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Leading Holocaust Denier Leaves German Prison

By Larry Keller on March 4, 2010 - 9:42 am, Posted in Anti-Semitic, Holocaust Denial, Neo-Nazi

Longtime Hitler enthusiast and Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel was released from a German prison on Monday after serving five years for the crime of inciting racial hatred. Zundel, who turns 71 next month, said he would be heading to his home in the Black Forest to regain his health. “It’s kind of a sad situation,” he told The Associated Press as a small group of supporters greeted him outside a Mannheim prison.

Thus ends a long legal saga that began in 1977 when the German-born Zundel founded a small publishing house in Canada called Samisdat Publishers. He published books such as The Hitler We Loved and Why (which he co-authored under a pseudonym) and Did Six Million Really Die? and distributed Nazi and neo-Nazi posters, audiotapes and other items. Among the countries where Zundel sent his offerings was Germany, which has laws prohibiting Holocaust denial and dissemination of Nazi and neo-Nazi material.

It also was during the 1970s that Zundel was spokesman for Concerned Parents of German Descent, a group that contended that German Canadians and their children were discriminated against by anti-German stereotyping. Zundel even issued press releases protesting NBC’s “Holocaust” miniseries for its portrayal of Germans. And yet Toronto Sun columnist Mark Bonokoski reported that Zundel’s maternal grandparents were Jewish. Bonokoski also wrote that one of Zundel’s ex-wives told him that Zundel was concerned enough about his lineage that he returned to Germany in the 1960s in search of his family’s Nazi-era certificate of pure Aryan blood, but could find no such document.

Zundel lived in Canada for more than 40 years, although he was a German citizen. He was tried twice there in the 1980s on criminal charges of using the mail to send hate propaganda. His conviction at his first trial was overturned on a legal technicality. His conviction at the second trial was also overturned when Canada’s Supreme Court ruled that the charge on which he was convicted was unconstitutional.

In the late 1990s, Zundel was investigated anew by Canadian authorities, this time for promoting hatred against Jews on his website. In 2000, he moved to Sevierville, Tenn., and married a fellow Holocaust denier named Ingrid Rimland (who had run Zundel’s website for years). Three years later, he was arrested for violating U.S. immigration rules as he applied for citizenship and deported to Germany to face charges there. Zundel tried to thwart the Germans by seeking refugee status in Canada. Twice denied citizenship in Canada, his permanent residency status had expired after his move to Tennessee. A judge denied his bid to remain in the country, saying he was a national security threat.

Zundel’s trial in Germany lurched along, delayed when two of his attorneys were kicked off the case because of their own far-right, anti-Semitic views. He was eventually convicted and sentenced to the maximum of five years in prison.

Canada Public Safety Minister Vic Toews on Tuesday made it clear that Zundel can forget about returning to that country should he long to leave the Black Forest.

“In 2005, a Federal Court judge confirmed that Zundel is inadmissible on security grounds for being a danger to the security of Canada,” Toews said in a statement. “The decision reinforced the government of Canada’s position that this country will not be a safe haven for individuals who pose a risk to Canada’s national security.”

  • SowZ37

    So a guy denies the holocaust and gets carted off to jail. In defending her client, his lawyer lets it go that she doesn’t really buy into that holocause thing either. Then she is prosecuted.

    Does anyone else think that this reads like a Pro-McCarthy paper of the 1950s? So somebody denies the evidence of something, makes people angry, and promotes ignorance. They deserve to go to prison for that? Oh, okay. Then let’s throw all them seven day creationists in jail too, then! Not only do they hurt the education of our youth, they damage the reputations and grant moneyawarded to hard-working scientists! Yarr.

    Look, before anyone says anything, Zundel disgusts me. In fact, he would probably prefer my non-pork eating face six feet under. My grandfather’s grandpa’ escaped nazism with perfect timing and boy, am I glad of it! So this is a very personal issue to me. And as much as I despise the ideas behind neo-nazism, I will protect their rights to hold any political ideology they wish. Scott, I have no sympathy for Zundell either. But that doesn’t mean I should forget civil rights and due process of law because, ‘Oh, he is a bad person anyway.’

    And here is one more thing. The only way to combat ignorance is to allow open discussion. Truth asserts itself by means of discussion. Observers who are open-minded can onyl determine real truth by listening to those arguments and researching them. As such, truth is stifled even as lies are stifled.

    Snorlax: At Libel is defamation that causes serious social or economic problems to someone. It is NOT hurting a lot of people’s feelings.

  • vlad

    I’m proud of my European heritage, I’m proud to be an American, and I’m proud that Europes evil ideologies have gone their way.

    Never Again… Racism or Hate

  • vlad

    No denying that the Red Army was bloodthirsty, no denying German/Russian invasion of Poland… no denying that Naziism, fascism, & Soviet communism were the most evil political movements in European history.

    That said, history tells us Naziism would have exterminated the Slavs and other Europeans the way they exterminated the Jews if they had won. The Soviet Union on the other hand withered and died on the vine less than 50yrs after it and the allies defeated the Nazis.

  • Scott

    Dave,

    Out of my whole post the only thing you felt worthy enough to comment on was my use of Voltaire’s quote? Oh my. I will again attempt to edify you in what the Jewish Holocaust was that makes it different in scope, although as I have quoted my Dad before, “Dead is dead.” Jews were targeted simply because they were Jews. The people that did the killing were taken in by outright lies, and an entire _industry_ was formed around their extermination. From 1941 to 1945 almost 5,000,000 human beings were slaughtered, about 1,000,000 of them _children_, simply because of a perceived bloodline, for many of those that were killed were not even practicing Jews any longer. They were viewed as not even human beings, but vermin to be squashed without even a second thought. You may doubt that anyone with a soul “kills or knowingly injures another human being without feeling justified”, but in fact that is what happened. And they did feel justified because they were told that Jews were “dirty”, “a fifth column”, “were out to control the world”, variously were either “Communists”, or creators of “Capitalism”, “refused to bathe”, “the root of all of Germany’s problems”, “used the blood of Christian children to make matzoh”, ad infinitum. Yet Jews did not return to their stolen homes and take revenge on those that pilfered their belongings and killed and raped their families, no. In fact many Jews who had nowhere else to go, and were from Poland returned there, to be told “It is a shame Hitler didn’t finish you”, and in some cases were THEN killed. Jewish revenge was, and has always been to simply _survive_. My father languished in displaced persons camps for five years arriving in the United States in 1950 only after having been “sponsored” by Jewish community leaders in Massachusetts, because nowhere else would have him, and he would not go back to Germany where he felt nothing pulling him back due to his father’s murder in Dachau, his sister’s death as a Warsaw ghetto fighter, and his Mother’s and brother’s flight to South America.

    Yes, every war is a holocaust (small h), but the Jewish Holocaust (capital H) was unique in the many ways I have mentioned. They were not combatants and they had lived in some places, such as Germany and Poland peacefully and productively for centuries.

    So, once again, I have very mixed feelings on Zundel’s imprisonment, but I do have no sympathy for him, for if I were to meet him he would only want my death, without even knowing me as a person, and without my having done anything untoward to him.

    The only reason to continue this discussion, in my view, and that of history’s itself, is to make sure that this or anything like it never happens again. That is why survivors such as Elie Wiesel speak out on the genocide in the Sudan. And that is why I will continue to speak out when I see injustice in the world against _anyone_, even you.

    And you still refuse to answer my direct question, so I will ask it once again with no expectation of an honest response: Do you deny the reality of the Holocaust?

    “There are philosophies which are unendurable not because men are cowards, but because they are men.” -
    Ludwig Lewisohn,
    German-born English author and artist (1882-1955).

  • Dave

    Scott: You quote of Voltaire, speaks volumes. As a veteran of 3 wars (Korean, Viet Nam & Destert Storm) I can asure you every war is a “holocaust”. Every government uses proganda to motivate both the troops and the people at home. What I believed at 17, growing up on WW 11 John Wayne movies are not the same things I believe at age 74. But I doubt anyone with a sole, kills or knowingly injures another human without feeling justified. The issue here, was whether putting an old man in jail for 7 years because he does not agree with my or your view of history. Or his imprisonment an act of revenge. Further if it is revenge, is revenge hateful, even when one may feel justified.
    I have no doubt that young machineguner tasked with executing enemies of the state, felt justified, in executing my Swedish ancestors who were driven from their homes in Poland in 1939. Who survived WW 11 only to be forcibly returned to Poland in 1946, by the Americans and British at the request of the Russians as were 800,000 well documented others, was in fact a “holocaust”. But the war is over. The dead have been burried. We can not bring them back.
    Do we realy want to pass on a blood fued to our children and their children, so 50 or 100 years from now they kill one another. This type of thinking is what motivates idiots to strap explosives to their bodies and wade ito some populated market place, blowing themselves into hamburger and 40 or 50 other men woman and children.

    Hatred if strong enough will always manifest itself as some form of violence.

  • Scott

    Oops,

    That amended statement should read “Denying that Sherman and his forces committed atrocities in the South is stupid, dumb and hateful.”

    Bummer.

  • Scott

    Dave,

    If what you say is true, I express my sympathy and empathy for you and your family. But, if what you say is true how could you continue to dance around my point blank question? Do you deny the reality of the Holocaust?

    Yes, the war was 65 years ago, and unfortunately there are very few who are alive who can bear witness to all the atrocities committed at that time, although there are still some who are. But there are thousands of people who grew up listening to the stories of horror from their parents. Not their great-great-great-… you get the idea. Not to mention the old saw, “Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it”, but I paraphrase.

    “Putting someone in jail because he claims Sherman and his forces did not commit atrocities in the south is stupid, dumb and hateful!”

    I would amend this statement by saying that “Denying that Sherman and his forces did not commit atrocities in the South is stupid, dumb and hateful.” I would also say, that in the long run war is hell, but there are times, unfortunately when it seems to be necessary, and the Civil War, and WWII were two times that war was necessary, to save the helpless from even more pain, even though both wars were not necessarily fought for noble reasons, just that the outcomes were noble. Also, Zundel was not jailed in the US, and once again I reiterate, Germany has a right to it’s own laws, and they have very good reasons for wanting to inhibit denial of the Holocaust in a public way.

    Comparing “rehashing” of facts on the Civil War to the reality of the Holocaust is apples and oranges. Not to mention, for the third time, the amount of real factual information surrounding the events of the Holocaust by eye witnesses, _many of whom were Nazis_ puts the lie to any denial, and most thinking people know exactly why someone would want to deny those facts.

    One more thing, my father was liberated by the Red Army, and did not see one instance of any atrocities by them, nor did he witness any anti Semitism from them. This is not to say that things such as that didn’t happen, just that he, an eye witness, did not see them, and until his dying day was grateful to the Red Army for his liberation.

    “Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.”

    - Voltaire, 1767.

  • The Anti-Semite Dostoevsky

    Dave is obviously an agent of the Haiburton / US-warmachine who seeks good political relations with Turkey. “Hate” is when opinion hurts profit.

    But then, I see you doing the same thing. You divert the issue of free speach and German and Canadian laws to the validity of the statistics and Holocaust claims. Or to whether the claims against the Turks justify using the term “Holocaust”. When ever emotion takes over it is difficult to stick to the facts. This is why you should never act as your own lawyer.

    By what right then is the holocaust called “the holocaust”?

  • Dave

    Vlad: You deny Hitler and Stalin were allied when they invaded Poland in 1939. I had relatives living near the Rssian border who fled into Germany only to surrvive WW II to be forced on to trains by the British and Americans and sent back to Poland, where they were executed by your beloved Red Army! Right down to the last infant. So much for the charity of Communism. But I can’t bring back the dead or rewrite history. We were just Swedish caught in the middle, but then so was Eisenhower, who sent them to their death. WW II has many different views. machinegun bullets kill just as well as gas.

  • Dave

    Scott; To the contrary, I had relitives in Dresden when it was fire bombed. Also relatives who were raped and slaughtered by the Red Army. Then to add insult to injury, those subjected to “Opperation Keelhaul” where the allies force my Polish relatives back to the USSR where they were promptly executed. I have no sympathy for the Trotsky founded Red Army, who Netanyahu wants to build a memorial to. Why is little to nothing ever spoken about the atrocities committed by the Communists? Besides the “War” ended 65 years ago. Few under the age of 75 remember anything of the War. This has become much like rehashing the Civil War in the American south. Everyone has a different view point. Putting someone in jail because he claims Sherman and his forces did not commit atrocities in the south is stupid, dumb and hateful!

  • Scott

    Dave,

    Whether you like it or not, genocide is decidedly an emotional subject. Were members of your family murdered, you might agree. The facts are, the Holocaust, as portrayed in countless volumes, and I repeat, by the myriad records provided by the Nazis themselves, are unequivocal.

    Do you actually deny them?

    I also have noticed, after decades of “debates” with opposing opinions, that those such as yourself like to denigrate whomever disagrees with you by “accusing” them of some form of “emotionalism”. I say that _every_ opinion comes from some emotion, the so-called “lefties” generally from compassion and kindness, and those who consider themselves from the “right” anger, jealousy and fear. (I use quotations for the simple reason that I don’t like labels. There is not one label that may fit any one individual, but I use them for lack of something better.)

    I also restated what I actually thought about Zundel’s predicament, especially as it applies to the US Constitution.

    And I never would defend myself pro se.

  • vlad

    My family was a victim of both Naziism and Communism. But at least with the Red Army our destiny was survival, not extermination.

  • vlad

    Communism was born of good intentions such as the brotherhood & equality of all men. Its own inner contradictions and ultimate totalitarian nature led to its demise – at least in the Soviet Union. Naziism on the other hand was unrepentant evil based on race hatred, Europe’s conquest and the rule of an elite. It set Europe in flames for its own nationalistic aims and is responsible for the deaths of over 40m people.

    Zundel is now able to live out the rest of his life in freedom. Imagine how it would have been if the Nazi’s new the truth about him.

  • Dave

    Scott: You make a very valid point on how the subject has changed from free speach to comunism vs nazi.

    But then, I see you doing the same thing. You divert the issue of free speach and German and Canadian laws to the validity of the statistics and Holocaust claims. Or to whether the claims against the Turks justify using the term “Holocaust”. When ever emotion takes over it is difficult to stick to the facts. This is why you should never act as your own lawyer.

  • Scott

    Hmmm… This discussion started as a debate over free speech, but has devolved into a debate on who did more killing, Communists or Fascists. I will try and bring the discussion back to where it belongs. Germany has laws against Holocaust denial because they have first hand knowledge about where it leads. Support or oppose them, the German laws stand… in Germany. Here in the US I, the son of a survivor of Auschwitz-Birkenau, and a supporter of First Amendment rights, have mixed feelings on Zundel’s conviction and imprisonment. First, I despise Zundel, and what he stands for, and all deniers of genocide be they Holocaust deniers, or those that wish to call the Turkish genocide of Armenians something else for political reasons. I also believe, generally, that the best way to fight “bad” speech is with MORE speech, something like what Ruslan and Snorlax are doing right here. The facts that the Holocaust occurred and the numbers attributed to it having been arrived at through decades of research, largely from the meticulous records kept by the Nazis themselves are undeniable. All one needs do is watch the epic Shoah by Claude Lanzmann to be convinced. And that is but one source of information that exists. There are thousands more, including Yad Vashem in Israel, and the US Holocaust museum in D.C. To believe that there is a conspiracy by the 17 million or so Jews in the world to gain “sympathy” is simply ludicrous, based on the fact that Jews are only a small part of Holocaust literature, and witnesses come from all backgrounds, including once Nazis. The facts behind the denial of the Holocaust are, the only way to allow something like this to happen again, is to deny it ever happened in the first place, and THAT is why the German laws against denial are in place, and THAT is what Zundel and his ilk attempt to do. It is extremely easy to attack the Jews simply because of the numbers, as is the case with any minority in any place on Earth. These people who deny the Holocaust, or question how _many_ were killed, do so out of simple hatred, and nothing more. They enjoy inflicting pain on others, and to them Jews are easy targets. To compare the numbers killed by Fascists and Communists is just silly, for as my Dad used to say, dead is dead. The reality is, however, that the Nazis _did_ create an _industry_ to kill Jews, and in doing so, used up much of the resources they had for the war, which is one of the reasons they, thankfully, failed. And that creation of industry is why the Nazis will be forever remembered for the largest attempt at actual _genocide_ ever perpetrated. To debate just how many were actually killed in the gas chambers, Faurisson notwithstanding, diminishes the fact that the gas chambers were ever created in the first place. The recent theft of the Arbeit Macht Frei sign over the gates at Auschwitz is just another example of the callousness of human beings, which is yet another reason the German laws exist. They exist, once again because Germans, better than most anyone else, know where these deniers are attempting to take us, back to the brink of genocide.

    Now, do I think Zundel should be ostracized and punished for his “beliefs” (my Dad also used to say, “Either they’re lying, or stupid, and I don’t think they’re stupid.”), yes. Do I think that in the United States there should be laws against _claiming_ that the Holocaust never happened, no. Do I think that Germany has good reason for having it’s own laws against denial, yes, again.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    What you fail to realize Dave, is that the Bolsheviks had “special sections” for ALL the nationalities of Russia. What an utter failure of a post. Oh and good luck proving that 4.4% of the Red Army officers were Jewish. For one thing, even in those times most of the officers began their careers as officers or NCOs in the Tsarist regime. The Bolshevik party by the way, had the fewest Jews of any party in 1917(around 900).

  • Jack

    “Holocaust revisionism is LIBEL.”

    Really? I think you better go back to law school.

    Very few states allow suits concerning libel of the dead and in those you would still have to prove some type of monetary damages.

    And seeing as those dead are not within those states jurisdiction, what’s your point?

  • Dave

    As the borders of Soviet Russia sharpened, large numbers of Jews who had previously been under Russian control found themselves outside of the Soviet Empire. Only about 2,500,000 Jews remained under Soviet control. The Bolsheviks rejected anti-Semitism and loosened civil restrictions on the Jews. Under the influence of influential assimilated Jews, the Bolsheviks began to see the assimilation of the Jews as the only solution to “the Jewish problem.” Jewish nationalist expressions, be they expressions of the Jewish religion or Zionism, were clamped down upon. While the Bolshevik leaders clamped down on Jewish separatism their fight against anti-Semitism gained them wide support among the Jewish masses. Jewish youth enthusiastically joined the Red Army (founded by a Jew, Leon Trotsky). In 1926, Jews made up 4.4% of the officers in the Red Army (more than twice their ratio in the general population). Jewish elites also took part in the administrative rebuilding of the country. While a small but influential group of Jews helped rebuild Russia, the Socialist Economic Policies weakened the masses. The Bolsheviks also set up a special “Jewish section” in government in response to the fact that millions of Jews were attached to the Jewish religion and Hebrew language (at least as a language of prayer and Judaism). The Communists put secular assimilationist Jews in charge in order to foster hatred towards the Jewish religion, Hebrew, and Zionism, though temporarily allowing its replacement with secular Yiddish culture. In August 1919, Jewish communities were dissolved and properties confiscated. Traditional institutions of Jewish education and culture, such as yeshivot and cheder, were shut down. Hebrew study was prohibited and it became forbidden to print Jewish books. In 1928, it was forbidden to even print religious books and Jewish calendars. In 1927, Rabbi J. Schneerson, the leader of Habad Hasidism, was imprisoned and expelled from Russia. Yet “underground” religious activity still continued, though after World War II, hundreds of Hasidism left Russia to Eretz Yisrael. The growing restrictions on Jewish religious life strengthened Zionism.

    What you and others refuse to acknowlege is there were two main Jewish political fations. The communist lead Zionists and the Jewish assimilation movement.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Trotsky organized the Red Army but I don’t see how that is relevant. Any excesses committed by the Bolsheviks in the Civil War are far outweighed by those committed between Deniken, Kolchak, and an eccentric little chap named Roman Ungern von Sternberg. ‘Eccentric’ in the sense that he believed himself to be the reincarnation of Genghis Khan, often killed his own men in a drunken rage, and was once quoted as saying he would line the roads to Moscow with gallows, hanging every Jew and Bolshevik he found. Hitler would have loved him.

    Also, nobody EVER claimed that 11 million people were turned into soap. In fact, 11 million people or even 6 million people were not gassed either- these numbers including shootings and forced starvations in the ghettos. The numbers generally include all people who died as a result of the deliberate system of extermination which the Nazis implemented. In fact the Germans killed no less than 8 million Soviet civilians, possibly as many as 13 million. Unfortunately a number of those are included in the Holocaust total for various reasons and so it is difficult to say where one number begins and another ends.

    Soap from humans was made on an experimental basis in one camp. Something like 50 kilos of the soap was made, as is mentioned in the Nuremburg trials.

  • Jack

    Here goes Snorlax blathering myth, yet again:

    “No. making 11 million people into soap is hatred.”
    Snorlax, nobody is going to take anyone who claims that seriously.

    You show over and over that you can not grasp the difference between myth and reality.
    The whole soap deal has been debunked so many times it is tiresome. If you still believe it you are beyond redemption.

    Here is another gem:
    “And if I’m a fascist for fighting fascists, as their supporter has called me here, then that just proves my assertion that they are insane.”

    You are not fighting fascism by doing exactly what fascists do. Putting anyone in prison for their speech is horrible.
    But like a good fascist that is what you would do.
    You are part of the crowd that loves free speech, just as long as it is speech you approve of.

    Ruslan:
    Hmm, demographic evidence?
    There is plenty of that available to show the numbers claimed killed by Hitler are wildly inflated.
    But I would expect you to defend Stalin versus others as you are an admitted communist.

    I did not know that Red Dawn was being redone.
    That is awesome.

    WOLVERINES!!

  • Dave

    If I had several hours, I could locate, a book given to me in 1972, along with many other new VW owners, titled “Small Wonder”. It was the history of the VW automobile. It was also the history of the socialization of German industy prior to WW 11. By present American standards, I can see where you would claim they weren’t “socialists”. But then I am old enough to remember when Doctors made house call and drove used Fords and not Mercedes.
    Also a child of WW11 I remember scrap drives, my grand mother saving fat, meat rationing and the red and blue ration ration “disks” as well as the “A” automobile sticker that permitted 3 gallons of gas a week. Point here is Hitler never turned 11 million people into soap. The whole soap bit came from the “Cain Mutiny” of 1950. But propaganda always make for great lies to be exagerated and expanded.
    Trotsky was the leader of the “RED ARMY”, his slaughter of Jew and gentile alike is well documented. This certainly begs the question “WHY, are so many Troskyite ‘socialist’ so deeply entrenched in our present government. Many, many members of the “RED ARMY” fled to Israel. Why have none ever been put on trial for War Crimes?” Many, many Jews remember what our forefathers and family members suffered under these Zionist who call themselves Jews, but slaughter their own.
    It is time to remember, like the American Civil War, World War 11 is over. Anyone who served on either side is now over 80 years old. The young don’t care about the Korean War, Viet Nam, Desert Storm, nor do the wan’t to fight in this current endless “War on Terrorism”. Governments , all govenments lie to their people to achieve their political agendas. Just like they lied to me in WW 11 as I brought my pennies and nickels to school to by “victory stamps” for my chance to get a “WAR BOND”. Few people can stand the stench of two day old road kill. Few could survive the smell of rotting corpses of friends and loved ones endured almost daily during WAR!

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Let’s make a correction here. Demographic evidence soundly debunks the claim that 20 million people died under Stalin. In fact the life-span doubled, infant mortality dropped, the and death rate was halved by the end of Stalin’s tenure. Hitler on the other hand, did not just deliberately attempt to exterminate 11-12 million people. He deliberately started a war which claimed the lives of well over 50 million people, destroyed entire cities(such as Warsaw), and left deep scars that still plague Europe today. The atrocities and ethnic cleansing of the former Yugoslavia have their roots in WWII, as anyone familiar with the conflict can testify.

    Even if you consider the Communist occupation of Eastern Europe a terrible crime, you MUST concede that this too could not have happened without the war which Hitler started.

  • Snorlax

    Sure, Stalin killed 20 million to Hitler’s 11 million.

    But Hitler didn’t just starve them to death or shoot them. He built a huge industrial apparatus to exploit them and murder them en masse.

    And nobody in the US or Europe is currently singing the praises of Stalin’s liquidation of the Kulaks or the Red Army General Staff in the 30′s.

    But they sure do want to deny that Holocaust. That’s because they all LOVE Hitler and they can’t stand the idea that their beloved hero would have anything to do with that nasty holocaust business. Oh dear.

    Holocaust revisionism is LIBEL. With 11 million victims and their heirs, that’s a really big class action lawsuit.

  • Snorlax

    Denying the Holocaust should be handled as an attack on civilized society. Because when you deny genocide, you allow it to recur.

    There are several ways to fight these dangerous lunatics.

    Institutionalize them in inpatient mental health facilities.

    Imprison them for criminal libel.

    Sue their pants off for civil libel.

    I say, bankrupt them, put them in jail, and when they get out of jail, put them in the funny farm. Don’t let them out until they come out in a box.

    And if I’m a fascist for fighting fascists, as their supporter has called me here, then that just proves my assertion that they are insane.

  • Snorlax

    What insanity indeed. Dave has gone off the deep end of Reich Wingnut propaganda if he thinks Nazis were socialists. Despite having socialist in their name, they were emphatically NOT socialists. Hitler avidly courted the Junkers big business cartels. Hitler was NOT socialist.

    Dave thinks that Holocaust denial is not a crime, but that putting a Holocaust denial LIAR in prison for lying is “hatred”.

    No. making 11 million people into soap is hatred.

    Go away Dave. Go move to Iraq or North Korea or somewhere where they like your kind of thinking.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Emmet, Robert Conquest has been exposed as a hack, and his claims on Soviet death tolls can’t stand up to a simple look at Soviet demographics, taking into account the 25-30 million who died in the war. One reason why many of those countries did not prosecute the people you accuse of crimes is because a great deal of thse supposedly responsible were long dead by 1989. In the case of East Germany it makes sense that those people were not sentenced to so much time since they really committed no crime. Whatever you say about the political repression in East Germany, it cannot compare to the repression of the Nazis, who decided to exterminate entire groups of people based solely on their ethnicity. No socialist regime ever did such.

    @Dave

    Can the neo-Nazi propaganda. First of all, Nazis were not socialists, despite the name of their party. They were helped into power by the money of the leading industrialists of Germany, they banned labor unions and put industrialists at the head of the only legal union, and the capitalists of Western Europe were more than happy to work with them. Plus the idea that Hollywood is soft on Communists is ridiculous. Ever hear of a film called Red Dawn? Too old you say? Guess what- it’s being re-made and it will be released soon. How about Invasion USA, both versions? Enemy at the Gates?

  • Dave

    I think it is critical to understand that both Nazis and the Communist were socialists. Both excelled in atrocities. What I find most disturbing is that few of the Communist atrocities, get much exposure. Hollywood rarely if ever does much to expose these atrocities to the world. But instead applauds sending an old man to jail for the crime of disagreeing with the common point of view. How much hatred went into that action. Today we see Trotsky’s Grandson and advisor to our President. What insanity!

  • Repubs Suck

    Hitler was supposedly a religious man but one who led his own people to commit murder and abuse of one race of people. Sounds like a description of some right-wingnuts in these current patriot/militia groups-love God, but hate somebody!

  • Brandon

    “YOU WILL BELIEVE WHAT WE TELL YOU, WITHOUT QUESTION, OR YOU WILL BE JAILED!” SIEG HEIL

  • Emmett

    Okay, let’s debunk your myths and lies here, Rus.

    “First of all, government workers of the DDR, including Stasi agents but even the last leader of the DDR were in fact prosecuted, tried, and jailed.”

    Nope. There was a handful of trials held for senior East German communists, but if anything, they were symbolic at best. The head of Stasi, Erich Mielke, for instance was imprisoned for less than 2 years before being released on the “grounds of poor health.” That’s far less than what Zundel got, BTW. The message that Germany sent right then was that leading a murderous machine of opression is much less of a crime, than merely stating your personal opinion, no mater how unfavorable it may be. The trial of East German dictator Erich Honecker wasn’t even completed, with him being released halfway into the proceedings. He too was let go due to “poor health.” He and his wife Margot were allowed to move to Chile, where they settled in one of capital Santiago’s gated communities, with high levels of security. I’m guessing this was in case if someone whose family member or loved one was tortured and/or killed by Stasi, who would want to pay them a visit. The amount of humanity shown towards these inhumans is quite sickening, not the least because they all remained unapologetic, dedicated hardline Stalinists to the very end of their lives. And those were the big fish. The Stasi executioners, torturers, spies and informers, those who brought the actual pain, suffering and oppression to the people of East Germany are off the hook, and are allowed to live peacefully without any fear of persecution. And that’s not the least because of stature of limitation imposed upon Stasi crimes, which expired in 1997. Odd, considering that there is no “stature of limitations” for acts Nazi regime, which allows those who’re accused of being Nazi criminals to be tried at anytime. A prime example of hypocricy, where being an agent for one dictatorship makes one liable for persecution, while being an agent for another one means total impunity.

    Now onto your second lie

    “Communists were prosecuted and jailed in the Baltic states as well as Poland.”

    No they weren’t. Most (if not all) of the agents of NKVD (the Soviet equivalent of Nazi SS and Gestapo) who were still living in the Baltic states by the time USSR broke up, fled to Russia after 1991. Or to Israel, if they were Jews. Probably the most notorious one of them was a Lithuanian Jew named Nachmann Dushanski, one of the Soviet perpetrators of Rainiai massacre, which took place in Lithuania, just before the Germans attacked Soviet Union.
    Some background info here;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainiai_massacre

    And here;

    http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/0.....e/5137478/

    Although the article is in in Norwegian language, the photos taken of the victims of the Rainiai killings, tell us all of the brutality and savagery of Soviets, as well as the unimaginable pain and suffering that those victims endured before dying. I suggest anyone who likes to condemn the Baltic states for alleged “Nazi collaboration” during WWII to look up the horrifying details of that mass murder, as well other killings perpetrated by Soviets during their first occupation of the Baltic nations from 1939 till 1941. And then tell me whether or not those Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian men who fought alongside the Germans against Soviets, did so because they sincerely loved Nazism and Adolf Hitler, or because they wanted to avenge the murders (and deportations to Gulag) that their parents, siblings, wives and children suffered at the hands of the Red fascists from USSR? And Nachman Dushanski? He spent the remainder of his life in Israel, where he peacefully kicked the bucket in 2008, never having to answer for his crimes. However, before his death, Dushanski did gave an interview to some Israeli newspaper, where he talked about how he was brought up in a proletariat and staunchly communist Ashkenazi Jewish family, being an agent for NKVD, and openly admitting to torturing and killing Lithuanians who were alleged to have raised objections when their country was occupied and forcibly incorporated into Soviet Union in 1939.

    And your other lie;

    “More importantly, many of the so called “crimes of Communism not only not exceed the proven crimes of the Nazis”

    According to Robert Conquest, Joseph Stalin singlehandedly was responsible for deaths of at least 20 million people. And that was when USSR was in peacetime, before 1941. Those numbers alone easily dwarf by twofold that of the victims’ of the Holocaust, which were at 10 to 11 million people. If you count the massacres and ethnic cleansings that were carried out by Soviets both within and outside the Soviet borders, during and after WWII, the number of victims skyrockets by many millions more. As Stalin himself said, “Death of ten people is a tragedy, but death of milions is a statistic.”

    And last but not least;

    ” there is one obvious reason why the Nazi death toll wasn’t much higher- they were destroyed in 1945.”

    Yes, while the Soviets were allowed to flourish until 1991. It’s obvious why. The Soviets did a much better job than the Nazis, at finding dupes and apologists for them within Western gorvernments. It was that, and the fact that Soviet death camps were located in an extremely far away and isolated Siberia and Arctic Circle, while the German death camps were located right in the middle of the European continent. Therefore, it was much easier for U.S, Britain and rest of the Western nations to close their eyes and look the other way when it came to Soviet crimes, than it was about the Nazi ones.

    Rus, now that your lies and half-truths have been dissected and exposed, the only thing that’s left to say, is that you FAIL.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Lot of ignorance in here. First of all, government workers of the DDR, including Stasi agents but even the last leader of the DDR were in fact prosecuted, tried, and jailed. Communists were prosecuted and jailed in the Baltic states as well as Poland.

    More importantly, many of the so called “crimes of Communism not only not exceed the proven crimes of the Nazis, but in fact take place under non-Communist regimes on a regular basis- though they are not called crimes in those cases.

    Oh, and there is one obvious reason why the Nazi death toll wasn’t much higher- they were destroyed in 1945.

  • Dave

    Well said, Jack. I think it is disgracefull that anyone would applaude the incarseration of an old man, for 7 years no less, at the end of his life because he failed to agree with my view of history. What can be more hatefull than that? Isn’t that what caused the Holocaust?

  • Jack

    What must all repressive governments do well first before they become completely tyrannical?

    You got it, criminalize speech and information so that only their propaganda is available.

    Even Deborah Lipstadt (that is the biggest Holocaust defender you can find) has stated publicly that she does not agree with the criminalization of the thing she fights.

    Snorlax shows the typical reaction of a fascist:
    Someone said something I don’t like so let’s incarcerate them.

  • Dave

    Emmett, makes a very valid point. The past 100 year history of Communism, far exceeds the crimes of Germany under the Nazis. Why no “war crimes” trials. But as Molosovich (sp?) said they never try the winners.

    Such ecesses for “political thinking” does nothing to promote the cause of Israel or the Jewish people. If anything it institutionalizes such hatred, by those who would deny free speach.

  • skinnyminny

    Lee, you speak of “treatment in civilized” world for mentally ill! I suppose that could be an alternative, however, here in the U.S. people are fighting against any type health reform. What other alternative will we, in the U.S. have – besides the treatment programs offered in jail/prison?

  • Emmett

    You can get far less jail time for commiting rape or aggravated assult, than simply expressing your opinion in Germany, no matter how unfavorable it may be. I wonder how many years you can get in Germany for denying Communist crimes? Or for being a torturer and executioner in Stasi? Hell, if somebody were to demand that the East German Stasi agents who are still alive to be tried for their crimes, immediately the typical response would be how those sickly elderly Communist criminals are unfit to stand trial, and/or that “reconciliation and not prosecution” is the answer. Hell, the German authorities won’t even let the survivors of the horrific East German prisons or those whose loved ones were murdered by Stasi, to at least come over and spit their former tormentors in the face. There never has been any kind of punishment whatsoever meted out against the agents of East German secret police, unless one counts a handful of individual vigilante attacks.

  • Steven B. McClean

    Denial propoganda and outright lies make me consider the question of censorship. Jefferson once stated that if given the choice of a government without Free Press or Free Press without government that he would opt for the latter. However, it cannot bedeenied that Hitler’s continual expounding hate, pounding day after day into the Free Press and German peoples made a difference and the results were seen throughout the world. It is a tough question for me…who censor the censors? Who who watch the watchers?

  • Lee

    “Holocaust denial is a criminal offense in many European countries, is tort libel in Britain, and should be regarded as evidence of mental illness in any civilized nation.” – Snorlax

    That’s interesting that you want to see mentally ill people thrown in prison Snorlax. Wouldn’t treatment be something given to these people in “civilized nations”?

    Interestingly, civilized nations believe in freedom of speech – or at least they once did.

    But relax – the Holocaust story only has about 20 years left to live. If you bother to read comments posted on news sites and YouTube links, most people are not buying it anymore. I hate to break it to you.

  • against intolerance

    the only reason I had the slightest interest in learning about what the “holocaust deniers” had to say is because of the prohibition against their books. I certainly have never checked out books claiming that Kennedy was assasinated by a conspiracy, or 9/11 is an inside job, or the earth is flat. However, when I noticed the HYSTERIA against the deniers, and the THOUGHTCRIME laws PROHIBITING people from even thinking certain thoughts, I immediately sensed that if “Holocaust denial” was really as absurd and baseless as people claim, then nobody would NEED to ban these books.

    So I started reading the materials, and sure enough I discovered all sorts of inconvenient facts, in addition to having straightened out all sorts of misconceptions I had. For instance, “deniers” do not deny that Jews were put in concentration camps, and that many, perhaps millions, died of disease, hunger, unauthorized murders, and other cruel acts against them. What they deny is that there was a coordinated, planned, industrial effort to slaughter all the Jews in special “extermination” camps in Poland. THAT is what they deny. And in fact, the evidence is less than solid.

    What are you REALLY afraid of, o intolerant ones?

  • Dave

    Boy what venom and hate would justfy putting an old man in jail for 7 years because he does not buy your view of history. Makes me ask who has committed the “Hate crime”?

  • Carrie

    Free nations do not throw people into prison for 5 years for taking an unpopular stand or questioning the accuracy of certain aspects of history. Jailing revisionists reminds me a bit of tossing people into prison and worse for questioning the idea that the sun revolves around the earth. You people don’t see it in that way because you are extremists who are fantically devoted to PC madness, “hate laws” and such.

  • jjohnson805

    you communists/progressives are a riot. snorlax, i think u belong in a padded cell w/ a straightjacket. stop white genocide.

  • watchout

    Check out the forum on this site: lots of twisted hatred masquerading as pop culture…

    http://www.vigilantcitizen.com

  • Snorlax

    Looks like the moron DID try to get Canadian citizenship and was turned down TWICE. Good for Canada.

    But what’s really stupid of him is that he ruined his permanent residency, which is almost as good as citizenship, by moving to the US.

    These Holocaust deniers are not known for brainpower.

  • Snorlax

    Holocaust denial is a criminal offense in many European countries, is tort libel in Britain, and should be regarded as evidence of mental illness in any civilized nation.

    I think these holocaust deniers are a danger to themselves and others and belong in straitjackets in rubber rooms.

    And they’re not mentally well until they disavow their delusional belief in the “Holohoax”.

    The Holocaust was REAL. Holocaust deniers are delusional.

  • Carter

    One reason why I have NEVER given an once of credence to the holocaust deniers is that my father (now dead) fought in WWII and w/ Patton’s 3rd Army SAW the Camps.
    They were real. They were death camps and the horror he saw he spoke of only twice.
    The bodies were stacked like cord-wood and bulldozers were need to move the mountains of a Hellish nightmare,
    That is until Patton made the locals and the camp guards who had been caught and those that were too slow to run away, deal with bodies – beyond description. These people where too beaten down to even speak. Some that did so, whispered things he could not say without stopping himself & tightening his jaw.

  • Ruslan Amirkhanov

    Genius lived in Canada for 40 years without seeking legal residency or citizenship via naturalization? He clearly deserves what he got.