Thank you for all your hard work keeping hate at bay……

These guys – likely unintentionally – came up with what might be the perfect name – I definitely FEAR idiots with guns and bombs who are out to kill people indiscriminately. Its not as good as calling their secret anti-government militia the Covert Group, but its appropriate.

Now lets see – anyone now disbelieve the report that there were dangerous militias trying to recruit people in the military?

Why has the case been moved to a civilian court? Why are they not charged with treason at a court-Marshall? Why have they not been declared enemy combatants and moved to Guantanamo Bay?

This seems to be a very rare case of a genuine home-grown terror cell that was not created and run by the FBI.

They seem to have been actually willing and capable of carrying out violent acts, and had already begun to do so. Why such a low-key response?

I don’t doubt that there are plenty of groups out there who are hard at work trying to discredit this story. Even if this particular group is apolitical, surely it hurts the public image of militia groups in general.

“Why are they not charged with treason at a court-Marshall? ”

All good questions…but thanks to George W. Bush we don’t have the right of habeus corpus in the United States any more, so there is no guarantee these people or anyone else will ever be charged while being held indefinitely in our country, much less granted access to a lawer or any other so-called “right”.

Habeus Corpus R.I.P (1215-2006)

Dan, being tried for murder in Georgia is not, to my understanding, a nice experience, and under the doctrine of two sovereigns, if they manage to walk in Georgia, the feds can still try them without invoking double jeopardy. There are probably a whole bunch of sovereigns who’d like to get their mitts on these guys. Washington State is not going to be amused by somebody playing Snow White’s stepmother with their whole crop. If they have not done enough to be tried in a U.S. District Court for treason, they’ve sure met the test for sedition. Even if they are eventually acquitted of every charge every different sovereign brings aganst them, they’ll be standing trial from now until the hour of their deaths. Oklahoma still has charges pending against Ted Bundy.

Yes, why did the military not court martial these men?

Gawker has reported that Isaac Aguigui was a page at the 2008 Republican National Convention. A news photograph from ’08 appears to match the current mug-shot.

^[1]

There wouldn’t normally be a courts-martial since the murders took place off the installation. It’s rare the military doesn’t defer to the civilian courts in those cases.

As usual, this confederacy of dunces was exploded when one of its members ratted out his buddies. There is no honor among thieves and junior Fascists.

Poisoning fruit crops and blowing up a dam…yes, that would certainly win friends and influence people.

Dan, the reason they are not facing charges of treason is that the Constitution is fairly specific on defining treason: you have to aid an enemy nation in time of war. Unless they can prove these guys were working for a foreign power that was at war with us, they can’t nail them for treason.

Note that Richard Reid and Walker Lindh were NOT charged with treason, even though they tried to cause chaos for Al Qaeda, because Al Qaeda is not a nation, it’s a terrorist organization, so they’re considered a criminal group, like pirates.

Why they’re not getting court-martialed is interesting…the military has ceded jurisdiction in the past in criminal cases. One that comes to mind is the Walker spy case of 1985. John Walker’s son Michael was photographing secret documents on his aircraft carriers, USS Nimitz and USS America, and giving them to his father, who in turn sold them to the Soviet Union.

When the Walker gang was nailed, Michael was taken into custody on his carrier, USS America, by Naval Investigative Service, but was removed from the carrier by Marine escort, and flown to the United States, where he was turned over to the FBI. He stood trial in a civilian court for his espionage crimes, and went to prison. He did NOT face Uniform Code of Military Justice.

I’m really not sure how civilian jurisdiction applies in situations like this…particularly as one of the people killed seems to have been military. It may be that the fact that they were plotting the overthrow of the country resulted in the law enforcement agencies and the military chain of command deciding that the civilian charges outweighed UCMJ. They were planning an attack on the country, not robbing the PX of liquor.

This incident, however, is going to be a nightmare for the idiots’ first sergeant, platoon leader, company commander, executive officer, and commanding officer. How’d they miss these guys, hey?

One of the good things about having them tried in Georgia is that I am assuming that more information about who these guys are and what the heck their motivations were will come out.

This sort of thing is very disconcerting, and I would suspect that, given the crazy rhetoric that is given air time just now, there are probably many more like them, with addled minds, crazy ideas, and access to guns, bombs, and who knows what else?

As Erika said, it’s too bad that Janet Neapolitano allowed herself to be bullied by Right wingers into removing discussion of malcontents coming from within the armed forces as a having serious potential to wreak havoc in that report on terrorism. Of course, I’m sure that if any comments are made about these guys by the Rightests at all, it will be to paint their activities as “isolated incidents.” Isolated incidents — but there is definitely a thread that ties many of these scary people together.

If the military court martial tries someone for a serious crime, that means the military has to foot the bill for incarcerating them. This is a colossal waste of money, but unlike the Pentagons other many colossal wastes of money, this one gives them no benefit in return. This is why, for example, if you want to commit a lot of minor felonies(drug possession, dealing, unauthorized weapon possession), I suggest you do it in the army.

However, we should point out that these men had a excellent point and reflect the idea that the government isn’t a government of the people anymore. Even if the way they wanted to change it might have been questionable at best, you can’t row a boat with out creating a ripple. You can call it hate or whatever, this country needs a change!!!!

Thanks for stopping associating these guys with “Anarchism”! There’s absolutely no evidence any of these guys are Anarchists other than some obscure tattoo, which is ridiculous. Anarchists are peaceful Leftwingers who abhor war–I’ve never heard of them joining the military, or forming a militia or trying to poison things or kill the POTUS, etc. It must be a mistake on the case of the Prosecutor? In any case, I will have to see the evidence presented that they have ANYTHING to do with “Anarchism”! Noam Chomsky & Emma Goldman are Anarchists, can you imagine them being involved in something like this? LOL! Thanks for your Great Work, SPLC & Mark Potok!
^[2]

It’s not surprising that Wikipedia is the first and last stop for SawdustAnnie.

Sigh…do you suppose it ever read Noam Chomsky?

As a long time member of the SPLC, I know full well that you were warning of such things as the infiltration of our military by white supremacists and militia members.

As usual, your prescient predictions were spot on.

Bless you all for your vigilance and hard work.

In the first sentence: “Four members of secret militia group.” I’m sure you meant “Four members of a secret militia group.” ;^)

Loving the FEAR name, guys. Very Keystone Kops.

At least they didn’t choose a name like SPECTRE or The Guild of Calmitous Intent.

And NOFEAR, I think you may have come to the wrong website. The forum you’re looking for is Stormfront, dear.

Treason could also be open insurrection by an entity within the United States (as in the Civil War), but it must be active, not merely planned, and the Constitutional requirement is that there either be two witnesses to the same act, or that the accused confess it in open court. That is why treason charges are rarely brought. Sedition and related charges have only ordinary standards of proof.

Thank you, Eric Grahamer.

NOFEAR, your last line is universally agreed to be correct. The Occupy protesters sense it and educated economists know it. Reasonable people can wish for a European style Socialist state, but I personally believe the Tea Party, sans Religious Fanatics, have the best formula: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Erika and every other ignorant person who says militias are dangerous are stupid…….they don’t plan on hurting innocent people…….yet you don’t fear the government or cops who motto is shoot now ask later……soon you won’t be able to but a gun and they will have shake downs at every corner…….people need to open up and see what is happening

Dammit, Mike, take Thorazine, not Jonestown Koolaid.

Mike, it’s pretty reasonable to point out that the government hasn’t really been doing a good job of looking out for people’s rights. But I don’t see why these militia movements would do any better.

Actually, if I knew of a bunch of damn poison apples, I’d probably advocate blowing them up.

Sandy Berman said: “The opposite of truth”…

The plotters were left wing anarchists. Anarchists don’t follow a central ideology because….. they are anarchists. All anarchists are left wing.

The also were not white supremacists either. The leader was Chamarro from Guam and would never be a allowed to join a WS group. Some of you guys are pretty clueless.

Mike tells us that militias aren’t dangerous because “they don’t plan on hurting innocent people.”

And, as we know, every plan ever made in human history that involved weaponry and violence went off perfectly, with no damage to civilian targets, no civilian or innocent casualties, and no mistakes by the planners.

Mike, tell us again about the great military achievements of Crassus, Philip II, John Pope, Ambrose T. Burnside, Johnny Hamilton, Semyon Budyenny, Archibald Percival, Maurice Gamelin, Robert Nivelle, William Calley, Oskar Dirlewanger, Masanobu Tsuji, Stanislaw Kaminski, and Timothy McVeigh…and how their plans worked out.

Also, even William Pierce admits that innocents will die in the great rebellions the neo-Fascists dream of. Yes, he does! In “The Turner Diaries,” he refers to mistakes being made and millions of innocents dying.

So don’t tell me that militias “don’t plan on hurting innocent people.” You’ve been watching too many war movies, in which only the heavy and the second lead get killed.

“No battle plan survives its first contact with the enemy.” — attributed to Clausewitz.

“Sandy Berman said: “The opposite of truth”…

The plotters were left wing anarchists. Anarchists don’t follow a central ideology because….. they are anarchists. All anarchists are left wing.”

No, they were not “left-wing anarchists”, and there doesn’t seem to be any proof that they were even anarchists at all, save for their tattoos which were said to resemble and anarchy sign. A pentagram resembles an anarchy sign, and the pentagram is used by Satanists. This doesn’t mean Satanists are anarchists.

Also, how can you claim that anarchists don’t follow a central ideology and then immediately after claim that all anarchists are left wing? Oh wait, I know how…ignorance!

@Kiwiwriter

I would disagree that William Pierce considered the slaughter of innocents as “mistakes.” He was a man who held great contempt even for his “white” people. Not surprising seeing as how he quit his job to live off of hard-working though severely misguided people.

Ruslan –

I respectfully submit that pentagrams or pentacles are not exclusively satanic. They have been used by many groups, including the Masons and, of course, Wiccans and other pagans. Please don’t perpetuate the myth that anyone (or any place) sporting a pentagram is a satanist. (And, of course, satanists are basically just highly disaffected Christians — or followers of Ayn Rand. See Bruce Wilson’s latest posts on talk2action.org for the use of Rand’s books by that paragon of lunacy, Anton LaVey, to create the “Satanic Bible.”)

Wiccans and other pagans are NOT satanists! We have enough trouble rebutting this erroneous concept without having a man of your stature blurring the lines.

I second Coral Sea herein. The Wiccan pentagram is set on two points, so you can inscribe a human figure, standing akimbo, within its points (if a star) or its angles (if a pentagon). The Satanist pentagram is customarily inverted- on one point- and may have a goat’s head inscribed (goats seem to have that reputation because of their strange pupils). The Masonic star also stands on one point, but, despite hysterical claptrap, has nothing to do with Satanism.

Thanks, Coral Sea, for the information connecting Rand, La Vey, and by implication, Friedman. It’s like finding out the first hobos really came from Hoboken and he-snakes are really forked more places than their tongues.

Kiwi,

I’ve gotta take a little disagreement with you. Semyon Budyonny WAS a great military leader.

It’s just that Pi?sudski and Sikorski were better :D

I was just picking one group that tends to wear pentagrams. “All anarchists are Wiccans” wouldn’t have the same effect.

But Rokossovsky was the best!

And Tukhachevsky was even better! Nothing like commanding an invasion hundreds of miles from the front, while luxuriating in your own private train! xD

Not qualified at all on matters military. One of my favorite lines, though, was ascribed to Kutuzov, and it applies to my advancing years, even though I might have to alter the adjective a little:

Ty seriy
a ya sedoi.

(Sorry kirilitsa not available)

Is that true about he-snakes? Eeewww.

Yeah, Aadila, it is.

It appears Georgia is seeking the death penalty against Aguigui.

What will more killing solve?

Sam, if only the Tea Party meant Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness for everyone……..

And on the Pagan/Wiccan thread, a pentacle or pentagram on one point can also signify a second degree Gardnerian.

“Kiwi,

I’ve gotta take a little disagreement with you. Semyon Budyonny WAS a great military leader.

It’s just that Pi?sudski and Sikorski were better :D”

Aron, I would point out that Budyenny did well in the Russian Civil War with his cavalry, but failed pretty disastrously in the defense of Kiev in 1941, which is what I graded him on.

I also left out two other poor generals: Neil Ritchie and Rodolfo Graziani.

Rokossovsky was a superb general, and he was part-Polish. I believe he made Marshal while still under a temporarily suspended sentence of death from the Stalinist purges. Not well-known in the West.

My favorite WW2 generals and other leaders are Lucian Truscott, Guy Simonds, Bill Slim, Richard O’Connor, Tomoyuki Yamashita, Robert Eichelberger, Matthew Ridgway, Jim Gavin, Bert Hoffmeister, Lord Lovat, Pete Quesada, Keith Park, Andrew Cunningham, Raizo Tanaka, Willis “Ching Chong” Lee, Ray Spruance, Alphonse Juin, Fridolin Von Senger, Tadamichi Kuribayashi, Joseph Stilwell, Leslie Moorehead, and Keith Park.

“@Kiwiwriter

I would disagree that William Pierce considered the slaughter of innocents as “mistakes.” He was a man who held great contempt even for his “white” people. Not surprising seeing as how he quit his job to live off of hard-working though severely misguided people.”

Ruslan,you’re absolutely right, and I’m not disagreeing with you.

In the course of studying neo-Nazis, I stumbled on the life and times of Milton Kleim, who used to claim the title of the “net’s Number One Nazi,” until he decided to chuck it all with some public posts, which I found on the NizKor website. In the posts, he quoted from Dr. Pierce’s magnum opus, and I was nauseated by some of his output, including this one:

“”Certainly, we must have made some mistakes today — mistaken identities, wrong addresses, false accusations — but once the executions began there was no admitting to the possibility of mistakes. We deliberately created the image of inexorability in the public mind.” (TTD, Chapter 23)”

Pierce also wrote:

“…{T}here is no way we can destroy the System without hurting many thousands of innocent people — no way.” (TTD, Chapter 6)

That’s what I meant when he referred to “making mistakes.” And his attitude to the situation, as you rightly point out, was contemptuous, and shrugging. I was struck by that and appalled by it.

I read in the Intelligence Report, the interview with Von Brunn’s son, and the elder Von Brunn, who shot up the Holocaust Museum in Washington, had the same attitude. He talked about nuking Washington, even though that would kill his son, who lived in Annapolis.

The cavalier attitude of these people towards killing other human beings is repulsive. They have no respect for any other human being on earth…which makes me believe that they don’t respect themselves…you can’t respect others if you don’t respect yourself, it seems to me.

Narcissism is strongly tied with self-hatred, I have read. I have also read that what these people really want is not to bring the Rapture or Utopia…but to make everyone else as miserable as they are, and I think there’s some validity to that idea.

Ultimately, Hitler did turn on his own people…as the war ground to its finish, he showed contempt for them, ordering the destruction of the Reich’s power plants, water supplies, railroads, and so on, so that the Germans he’d led for 12 years would live in a desert. Told that such a move would have horrible results, he just sneered that the German people were not worthy of his greatness. They had betrayed him.

I wonder if the militia leaders share that same narcissism?

Kiwi, you are right about all of it. It’s the trait of malignant narcissist to regard other people as objects, but first they have learned to regard themselves as objects, which must be magnified and shined to a perfect brilliance in the pupils of these others’ eyes. That is what distinguishes the malignant narcissist from the pure sociopath or psychopath, who simply fulfills every impulse wthout inhibition, empathy, or ruth (an old word for foreseeing the consequences of one’s deeds and regretting the probable consequences towards others in advance, so as to refrain). Those are in many cases inborn; they’re “missing a chip”. The malignant narcissst has learned: learned that how he (or she) looks in the eyes of others determines whether he gets a lick of ice cream or a licking.. Therefore, he must be “seen” properly; he must have enough power to ensure that others do, and that those who don’t are punished/destroyed. In the worst cases, it can co-exist with psychopathy and Machiavellianism: the notorious “dark triad”.

Ruslan, some time back, you questioned whether “totalitarianism” is a real construct. Maybe not politically, but psychologically, it is. To paraphrase Earnest Hemingway: The authoritarian walks into the bathroom, pulls a gun onhimself, and orders what move he is to make. The totalitarian walks into the confessional, pulls a gun on himself, and says, “Repent all your bad thoughts about me!”

“Ruslan,you’re absolutely right, and I’m not disagreeing with you.”

It’s a good thing you said that. I read somewhere that somebody once disagreed with Ruslan only to end up cutting off his own nose whilst taking a shave. This episode became the little known factual inspiration for Gogol’s short story “The Nose.”

Actually, Aadila, the character iin that story was Rick Scott, and it wasn’t his nose.

Kiwi, you’ve found that exotic characters won’t translate into this format; they become question marks. Even if I’d had the right keyboard, that Kutuzov quote would not have entered properly.

Curiously enough, Reynardine, I have found no trouble deciphering the ideas of the many exotic characters who find their way to this forum. Whether or not I understand any of them is another matter.

Reynardine, fascinating about narcissism…I have run into at least one borderline narcissist personality in my lifetime, and they can be quite scary.

I think narcissism is heavily at the core of the leaders of these wacko movements…their need to have a surrounding mass of slavelike fans. That and being cynical opportunists and self-serving con men.

Don’t worry about the Kutuzov quote.

The whole place is falling into lawlessness…as in the days of Noah..

There is an unelected foreign nation running American gov today..perverting our elections to their favor…spilling American blood…stealing American money, and yet..nothing is ever said about this people…

Their ‘works’ are ALWAYS overlooked…and they use their control over media to always point their finger at someone else…Amazing..

When the government looks lawless…then these things will happen..

The media is totally corrupt…we dont even know if this story is true…or if they were forced to say they did these things..

I have no trust in any institution where large amounts of money are present…there are many Judas Goats out there that will do anything for money and power.

Lawlessness breeds lawlessness

A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves…

If someone tries to reverse this communist agenda…are they then called criminals? Im not sure what these men did..if they did anything at all…INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY…That used to be the American way…

There could be a totally different side to this story…I find it rather odd that the government has turned against the troops..now ALL OF A SUDDEN…all these so called troops are committing these nefarious things..

I DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING THE MEDIA SAYS..I THINK THIS IS A FALSE FLAG CRISIS DESIGNED TO STEAL AWAY OUR 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS…a false flag crisis that works on only the sheeple people who cannot think for themselves…and look at the evidence, which is 3 incidents close together involving military men..while the goons in Washington seek to destroy this nation from withing through disarmament of the people against the Constitution…

THOSE ARE THE TRUE CRIMINALS..AND YET…THEY TAKE OATHS TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION..AND YET..THEY WORK AGAINST IT..

THOSE ARE THE TRUE CRIMINALS…HOW COME THEY ARE NOT ARRESTED AND IN JAIL…

HHMM?????

Beasts have taken control over America…until they are eradicated..this insanity will never stop..

Well, Terry, my answer to you is a simple one:

The outpatients are out in force, and your idiotic outburst proves it.

Which foreign nation is running the United States? Bhutan? Monaco? How about Andorra?

What does Noah have to do with this situation…well, maybe if the polar ice caps all melt, and “Waterworld” becomes something more than an extremely expensive movie that bombed with the critics….

According to the Bible, in the days of Noah there was no “law.” It doesn’t come out and say that, but Noah lived before Moses when the law was handed down to the Jews. So basically people are living “wickedly” but God never really told them how to live in the first place. It’s really a terrible, terrible book.

Terry, ask yourself how many “false flag” shooting sprees they need to take away your 2nd Amendment rights. Because I don’t know if you noticed, but there have been dozens of mass shootings in the last ten or more years, and none of them managed to prompt draconian gun laws.

Kiwi,

There is, between France and Italy, on the shore of the Mediterranean Sea, a little bitty kingdom. The name of this kingdom is Monaco.-

L. Tolstoi, “It Costs Steep”

There is the archvillain nation!

Terry, while they always have claimed “innocent until proven guilty” in practice it was actually “innocent until proven Black” or “innocent until proven poor.”

Now with the rise of the for profit prison industry and the need to bring in more and more prisoners so that vulture capitalists like Mitt Romney can make more and more money, middle class White people are finally learning what poor Black people have always known: the criminal justice system is largely a tool to enforce the class system through selective enforcement.

Instead of fighting the real enemy – which is the voracious capitalist goal to turn everything into a for profit enterprize and to privatize gains while socializing risks – you are falling into their trap by embracing your gun and your Bible. The fact is that they do not care about your gun. Your gun is not a threat to them unless you are stupid enough to actually use it against someone who isn’t Black or to actually fight against the class system.

Now personally i would like it if the government sent in people to take guns from people like you simply because paranoia and firearms don’t mix.

But honey, you aren’t the Black Panthers, the government isn’t going to machine gun you while you’re sleeping. You are just a useful idiot to the right wing.

Y’know, it’s just the time of year when I could poison some dam apples by turning them into hard cider.

In fact, that’s a GOOD idea! I’m starting some today! Wish there was some way to share real hard cider around a virtual Stammtisch!

“Kiwi,

There is, between France and Italy, on the shore of the Mediterranean Sea, a little bitty kingdom. The name of this kingdom is Monaco.-

L. Tolstoi, “It Costs Steep””

Reynardine, I referred to Monaco in my post.

Actually, I kind of wish that the British and French never gave New Hebrides its independence in 1980. It was an Anglo-French Condominium, with two separate legal and political systems, even two separate postage administrations, for one island. People could be either under British rule or French rule, on the same set of islands. There were two completely different legal systems, one British, one French. The King of Spain appointed the Chief Judge.

During World War II, they were a major US military base, and the birthplace of a lot of “Cargo Cults.”

48 hours before they gained their independence, the British and French sent in Foreign Legionnaires and Royal Marines to put down a rebellion that would have turned the independence celebrations into a nightmare. Now it’s the Republic of Vanuatu, and for a while, they were one of Muammar Al-Qaddafi’s few allies.

It would have been wonderful to come here and answer these goofballs by suggesting that the evil foreign power behind America’s throne was the Anglo-French Condominium in New Hebrides. It’s perfect for conspiracy theorists.

I really thought Monaco was your best choice, since the Grand Duchy of Fenwick was said to have been modelled on it. You are right that the Anglo-French Condominium would have been better, since it’s clearly a decadent European conspiracy to manufacture Condoms©, and thus destroy morality. But we’re just goofing around here. The real villain is actually San Marino, even though Ronald Reagan tried to pretend it was Grenada.

Exactly, Rey. That’s where the rubber meets the road.

Aadila, I hereby award you an Epigrammy.

Such kindness will reverberate through 20 lifetimes.