Hatewatch Tweets
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Ruby Ridge Carved Niche in History
Editor’s Note: This article was first published on Aug. 19 in The Spokesman-Review, based in Spokane, Wash. The 11-day siege at Ruby Ridge began 20 years ago today, on Aug. 21, 1992. The author of this post covered the Aryan Nations and other extremist groups during his 37-year career as a reporter with The Spokesman-Review.
Ruby Ridge.
Who would have thought 20 years ago this week that those two words would become an icon, a reference point in American culture?
More than a deadly siege in North Idaho that claimed the lives of a mother, her son and a federal marshal, the standoff at Ruby Ridge became a rallying point for the extremist movement and made Randy Weaver, the white supremacist at the center of the event, a hero to those groups. It also changed the way federal law enforcement handles standoffs with fugitives.
Historians and extremism experts offer varying assessments of the 11-day siege that was named Ruby Ridge after a mountain crest near Naples, Idaho, not far from the hand-built cabin of Weaver and his family.
It took years, including a congressional hearing in 1995, to sort out the sequence of events, and there are still points of disagreement.
But almost everyone – from antigovernment activists and racists to academics and historians – agrees that Ruby Ridge was a big deal, with lasting impacts.
The sparks of antigovernment anger that Ruby Ridge ignited in August 1992 grew much larger one year later when federal agents engaged in another siege in Waco, Texas. That event left four federal agents and 83 members of the Branch Davidian religious sect dead.
Those back-to-back events, experts generally agree, fueled the antigovernment movement that lingers today, erupting in occasional violence and deadly threats against law enforcement.
The events in North Idaho in August 1992 became “the opening shot in what would soon become a more or less open war between the American radical right and its government,” said Mark Potok, a senior fellow at the Southern Poverty Law Center and editor of its “Intelligence Report,” a magazine that tracks extremism.
Ruby Ridge was a “flashpoint” in U.S. history, Potok said, where “white-hot anger at the federal government finally ignited.”
Historian and author Michael Barkun, a professor emeritus at Syracuse University, said Ruby Ridge was of “major significance” to right-wing extremists. “It confirmed the belief that they were at war with the federal government,” he said.
“In their minds, other battles were to follow, such as Waco, and with them was generated a preoccupation with movement martyrs – again, a theme for which Ruby Ridge was one of the points of origin,” Barkun said.
Mark Pitcavage, director of investigative research for the Anti-Defamation League, said Ruby Ridge must be considered alongside the Branch Davidian standoff.
“Had only one of those events occurred, the future might have been different,” Pitcavage said. “Coming as they did as a one-two punch, they had tremendous ramifications that we still feel today.”
The “one-two punch” not only help galvanize the white supremacist movement, it also re-shaped the so-called “patriot movement,” a broad group composed of various antigovernment extremists, said Pitcavage, who holds a doctorate in American history from Ohio State.
Ruby Ridge and Waco together also became the “midwife” for the militia movement of the 1990s, he said.
“Waco, in a sense, provided people the ability to use Ruby Ridge symbolically without fear of association with white supremacy,” Pitcavage said. “Thus, Ruby Ridge and Waco together ended up not merely mobilizing white supremacists but a much larger section of the extreme right.”
Heidi Beirich, director of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center, said Ruby Ridge “was the spark that ignited a social movement that exists to this day and has seen its numbers explode since the election of President Obama.”
The shooting of Randy Weaver’s wife and son by federal agents “set off serious suspicions” of government agencies and law enforcement in the ranks of antigovernment activists, “creating a wedge that has only widened,” Beirich said.
Beyond their cultural and political impacts, Ruby Ridge and Waco taught federal law enforcement embarrassing – some would say painful – lessons.
Louis J. Freeh, who replaced fired-FBI director William Sessions after the Waco siege, told Congress in 1995 that Ruby Ridge was “a series of terribly flawed law enforcement operations with tragic consequences.”
“There was a trail of serious operational mistakes that went from the mountains of northern Idaho to FBI headquarters and back out to a federal courtroom in Idaho,” Freeh said in congressional testimony.
Freeh ended “rules of engagement” that allowed FBI agents to shoot on sight – rules that he said were inconsistent with the FBI’s deadly force policy. (That policy permits the use of deadly force only in the face of imminent death or serious physical injury to the officer or another person).
The FBI director also revamped the bureau’s “crisis response structure” and disciplined 12 FBI employees after concluding none had committed any crimes or intentional misconduct.
“Ruby Ridge has become synonymous with tragedy, given the deaths there of a decorated deputy U.S. marshal, a young boy, and a boy’s mother” the FBI director said. “It has also become synonymous with the exaggerated application of federal law enforcement. Both conclusions seem justified,” he said.
Wayne Manis, the FBI agent who took Weaver into custody after he surrendered, ending the 1992 standoff, said many details and facts surrounding Ruby Ridge have been distorted over the years to suit various antigovernment and racist agendas.
Weaver initially was arrested without incident by ATF agents and was released after promising a federal judge he would voluntarily appear at future court hearings. When he didn’t, another judge issued a bench warrant for Weaver, assigning deputy U.S. marshals to re-arrest him. When one of those deputy marshals was fatally shot, the case was turned over to the FBI.
If Weaver would have come down from the mountain and appeared in court, as he promised he would do, the entire Ruby Ridge legacy would have never been born, Manis said.
The FBI, while admitting some missteps, “still took a lot of criticism that I think was unfair,” said Manis, now retired and living in North Idaho.
Subsequent standoffs with antigovernment extremists – including the Montana Freeman in 1996 – would see more patience on the part of agents of the FBI and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
“The events of Ruby Ridge, while by no means entirely the fault of the government, did not put law enforcement in a good light,” said Potok, of the Southern Poverty Law Center.
“Although the tragedy did teach some important lessons, it was not until the bloodless resolution of the 1996 standoff with the Montana Freemen that American law enforcement seemed to fully absorb the notion that it is often better to proceed with tact and caution than overwhelming physical force,” he said.
His colleague, Beirich, agreed, saying law enforcement agencies have “learned to be careful with zealots.” She cited the 12-year-old continuing standoff in Texas with John Joe Gray.
Part of a growing legion of so-called “sovereign citizens,” Gray – like Weaver did in 1992 – refuses to acknowledge the authority of any government and continues to dare police to come and get him.
Gray and his family survive without electricity and modern plumbing on a 50-acre farm near Trinidad, Texas, about 70 miles southeast of Dallas. Armed associates help guard Gray on his property where a large garden, stream fish and goat herd support his family.
Unlike Weaver, whose bench warrant arrest was ordered by a federal judge, Gray faces state criminal charges and his arrest is an issue for the local elected sheriff. Grey was charged with assaulting a Texas state trooper on Christmas Eve 1999 and later jumped bail, refusing to show up in court, claiming he’s a sovereign citizen over whom the government has no control. Four elected sheriffs later, authorities are still waiting him out.
At another standoff in 2007 in New Hampshire, Weaver – viewed as folk hero in antigovernment and extremist ranks – showed up to voice his support for convicted tax protesters Ed and Elaine Brown. The pair, later arrested by federal authorities and now in prison, had voiced anti-Semitic and pro-militia views.
These days, Weaver doesn’t do interviews reflecting on Ruby Ridge, according to his daughter, Sara Weaver-Balter, who now lives in Kalispell, Mont. In an autographed copy of his book, “The Federal Siege at Ruby Ridge,” sold used on Amazon for 99 cents, Weaver inscribed, “Freedom at any cost!” He still sells the book at gun shows and survivalist expos.
Weaver’s daughter also declined comment about the long-term impacts of Ruby Ridge, saying she only wanted to talk about forgiveness, her conversion to Christianity and a book she’s selling.
Since Ruby Ridge, federal law enforcement agencies now work closer together, mostly in regional joint terrorism task forces. For them, extremists – as evidenced by the recent mass killing in Wisconsin – still represent a real concern. So-called sovereign citizens – like the Browns – who think the government has no control over them are now considered the No. 1 domestic terrorism threat by the FBI.
A ramped-up response to the threat posed by extremists came after the 1995 Oklahoma City federal building bombing that killed 168 people. It was carried out by Timothy McVeigh who said he was motivated by events at Ruby Ridge and Waco.
“What the U.S. government did at Waco and Ruby Ridge was dirty, and I gave dirty back to them at Oklahoma City,” McVeigh is quoted as saying in the book, “American Terrorist.”
The government’s response to such acts of deadly domestic terrorism has led to what some describe as a “militarization” of law enforcement at all levels, including federal agencies.
“For American extremists, the siege at Ruby Ridge symbolizes the ‘militarized police state,’” said Daryl Johnson, a former domestic terrorism analyst for ATF and the Department of Homeland Security.
Johnson is the author of a soon-to-be released book, “Right Wing Resurgence,” that addresses how, in his opinion, domestic extremist threats aren’t being taken seriously enough at the highest levels in the U.S. government. He owns a private consulting firm, DT Analytics, that monitors domestic extremist activity and provides specialized training to law enforcement.
The U.S. government, through its Department of Homeland Security in particular, Johnson said, “has unintentionally fostered, and even solidified, Orwellian conspiracies concerning an overzealous, oppressive federal government and its perceived willingness to kill to ensure citizen compliance.”
“In the minds of modern-day extremists, (Homeland Security) has enhanced the lethal capability of many under-funded, small-town police forces through its grant programs,” Johnson said.
Using federal grants, state and local law enforcement agencies have been able to buy expensive equipment and training that are “commonly associated with the military,” he said.
“Extremists view such a security build up as a continuation of the Ruby Ridge legacy,” Johnson said.
That legacy is a continuing drumbeat for extremists and white supremacists who recruit with the message of “big government versus the little guy” and “the government set me up,” Johnson said.
These extremist ideas continue as messages and even recruiting themes among various radical groups in the United States, he said.
In the past few weeks, various racist and white supremacy Web sites have mentioned the 20th anniversary, many calling Randy Weaver a hero.
“While many of us have lost loved ones in this war, Mr. Weaver goes down in history as one of our best,” said one comment posted on Stormfront, considered the largest Internet hate site.
“I know one White man that has tremendous respect for what the family did on Ruby Ridge,” the commenter said.
on August 21st, 2012 at 10:06 am
I am by no means a white supremacist or “sovereign” but I was outraged by both Ruby Ridge and Waco because it showed the federal agencies were willing to violate the constitutional rights of others and murder them as well. It is unfortunate that these events have become rallying points for ignorant extremists, but we can’t forget that the FBI acted in a manner that violated constitutional rights.
on August 21st, 2012 at 11:03 am
Which constitutional rights were violated at Ruby Ridge again?
on August 21st, 2012 at 1:05 pm
“Which constitutional rights were violated at Ruby Ridge again?”
That doesn’t require one to be a far-right extremist to answer: the right to have a reasonable police force, and the right not to be killed without trial and due process.
The key paragraph above is:
“Louis J. Freeh, who replaced fired-FBI director William Sessions after the Waco siege, told Congress in 1995 that Ruby Ridge was “a series of terribly flawed law enforcement operations with tragic consequences.””
Anything that can be described as a “terribly flawed” operation is a violation of the rights of all of us. The fact that we have limited sympathy with the victims of Ruby Ridge and Waco does not make these violations go away.
These operations were not “accidents”, they didn’t “just happen”. Nor were they the outcome of an unavoidable sequence of events. The authorities, to a greater or lesser extent, chose more violent, more confrontational actions when less aggressive options were available and viable.
What shocked people was that the victims were right-wing. The police had happily been using violence against any group considered “left” for decades, and continue to do so. And without any outcry from politicians, the media, or so-called ‘libertarians’.
on August 21st, 2012 at 3:18 pm
I do recall that Ruby Ridge appears to have been grossly mishandled, and it was not the first such incident, but it was the first of note against right-wing white people. I note that none of the left-wing/nonwhite groups being so mishandled ever occasioned a federal courthouse being blown up, to say nothing of the sanctimonious DARVO that has gone down in the decades since.
The Branch Daviidian incident seems rather to have been due to a response premised on misleading information instead of a deliberate overresponse, but that did not make the results less ghastly. Any time children or noncombatants may be involved, it’s necessary to be damn careful not to zig when you should zag, even if a cursory examination indicates zig s the proper response.
on August 21st, 2012 at 4:12 pm
What happened at Ruby Ridge happens to far more innocent individuals every year. The problem is that those individuals aren’t white, so the FBI and law enforcement don’t apologize or call it a tragedy.
If the Weavers had been black, the same people who carry their banner today would have been saying, “They should’ve done what the FBI told them to!”
on August 21st, 2012 at 4:56 pm
” The problem is that those individuals aren’t white, so the FBI and law enforcement don’t apologize or call it a tragedy. ”
You’ve got it right. At least mostly.
Recently, the Sioux got the Justice Department to review 50 deaths that may be linked to “counterintelligence” activities over the last 40 years. But there has been no serious investigation of the COINTELPRO activities that targeted the black community over the same period and must have been much much larger in scope.
A quote:
” Sioux leaders have compelled federal authorities to take a new look at the era’s ghastly events. The Pine Ridge Sioux have no congresspersons of their own, they number only about 20,000, and they cannot claim a U.S. president and attorney general among their ethnicity. But they have the courage to demand Truth of Power.
What’s wrong with Black America?”
http://blackagendareport.com/c.....99t-blacks
on August 21st, 2012 at 7:24 pm
Dreerrr-up, lookie here at what Ruslan’s got to say –
“Which constitutional rights were violated at Ruby Ridge again?”
….. having confused US constitution with the NKVD carte blanche killing manual, and thus tacitly approving of actions that would have earned Orders of the Red Banner in the beloved Stalinist Russia of his fantasies, he backtracks down…..
“What happened at Ruby Ridge happens to far more innocent individuals every year. The problem is that those individuals aren’t white, so the FBI and law enforcement don’t apologize or call it a tragedy.
If the Weavers had been black, the same people who carry their banner today would have been saying, “They should’ve done what the FBI told them to!””
….. and pulls the race card!! And what’s with “whites”,”blacks” and “non-whites” that you’ve got going there? Notice, when the situation calls, even HE starts making racial distinctions.
on August 22nd, 2012 at 8:25 am
The first responsibility of a parent is to protect their children. Keeping children (and arming them) in a cabin surrounded by armed Federal Agents for weeks to avoid being arrested and arraigned where bail most assuredly would have been granted is hardly the behavior of a responsible parent.
Whether the Feds were too quick to shoot, after weeks and weeks of this guy holding out, does not absolve Randy Weaver of putting his children in grave danger. The guy was an irresponsible idiot.
on August 22nd, 2012 at 9:06 am
That is true: both the Weavers and the Branch Davidians were rather using children as human shields. This does not excuse recklessness on the part of law enforcement, but it does indicate the adults were not quite innocent victims.
Meanwhile, Solomon, you have not chosen a very apt name for yourself. For now, that is my sole comment on you.
on August 22nd, 2012 at 9:15 am
Hey Solomon, I couldn’t help noticing you didn’t answer the question. What constitutional rights of Randy Weaver were violated?
And last time I checked, any time someone brings up discrimination against non-white people in America they’re accused of pulling the “race card.”
Derp indeed.
on August 22nd, 2012 at 9:47 am
Are the folks who are so concerned about the “consitutional rights” violated at Ruby Ridge and Waco also concerned about the murderous raid staged on the Black Panther Party by the Chicago Police Department?
on August 22nd, 2012 at 10:02 am
Let’s not forget, and I hope the police never forget, that most often in circumstances like this people are reacting out of fear. Fear is not an attempt to harm. Fear is an attempt at self preservation that may result in harmful acts. Police should strive to recognize that one of the tools of their work is fear, that even “non-violent” detain and hold tactics are deeply traumatic for many people, and that unfortunately, this makes their actions oppressive and results in violence.
on August 22nd, 2012 at 12:01 pm
It takes a lot of double-jointed Utilitarian ethical sophistry, relying on self-serving notions about causality, to make the law enforcement officials the villains of these events, and Weaver and Koresh the heroes.
If I tie someone up and throw them into the middle of a busy highway, who’s responsible if they’re killed, me or the driver of the vehicle that actually hits them?
Weaver may not have literally fired the gun that killed his wife, but he put it in the FBI agent’s hands and put his wife in the line of fire. He caused her death.
on August 22nd, 2012 at 5:15 pm
“It takes a lot of double-jointed Utilitarian ethical sophistry, relying on self-serving notions about causality, to make the law enforcement officials the villains of these events, and Weaver and Koresh the heroes.”
Don’t let you lack of sympathy with the causes of Weaver and Koresh blind you to the issue of civil rights (mine and yours, and theirs).
At Ruby Ridge the agents were apparently operating with rules of engagement (“shoot on sight”) that were in direct violation of existing FBI policy. This is not the opinion of a white nationalist, but the opinion of the next Director of the FBI.
It is not necessary to see Weaver and Koresh as heroes, or even as innocent. We all have the right of a fair trial, the right of due process, and the right to be free from unreasonable law enforcement violence. And we have these rights even if we are accused of serious crimes.
The law enforcement actions at Waco and Ruby Ridge are similar in viewpoint or motive as the much more numerous cases of violence against civil rights demonstrators, pacifists and peace activists, or anyone designated as “left wing”. To defend the one is to defend the others.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 8:27 am
As far as I know the FBI ROE said “shoot at any armed adult male.” That sniper was aiming at Randy(who was armed) when his shot went through the door, killing Vicky Weaver. Vicky was not visible from his point of view.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 9:05 am
“The law enforcement actions at Waco and Ruby Ridge are similar in viewpoint or motive as the much more numerous cases of violence against civil rights demonstrators, pacifists and peace activists, or anyone designated as ‘left wing’.”
This is a nice example of sophistry, Dan. Sure, a heavily armed bail-jumping thug is precisely equivalent to unarmed women and children marching peacefully for redress of grievances. I stand corrected.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 11:01 am
The siege at the Branch Davidian compound outside Waco, Texas was far worse in terms of a flawed and over-aggressive law enforcement response than was Ruby Ridge. Janet Reno and various central government alphabits agencies burned to the ground a building in the compound where women and children perished in the resulting fire. I suppose it was roughly analogous to what we used to hear during the Vietnam (whatever it was, because it wasn’t a) War, “We had to destroy the village to save it.” I took part in an OWS demonstration against one of the large nationwide banks last October in Denver and I saw firsthand the militarization of our nation’s police forces. Lest you disbelieve me, I urge you to attend a local event at which a protest has been announced. Exercising one’s pesky, old First Amendment rights to free speech, assembly and petitioning our government for redress of grievance have become occasions for local police departments to flex their muscles against largely peaceful, albeit extremely loud protesters.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 12:08 pm
This story is mostly correct, but it leaves out some important details. One, the original “weapons” charge was that Weaver sold two sawed-off shotgun to a federal informant. Accounts differ as to how the shotguns ended up being shortened. Second, and what is part of the official record (http://www.justice.gov/opr/rea.....ver_39.pdf) is that a probation officer told Weaver to appear on March 20 when a trial date had been set for February 19. The bench warrant was issued on March 14, which set the events in motion that led to the deaths of a woman holding a baby and a teenage boy.
Ruby Ridge was a travesty. Weaver’s views were definitely “out there,” but nothing he did justified the government’s actions. The government seemed hell-bent on proving itself as vicious and tyrannical as the worst delusions of the paranoid Weavers. Had their views been left-wing extremist rather than right-wing, say a Black nationalist or a radical environmentalist, I suspect SPLC and the press would treat the story differently.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 12:14 pm
Randy Weaver was not a white supremacist. The FBI knew that but tried to force him to help infiltrate an Aryan Nation group by that an acquaintance was alleged to be in. SPLC is an extremist organization that doesnt bother to get its facts straight and or lies to prove their extremist viewpoints. When people on the right do it it is called hate speech. Why then should these lies not also be hate speech? There is a lot of name calling, ignorance, and down right stupidity from most of the left wing responses to this article. Neither Koresh nor Weaver used children as human shields. That is just idiot hate mongering. The 4th and 5th were the constitutional amendments violated by the FBI (and arguably the first amendment also) and the last i looked a “heavily armed bail jumping thug” (more hate speech) has the same rights as woman and children do to protest.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 12:15 pm
Randy Weaver had numerous opportunities to exercise his rights, if he had chosen to appear in court as ordered as a condition of his pre-trial release. He chose not to appear for trial, thus instituting a nearly year-long effort by the Marshal’s Service to get him to surrender. A team of Deputy Marshals set up a surveillance operation, their location was compromised by a barking dog, and the Weavers responded with gunfire, killing a Deputy US Marshal who was attempting to execute the lawful order of a Federal Circuit Judge. The death of the Marshal put the case under the jurisdiction of the FBI.
Bad decisions were made, none of which would have occurred if Weaver had remembered that the Constitution starts with “We, the People,” and not, “It’s all about me.”
Skilled protestors love nothing more than a heavy handed police response, or something resembling that can be spun for the media, to reinforce their self-assigned role as “victims of oppression.” People also mistakenly believe that because a demonstration is “peaceful” that it is legal, and that just isn’t so. Peacefully occupying or blocking property for which a person or group has no legal standing to do essentially requires a response, and that response never looks pretty from the outside.
At Waco, the compound residents, could have left at any time, and IIRC several did. Howell had designed and built countermeasures to withstand attempts at breaching, and obviously they worked. To this day it is SOP to use an armored vehicle with a ram to introduce chemical irritants into a structure to try to flush barricaded suspects out and there is always the risk of fire. But like Weaver, all of the Howellians had the option of walking out the door(s) and availing themselves of due process. Well, maybe not all of them; the children being dependent on their parents to make good decisions and protect them from harm.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 12:40 pm
When the government shows up at YOUR house and kills your wife and child because of a BS law YOU have violated THEN you can speak to the subject. Their is nothing in our Constitution that allows the government to kill people because they possess a firearm. OK……..the guy had firearms that the government deemed illegal, who did he shoot with them before his wife and son were murdered??? Possessing these arms was not a vilent crime, and in no way should the government have had a deadly response. Period. Commie it up as you will, you know I’m right about that.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 1:27 pm
Steve, possessing a short barreled weapon may not be a ‘vilent’ crime (nice spelling). But shooting a US Marshall certainly is.
Nothing ‘commie’ about that, friend.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Ruslan is absolutely right. A good litmus test on any event like this would be to change the race and see how you perceive it then.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 1:54 pm
The killer of Weaver’s son is still free; Janet Reno is still free; both should have received either a death penalty or life in prison.
Maybe Ruby Ridge and Waco were just practice for Iraq and Afghanistan?
No charges were filed against those who used a flame thrower tank against the compound; guess what, the start flames !
on August 23rd, 2012 at 2:49 pm
Charles,
I would LOVE for you to provide evidence that a ‘flame thrower tank’ was used against the Branch Davidian compound. Everyone agrees that it was likely a smoke grenade or a ‘flash-bang’ that ignited the fire in Waco.
A similar event occurred in the 1980 Iranian Embassy Siege in London, when a flash-bang ignited some curtains during the storming of the compound. These things happen.
It doesn’t make the government murderers. No matter how much you wish that were the case.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 5:11 pm
My understanding is that when tear gas was thrown in, some open flame or incendiary ignited it, and gunpowder or other inflammables went up with it. It should have been foreseen, but the flamethrower is a dirty story.
on August 23rd, 2012 at 7:45 pm
This is the most shameful act by the US Government on US soil. The murder of Mrs Weaver and child is a lasting message of how crooked and mislead the federal government is. They created the situation set Randy Weaver up. He won in court $1,000,00 you seem to leave that out!
I will never trust the US Government for anything.
Sincerely,
Matthew Jerabek
US Army Veteran
Eagle Scout
Small Business owner
US Citizen
on August 23rd, 2012 at 11:06 pm
“When the government shows up at YOUR house and kills your wife and child because of a BS law YOU have violated THEN you can speak to the subject.”
You may think it is BS that he was arrested for selling illegally modified weapons(shotguns), but it is a law and he did violate it willingly. He could have showed up in court.
“Their is nothing in our Constitution that allows the government to kill people because they possess a firearm. ”
Nobody was killed for possessing a firearm. When he did not appear in court, the FBI exercised caution in approaching his land since they knew he had an apocalyptic worldview and was allegedly preparing for a war with the government.
“OK……..the guy had firearms that the government deemed illegal, who did he shoot with them before his wife and son were murdered???”
It doesn’t matter that he didn’t shoot anyone with the illegal arms. His son shot somebody(and FBI agent) and he was shot in return. Again, we wouldn’t be having this conversation if this whole thing had occurred in some ghetto.
” Possessing these arms was not a vilent crime, and in no way should the government have had a deadly response. Period.”
Randy Weaver declared war on the government. They gave it to him. He has nobody to blame but himself.
As to the question of whether Weaver was a white supremacist, I think it’s pretty clear that he was, or at least his wife was. They had attended Aryan Nations rallies before, and that was where the agent first made contact with him.
on August 24th, 2012 at 5:33 am
Drastic tactics even more out of proportion to the context are now occurring with the Occupy Movement. The tendency of the US government to overreact is becoming increasingly Un-American.
on August 24th, 2012 at 10:11 am
In reference to comments above, including @Matt Jerabek. Click on The Spokesman-Review link at the topic on blog item and you’ll see all details, including the $$ settlement with the Weavers:
timeline here: http://www.spokesman.com/timel.....uby-ridge/
sidebar here: http://www.spokesman.com/stori.....aftermath/
photos here:
http://www.spokesman.com/pictu.....-standoff/
on August 24th, 2012 at 10:11 am
“This is the most shameful act by the US Government on US soil.”
Really? Not slavery? Not the genocide of Native Americans? Not segregation? Not the internment of the Japanese? Not COINTELPRO? Not the murder of Fred Hampton?
. “The murder of Mrs Weaver and child is a lasting message of how crooked and mislead the federal government is.”
You’re obviously confused. Weaver’s “child”(Sam I believe) shot an FBI agent. He got shot in return. Big surprise there. Vicky Weaver was concealed by a door she was holding open when she was shot through said door. The sniper was firing at Randy Weaver as per the rules of engagement.
” They created the situation set Randy Weaver up.”
Weaver made a conscious choice to modify those weapons, and then he could have either done what the feds wanted(rat on the Aryan Nations) or taken his charge in court(where he might have been able to get it dismissed or at least plead it down).
Sincerely,
Ruslan Amirkhanov
Ottoman Imperial Army Veteran
Choreographer
Superhero
Bear trainer
Generally awesome guy.
on August 24th, 2012 at 11:07 am
I’m going full lotus on what Ruslan said.
on August 24th, 2012 at 11:31 am
Ottoman Imperial Army veteran! Great-Granddad! Someone *said* you were still around!
on August 24th, 2012 at 12:12 pm
Furthermore, Ruslan, my sister has said if we ever need a bear trainer, we are to contact you right away (cat training is my department. The cats have trained me very well).
on August 24th, 2012 at 3:50 pm
The Friday deadline looms, and of course, there is still the chance of an event occurring which would upset the regular awards. However, I will award the following now:
In view of his meritorious service with the Ottoman Imperial Army, a gross of hardmilled sugar cubes to Ruslan, so he can drink his coffee or tea through them while he tames bears.
A dozen of the same to Aron, so he can see what a difference the right sugar cubes make to the endeavour.
To Aadila, a rock candy stiletto, in token of appreciation for her grasping that this is the only way you can be sweet to trolls.
Notice to Coral Sea that I have dampened the rather strange carrot color my hair weathered to, so, if she chooses, she can claim the now-vacant tiitle of The Red Scare.
on August 24th, 2012 at 6:35 pm
And now the sixth hour has been struck
like the head from off the beheaded…
Lots of promise this week.
A big birthday cake with undersea designs applied in coral-tinted frosting to Coral Sea, of course. Presumably, the gentlemen heretofor mentioned are enjoying their hard-milled sugar cubes, or at least the practiced Ruslan is, and I trust Aron won’t get any of them up his nostrils before he learns the hang of it.
Some Basic Stiletto courses for Aadila so she can learn to properly ghetto-rip trolls with that rock candy dagger before the coming week rolls round.
More later. Proofing galleys.
on August 27th, 2012 at 8:26 am
This isn’t too thorough, because I’m still working on galleys, but Annie gets the special Sawdust Swastinker award. It’s flammable, so she can light her own fire with it.
Marc de Rhodes gets his officer’s commision. He is now officially Major Astard.
La Americana gets a big packet of individually wrapped processed American cheese slices..
For want of time, I have left a basket of DARVO oral hygiene kits in the lobby for all claimants. You know: Fels Naptha toothpaste, Clorox mouthwash, and the patented DARVO toothbrush, a toilet brush downsized enough to fit inside racist potty mouths. Park Motok, besides these, has been awarded a big bottle of Clorox Shampoo and Body Wash, so for the first time in his life, he can feel really white. If he’s still not white enough, there’s a gift certifcate to Sherwin Williams.
As Ruslan is doubtless still working on that gross of hard-milled sugar cubes, I shan’t bestow more, but we acknowledge him our Iron Man.
Aadila, a big flashlight, for realizing there’s only one way to be sweet to trolls.
Aron, in case you are not quite agile with your trial-size hard-milled sugar cubes, I pass on to you my never-used Nose Pickayune, in the event of mistakes.
Erika, a diamond-and-platinum Sharkie. Happy birthday, Coral Sea. And a big welcome back to Kiwiwriter. May we see you some moa.
There are many more of the deserving out there, whom I can’t get round to yet. I must go back to rowing the galley.
With love,
Your humble galley slave,
Rey Mohammed
on August 27th, 2012 at 8:58 am
Rey,
Thank you very much for the Nose Picayune. As you can imagine, I’ve had a stick of rock candy stuck up my nose all weekend. How it got there is anyone’s guess, but it was certainly unpleasant.
I would like to bestow yet another award for Ruslan, that of the Twenty Foot Tall Stakhanovite-Mobile, for his exemplary Stalinist (I kid!) behavior.
Truly he is the greatest example of the New Soviet Man.
on August 27th, 2012 at 10:00 am
Rey, why so many phallic prizes? Don’t you think you are contributing to the Washington Monument syndrome? Perhaps you could bestow the Kite of Hope or the Peach Bottom Radiance prize once in a while.
on August 27th, 2012 at 10:06 am
“Park Motok, besides these, has been awarded a big bottle of Clorox Shampoo and Body Wash, so for the first time in his life, he can feel really white. If he’s still not white enough, there’s a gift certifcate to Sherwin Williams.”
Ha ha ha!
on August 27th, 2012 at 10:19 am
Aron, I thought of a Stakhanovite award for our Hero Overime Miracle-Working Iron Man myself, but was afraid of setting off the whack jobs.
Keep working with that Nose Pickayune. You’ll get that rock candy out of there one day.
on August 27th, 2012 at 10:54 am
Aadila, I am not into Freudian symbolism, but am aware of it. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
on August 27th, 2012 at 11:00 am
Suit yourself, Rey. But you must admit it’s pretty exciting to say “Peach Bottom” anything.
on August 27th, 2012 at 7:05 pm
Reynardine, thanks for the Moa!
on August 28th, 2012 at 2:46 pm
Aadila, while the “Find Radiant Joy in Peach Bottom” slogan was Reynardine’s idea, it was my idea to put it on a bikini. Therefore, I feel comfortable with being able to awardi you a “Find Radiant Joy in Peach Bottom” Award. Whether it will be in the form of a bikini is up to you :)
on August 28th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
Oh heavens! I could never wear something like that.
I should have known Reynardine was behind this, and you, of course, egging him on. You’re going to get the lot of us in trouble.
on August 28th, 2012 at 4:41 pm
If that is too much radiant joy for you, you could select a t-shirt and matching shorts or the brand new Peach Bottom Award statuete which I envision as a small model of the Big Peach in Gaffney, South Carolina :)
on September 6th, 2012 at 8:49 am
Actually, Aadila, it is I who may be egged on. Someone has offered me a hen.
on September 6th, 2012 at 11:58 am
That’s something to brood over.
on September 7th, 2012 at 8:02 am
Since I have a rooster, I could wind up publishing my very own chick tracts.
on February 7th, 2013 at 8:23 pm
Ruslan,
What you are leaving out is the FBI snitch approached Weaver several times from 1986-1989 prodding him to sell him sawed off shotguns before he finally gave in; Weaver didn’t approach him – it was pure entrapment. Weaver was never a member of the Aryan nation by the way.
Next, the reason Weaver holed up is because the judge INCORRECTLY told him that if Weaver pleads innocent and loses, then he loses his house and property because he had used them to bond out of jail.
He only missed his court date because the improper date was given to him on his appearance notice.
Here’s a man who believes the government is out to get him so he and his family move to the mountains to get away from it all. What happens? The government substantiates his fears with entrapment and then a shady offer to drop the charges if he’ll snitch. He says no.
His son didn’t shoot the US Marshal, Kevin Williams “supposedly” did. I say supposedly because during the trial a bullet was found in the agent’s backpack leading many to believe he was killed by friendly fire.
The US Marshals at no point identified themselves as such that morning – Weaver, his son and Williams stumbled upon six men in full camoflauge with their faces completely covered and carrying automatic weapons. They enticed the dog down the path by throwing rocks and then they shot the dog.
Tell me what your reaction would be to this? Six armed men come onto your property and kill your dog…they then shoot the boy – IN THE BACK – as he runs to the house. The Marshals run to a neighbor and place a 911 call claiming their cohorts are PINNED DOWN by the Weavers when in fact, the Weavers ran back to the house and had only fired back after the dog was shot.
The FBI immediately sends in the HRT with it’s best snipers from DC. During the plane ride they draw up their own rules of engagement above and beyond the legal framework they work under. These rules include shooting any male on site outside of the house.
The next day, Weaver, his 16 yr old daughter Sara and Williams leave the house because they hear noises. Weaver said he thought finally someone had come to talk to him about the mess – the Marshals to this point have LIED to the FBI about killing the boy by the way -. When they see no one, Weaver approaches the shed where his sons dead body lays and his promptly shot in the shoulder by the sniper, Lon Horiuchi. As they run back to the house and scramble in the door, Horiuchi, an expert marksman, blows Vicki Weavers head off while she holds her 10 month old daughter.
The FBI tried covering it up claiming Weaver had been shooting at helicopters…
In the end, Weaver was found innocent of everything the FBI lied about him, Williams was found innocent (also leading many to believe the Marshal was killed by friendly fire, after all, who kills a Marshal and walks away?). They then sued the US Government and settled out of court for millions of dollars. One DOJ official, anonymously said that if the Weavers had pressed forward with the lawsuit they could have easily come away with $200 million.
You wonderful heavy handed government killed his family because they didn’t like the fact that he was a little weird in his beliefs and didn’t want to conform to society group think.