at 3:06 pm
Erika, don’t pretend to be naive. Every reading this knows damn well what s/he meant by “barebacking” and “Gommorah”, i.e. Sodom and.
Ruslan,
The NA were very pro-Hitler.
I said “The possibility that the Nazi plan for their treatment of the ‘Jewish Question’ allegedly changed – A VIEW THAT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING AS WIDELY AGREED UPON BY HISTORIANS AS YOU APPARENTLY THINK – does not change the point.”
Emphasis added.
You were acting like the funcionalist/intentionalist debate did not exist, not me. You, a non-historian, were the one presenting one side of that debate as indisputable fact, not me.
But again, even if the functionalist position were indisputably true, it’s beside the point we’re talking about.
Unless the point is your intellectual insecurity.
on July 6th, 2012 at 3:44 pm
Ian, “barebacking” refers to condomless sex, and only one partner need be male. Only “Sodom” is associated with homosexuality, and that only by a mistaken (or deliberately artful) construction of what is supposed to have happened in that city. The rest is a pun…you know, a joke? Oligophrenics don’t get jokes. And if Ruslan ever should experience intellectual insecurity, it won’t be on your account.
As for intentionalist versus functionalist, though I am in the former camp, I do not think Hitler’s “intent” was limited to Jews at all.
on July 6th, 2012 at 7:33 pm
Ian,
Stop digging. The hole is deep enough already. Word to the wise, from someone who has no interest in this particular discussion.
on July 7th, 2012 at 2:36 am
“Ruslan,
The NA were very pro-Hitler.”
Doesn’t matter. In their own documents(the NA handbook), they said that while they drew a lot of inspiration from National Socialist Germany, they were not a National Socialist or “Nazi” organization. Therefore, by your bizarre logic, it would be wrong to call them a neo-Nazi organization.
“I said “The possibility that the Nazi plan for their treatment of the ‘Jewish Question’ allegedly changed – A VIEW THAT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING AS WIDELY AGREED UPON BY HISTORIANS AS YOU APPARENTLY THINK – does not change the point.”
I’m sorry but you’re wrong, the functionalist argument won the debate, and as I said, the Nazis planned to expel or exterminate large groups of other people as well. And this doesn’t change the point, which is that a person need not advocate the exact same thing as Nazis to be likened to Nazis.
“You were acting like the funcionalist/intentionalist debate did not exist, not me. You, a non-historian, were the one presenting one side of that debate as indisputable fact, not me.”
You are also a non-historian, and if I was acting like the functionalist-intentionalist debate didn’t exist, then WHY did I tell you to look up ‘functionalist-intentionalist DEBATE?’
“But again, even if the functionalist position were indisputably true, it’s beside the point we’re talking about.”
Not really, since you seem to imply that if Geller doesn’t advocate the mass extermination of Muslims, she can’t be compared to Nazis.
Look Ian, we all know you. You don’t like Muslims. You hold many of the same prejudices as Geller. Perhaps Geller’s insanity is a little distasteful to you, especially given her links to the far-right, but for whatever reason you don’t like people connecting Islamophobia with Nazism because to some extent you agree with the former. You’re saying a lot more than you think.
on July 7th, 2012 at 1:26 pm
“As for intentionalist versus functionalist [...] I am in the former camp”
I’m sure Hilberg would have been thrilled to have such a mature intellectual giant on his side.
on July 9th, 2012 at 10:14 am
Ian, your exsartaginations provide us with endless entertainment.