I’m well aware that the US is no longer in the ChemBio game. That doesn’t mean they don’t store pathogens and dangerous agents as samples at Edgewood. I don’t want someone with that kind of an agenda having access to those same agents.

Security clearances are priveleges. And priveleges can be revoked for ANY reason. Maybe that’s what YOU don’t seem to understand.

Also, re-read my comments regarding the M-106 smoke grenade. I know what I’m talking about.

(Kiwiwriter: Are you in New Zealand? What is this Queen and Crown you talk about?)

Sorry about the delay in answering, but I have a real job and a real family, and real free-lance work, so that takes up a lot of my time.

I lived in New Zealand, got married in New Zealand, my daughter was born in New Zealand, had my first home and dog in New Zealand, was involved in community organizations in New Zealand, planned to stay in New Zealand, did a lot of my best writing in New Zealand, and regard Christchurch as my adopted home town. Hence: Kiwiwriter.

As for the “Crown” and “Shilling” reference, my family is English and has provided the Crown with soldiers and sailors since 1680, so that’s a phrase I heard a lot in my family. It’s about government service.

Back to this case: Yes, this fella has a great deal of rights as an American citizen, and he also signed a great many secrecy agreements and other paperwork when he assumed his present duties.

He is in a position of great responsibility and high security clearances, and therefore, he has, unfortunately, given up some of his rights — voluntarily — in exchange for the duties and responsibilities he has been assigned.

Being involved in outfits like American Renaissance could, for example, come to the attention of a foreign country or a terrorist organization, and be used by that nation or organization as a blackmail or ideological tool upon him to yield up secrets. This is not new…it’s the stuff of both fictional and factually spy stories since Casanova and Julius Caesar.

More importantly, when you’re in a position like that, you can’t be seen as being involved with outfits like American Renaissance. No, they have not called for the overthrow of governments or violence, and they have been careful to mute their racial hatred and animus of people they hate, when making public discourse.

But they are the “cleaner” version of harsher rhetoric, have considerable ties to such folks, and we have seen such representatives here. You may recall the person I call “Lon Chaney,” who came here under many names, most of them starting with the letter “E,” alternately shilling for American Renaissance, spouting idiotic racist rhetoric, denouncing us as Communist liars, and arrogantly demanding our life stories and 10-year resumes. This person openly told us that being a “neo-Nazi” is a good thing, while swearing adherence to Jared Taylor and American Renaissance.

These are the birds John Stortsrom is accused of nesting with, and that raises questions about his loyalty, ethics, and personal character, which are critical factors for government positions that require “special trust and confidence.”

I see from this thread that Mr. Storstrom is on “administrative leave with pay,” so his income is not in any danger, and this matter is being investigated. He may very well be able to convince his superiors that while disliking various ethnicities, he does not support violence, nor does he violate equal opportunity policies at work. Somehow, I don’t think so.

Yes, it is unfortunate that people in such positions lose some of their rights and liberties as American citizens, because of their positions. I am not happy with it. I am also not happy with the fact that we live in an unpleasant dangerous world. Nor am I happy with the government becoming what it beholds. But I am concerned that this individual, in a position of considerable importance to our nation’s defense, is voluntarily connecting himself to people and organizations that diametrically oppose — and perhaps with force — the ideals and values that our country professes to uphold.

I would like to see how this plays out. But I find it disturbing that a person in his public position should take such an unusual personal position.

It is more a question of character, ethics, duty, and honor, than personal politics. His adherence to those concepts of character, ethics, duty, and honor are at issue here…not as much his politics. To me, these concepts are moral absolutes. I hope you can respect those values…I try to live by them.

The Edgewood Center is in the chem bio defense business.

The US got out of the offensive business decades ago.

No one at that center would have any access to bombs or bomb making materials of any kind.

Just google them and see for yourself.

and anyone who is working for someone else is going to have to follow their employer’s rules. i mean, have you ever bothered to work in a job? people in government employee actually have much stronger protections – being able to be fired for only very limited reasons. if he was working for a private company chances are good that he would have been fired immediately if his employer found out he was going to white nationalist meetings.

And considering that he is continuing to be paid during the investigation into whether his activities are legal its hard to even think he is being oppressed that much. if he is not violating his employer’s rules he will go back to his job without having lost anything (since he was still being paid). If not, because he was working for the government he will be able to file a grievance and go to federal court to challenge his dismissal. Since federal law provides a very narrow list of reasons of for cause termination there is a good chance that he will probably actually keep his job (contrary to what Dan thinks)

I’ve known people who have list their clearance for READING WIKILEAKS or DOWNLOADING TORRENTS.

The fact that you think this smacks of Fascism shows how little you know of the security field.

I’m rather surprised you’ve not heard of Noam Chomsky. Your views seem to very much mirror his.

As I said before, let him take the government to court. A judge can decide our argument.

I had a quick look, and it doesn’t seem that the SPLC considers either American Renaissance or Youth for Western Civilization to be either extremists or hate groups. It is better to call them ‘far-right’, or as I like to say these days “the political mainstream”.

“I gather you are a follower of my former neighbor Chomsky? His philosophy is impractical. ”

Don’t know him.

“There is no such thing as absolute free speech.”

Of course not. But there is an inalienable right to political and social expression.

I gather you are a follower of my former neighbor Chomsky? His philosophy is impractical. There is no such thing as absolute free speech.

No, dear, I am standing up for someone who’s rights seem under threat. The fact that I disagree with him is irrelevant, and I am disturbed that everyone else here doesn’t also object.

(And it is not the actions of the government I object to, but those of the SPLC in targeting a private individual for political expressions and associations that appear fully licit.)

No one has accused the engineer of the things you imagine. In fact the Baltimore Sun quoted statements from the president of the Republican Club that the engineer is none of those things.

No, of course not. Racism is not the same as extremism. The SPLC does not report that AR calls for or engages in violence. They are not terrorists and do not advocate the overthrow of the government.

“In my opinion, his actions violate the Hatch Act.”

I only note that no one has accused him of this.

1) white nationalists and white supremacists have a long history of committing violent criminal acts or acts of terrorism against people

2) the military has released numerous reports (remember the right wing freak out after the most recent one a couple of years back?) about the threat of right wing extremists in the military and the attempts by right wing extremists to access military weapons.

3) white supremacists and white nationalists tend to oppose the federal government and often advocate for the use of violence against that government

4) he has been revealed to have ties with known white supremacists and white nationals

given those four items it would be irresponsible for the military to not investigate how deep his ties to white supremacists and white nationalists are – and to see if he is violating employment rules.

and the saddest part is that i’m sure if the white nationalists would obtain military weapons and use them in a terrorist attack and it is revealed that the received them from a person working in a government military weapons research lab had known ties to white nationalists you would be howling about the military’s failure to investigate him before the terrorist attack took place.

In my opinion, his actions violate the Hatch Act.

Let him file suit against the government. Let the courts decide.

No one, not here, nor in any other news source, has accused him of having ties to extremist groups. He has only been accused of membership in political activist groups with views that you (we) disagree with. He has not even been accused of violating the Hatch Act.

He’s merely a private citizen. He doesn’t have a PR department. He doesn’t have lawyers on staff. It is far to easy to victimize him for doing nothing but exercising his rights. I, at least, will object to that.

your entire argument is based upon a faulty premise – namely that this is based upon his political views and not potential ties to extremist groups – get over yourself and actually try studying what actually happened in the McCarthy period (why don’t you start by actually reading the court cases from that period such as Joint Anti-Fascist Organizing Committee v. McGrath so you can understand the difference between what the government was doing in the late 1940s/early 1950s and this)..

In Section 29 (Association Record) we find a list of yes/no questions starting “Have you ever…”. In condensed form, they are as follows:

a. …been a member of a terrorist organization?

b. …been a member of an organization dedicated to the violent overthrow of the US Government?

c. …been a member of an organization that uses violence to discourage others from exercising their rights?

d. …advocated acts of terrorism designed to overthrow the US Government?

e. …knowingly engaged in activities designed to overthrow the US Government by force?

f. …knowingly engaged in acts of terrorism?

g. …participated in militias or paramilitary groups?

That’s the full list. Since none of the groups this engineer is said to belong to would be on this list, he has no known associations that would be questionable.

Other than this, he retains his full rights of free speech and association.

(Kiwiwriter: Are you in New Zealand? What is this Queen and Crown you talk about?)

It is a matter of duty and honor, both personal and professional. And those concepts must be uppermost in the minds of those who choose the career in public and government service.

It is not “just another job.” It is a calling.

There would not have been a suspension and investigation – you would not have the opportunity to contest the charges – you just got fired.

That – and not people being fired for political beliefs – was the real evil of McCarthism. It has always been perfectly reasonable to deny a security clearance for a person who is involved in groups seeking to overthrow the federal government or potentially involved in terrorism. Its not reasonable to deny a security clearance because of a person’s legal political activities. The investigation is designed to see if his activities rise to the level of being involved with groups engaged in illegal activities – if they don’t he will keep his job. If they do, he will have a chance to challenge the determination in court.

The problem is it looks like he failed to report his membership in several questionable organizations. He is probably also being investigated for revealing his job duties at the lab.

If you are going to work for the military in a security job you give up some of your privacy rights.

Some of these people are just cold, ruthless and appear to be devoid of a soul. It is a sad situation that we have such a poisonous philosophy that spreads like a disease in our culture.

The only way to eradicate it is for those who are victim of it to write about it share their experiences, turn in the culprits and their groups no matter how many of them.

As the Southern Poverty Law Center continues to publish those articles that keep watch and inform us it keeps the intelligence moving through the hands and minds of the community. That is where we need the intelligence.

These groups exist and grow due to some failure of the front lines. The front lines being each and every one of us.

I desire strong front lines because I don’t want to move into communities where these idiots are residing and running things. Who wants these type of people for neighbors, or to have them employed giving you service where you shop?

Let’s all meditate, pray whatever it is that you do, on the idea of increasing supporters for this organization SPLC. We need one of these in every state.

Next they start with mild influences gaining respect, friendship etc. Working just like con artists and then turning their newly found prey. Just like an organized gang they look for those who have education and influence in areas they believe will be helpful for them in furthering their cause. I don’t know if that was the case with this man but just food for thought on how these monsters infect our communities.

oh, yeah, here come the internet tuffguys. herpa derpa derp derp derp. Go get ‘em, Dan. :roll-eyes:”

I didn’t write that. It was Voltaire. So you can crawl back under your rock.

begin quote
Mullis said he thought Heimbach’s views were more in line with the conservative group Campaign for Liberty than with the mainstream Republican Party.

“At the end of the presentation, we made it very clear that we did not agree with his mantra and he was more ‘CPL’ and Libertarian than Republican,” Mullis said. “We appreciated it, wished him ‘mazel tov’ [Hebrew for 'good luck' or 'congratulations'] with his program, but the majority of us were not in agreement with what he was saying.”
end quote

Heimbach is a registered Republican, they say, and so his appearing at this group is legitimate. Other people at the meeting (including the engineer) may or may not agree with his views.

Where then is the justification for the witch-hunt against this guy?

As far as I can see, he has not been _accused_ of anything that would cause concern for either government employment or security clearance.

He has not been accused of violating the Hatch Act.
He has not been accused of advocating the violent overthrow of the US Government.
He has not been accused of workplace discrimination or harassment.

He has only been “accused” of having perfectly legal associations and memberships.

I doubt I agree with him on practically anything, but I will definitively defend his rights to expression and association. I am surprised that most other posters here don’t agree with that. I am saddened that the SPLC publicized this case.

I’m sorry, not to sound like a presumptuous ass but you must be white; because only a white right-winger would compare the nebulous concept of freedom of speech and association being violated when a white supremacist in a high-fatality military grade weaponry occupation is fired (a serious threat to the about 30% or so of Americans who DON’T have fair complexion and sufficiently European roots) to the McCarthyism communist witch hunts of the 1950′s, which actually ruined countless innocent, benign lives and demonized completely democratic political opponents as being sub-human.

The former affirms how far we have to go to reach a mythical ”post-racial America” and how vigilant we must remain about our elected officials regardless of affiliation while the latter proves how incompetent, authoritarian and unnecessarily intrusive government can be when bending to the will of a tunnel-minded, bigoted and anti-intellectual radicalized political minority (i.e. the Tea Party of the mid-20th century; any government is bad government unless if of course involves criminalizing abortion, birth control, homosexuality, civil rights, disproportionately racial/class-based criminal justice corruption and military-industrial complex expansion). All that Fox News and Rush Limbo really does rot I.Q. points at super speed, apparently…