on December 11th, 2012 at 9:03 am

Kiwi, I was not such a girl, in high school or thereafter. However, I seldom dated, because even the most intellectual guys were all after hot blondes with gooey lipstick and impressive cleavage, who never wore glasses and knew appreciably less than they themselves did (it works both ways).”

Good point, Reynardine…I don’t think I worded that as well as as I should have. But I would argue that if Adam had pursued women with quality like yourself, he would have found a girlfriend who would have cared for him, instead of ridiculing him with anti-Mormon propaganda.

I suspect that Adam, like the guys you describe, pursued shallow girls with huge hooters, and got the usual rejections that such girls toss at boys they consider beneath their shallow standards.

Also, I only went to high school about one day a week because I hated it there, and because there were, again, HORSES! The only class I ever got in trouble for skipping was gym, which was stupid, considering all of the exercise I was getting with the horses and hanging around stables and barns. One could get away with that degree of truancy back then because, well, nobody really cared about the education of females.

Shockingly enough, some girls are just more interested in other things than dating in high school, although I did have a cool, French boyfriend named Christophe who also hung around with the horses (but was sufficiently interesting on his own so that many of our activities didn’t were non-horse related).

It’s a shame that Adam was turned down for dates, but I would imagine, Adam, that there might have been girls who would have been willing to go out with you, but you didn’t ask them (and they didn’t ask you) because teenagers tend to be socially inept creatures who are terrified of rejection or of doing something (like asking out the quiet, be-spectacled girl who you think is really kinda cute, but your friends don’t, so – oh well) that might be un-cool or lead to mockage.

Hopefully, you have matured as you’ve aged, and you are more willing to take others as they are — and that they will be more willing to take you as you are, too. It seems that people either get wiser and more accepting, or they remain as petty and superficial as they were in junior high or high school. If you think about it, the ones who don’t “grow up” are missing out on a lot — like being able to look back on the silly stuff that mattered SO MUCH to us when we were kids, and that in retrospect, was just dumb.

If you are still hurting, write a story about it — a humorous story — and let yourself laugh at how silly people can be. A little gentle humor can help ease many hurts and allow you to explore your own feelings.

I suspect that high school girls not dating you was mostly because high school girls in general tend to have the social skills (and claws) of leopards. The only boys they want to date are uniformly older guys with hot bodies, cool cars, iced beer in their trunks, and admission tickets to the best nightclubs.

Maybe your experience will give you some empathy for Jews who get told that they have all the money in the world, blacks who are accused of being criminals by nature, and Latinos of being lazy.

It works both ways.

Adam, I think you’re absolutely wrong, and you have inadvertently isolated a key difference (of many) between those who are angered or troubled by bigotry (such as those regular posters on this blog whom you so scorn) and those who are bigots. Personally, I think a Mormon suffering abuse because of his or her faith is a victim of the same species of hate as a member of any other group who is suffering abuse because of membership in that group. I’d be surprised if any of the “hate police” you mock would, contrary to your expectation, support the kind of bigotry you describe; I’m guessing instead that they would think it’s basically stupid and destructive and evil. It’s interesting that your being a victim of such bigotry hasn’t made you more sympathetic toward “hate police”.

Perhaps your sensitivity has taken this particular cast because of the Mormon church’s dicey history in relation to, say, blacks serving in higher church positions or its present positions toward gays. Whatever one’s reaction to these qualities might be, the church itself is not DEFINED by bigotry. (an aside: I’ve personally known Mormons who were basically the antithesis of bigots, even toward gays).

Groups that are DEFINED by their promotion of bigotry are espousing pretty much the exact opposite of the “hate police” you deride. If they visit this site to insult, argue inanities, or troll, they are simply begging for derision. And there are plenty of regularly posting friends of this site who are happy to accomodate.

Derision in itself however does not equal hate. Personally, I don’t even “hate” the reekingly rancid racists who visit to stir up trouble; I hope that they are on some level finding amidst the derision they predictably receive some nuggets of wisdom that might nudge them closer to reasonability and tolerance. Even if you’re living deep in a black cave, enchanted by shadows, there’s always a chance to see the light.

The heart of the issue is bigotry and hatred directed at groups of people, especially because of fictional or distorted attributes of those groups.

(Sorry- I had many more comments in mind, but they all flu away)

Adam, I don’t think you can claim bigotry even if she did reject you just for being Mormon. Dating is totally personal. It’s not like you didn’t get served at a restaurant or the police pulled you over for it.

Don’t people get the right to date within their religion if they choose?

That is that girls refused to date you – allegedly because you are a Mormon

Really, that is your “evidence” of hatred? That girls wouldn’t date you when you were high school?

To me, it sounds like the statement “i will not date you because you are a Mormon” sounds suspiciously like “i will not date you because you are an insecure loser but try to come up with something to spare your feelings like religious conflict).

And in any case, even assuming argumendo that a young woman refused to date you based upon your membership in the Mormon Church that is hardly evidence of hatred. In fact, i consider that to be evidence of prudence on the part of the girls because sorry, there are some really good reasons why a woman (especially a non-Mormon woman) would shun a practicing member of the Mormon religion. In fact, i consider a refusal to date a practicing/believing Mormon by a young woman to be extremely prudent move.

Since you claim to have left the Mormon Church you are undoubtably aware that the Mormon Church is not exactly progressive in their view of women – in fact, regressive is a much more accurate description. Under the tenants of Mormonism, women are literally second class members. To have a guy subscribe to That entire “no birth control and have tons of children” thing is also a real turn off. The Mormon families i knew had a whole lot of children – ugh!

Then you get to the more cult-like aspects of the Mormon Church. Let’s start with the fact that the Mormons have a record of putting extreme pressure on non-Mormons dating Mormons to convert. Especially if they get engaged and there is huge incentive for Mormons to marry within the Temple where non-Mormons are not even allowed to enter. i happen to have gone to school with a Mormon whose older brother married a young woman who was non-Mormon and converted. Her entire family was not allowed to attend the wedding. That type of shunning and cutting off from family besides being a real warning sign of abuse (and in fact constitutes abuse) is also the type of thing you’d see from the Moonies or The People’s Temple of Jim Jones or the Branch Davidians. Basically, cutting off non-Mormons who convert into the church from their familes is the very hallmark of a cult. Putting pressure on other people to convert and trying to gain conversions through high pressure tactics is also a hallmark of a cult.

Much of the Mormon beliefs in fact are very similar to what you’d see in a cult – including paranoia, stockpiling supplies, cutting people off from non-Mormons, and exercising a high degree of social control (especially of women).

Sorry, i don’t care how many millions of suckers there are in the Mormon Church – if it walks like a cult, talks like a cult, and acts like a cult, it is a cult. And the “Church of the Latter Day Saints” does all of those things. i wouldn’t date a Moonie or a Hare Krishna or anyone in a group which calls itself The Family either.

So basically your claim is simply that girls found you repulsive and maybe to spare your feelings claimed it was due to you being a Mormon. And even if they did, so what. Its perfectly reasonable to date within your religion or at least refuse to date someone who belongs to a religion which has a history of pressuring people to convert (and then cuts off the people who convert from their former families and friends). Sorry, sweetie, but when it came to dating, it was most likely you which was the problem.

Oh puh-leeze! Now showing, The Martyrdom of Saint Adam. Oh, the Humanity!

Maybe you should get together with Sam and have a pity party.

We don’t ‘hate’ anyone or anything (except for Brussels sprouts. But that’s a different kind of ‘hate’), we simply have extreme disdain for those who possess viewpoints we find absurd.

We do not try to limit their ability to make their points; no we encourage it. But then you cannot criticize us for simply rhetorically destroying their ideas with sound logic.

Not all opinions are equal or valid. And if you believe they are, I strongly ask you to consider reading beyond post-modernist philosophy.

Unless you wish to be teased and taunted by mean girls, writers, lawyers, joke shop owners, and a terrible revolutionary hero whose name is seldom mentioned but oft saluted, you should be prepared to back up your affirmations with facts and argument.

Specifically regarding Mormonism, having known many Mormons, having nothing against the practice of any faith, and being myself part of a religious minority in this country, it is extremely unlikely that I would engage in the kind of hate you refer to.

Moreover, having spent considerable time reading the commentaries here and contributing to them on occasion, I find that objectively speaking, there may indeed be some collective resistance to a certain grouping of philosophies and political ideas that are presented here time and time again by people who seem to think their observations are one of a kind.

Perhaps the most relevant example is one woman who wrote something along the lines of “Well I declare I have never seen such hate in my entire life!” She, like you, confused criticism of the heavy handed moralism and intrusion of religion in the political sphere with the practice of faith.

We have here a group which includes Jews, Christians, Wiccans, Buddhists, athiests, heathens (that’s you Rey), straights, gays, whites, Asians, blacks, First Nations peoples, men, women, anarchists, socialists, pinkos, Log Cabin Republicans, verbose Kiwis, and undoubtedly many other forms of diversity I neglect to mention. We all seem to get along.

So if you have something to say which is worthy of discourse please chime right in. But be prepared to back up your claims with facts, evidence, philosophy, legal knowledge, personal anecdote and a strong dose of humor. If you just come in here with a prognathous sneer and thumbing your nose, be prepared.

We’ll make good sport of you.

I grew up Mormon in a small southern town, and experienced hate regularly. By girls who wouldn’t date me because of my faith, by people who asked how many wives I had, by people that made fun of me after attending the showing of “Godmakers” at the local Baptist Church. All of things were discrimnitory and hate-filled….but I bet the little crew of “HATE-POLICE” I listed above wouldn’t agree, because Mormons are evil because of their religious beliefs and ideaologies. I’m no longer Mormon, but I am an American, and I believe we are all created equal, and we should ALL treat one another with love, respect, tolerance, and understanding. This is not the place to read about such things as that!!

Now, let the bashing of me begin!

Sadly, the presence of a cultish community sanctioned by the late Pete Peters, a minister in this violent “faith, is well known in Colville. Several former “members” told me themselves about their experiences in this virulently racist compound on 500 acres along the Columbia River. I talked as well to a then current member. That was a very troubling and informative.

I never have stopped paying attention to the deadly bigotry coming out of Stevens County. It truly rivals that of the Aryan Nations. Not only were the Kehoes killers or attempted killers, but Buford Furrow who opened fire on a Jewish community center in Los Angeles wounding 5 children, then shooting a FIlipino mail man to death, came from Colville. The man who placed a bomb along the MLK route almost 2 years ago also was from Stevens County.

Stevens County is an area of numerous communities
with such dangerous beliefs. The Ark is known locally as a center of white supremacy. I know of several people who wielded power in local politics who were Christian Identity adherents. This is a dangerous center of hate as far as i am concerned. I known of many people of color, including Colville Indians, who were attacked verbally by racists. Both my children who are mixed race were attacked by other kids calling them the n word. My daughter’s school had racist graffiti scrawled on her school grounds and buildings. We moved due to the attacks she was subjected to by high school aged kids and younger when she was in middle school. I am very knowledgable about the virulent racism of this region during the ’90’s and up til 2006 when we were forced to move due to the racism and lack of resolve in addressing it effectively. I still keep myself informed as it was where i have lived most of my life.

I say to that, who cares? We ought to be governed by a conscience that tells us to do no evil. Religion is an attempt to figure out the differences between good and evil.

People who act out like criminals are damaged in some way and this character could actually have been damaged further by his military service.

As has been pointed out before, the American justice system makes these sorts of differentiations all the time, for all kinds of misconduct, not just charges aggravated by racial, ethnic, religious or sexual animus. These standards, as I hope you would already know, are set by legislative action, and executed by prosecutorial decision. There is nothing arbitrary about that practice, as you seem to suggest.

While it is true the original use of the word “bigot” was in a religious context, bigotry today is distinct from zealotry and fanatacism in that it is broadly understood to include intolerance for others’ immutable characteristics and not mere questions of conscience. To attempt to blur these lines for rhetorical purposes is at its root a fallacy by argument from ignorance. You may look that up if you don’t understand what it means.

Bigotry does indeed originate from a state of mind, and bears superficial resemblance to religious fervor, but then again, so does any crime where intent must be determined. Determining intent is one of the hardest tasks of the prosecutor, because even with evidence it is impossible to say for certain what was in the mind of any individual without a full confession, and hence in criminal court there is the long tradition of reasonable doubt.

Why that notion has somehow been transformed into an Orwellean “thought crime” bugaboo for the right wing is subject for a different debate and is rooted, most fundamentally, in cynicism, and is at cross purposes with the finalities of the justice system.

You seem to argue that the white male who expects the elderly black female to rise from her seat on the bus are coming from equally defensible moral positions, i.e. both are bigots. However, this country which has decided the question already.

Therefore your argument, apart from being morally bankrupt, lacks consequence. If you cannot tell poop from hot fudge, the problem is your own.

Furthermore, anybody can play the quote game. You say that the Bible in particular says that God doesn’t behold evil, yet Isaiah 45:7 says:

New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Young’s Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.’

Not interested in going back and forth with quotes, but to deny the Lord God of the Bible and suppant him with an All-Good Love God is not the least bit “scriptural”.

I don’t find anything truly “hateful” in what they teach about Jews. See link: http://www.sonplace.com/Xulon/Who_are_the_Jews.htm

For instance, their belief that: “Today the word ‘Jew’ refers to a religion, not a race. The Jews of today are a mixture of races who practice a religion based on the Babylonian Talmud. This religion bears only a passing resemblance to the Old Testament religion of the Israelites.”

And also: “The Jewish peoples of today may be great folks, it’s just that they are not the true descendants of ancient Israel. The religion of the ancient Israelites was based on “the law of Moses and the prophets.” According to a parable given by Jesus, those who originally heard the law of Moses and the prophets would later became Christians. The Jewish peoples of today came to Judaism only after ancient Israel had been conquered and disbanded by Assyria and Babylon. By that time the law of Moses had been superceded by the Talmud. These late-comers to Judaism never believed Moses and the prophets, and thus cannot be persuaded by Christianity today.”

They do label “Jews” imposters however, believing that today’s Jews are called that because of their religion, not because their race, because Jews aren’t a race, there are Jews of every race united in their religion of Judaism.

I don’t see how supposedly attending a Christian Identity church a few times with “fringe Mormons” will make somebody go out and kill random people, especially seeing that Wonder Russell in the group picture, closer than Israel Keyes probably ever got, went on to be a movie star! Awesome for her! :) http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0751517/
Group picture located here: http://www.sonplace.com/Our_Place/

Bigotry itself is synonymous with fanaticism and zealotry, being obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and tolerance is the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.

Every issue has those for and those against it. Jared Taylor is somebody I don’t follow.. I think labelling a belief-system a “pile of hot fudge” and another a “pile of poop” is kind of extreme, and as the definition goes, bigoted. When you start to think like that, you shut everything else out and don’t continue to grow.

Being tolerant does not mean allowing bigotry to go unchecked or without criticism. And it doesn’t mean acting like Jared Taylor.