I don’t think we’re any better off having turned our formerly free nation into a police state, especially since the terror threat could be resolved easily enough by improved foreign policy.

Our nation has the highest prison population per capita anywhere in the world, especially in so-called “law and order” areas. We practice the death penalty and other forms of torture routinely, including the use of rape as discipline in our profitable prison industry.

Somehow I don’t feel safer because of it.

I think you mis-interpreted what I was saying.

I was talking ONLY about Al Queda and 911. 911 had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq. It never has.

I am not ignorant enough to believe it ever has either, and have never believed the Iraq war was necessary. Period.

911/ Al Queda and Iraq are two entirely separate issues.

I am not sure what I posted to make you believe otherwise… or if you just made and assumption that I was some lunatic right winger because I am pro law and order…

Whatever…

Al Queda was not operating in Iraq, and I never said it was. At the time of 911, it was operating in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Ethiopia and numerous other countries in the Middle East.

If you read “The Looming Tower”, it explains the formation of Al Queda, how it relates to other Islamic militant movements, the targeting of the USS Cole, the bombings at American embassies in Africa, the first WTC bombing… and 911…etc.

It also explains how when Bin Laden was kicked out of Saudi Arabia, he was sheltered by Afghanistan, even after the head of the Taliban had promised the Sauds that he would put a very short leash on Bin Laden.

“The Looming Tower” also explains in excruciating detail how the CIA and the FBI have been in a pissing war for the last few decades, which caused a lack of cooperation… and the CIA knew the Al Queda operatives were in the United States quite some time before 911 and they failed to share intelligence on this.

This is real. It continues to be real. And, sad to say, the war in Iraq has been nothing but a ten year recruiting tool for Islamic militants.

To say the threat is “exaggerated” doesn’t even suggest an inkling of understanding about what really happened and where the true blame lies.

Fortunately, “the wall” between the CIA and the FBI has come down. That is not to say that I agree with any of the following: The Patriot Act, development of DHS (which drained funding from FEMA and was the primary cause of the lack of response for Katrina), and other over-reaching policy such as the legalization of racial profiling in Arizona, etc etc. etc.

I hope I make my opinions and beleifs clear.

Sorry for the thread hijack to everyone else. I don’t like internet discussions where people make assumptions about you when they mis-understand what you were saying… so I do explain what I have learned, in hopes somewhere along the line we can all make better decisions…

George W. Bush fixed the intelligence around Iraq’s supposed link to terror in order to comply with the policy decision to wage war.

If that is not being duped I don’t know what is. Fear is the most powerful motivator in politics.

Read “The Looming Tower” and then tell me how it was a hoax, why don’t you???

I am not saying our government was justified with every action they took after 911… but the threat was, and continues to be very real.

Erika,

I believe there is truth in what you say. Even now and then you get a few bad apples in the State and Federal forces as well.

If you really want to be sick, google the Colorado City, Arizona Police Department… you know, the guys who follow Warren Jeffs, but wear a badge…

I’ve had an overload of work the last few weeks, but I enjoy coming here to sock it to the sock puppets.

And, sorry, I live and die with the Yankees…my family has been rooting for them since the 1920s. We also like the New York/San Francisco Giants, too.

Only now realizing you were duped? I am not saying conspiracy. I am saying jingoism.

While I’m not a big fan of your love for the Evil New York Yankees, I find your invective to be very entertaining.

Missed you, pal!

The FBI and the State Police (at least in Virginia) hire very well qualified and professional people. During my brief period in criminal defense, I knew that if a charge was brought by the State Police you were not likely to beat it because they did things by the book – if it was brought by the local guys, you definitely had a chance. The FBI generally requires an advanced degree and the state police requires at least a 4 year college degree. They also pay much better. The local not so much – in many places, they hire people who are friends or nephews of the Sheriff who have no discernible skill at anything other than perhaps being a jerk.

The best way to reform the police is to set higher qualifications and increase the salary. Also better screening to get rid of the bigots. Much of the abuse – and often sheer incompetence – will go away.

Annie/Jason…do tell us how the Holocaust never happened!

Then tell us how the Russian people greeted their Nazi invaders with flowers!

Then tell us how Norman Rockwell sided with Hitler!

Then show us your proof that the white man is superior to the black man!

And tell us again how you’ll prove it to us, only if we pay you vast sums of money, showing that you’re into neo-Nazism and junior Fascism for that noblest of purposes…the money!

Then you can give us citations and evidence for all these wacky ideas!

Until then, the tumbrels await for you!

Maybe because the threat of terrorism was wildly exaggerated for political expediency?

According to you, it takes no brains to become a LEO of any kind?

I am a liberal, but I also have plenty of friends in law enforcement.

Like those who cream their pants about police doing their jobs, you have absolutely no clue what it takes to be a LEO.

One, the regulations in any federal, state or local agency are very complex and open to interpretation. If a LEO does not apply these laws within strict ethical standards, they will not only lose their jobs, but will be subject to criminial prosecution.

Two, the level of pay most LEOs recieve in porportion to the risk they endure (as all military members I know as well) is just short of scandalous.

Three, if all federal agents are just stupid goons, can you explain to me how we in the US have avoided any major succesful terrorist activities since 911 (outside of the accasional wing nut shooting spree)?

Just a few things to consider.

I apologize for the thread hijack to all the other posters… but as usual… the simple minds are prone to making simple minded posts.

There are those who like to breed ingnorance (including reactionaries on both sides of the political spectrum), and then there are those of us who actually read and research any way we can in order to educate ourselves on the reality of the United States of America.

If I were an ICE agent and walked around every day on duty with a big fat target on my back put there by the Mexican drug cartels, I would not think $100,000 a year to be an unreasonable salary.

Just my two cents.

No one needs to jump to the conclusion that I am conservative, or racist, or a tea bagger. I am very liberal on most issues (which I will expound on if requested) but I have a lot of mixed feelings on others because these are such complicated times.

Immigration is very complex, and there needs to be major reforms… but let’s not demonize all government workers as armed goons for the sake of argument…

Carry on.

The Senator whom you quoted made some valid points, but I would not necessarily say that critics of strict enforcement do so out of a lack of respect for the legal principles that she mentioned. There is a tendency to assume that those who favor amnesty do so because they support a long-term policy of unconditional asylum, with the law and practical considerations trumped by compassion. But is it not possible that their views might be more nuanced, that perhaps what they are talking about is a short-term means of avoiding the consequences of broken families, loss of business patronage, etc. that are inherent to deportation? The response that I receive when I make this suggestion is usually along the lines of, “Well, that will just attract a swarm of new arrivals,” but given the tighter security at the border, and the massive increase in the number of deportations that I mentioned in an earlier post, I just don’t buy that argument; this isn’t 1995.

The comment about Johnson’s summary of ideal policy is interesting and I remain in your debt for it. However, it is very easy for lawmakers to bow to popular will, promising things which cannot be delivered.

The current Administration has proven itself to be tougher on immigration than just about any in history (I do forgive the Jacksonian purists who would protest) and still the opponents of Obama claim he is soft on immigration.

I would like to ask you, Walt, one thing: at what point do you believe the cost of enforcing immigration misdemeanors can be borne by taxpayers when our budget is already grotesquely oriented toward being the world’s police and bristling our borders with drones and boots on the ground?

Before you answer, how much does immigrant labor contribute to our economy. Cost includes the inintended consequences of shutting down entire productive industries that depend on immigrant labor. Some jobs would migrate toward citizen workers, more would simply disappear because of the higher cost. Are you willing to pay $20 per pound for onions?

So is there truth to the moral question, as Johnson describes. Yes, in a pure, arid dimension of political diatribe yes, it makes sense. But on a practical level it requires a bit more than moral indignity. And there are the corresponding morals of disrupting families and imposing strain on diplomatic relations.

Back during the Clinton administration they did implement something similar to E-Verify for employers to use to verify worker’s resident status. Late U.S. Rep. Barbara Jordan, (D-Texas) the first black woman from the South to be elected to the U.S. Congress, who was Chair of the Commission on Immigration Reform, made these remarks as part of her testimony to a U.S. House of Representatives subcommittee on the Judiciary:

“Credibility in immigration policy can be summed up in one sentence: Those who should get in, get in; those who should be kept out, are kept out; and those who should not be here will be required to leave.”

“To make sense about the national interest in immigration, it is necessary to make distinctions between those who obey the law, and those who violate it. Therefore, we disagree, also, with those who label our efforts to control illegal immigration as somehow inherently anti-immigrant. Unlawful immigration is unacceptable,” Jordan told the 1995 Committee.

The Commission’s recommendations included mandatory electronic verification of legal employment eligibility – “employer sanctions can work” Jordan said. On public benefits (taxpayer-funded services) Ms. Jordan’s Commission recommended against eligibility for illegal aliens “except in most unusual circumstances.”

“Moral obligations work well enough in church, but the law requires a contract,” she correctly observed.

“Deportation is crucial,” the Presidential Medal of Freedom award winner also advised.

Ms. Jordan reflected the views of vast majority of Americans who are still waiting for equal protection under the law -justice – in their own country.

FWIW – after Hispanics the largest group of immigrants here illegaly are Irish – part of my own ancestry.

No, I disagree with your statement. In fact, those ICE agents that look like Mexicans may very well be so, but they are not very educated at all, in fact, most do not have the equivalent of a bachelors degree but a basic high school education, training in law enforcement, and bilingual skills (the ability to speak Spanish is the predominate factor in why they are hired to begin with), and the compensation (over $60,000K), which is why they dishonorably chose to work in the capacity as ICE agents, or as you say, “hysterical,” but what I say, “sad irony” in deporting people are share the same national/ethnic heritage.

I find the hubba hubba in Hispanic men and Mexican American males who have enough self-respect and cultural sensitivity, and who are truly, really educated so as NOT to work as ICE agents. :)

What I meant to say:

As long as there are Americans who insist on paying pennies to “illegal immigrants” who do some of the most back breaking work on the planet… the problem will contine.

I do not blame “illegals” for wanting a better life, but I do blame greedy farmers, business owners, etc. who refuse to follow the law and hire people who are citizens for minimum wage.

Those are the people who should be thrown in jail. Other criminals that are not here legally need to be deported as the current administration is doing. Non criminals, most women and most children need a ten year option to work towards citizenship if they keep their nose to the grindstone and obey all other laws.

It is not a simple case of “us” and “them” as the racists would like us to believe…

The other thing is as soon as the US has an ECONOMIC REASON to not hire illegal immigrants for ANYTHING… problem solved. If there were not countless individuals and small businesses, farms, etc. hiring illegals and paying them 10% of minimum wage… guess what… no “opportunity” = no illegals.

Simply put- some American citizens are profitting GREATLY from the cheap labor, or the issue would not exist.

I think I know what Annie means by “white food” btw:

white bread
mayonaise
turkey
mased potatoes
grits…

you get the picture.

Also- of note, which I find hysterical… on a recent trip through the Southwest, guess what most of the ICE officers (border patrol- dhs) look like… you guessed it… they “look” like Mexicans. Obviously it helps if they are fluent in Spanish, but the majority are very educated and very nice looking men (hubba hubba)… oh the irony!

How do legal immigrants NOT contribute to overpopulation(hint: “overpopulation” is a myth)? If you’re only upset about illegal immigrants, would you support measures to make legal immigration easier, seeing as how this is the most humane, efficient, and overall painless way to solve this problem?

“How can you people say that adding to our population will not cause additional strain to our already overburdened environment?”

Do you also support limited childbirth among US citizens? A one-child policy, perhaps?

“Do you people actually expect us to believe that these illegals are not using our pubic resources, such as hospitals, food banks, etc.?”

Again and again studies show that illegal immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out. That comes directly from the GAO and the Social Security Administration. So maybe you could claim that an illegal immigrant agent infiltrated these agencies to ensure the creation of a fake study, or you can accept the facts as they are.

Illegal immigrants are not eligible for most public welfare programs. Try calling up your local welfare office and asking.

“wouldn’t you say that this causes problems with the poor people already living here, who rely on those resources? ”

Yes, I’m sure you’re so concerned about America’s poor. You conservatives always are.

“and, do you expect us to believe that illegals are not taking our jobs, an issue that is extremely relevant, especially since unemployment is so high in this country?”

There is no evidence that illegals “take jobs.” Did one take your job? The job of someone you know? Call the police and report it.

Even if you can cite a scenario where a citizen was fired and an illegal hired in their place, what happened was the owner of the means of production(the business owner) took the job away from the former and gave it to the latter.

“Aside from that, it seems to me that SPLC’s real agenda in this case is to prevent people from defending themselves against a foreign invasion,”

Operation Barbarossa was an invasion. If immigration constitutes an invasion, then virtually all countries in the world, including many developing countries, are being ‘invaded’ as we speak.

‘and to see that white people in particular are outnumbered by minorities.’

Hmmm…That’s strange. I thought you were only concerned about illegal immigration, you know, the federal misdemeanor. What does this have to do with race? After all, a lot of the illegal immigrants are either white Hispanic or even European.

‘ This group does nothing but attack white people, using the weakest of reasons to classify certain groups as “hate” groups, mostly to justify it’s own lucrative existence.’

Please show us an example of one of these attacks on white people.

‘ and I can’t help but notice the glaring absence of investigations of anti-white separatist groups, such as the Nation of Islam, MECHA, etc., among it’s files.’

And I can’t help but noticed you didn’t look very hard. Also, Mecha isn’t “anti-white.”

It must be truly awful to lack the ability to SEARCH THROUGH THE ENTIRE GODDAMNED SITE before you pass judgement.

That being said, don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

Pop quiz: Who should I be angry at?

a. The unions for letting this happen in Texas?
b. The contractors for hiring cheaper labor?
c. Texas for being a right to work state?

You can dress this up any way you want too. They’re only gonna take your jobs if someone hires them. I don’t see any illegals owning wealthy corporations. Maybe FAIR should protest the wealthy business owners who hire them to cut down on costs.

Someone ought to file an infringement notice with the Sockpuppet’s Union.

Because immigration does not change the world population. Since the environment is all connected, moving people from here to there doesn’t change the net effect of overpopulation.

“Do you people actually expect us to believe that these illegals are not using our pubic resources, such as hospitals, food banks, etc.?”

Pubic resources?

Anyway, the illegal immigrants actually subsidize our social systems by working for substandard wages. If our economy had to pay full market wages for their services there would be much less left over for other things.

Illegal immigrants do not come here to bask in our nonexistent social welfare programs. They come here to work in construction, agriculture and a few other industries.

“do you expect us to believe that illegals are not taking our jobs, an issue that is extremely relevant, especially since unemployment is so high in this country?”

See? You are confused. Do they take our jobs or take our welfare payments? It can’t be both.

The answer is neither. They work for wages too low to support a reasonable lifestyle in the US. They subsidize us.

“and to see that white people in particular are outnumbered by minorities.”

So in your view minorities are not US citizens, even if they are? And also, aren’t Hispanics white? You are confused in your own beliefs. Think about them more clearly then come back.

” Personally, I’m disgusted with SPLC and it’s supporters.”

Yes, a lot of people are. Look at those people who hate the SPLC and see if you want to be among them, rather than around us.

“This group does nothing but attack white people, using the weakest of reasons to classify certain groups as “hate” groups, mostly to justify it’s own lucrative existence.”

Nope, you are wrong there. If you look into it enough to see why you are wrong in this then you will no longer feel as you do about the SPLC.

“and I can’t help but notice the glaring absence of investigations of anti-white separatist groups, such as the Nation of Islam, MECHA, etc., among it’s files.”

…thus proving that you have not looked at the SPLC files or read much (any?) of this web site. See, the people you are listening to are _lying_ to you…