Hatewatch Tweets
Hatewatch is managed by the staff of the Intelligence Report, an investigative magazine published by the Alabama-based civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center.
Ex-Gay Advocates: ‘Change’ Depends on the Definition
It depends on what your definition of is … is.
We all recall President Bill Clinton’s parsing of words during the Monica Lewinsky scandal.
Now, the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), composed of psychoanalysts and other therapists who believe that gay men and lesbians suffer can be “cured” through therapy, is engaging in a similar two-step.
NARTH, in a new statement on its website, argues that any opposition to the idea that a person’s sexuality can change through treatment is based on a faulty understanding of what “change” means.
According to the statement, “Those who are highly pessimistic regarding change in sexual orientation appear to have assumed a categorical view of change, which is neither in keeping with how sexual orientation has been defined in the literature nor with how change is conceptualized for nearly all other psychological challenges. … With this in mind, NARTH remains committed to protecting the rights of clients with unwanted same-sex attractions to pursue change as well as the rights of clinicians to provide such psychological care.”
So let’s get this straight –– change is possible, and NARTH can offer it, but let’s all agree on what change means? Confused? So are we.
What is unclear about the statement is whether it is a defiant manifesto to address a sociopolitical climate in which the change it promises is under increased scrutiny, or a clarification for prospective patients on what to expect from reparative therapy. Maybe it’s both. Either way, one thing is abundantly clear: NARTH remains defiantly proud and categorically committed its dubious premise.
“Change” is possible, NARTH says –– so long as we all know what change means.
on January 31st, 2012 at 12:50 pm
Aron & others know that I’m 1 of the ‘homophobes’ who is not Judeo-Christian who believes it’s best to find a cure for gay/lesbian activities whether they do so because of biology (if it’s inborn then it’s a birth defect) or if they do so because of reaction to sex abuse esp. homosexual rape in youth. Gays & lesbians do have a choice as far as their sexual behaviors are concerned & it’s best for them to be celibate until a cure is found. Unsure if sexual orientation can change but if a gay/lesbian wants to change to straight behavior or celibacy, then yes, repair therapy must be available to them. Repair therapy contiuously advances & they could eventually find a cure for homosexuality. Repair therapy for gays & lesbians who want to be straight must be available just as repair therapy is available for drug junkies & drunkards who want to quit drugs. Gay/lesbian activities are synonymous to crack use.
There’s something which is worse than homosexuality & it’s sex change mutilations. My view is abolish sex change maimings. Most gay/lesbian groups are hostile to free will when it comes to repair therapy for gays/lesbians who want to be straight yet most are apologists for sex change mutilations which is maiming a man to make him a fake woman or in Chastity Bono’s case viceversa. I oppose sex changes for the same reason as I’m against a Dr. trying to surgically change a man into a dog such as surgically putting a fake tail, changing voice to barking because he thinks he is a dog instead of a man. Man is man, woman is woman, cat is cat & dog is dog. Sex changes are a sad mutilation of nature & we must abolish this. If a Black person believed he is White or viceversa, I would be against a Dr. trying to change his skin color.
on January 31st, 2012 at 12:52 pm
Something which Southern Poverty Law Center, Aron, etc. overlook is that people such as Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron share my view that sex must be limited to penis/vaginal sex between man & woman. Most straights don’t take part in sodomy or anal, even if gay/lesbian groups say otherwise. Sex is mainly supposed to be about the woman pleasuring the man with viceversa minor. Hopefully this language is allowed for this post but I’m also not a believer in oral sex, but that if it happens, it’s only supposed to be a woman giving a man oral but not viceversa-man’s mouth is not meant to do oral. Also I agree with what Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi did when he paid young women for sex because after a woman hits menopause, it’s best not to do her anymore. There you have my views on sex-limit it to penis vaginal sex between a man & woman, that sex is mainly supposed to be about the woman pleasuring the man & that once a woman hits menopause, it’s best to not have sex with her.
on January 31st, 2012 at 1:01 pm
My goodness, how horrible! You mean there are actually normal people out there just like me, who don’t want to live in a bizzare nightmare world where everything that is clean and pure and decent is twisted into something monsterous? I can’t believe it. LOL! I’m laughing hysterically now! I’m about ready to fall off this chair! LOL! LOL! I think I will join NARTH. Sign me up! LOL!
on January 31st, 2012 at 3:54 pm
Funisnow,
Man, I’ve never ever, EVER met someone with your views, I mean, I’m betting you are without any college education, but one would think simply growing up (you’re not 7 I’m assuming) would bestow SOME understanding of social structure, human behavior and psychology.
I’m guessing from your prudish views of sexuality, and narrow definition of what is “natural” that you bring these views from some strange sub culture. That said, I have no problem with you having these views, the world is moving past your views, and much like any evolution, you have the choice, to adapt, or just wait out your days until the reaper takes you
on January 31st, 2012 at 5:55 pm
Dave,
If you went to Moscow and rode the subway, with your attitude, you’d get the shyt kicked out of you by some real men, and you would very quickly puppy down and correct your behavior and start acting normal.
on February 1st, 2012 at 12:09 am
The SPLC certainly hasn’t overlooked “Dr.” Paul Cameron. Everyone knows he’s a damn fraud, so I don’t even know why you’d bother coming on here quoting his “insight”.
on February 1st, 2012 at 4:17 am
Funtsnow:
Just to make it clear, Drummnd Cameron’s research has been shown to be shoddy at best and even faulty through fudging the numbers in peer review after peer review. To cite him as you main source indicates, at best that your end game has been decided in advance. A google search on him with find that to be the case. So, cite him all you desire, but forgive us if we are unimpressed.
on February 1st, 2012 at 7:59 am
Funisnow, I’m just wondering what bothers you so much to know that people are having different kinds of sex other than heterosexual/vaginal penetrative.
on February 1st, 2012 at 8:11 am
Jason, you’ve never been to Moscow, Russia, or even Europe. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
on February 1st, 2012 at 11:39 am
Jason wouldn’t know a real man if he was buggered by him.
on February 1st, 2012 at 11:57 am
Jason Smith said,
on January 31st, 2012 at 1:01 pm
My goodness, how horrible! You mean there are actually normal people out there just like me, who don’t want to live in a bizzare nightmare world where everything that is clean and pure and decent is twisted into something monsterous?
-Yes, where racial supremacists, sexists and homophobes don’t exist! Oh, wait, sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt that inspirational rant between you and the demonic denizens between your eardrums…
” I can’t believe it. LOL! I’m laughing hysterically now!”
-Believe it mister! People with I.Q.’s higher than school zone speed levels are gonna take over the world. But don’t worry, their will ALWAYS be a SPECIAL place for people like YOU (i.e. wherever Bin Laden’s corpse resides now)!
I’m about ready to fall off this chair! LOL! LOL! I think I will join NARTH. Sign me up! LOL!
-Make sure to inquire them about some psychiatric assistance as well, Socioapthy and mental retardation are indeed two other ‘conditional ailments’ that can thankfully be treated and/or ‘changed’, depending upon the speaker’s redundant definition…
on February 1st, 2012 at 11:59 am
Ruslan,
How do you know I’ve never been to Russia? You can’t read my mind. You don’t know anything about me. In small cities in Russia I’ve seen and smelled the horrible factory pollution. I’ve seen packs of wild dogs that run loose on the streets. I’ve experienced the public toilets, which are incredibly filthy. I never understand why these Russians think they are so smart, when they can’t even invent a proper toilet!
on February 1st, 2012 at 12:02 pm
Jason Smith said,
on January 31st, 2012 at 5:55 pm
“Dave,
If you went to Moscow and rode the subway, with your attitude, you’d get the shyt kicked out of you by some real men, and you would very quickly puppy down and correct your behavior and start acting normal.”
-Apparently another idiot failed to graduate college or cheated to get a GED! I know quite a few English professors who’d kick the ‘shyt’ out of you for that sort of monkey mangling grammar.
P.S.-You know they have Civil Union laws over in Moscow and Russia regarding the LGBT community, they’re probably quite a bit more accepting of it than the omnipotently arrogant & charmingly behind-the-curve Americans are…
on February 1st, 2012 at 12:19 pm
“How do you know I’ve never been to Russia? You can’t read my mind.”
I didn’t need to read your mind, you practically “told” me. Here’s a tip about the internet- Don’t try to bluff; eventually you’ll get caught.
“You don’t know anything about me.”
I know a lot more than you think.
” In small cities in Russia I’ve seen and smelled the horrible factory pollution. I’ve seen packs of wild dogs that run loose on the streets. I’ve experienced the public toilets, which are incredibly filthy.”
“Small cities,” huh? These conditions could describe literally hundreds of locations throughout the entire world, much less Russia.
” I never understand why these Russians think they are so smart, when they can’t even invent a proper toilet!”
Whoa, are you insulting your “white” brothers and sisters? Looks like white unity is cracking up already!
In the future, please don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.
on February 1st, 2012 at 12:21 pm
funinsnow said,
on January 31st, 2012 at 12:52 pm
“Something which Southern Poverty Law Center, Aron, etc. overlook is that people such as Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron share my view that sex must be limited to penis/vaginal sex between man & woman.”
-Yeah if only the history of the world and mankind in general didn’t completely disregard that fanatically false thesis you’ve typed regarding sex. Where does oral and anal come into that, especially between heterosexuals? Masturbation? Miscegenation (which is becoming so much more common)? Rape, Bestiality, Necrophilia and Pedophilia? All of which are most often done by the same blowhard Reich-wingers that are so obsessed with what everyone else is doing behind closed doors because of their militant ‘masculinity’ and sexual self-confidence (*eyeroll*)!
“Most straights don’t take part in sodomy or anal, even if gay/lesbian groups say otherwise.”
-They only keep saying what every scientist, psychologist and professional academia have been re-iterating for decades since Kinsey’s breakthroughs into sexuality. It’s also (straight) African-American females who have the highest rate of HIV-infection, not LGBT people; and 1 in 5 straight people whom have the other litany of STD’s (probably because they’re so much cockier about using proper protection)…
“Sex is mainly supposed to be about the woman pleasuring the man with viceversa minor.”
-You sound just like those fundamentalist Baptist preachers who said we’d all go blind and senile from touching ourselves. Or be damned to hell for eternity for non-marital sex of ANY sort (apparently meaning 90%+ of Americans will be in attendance than!)
“Hopefully this language is allowed for this post but I’m also not a believer in oral sex, but that if it happens, it’s only supposed to be a woman giving a man oral but not viceversa-man’s mouth is not meant to do oral.”
-Sexist, much Mr. Snow? Why should the women who have to carry those kids for months and do all sort of domestic chore bend over backwards and forwards to your chauvanistic, B.S. view of what ‘is and isn’t’ sex. Good luck staying married longterm to someone who knows their worth than…
“Also I agree with what Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi did when he paid young women for sex because after a woman hits menopause, it’s best not to do her anymore.”
-Is PM Silvio Berlusconi a Devry/Phoenix University alumni? I’ve never seen or heard any mainstream elite in teh appropriate fields remotely suggest that, unless your talking about pregnancy complications. Otherwise, that statement is about grounded in reality as my aforementioned point on masturbation…
“There you have my views on sex-limit it to penis vaginal sex between a man & woman, that sex is mainly supposed to be about the woman pleasuring the man & that once a woman hits menopause, it’s best to not have sex with her.”
Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, Mick Jagger, Ted Nugent, Anthony Wiener, The Terminator and Hugh Hefner! Because the world is just swarming with women willing to give their self-dignity for a certain cash amount and a few minutes of coital extasy; make sure the wifey or girlfriend doesn’t know, unless you or her are into threesomes…
on February 1st, 2012 at 12:29 pm
funinsnow said,
on January 31st, 2012 at 12:52 pm
“Something which Southern Poverty Law Center, Aron, etc. overlook is that people such as Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron share my view that sex must be limited to penis/vaginal sex between man & woman.”
For those with beyond Kindergarden reading comprehension, the SPLC indeed has a full profile and career report on ‘Dr.’ Quack Cameron and his non-existent ‘hypothesis (read:bigoted opinion(s)) of homosexuality; the fact that you cited him in such admirable terms probably indicates the level of regard, if any, we should make to the reeking ignorance of your ‘beliefs’, if that’s what you call your ‘femi-nazi’ talking points…
on February 1st, 2012 at 12:49 pm
“Aron & others know that I’m 1 of the ‘homophobes’”(funinsnow)
-Obviously manifestly true! But you were saying..
“…who is not Judeo-Christian who believes it’s best to find a cure for gay/lesbian activities whether they do so because of biology (if it’s inborn then it’s a birth defect) or if they do so because of reaction to sex abuse esp. homosexual rape in youth.” (funinsnow)
-Not inplausible, as many so-called Christians are ironically some of the more intolerant and foolish folks in creation. You apparently missed that World Health Organization’s official decree last century that sexual orientation isn’t a mental illness of any kind. Breathtaking ignorance of basic knowledge sadly continues to be for so many though, it seems…
“Gays & lesbians do have a choice as far as their sexual behaviors are concerned & it’s best for them to be celibate until a cure is found.”(funinsnow)
-So do all straight and bi-sexual people for that matter; doesn’t stop them from raping, molesting, commiting infidelity and masturbating though does it? Or contracting the supermajority of STDs when contraception is so readily available. If your saying the LGBT community should take pointers from their heterosexual peers on their so-called disparate sexual behaviors or decisive celibacy, they should probably call it quits from the get-go, since they are often dramatically and gawdawfully worse in all those aspects…
“Unsure if sexual orientation can change…”(funinsnow)
-This epiphany undermines every other argument you’ve made thus far, interestingly enough. It can’t really in any case as of writing, but I again, disgress…
“…but if a gay/lesbian wants to change to straight behavior or celibacy, then yes, repair therapy must be available to them.”(funinsnow)
-Yeah, just don’t shove it down the throats of everyone who doesn’t agree or feel comfortable with enforced change of THEIR lives that is nobody else’s business, Fair enough?
“Repair therapy contiuously advances & they could eventually find a cure for homosexuality. Repair therapy for gays & lesbians who want to be straight must be available just as repair therapy is available for drug junkies & drunkards who want to quit drugs. Gay/lesbian activities are synonymous to crack use.”(funinsnow)
-This would almost be as hilarious as those Tea Party idiots who want to ‘edit out’ slavery and negative race relations from U.S. History textbooks, but it seems this sort of purposeful, dead serious know-nothingism is quite acceptable in your view. Equating homosexuality and its apparently ‘assigned’ activities, which are just as prevalent on the opposite end of the spectrum are about as synonymous with crack use as Intelligent Design is to Evolution and the origins of man and Earth. Your debate is nothing of the sort really, because no matter what your sexual practices and preferences may be, you can ‘stop’ yourself from addiction to them but the drive and desire will still be present until the moment a person expires. No amount of Eugenics will change the simple fact that what your attempting to morally justify is straight up identity rape and inhumane marginalization. Your entitled to hold these opinions under the 1st amendment, to be fair, but please don’t take that as freedom from criticism or the greater Truth of the Matter…
on February 1st, 2012 at 12:52 pm
^And for the record, try telling any of this nonsense to Dick Cheyney’s daughter, the most conservatively Christian’ lesbian to ever walk the planet, both of whom are pro-LGBT rights and simultaneous Right-Wingers! ‘Now how did THAT gene pool result from U.S. history’s most reactionary and intolerant Vice President?
on February 1st, 2012 at 4:51 pm
“Repair therapy contiuously advances & they could eventually find a cure for homosexuality.”
Y’see, the problem there is you think that homosexuality is a disease. And that marks you as very, very, very stupid. Repair therapy destroys the people it is supposed to help. The best way to help homosexuals is to help them accept who they are with tolerance and love, not torment them into being “normal.”
on February 2nd, 2012 at 9:21 am
“Normal” is a number. It is nornal for X% of the population to be heterosexual.It is normal for Y% to not be heterosexual.The hetero population will never reach 100%
on February 2nd, 2012 at 9:57 am
Read the replies & not surprised. My guess is those who posted don’t know that I’m not a Judeo-Christian. My parents came from mostly Hindu India & I’m a non-religous person who sees something wrong with gay/lesbian activities-see it as the same as crack smoking. Hinduism is neutral on homosexuality/lesbianism & a main reason I’m now non-religious is because Hinduism is neutral on gay/lesbian activities. With Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron, I don’t care what the APA & AMA says about him. Both the APA & American Medical Assoc. (AMA) are evil groups & it’s best to treat them with contempt. Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron is right on the harms of gay/lesbian sexual activities. Gay/lesbian sexual activities are useless just as drug use is. Gays/lesbians have higher rates of smoking drugs, anti-social conduct, etc. Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron has spoken in Poland, Slovenia & there would be groups interested in hearing him speak in India. While most people who are against gay/lesbian actvities are often Judeo-Christian, there are non-Judeo Christians such as myself who agree with the Judeo-Christians because we understand that gayism/lesbianism are bad for health & again, it’s best for a gay/lesbian to be celibate.
on February 2nd, 2012 at 10:25 am
Gee,sex is addictive,who woulda thought anyone who likes it should stop. That is just not normal.
on February 2nd, 2012 at 12:02 pm
I thought this site was moderated. There’s some of the most filthy anti-gay trash on here that I have read in a long time.
on February 2nd, 2012 at 12:03 pm
There is nothing wrong with me. Instead of asking me to change, why don’ t you?
on February 2nd, 2012 at 1:12 pm
“Both the APA & American Medical Assoc. (AMA) are evil groups & it’s best to treat them with contempt. ”
So your best argument here is that these professional associations are “evil.” Please explain how they are evil and what they get out of this. I’d like to know their motivations for supporting a diabolical global gay conspiracy.
“Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron is right on the harms of gay/lesbian sexual activities.”
Then he shouldn’t have trouble passing peer review then, should he?
” Gay/lesbian sexual activities are useless just as drug use is.”
1. You could say the same about all but procreative sex.
2. Drug use is extremely useful. It depends on the drugs.
“Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron has spoken in Poland, Slovenia & there would be groups interested in hearing him speak in India.”
You know who else spoke in Poland one time? Heinrich Himmler. What the hell is your point? Nutcases get speaking engagements all around the world.
I got that you’re not Christian but your thoughts on gays are clearly just as irrational.
on February 2nd, 2012 at 1:52 pm
People who are profoundly freaked out by homosexuality are generally dealing with their own identity issues and insecurities. I think it is possible that funisnow fits into that category.
on February 2nd, 2012 at 1:56 pm
It’s no surprise that you’d raise Nazi Herr Heinrich Himmler & try to compare Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron to him. With gay/lesbian sexuality, there hasn’t been neutrality on this for a long time. Most mainstream medical psychological groups since the 1970s but esp. from the late 1990s onwards are pro-gay ideologues. People who speak on the harms of gay/lesbian activities such as Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron, Dr. Julie-Harren Hamilton or Dr. NE Whitehead get condemned because politics have won over science on this. People who take part in gay/lesbian activities have more copathologies.
Those of us who see something wrong with gay/lesbian activities don’t care what the American Medical Association & APA says. The American Medical Association is an apologist for sex change maimings so that gives me the only reason to know their views are useless. Gay groups would oppose repair therapy to treat homosexuality/lesbianism no matter what the success is. Just because the American Medical Association & APA are made up of Drs. & psychologists doesn’t change the fact that it’s best to ignore them. Drs. & psychologists also have their own biases & again, mainstream psychology has long lost neutrality on this, incl. the ‘peer reviewers’ of Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron. Gay/lesbian activities need to be seen the same way as drug use is & it’s best to repeat to ask gays/lesbians to be celibate-regardless of orientation change until a cure for gay/lesbian sexual activities is eventually found.
on February 2nd, 2012 at 2:31 pm
Gregory, it’s typical that you’d accuse some1 who is against gay/lesbian sexual activities to be insecure of their own sexuality-you’re not the 1st 1 to imply I’m a ‘repressed homosexual.’ Guess that means I must be a ‘repressed crack smoker’ because I’m against drug use.
But I won’t disagree with you Gregory that there are hypocrites such as Larry Craig who said he is against homosexuality but then was caught proposing to a cop in a Minnesota airport bathroom. I want hypocrites on the gay topic exposed. But unless you have proof, it’s an ad homenim (though you didn’t say it to me) to accuse some1 who is against gay/lesbian activities to be closet gays. Even some gays & lesbians have said that your accusation not be made unless you have proof to back it up because most people who are against gay/lesbian activities such as myself are because we see something wrong with gay/lesbian activities. Your turn now.
on February 2nd, 2012 at 4:11 pm
funinsnow,
Are you one of those Nazis that escaped being caught or
are you just a psycho that escaped from an insane asslylum?
There was a time when left-handedness was thought to be
abnormal and thererfore needing to be cured. Do you agree with that too?
You are aware, aren’t you, that there is an over-population problem in the world, one which is only going to get worse if people keep begatting at the rate they have been? Hasn’t it ever occured to you or any other allegedly intelligent (but no common sense) gay-hating extremists that maybe homosexuality is God’s or nature’s way of controling the population from getting out of hand the way it has in some places and will continue to if people keep begatting at the present rate? Are you so full of hate that a thought like that could never cross your mind?
And by the way, Christianity (belief in Christ and His teachings) is not against gay people. Right wing nut case
fundamentalists claim to be Christian but they are practicing Old Testament Judaism and their own ideas, not
what Christ taught. Every time any of them use the name of Jesus or God to mistreat someone, they are lying and throwing dirt on the name of Jesus and giving all Christians a bad name.
on February 2nd, 2012 at 4:21 pm
My turn? I’m perfectly willing to take you on your word that you are merely a bigot. However, I think Shakespeare had it right when he said the lady doth protest too much.
on February 2nd, 2012 at 4:49 pm
Oh, one more thing, funinsnow, how would you know that “Most straights don’t take part in sodomy or anal”?
I don’t know about anal but I’ve heard from people who should know, that a lot of heterosexual men really like oral sex and some have sex with protitutes for that reason if their wives won’t do it. How do you know what sex acts
ANYONE engages in? I bet you think all lesbians engage in oral sex, don’t you? If so, that just shows how much you
don’t know.
on February 3rd, 2012 at 1:42 am
“Guess that means I must be a ‘repressed crack smoker’ because I’m against drug use.”
Faulty analogy fail. Human sexuality and drug use are totally different things.
on February 3rd, 2012 at 4:42 am
Gregory, yes I’m ‘bigoted’ against gay/lesbian activities just as I’m ‘bigoted’ against drug use. Ellen Myers with left handedness, if a cure for this is discovered, it wouldn’t be controversial. What typically would be said if a cure were found for left handedness is that they don’t see the need for why a cure was found, but that they don’t care. I don’t regard left handedness as a disease, but I also wouldn’t lose sleep if a cure were found for it.
Gay/lesbian activities however, I do see it as something which needs to be cured just as my eg. of drug junkyism goes. What I don’t understand is why you should care 1 way or the other if a cure for this is discovered? Gay/lesbian activities, sodomy or anal, has been with us since time has started. I don’t expect them to go away anytime soon. But if in the future a cure were found for gay/lesbian activities incl. though unproven interfering in the womb to guarantee that a baby will take part in straight activities only in adulthood, then the world is a better place without gay & lesbian activities. The world also would be a better place without sex change maimings. In fact the world would be a better place without so many bad things.
on February 3rd, 2012 at 7:07 am
that sex is mainly supposed to be about the woman pleasuring the man & that once a woman hits menopause, it’s best to not have sex with her.”
You may be non-religious but you seem to side with the male supremist pigs who got into power years ago and refuse to leave.
on February 3rd, 2012 at 2:15 pm
funinsnow, the world would be a better place if people like you and all other insane, wannabe dictator extremists weren’t in it.
on February 3rd, 2012 at 2:20 pm
also, funinsnow, just as left-handedness is not a disease,
neither is love and physical attraction to other human beings. The point I was trying to make, which you eveidently don’t have enough reasoning ability to pick up on, is that like homosexuality, there was time, and not to
long ago, that left-handedness was considered to be “abnormal” and something that needed to be changed.
on February 3rd, 2012 at 2:35 pm
One other thing, funinsnow, if sex is only for the pleasure of males, then why were females made capable of feeling
sexual pleasure too?
on February 3rd, 2012 at 4:39 pm
Ellen Myers, let me say that I used to be neutral on homosexuality but in 2005 changed my view on this. I don’t care if the American Medical Association says that homosexual/lesbian activities isn’t a disease-still go ahead & cure it. You haven’t said anything which hasn’t been considered by me. It’s a fact that 33% of gays report homosexual rape in youth. Why people take part in gay/lesbian activities is the same as why people get heart disease. Some people take part in gay/lesbian activities because maybe it’s because of biological defect such as hormones or if it’s genes a birth defect. Then some people take part in gay/lesbian activities because of childhood sex abuse reaction. It doesn’t take an expert to know that sex abuse esp. homosexual rape in youth can mess up the mind. There are people who take part in gay activities in adulthood due to reaction from homosexual rapes in youth.
I have never heard a straight man blame sex abuse or any other bad thing for the reason he has sex with women or is married to a woman with children. Yet I’ve heard some gays & lesbians say that they think sex abuse in youth is a reason why they take part in gay/lesbian activities & it’s hard to know how sex abuse impacted mind. You can rerun again & again that homosexuality isn’t a disease, but again, I say go ahead & cure it even if the AMA says otherwise. Unsure what else we can say because we’ll mainly repeat what we’ve said so many times already on this topic.
on February 3rd, 2012 at 11:39 pm
I have to cut in because this has gotten ridiculous. The only one repeating anything here is you, Funinsnow. You are acting like a little child with his fingers in his ears. I HATE THE AMA AND APA BECAUSE THEY’RE EVIL LALALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU LALALALALALA.
That’s some powerful logic right there. Also, what happened in 2005 to turn you into the beacon of human compassion you now present yourself to be?
on February 3rd, 2012 at 11:48 pm
Funisnow, you sound like a lonely, angry person. If anyone needs a cure for something, it’s you, brah.
on February 4th, 2012 at 6:49 am
funinsnow,
There’s nothing that can be said to you, since you hold positions based on your own preconceived ideas and the ranting of discredited ‘researchers’ who lie, twist data, and fabricate evidence for their own preconceived ideas. You also reject out of hand the vastly larger group of researchers who disagree with your position regardless of their evidence, essentially stating that unless scientific study agrees with you, it isn’t valid and is, in fact, “evil”.
There’s not even a trace of logic to dispute there.
As for your hopes for a cure, keep right on hoping, but there’s a reason that mainstream medicine has given up on it. Sexual orientation isn’t a disease, and its biological and social causes are complicated enough that the possibility of finding a single gay gene is virtually nil.
As for sex abuse, lots of straight men blame their own abusive behaviors on being abused, and lots of bigots blame homosexuality on abuse, but the latter link is easily disproved by yet more “evil” science. It turns out the rate of abuse (physical and sexual) experienced by adults when they were children is the same in the straight and gay community, so however else it harms people, sexual abuse cannot and does not change sexual orientation on any scale large enough to be statistically noteworthy.
on February 4th, 2012 at 10:09 pm
If you guys don’t think you would like that sort of thing I suggest you just don’t do them. Also mark the date on an old calender when you “chose” to be attracted to the opposite gender, as I’m sure you remember such an important decision. After you’ve done that, stop telling other people how to live their life, because you don’t know squat.
on February 5th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
Aron, yes I’ve repeated but asking me the same thing will get you same answers. You’re wrong by saying I’m the only 1 who repeats. Whether it’s SPLC, Huffington Post, Pam Spaulding’s House Blend or other pro-gay/lesbian sites, they repeat the same things as those who are against gay/lesbian activities such as I do. Incidentally with Pam Spaulding, she is opposed to repair therapy to treat gay/lesbian activities yet she is an apologist for sex change mutilations.
But if you want to know why I changed my views on gay/lesbian activities in 2005 from neutral to against gay/lesbian activities it’s because of thinking about it-reading Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron, Dr. NE Whitehead, Dr. Julie-Harren Hamilton, Dr. Josephn Nicolosi, etc.-people who get condemned because they give views on gay/lesbian activities which gay groups hate. Mainstream science used to support repair therapy to treat gay/lesbianism but from 1973 onwards & esp. since the early 1990s, mainstream science has become pro-gay/lesbian that they don’t believe or are hostile to free will when it comes to repair therapy for gays/lesbians who want to be straight.
During the 1970s, Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron was praised for his studies which found that people who have pets live happier longer lives & his studies on the dangers of 2nd hand smoke. But he & others like him have been condemned for their studies on the dangers of gay/lesbian activities because again, politics have won over science when it comes to homosexuality. Yes, Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron has his bias against homosexuality, but again, homosexuality is a topic where mainstream science has long lost neutrality on. People who take part in gay/lesbian activities have higher copathology rates such as anti-social conduct, domestic violence (most violence against gays are gays & lesbians bashing or killing their gay & lesbian lover in domestic fights) suicides, drug junkyism, etc. Now gay/lesbian groups & the AMA will typically say that it’s societal attitudes which causes these copathologies, but Dr. NE Whitehead has found that even in pro-gay societies such as Holland, the copathologies don’t differ much as in the U.S., so it’s more complex & complicated. Yes I’ve repeated but I don’t care what the American Medical Association says in their apologism for homosexuality & there are many others who don’t care what the AMA says because the AMA is pro-gay/lesbian ideologues.
on February 6th, 2012 at 3:49 pm
funinsnow,
You don’t seem to understand. We don’t consider the researchers you present as authorities on the topic of sexuality to be bigots unworthy of mention because they have negative views toward homosexuality.
We dismiss them because every single study they present in their attempt to prove that homosexuality is a disorder, is harmful, causes disease, etc, is so flawed, either in its methods or the way it draws its conclusions, that from a scientific standpoint these studies are worthless. That has nothing to do with who publishes the paper, or endorses it, and everything to do with the actual data and methods which the studies use.
You’ll convince nobody who doesn’t already agree with you about anything by simply claiming that the AMA is evil because it supports gay people. If you want us to take the man you present as an expert seriously, show us one of Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron’s studies that back up your biases with reputable data.
Given how much of his work I’ve already read, and how scientifically lacking all of said work was, you might have your work cut out for you there, but I’ll wait.
Or if you prefer, I can present to you some of the studies you claim are biased in favor of gay folks, and you can demonstrate the bias in those studies.
PS: The scientific community didn’t “change their mind” about therapy to change sexual orientation because they hate free will, they concluded from the evidence that, at least for the vast majority of cases, it just doesn’t work. Becoming celibate or marrying a member of the opposite sex is not the same thing as becoming heterosexual. Hence the enormous failure rate of such therapies and the growing number of former ex-gay proponents that have gone public with the fact that the therapies didn’t change their physical or emotional attractions, and in many cases were unable to even change their sexual habits in the long term.
on February 6th, 2012 at 5:56 pm
Richard L, you know you’re not saying much which I haven’t considered but I’ll answer you. Sexual orientation that you, etc. write about is a minor topic to me. Even if homosexual orientation doesn’t change, yes, it’s best for gays to be celibate if not take part in straight activities as it’s ending gay/lesbian sexual activities regardless of gay/lesbian orientation change because it’s behavior not orientation which is the topic here. I don’t know Richard L what you’re definition of gay/lesbian is, but I use the simple definition which is knowingly & voluntarily taking part in same sex behaviors regardless of orientation. That means if some1 of homosexual orientation never has gay activities & dies a virgin or only taking part in straight activities, then yes, by behavior definition he would be straight though his orientation would be gay but to repeat, sexual behavior not orientation is the main topic for me.
While only you know what your intent or true feelings, I believe people esp. the AMA is lying or have repeated the lie so many times that they believe it when they say that there’s no link between homosexual rape in youth & him doing homosexual activities in adulthood. It’s a fact that if a boy is repeatedly homosexually raped such as by a priest that he will take part in gay activities in adulthood because he believes gay activities is normal based on what he learned from homosexual rape. OK, gay may not be his true orientation but to repeat, he would be gay by sexual behavior definition as in his adulthood he knowingly & voluntarily takes part in gay activities. 33% of gays report homosexual rape in youth & it would be fair to say that some of the gays are sexual behavior gays but not sexual orientation gays. Yes, I’m repeating myself but my view is I don’t care if the AMA says homosexuality isn’t a disease-go ahead & cure homosexuality. Until a cure for homosexual orientation is found, it’s best to ask gays/lesbians to be celibate because it’s about ending gay/lesbian activities which I regard as bad. Your view now, but different posters asking or telling me the same things is going to get my same answers.
on February 7th, 2012 at 10:22 am
Funinsnow,
You really are a fool. If a child has been raped by a member of the same sex, he will then become gay? That’s a ‘fact?’
I take pity on you and anyone you come in contact with.
on February 7th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
Soooo, funisnow, the best backup you can provide is some doctor who is rejected by the academic community, and the claim that the AMA and APA are “evil” and part of a conspiracy. And despite not being a religious fundamentalist, you are incredibly concerned about people’s sexual habits(I suppose you have none of your own to worry about). I’m sure you’d be a psychotherapist’s dream.
on February 7th, 2012 at 3:29 pm
funinsnow,
My definition of gay is an individual who is romantically attracted only to members of the same sex, although I’m fine with other individuals having other ways of defining the term. As far as I’m concerned, homosexual sex is an expression of that orientation, but doesn’t independently define it. I was gay long before I ever had sex with someone of the same sex, and having sex with a women would have changed exactly nothing in that respect. Ironically, your definition fixates on sex far more than those for whom you recommend celibacy.
Again though, how you define gay doesn’t really bother me. My concern is with your facts.
“33% of gays report homosexual rape in youth”
Without a source, I’m going to have to give that statistic no weight whatsoever. As you yourself claim the AMA to be biased, its naive to expect us to accept your own numbers without knowing who presented them and what agendas they might have had. So I’ll ask it simply.
Where did that number come from?
on February 7th, 2012 at 4:35 pm
Richard,
I think you’d be better off asking Funinsnow’s proctologist or gastroenterologist where he came up with that statistic. Because we all know where he really came up with it…
on February 8th, 2012 at 10:16 am
Aron, I don’t even have a Dr. Incidentally, my view is don’t see a Dr. unless you’re sick or have a history of being sick. It’s no surprise Aron, that when you can’t think of anything you’d talk about proctologists & gastroenterologists (what kind of Drs. are those anyhow?) when I don’t even have a Dr.
But since Richard L. asks for where I got that #, Dr. Julie-Harren Hamilton, Dr. NE Whitehead & Dr. Nicolosi are 3 sources to back up Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron. But even some gays/lesbians don’t dispute the possibility that if a boy is repeatedly homosexually raped in youth, the likelihood is more he’ll take part in gay activities in adulthood. Sex abuse can mess up mind in many ways. It’s not controversial to talk about bed wetting, insomnia, anti-social conduct, etc. that often can be results of childhood sex abuse. But when you talk of homosexual activities in adulthood as reaction to homosexual rape in youth, then the AMA & gay/lesbian groups say there’s no link.
I believe the American Medical Association (AMA) doesn’t believe it when they say there’s no link between homosexual rape in youth & adult homosexual behavior. If a kid lived in a high crime neighborhood & sees gang related crimes, the likelihood is more that he’ll do gang related crimes in adulthood because he believes this behavior is normal. The same way with let’s say a young boy who is homosexually raped for years by an adult. The boy believes by years of homosexual rape that gay activities are normal. So when he becomes an adult he takes part in gay activities-usu. with willing adults but in worst case scenarios he commits pederasty.
No, not all who are homosexually raped in youth take part in gay activities in adulthood & there are those who go in the reverse. There are many gays/lesbians who take part in gay/lesbian activities because homosexuality is true orientation & that’s why I say that if they’re doing it because of biological reason, then it’s a biological defect. But there are some gays who believe being repeatedly homosexually raped in youth is why they take part in gay activities in adulthood & it’s hard to know how sex abuse impacted their mind. Would they not have done gay activities had the repeated homosexual rape not happened? It’s hard to know. Again, I like most people who are against gay/lesbianism use sexual behavior to define gay/lesbian activities. Finally Richard L., I don’t believe you choose your sexual orientation but you do choose your sexual behavior & to repeat it’s about ending gay/lesbian activities regardless of orienation change as I believe it’s either straight sex or no sex. Anyhow, if you have something new to share then please do so, but I think the answer will be circular as this topic repeats.
on February 8th, 2012 at 12:16 pm
Funinsnow,
Since you are just as ignorant about the medical field as you are about human sexuality, let me enlighten you. Gastroenterologists are doctors concerned with the upper gastrointestinal tract; essentially they are the digestion specialists.
Proctologists are doctors specializing in the lower gastrointestinal tract. These are the doctors concerned with solid waste disposal and all of the affiliated organs.
In short, I was calling your statistics and claims to be little better than the byproduct of food consumption and digestion. Make of that what you will.
on February 8th, 2012 at 12:49 pm
Aron, facts are facts & even if the AMA lies that there’s no link, if a boy is homosexually raped in youth esp. repeatedly, then yes, it’s more likely he’ll do gay activities in adulthood. You turned it into personal attacks because you can’t come up with serious rebuttal. You don’t need to be an expert to understand that repeated homosexual rape in youth esp. the younger the age can have bad impacts on how some1 can think or behave, so yes, some boys who are homosexually raped repeatedly in youth do gay activities in adulthood because they think it’s normal-they learned this sexual behavior from sex abuse. Any sexual behavior whether it’s gay or straight can be learned.
There are women who take part in sodomy or anal & there are some men who perform anal or sodomy on women. Anal or sodomy is bad & I have no problem if they make it a crime even by willing adults. But some men who do anal on women learned this by watching porn. Penis/vaginal sex between man & woman is the only true way with if oral were to happen, woman giving man oral. But I don’t think most men who take part in anal or sodomy with a woman do so because of biology-they do so because they learned this sexual behavior possibly by porn. There are also women who do scat on other men & lesbians have higher scat rates. This sexual behavior is also learned by porn. Again, sexual orientation is a minor topic to me, as it’s about sexual behavior & any sexual behavior whether it’s straight, gay & lesbian can be learned so it’s not always biological as my eg. of men who do anal on women.
on February 8th, 2012 at 2:52 pm
Funinsnow,
I have refuted your ‘facts,’ but you have simply ignored them. If you read my posts carefully, I did not attack you yourself. I attacked your ideas for the drivel that they are.
You keep spouting these ridiculous claims about a full third (!!!!) of gay men and women ‘choosing’ that lifestyle due to childhood sexual trauma. And you refuse to read anyone other than Cameron et al.
You can hardly blame us for calling you on your knowing and willful ignorance. Just because you ‘dislike’ the AMA and APA does not mean they aren’t worth reading. Hell, I get the feeling I wouldn’t particularly care for you, in person, but I still take the time to read and dissect your comments, don’t I?
Also, enough with this bizarre obsession you have with gay and lesbian sexual practices. You seem to think that’s the ONLY aspect of a homosexual life.
And for someone who touts homosexual celibacy, you sure seem to know a lot about man-on-man and woman-on-woman erotica…
on February 8th, 2012 at 10:53 pm
two things. firstly, the gay agenda definition of homosexuality is feelings and desires, with the unexamined, taken for granted, and usually unstated (because taken for granted) that your desires need to be acted on. The straights usually define homosexuality as ACTIONS. If you can refuse to engage in wrong things you desire to do, such as murder or rape or theft or adultery or promiscuity or whatever, then though your heart may not be clean at all times, your sins are less than if you acted out, providing you are not self proud about this.
AND if you can refuse to engage in various wrong things other than homosexual desires, you can refuse to act on that also. To be cured then, of homosexuality, would range from elimination of the feelings beyond an occasional feeling or attraction, which is stomped down as soon as it appears, as you would feelings about your neighbor’s wife or husband for instance, and even getting around to desiring a member of the opposite sex, to being committed to not act on them, and live celibate, and have the feelings and thoughts under control even if you don’t find an opposite sex person attractive enough to marry.
second, “Mitch Beales said,
ON FEBRUARY 1ST, 2012 AT 11:39 AM
Jason wouldn’t know a real man if he was buggered by him.”
Mitch, a real man wouldn’t bugger anyone in the first place.
I assume you are either joking, or coming from the idea that as long as a man doesn’t take it up the ass or suck another man, he is straight, even if he plays the male role in homosexual acts and buggers other men and has them suck him.
I got news for you, faggot, such men are homosexuals in denial about what they are doing.
The big problem I have with conservative ideas about sex roles and so forth, is that they – like transsexual ideology – takes the focus off the physical reality, and onto things that are not even uniform across all times and all cultures regarding gender personality or roles. And therefore play to the closet gay agenda that does not want things out in the open that much. The sort of person who considers themselves not gay because they only experiment and do not in any way deviate from the social roles expected of their sex.
The tranny is a sellout to sexism. Instead of personality and activity preferences proving to him or her that sexism is wrong, they argue it is right and they are born into the wrong bodies. The acceptance by feminism of gays and trannies was the biggest sellout, aside from abortion, that they did.
I am Christian, feminist in the old school sense, before the 1960s.
on February 9th, 2012 at 5:29 am
Aron, I know about lesbian sex by my younger days of going to the Pussycat Theater & seeing porn in 1988 & 1989. Don’t understand why they showed lesbian scenes in porn films or why a man would have an interest to see 2 women do it. That’s how I know alot about lesbian porn.
Of course I know that gay/lesbian activities isn’t the only aspect of gay/lesbian life. But again, gay/lesbian activities is a bad thing just as crack smoking is a bad thing. For recreational drug junkies, pot/crack smoking is only a small aspect of their lives & some people think pot smoking when done recreationally is victimless. Well I don’t see it that way. Gay/lesbian activities like crack smoking should be no part of any1′s lives & gay/lesbian activities must be seen as useless just as using crack is useless.
on February 9th, 2012 at 5:35 am
“Funinsnow”
I have read all your comments and I get what you are saying, but please don’t try to link this with me believing what you are saying.
First off, since being homosexual is not a disease how is it supposed to be “cured?” Doctors can cure diseases/illnesses, maybe some disorders, but your logic is that this can be “cured.” That is like saying that domestic violance can be “cured,” which we all know that it can’t be “cured.” For that matter, drug addicts and alcoholics can’t be “cured.”
Secondly, why would anybody in their right mind choose to be or do something that would get them bullied, beat up, hurt to the point of being put in the hospital, or even worse…KILLED, if they could choose to not do what they were doing that got them hurt in the first place. That’s like asking a black to stop “looking” like a black.
I don’t understand people like you (even if I do understand what you are saying). You ask people/tell people to stop doing what you don’t like, but are unwilling to stop doing what they don’t like.
If anybody on this post asked you to stop breathing, or if anybody on this post asked you to become celibate, or if anybody on this post asked you to stop eating, would you?
You have just asked people to stop loving, and showing love to another human. Most of any relationship is showing love, compassion, kindness, and care for the other person. Any relationship that is based on this is a relationship that stands a very good chance of serviving the up and downs of life. Most of the relationship that you are cutting down live this kind of life…they show each other…on a daily basis….love, comapssion, kindness, and care for each other. Please, show me where there is harm in this. Would you rather they fight with each other?
Up until 1963, in Oregon, my marriage was illegal. I am white and I am married to a person of color. If we had met and married before 1963, we both would have been thrown in jail…until we agreed to get a devorce. I would NEVER given up my partner…my soul mate…for anything or any reason. I would also NEVER ask any other person to give up their partner…that would just be stupid.
on February 9th, 2012 at 9:42 am
Simplecop, you rerun what I’ve already heard & thought about but here goes my repeats with small additions to you again. 1st, I repeat that I see something wrong with gay/lesbian activities. Just because they haven’t found a cure for gay/lesbian activities doesn’t change the fact that they must keep trying to find a cure for it just as we try to find a cure for drug junkyism & alcoholism. Maybe in the future they’ll discover the pill, drug or surgery which changes sexual orientation from gay to straight & the world will be better without homosexuality.
As to choice, gays & lesbians do choose their sexual behavior. People choose to commit crimes such as rape 6 year old girls, though they know they’ll be punished. With violence against gays/lesbians, almost all of them both assault&battery & murder cases to repeat are domestic violence. When a straight man bashes or kills a gay, they are natl. news because it’s strange & odd but what I’ve found is that most of these cases are men reacting or overreacting to criminal abuse that the gay did. I mean if a gay is going to harass a man in a public restroom or repeatedly propose after a man has said no, then it’s criminal harassment. If a gay is going to grab a man’s butt or groin against his will, then it’s assault&battery if intent isn’t sexual to something more serious such as sex abuse. In most cases, the man bashed or killed the gay after the gay harassed them or the gay committed assault&battery such as gay grabs man’s butt or groin against will after which the man reacts or overreacts by bashing or killing him. Now yes, killing a gay in those circumstances maybe excessive, but the man reacted to criminal abuse the gay did. Jury decides if man’s reaction was just or excessive & if it’s excessive, then to what degree to convict.
But to repeat, those cases are rare. Gays & lesbians aren’t comparable to Blacks as Blacks are a group based on ethnicity while gays & lesbians are a group based on their sexual behavior. It’s best for gays/lesbians to never have a sex life & be celibate even if orientation doesn’t change as I see gay/lesbian sexual behaviors as bad in & of themselves. I know I’m repeating but you’re saying & asking me the same things which others have asked which will get you my same answers.
on February 9th, 2012 at 11:31 am
Justina,
That was a well-reasoned (if completely antiquated and close-minded) comment. Up until you called Mitch a faggot. Unless you were calling him a bundle of sticks, I might suggest refraining from those kind of personal attacks here on Hatewatch.
It leaves you open to commentary evisceration. To which I whole-heartedly look forward.
on February 12th, 2012 at 11:08 am
funinsnow,
Beating or attacking a man for making a drunken pass at you isn’t a mere overreaction, and far more fits the definition of assault that patting someone on the ass. The proper response to sexual harassment, of any kind, is not violence. I find myself imagining a world in which women responded to drunken flirting and sexual harassment from straight men the way those straight men think is an appropriate response to being flirted with by gay men. Chances are they’d change their opinions pretty quick.
But back to your experts, with an apology that it took so long for me to respond. It doesn’t surprise me, given your insistence that the AMA made an evil decision when it questioned the evidence that homosexuality was a defect and found it lacking, that you’d rely upon scientists with the same views. Dr. Hamilton and Dr. Nicolosi, for the uninformed, have both been strongly associated with NARTH during their careers. Their income and relevance has depended upon peddling the idea to parents that their darling girls and boys (but mostly boys) were vulnerable to homosexual influences, but that (for a fee), these influences could be cured and their children could be made straight.
Dr. Hamilton also has a history, as President of NARTH, about twisting the work of more respectable researchers to support her position. An example is NARTH’s abuse of the work of one Dr. Francis Collins. When confronted on this misuse of his work, Dr. Hamilton sent a letter to Collins essentially telling him that he was wrong about his own research. The fact that a Christian scientist could disagree with her position seemed literally incomprehensible to her, something she seems to have in common with you, funinsnow. To quote from that letter:
“No, Dr. Collins, regardless of what you think, you do agree with us.”
An arrogant position to take, and not the kind I’d expect to produce unbiased statistics. Still, if you want to point me toward a specific study by any of those researchers you named, rather than just the researcher’s name, we can continue. In particular the study responsible for the number you gave us earlier.
on February 12th, 2012 at 11:28 am
Justina,
I’m not sure whether I should focus on the first part of your post, or the rather incomprehensible rant that follows it, but let’s start with the part where you were at least attempting to be civil.
The difference between homosexual sex, and the other wrong activities that you equate it with, is the issue of consent and harm. Promiscuity seems out of place on your list for the same reasons.
If you steal from someone, or rape them, or murder them, you are by definition doing harm to them against their will, and these acts are generally considered to be wrong due to the harm they inflict. What separates rape from sex is that lack of consent. What separates stealing from someone from being given a gift, is lack of consent. Generally speaking, people likewise don’t consent to being murdered or assaulted or cheated on by their spouses.
And then we get to homosexual sex. Can homosexual sex be committed without consent? Of course. But so can heterosexual sex. What is wrong with your position is that you arbitrarily assign homosexuality (or promiscuity) to the category of harmful, in all circumstances, even when those acts are committed safely and with consent from all parties.
Possibly, as a Christian, you rely upon the idea of “sin” to justify your categorization. That’s a cop out unless you can explain why some of the sins in your religious tradition are evil and others mentioned in your holy text are now considered inconsequential. It’s a cop out unless you’re prepared to explain why things like polygamy and slavery, accepted in your holy text, are to be considered condemnable in the present. It is also irrelevant, because the United States is not a theocracy, and you have no right to demand others abide by the tenants of your faith.
Finally, transsexuals are not sellouts to feminism, you are. In your hatred and disgust at those different that you, you ally with the same organizations and the same traditions that have so long denied women agency, equality and opportunity. You seek to define for marginalized groups a system of right and wrong that robs them of agency, of dignity, and of legal protections. The next generation of feminists, and the better part of the previous generation of feminists, have recognized that and continue to work toward a more tolerant and equal society.
I am proud to call them allies. Are you proud to be slinging homophobic slurs and associated consenting sex with rape and murder?
on February 14th, 2012 at 6:34 am
Richard L, with your 1st paragraph unless it’s self-defense, it’s a crime to grab some1′s butt, groin or boobs against will. It’s assault&battery if intent isn’t sexual to something more serious if intent is sexual such as sex abuse or even attempted homosexual rape. I hope you don’t believe that if a gay grabs a man’s butt or groin against will, that the man just put up with this crime. You can call it a ‘pass’ but it’s @least assault&battery. If a man were to grab a woman’s butt or boobs against will, the man would probably be in jail & more men are in jail for this than rape. & there are many cases where men have been bashed after they grabbed a woman’s butt or boobs against will, so most opinions aren’t changing as there are far more cases of this-if the woman, her husband or boyfriend beat up the man who did this, many wouldn’t sympathize with the man as they’d say he got beaten up after he did something he had no right to. So if a gay is going to grab a man’s butt or groin against his will after which the man bashes the gay, the man did so in overreaction to @ least criminal assault&battery the gay did. Yes, it maybe excessive, but that’s why juries decide this after hearing both the prosecution & defense. If it’s a murder trial, then a jury will decide what degree to convict on such as Manslaughter rather than 2nd Degree Murder. There’s no need to put up with sexual harassment whether it’s straight or gay in nature. To repeat, I think gay/lesbian sexual activities whether it’s consent or forced are bad in & of itself.
With your second points, the criticism of Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron, Dr. NE Whitehead & Dr. Nicolosi. With Dr. Nicolosi, he doesn’t force teenagers into repair therapy. Dr. Joseph N. Nicolosi has told parents who forcibly bring their gay/lesbian teens in that in order for repair therapy to happen, the teen has to want this. Dr. Nicolosi has said that few of the teens who are forcibly brought in by their parents stay. What Dr. JN Nicolosi does is tell the teens his views & then have the teen decide for himself/herself. If some1 doesn’t want repair therapy, then there’s nothing which can be done. I believe in free will & unless it’s confining a dangerous person in a mental asylum, I oppose forcing people into medical/psychological care. If a gay/lesbian person doesn’t want repair therapy, then that’s their choice & Dr. Nicolosi doesn’t force them into this as for repair therapy for gay/lesbian sexuality to happen, the gay has to want it for himself.
Yes, Dr. JN Nicolosi & Dr. Julie Harren-Hamilton are both NARTH leaders who make money from repair therapy & yes NARTH is a business. Dr. Nicolosi & Dr. Julie Harren-Hamilton have said that gays & lesbians who don’t believe they’re being helped by repair therapy discontinue. But there are gays & lesbians who believe they’ve been better helped & some think they’ve gone straight after repair therapy. There are drug junkies & drunkards who aren’t helped by repair therapy but there are some who are. Since you mention money, affirmation therapists also make money by affirming gay/lesbian sexuality so they’re also in it for business. Drs. who do sex changes are in it to make money & you’ve read my view in abolishing sex change maimings-the American Medical Association (AMA) apologism for sex changes is a main reason why I think the AMA is evil as they support surgically mutilating people to make them fake members of opposite sex & sex changes are worse than homosexuality. Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron, Dr. Julie Harren-Hamilton & Dr. Nicolosi believe sex changes are worse than homosexuality. As it’s about homosexuality, neutrality to repeat has long been lost on homosexuality. Yes, Dr. Paul Drummond Cameron, Dr. Julie Harren-Hamilton, etc. have their biases against homosexuality but there’s nothing wrong with that esp. as I share their views.
on February 14th, 2012 at 9:06 am
Richard L, reading your post on transexuality, do you see anything wrong with surgically maiming a man to make him a fake woman or in Chastity Bono’s case viceversa? I do as does Justina. Sex change is a sad science waste which happens because they know how to & which must be abolished. Anyhow, look forward to your views to both my posts.
on February 14th, 2012 at 2:33 pm
Not to endlessly go on with this, but something to elaborate regarding Richard L comments on straight men who harass women. Richard L, there are many cases where a man got hit in the face by a woman, her husband or boyfriend esp. in a pub after the man (often drunk) grabbed the woman’s butt or boobs against will after which the woman slaps the man or tells her husband or boyfriend who beats up the man. As I see it, the man committed a crime for which he got bashed. In fact, there have been cases where a woman has accused a man of sex abuse, rape, etc. & the man ended up being beaten up only to later be learned the woman made it up. In the 2006 Duke rape case, there were people prepared to beat up the accused men only to later be learned the woman lied about being raped. In 2011, there was a riot against a Gypsy neighborhood in Italy after a teenage girl said that 2 Gypsy men raped her. After the riots, the girl admitted she lied about being raped because she didn’t want her parents to know she was having sex with her boyfriend.
Richard L, the fact is that sex abuse by men against women is taken so seriously that it has even in some cases resulted in innocent men being victims of violence after being accused. With gay bashings, I’m against starting fights. If a gay is minding his business & not bothering others, then leave him alone. But if a gay is going to be anti-social such as harass or commit assault&battery by grabbing butt or groin against will, then a man has a right to use any just force to end the abuse. Whether the man reacted with just or excessive force is a jury topic, but the man did react to a crime the gay did. If a gay is going to harass others in the bathroom as Larry Craig did, then that must be punished. The bathroom is the place to use the toilet & wash up. Anyhow Richard L, you & I will differ on homosexuality/lesbianism as I see something wrong with gay/lesbian activities. But I hope Richard L that you are against harassment, assault&battery & sex abuse when it’s gay in nature in the ways described.
on February 14th, 2012 at 8:31 pm
funinsnow,
It seems at last we find an area where we can agree. I am 100% opposed to sexual harassment/assault, whether verbal or physical, whether committed by a man against another man, a man against a woman, a woman against a man, woman against woman, etc. If someone makes a (verbal) sexual advance toward another person, and that person refuses them or makes clear their lack of interest, than it is harassment for that someone to continue forcing their attentions upon the other person. And if that person physically accosts the individual, then yes, they’ve committed sexual harassment.
We differ, I think, in what we consider to be appropriate response. If someone is coming onto you in an unwanted fashion verbally, than no matter how obnoxious they’re being, violence is inappropriate. If they physically grope you, than responding with a slap or punch or shove is still inappropriate, but more understandable. It is, however, excessive to beat someone up because they groped you, and this is true regardless of the opinions of a jury. It is up to the jury to determine how excessive the violent response was. The actions are still wrong. If you want to ‘punish’ someone for sexual assault or harassment, take it to the courts. Violent retribution is neither legal nor justified save in the last extreme of self-defense.
As for NARTH, I never stated that the organization forced individuals into their therapy, although they do their best to convince gay individuals and their family that such therapy is desirable, effective, and/or necessary. The sad fact is that while some ex-gays may be genuine in reporting that the therapy helped them (and we’d likely disagree as to why and how), most do not experience any change in orientation, and for others the experience is quite harrowing. These procedures are also not scientific, and are usually faith based in nature. Still, if that’s what the person wants to try, than it’s up to them, as long as the groups in question are honest about the efficiency and success rates of their therapies. They frequently are unwilling to be forthcoming with such data.
Disturbing at best, however, are cases where the parents of a youth force them to attend such therapy sessions against their will. This can have very negative outcomes for the youth involved, up to and including suicide.
on February 14th, 2012 at 8:47 pm
funinsnow,
I’ll also respond to your other question, the one about transsexualism and gender-reassignment surgery. You ask if I oppose such surgeries? Yes and no, depending on the context in which they are being used.
I oppose the use of these surgeries to ‘correct’ the genitals of infants born with ambiguous sex organs or characteristics, as such surgeries have typically been conducted without the consent of the parents and without the child being informed until much later that the surgeries were conducted. As medical understanding of intersex people has grown, this has become less common, but the horror stories continue well into the present.
However, I support the use of these surgeries where requested by adult individuals. Transsexual people are not being mutilated against their will by doctors, those that have the surgeries feel it necessary to correct the dichotomy between their brain and self conception of gender, and their physical sex characteristics. Moreover, the majority of those who undergo these surgeries later report increased self-esteem, well being, and happiness.
It’s certainly not for everyone, nor necessarily for all trans folks, but they have the right to make their own decisions about their own bodies, and they are better situated to make those decisions than you or I.
The world of human sex and sexuality, and for that matter animal sex and sexuality in general, is far more complicated than heterosexual monogamous males and females. If you want to be a monogamous heterosexual man, that’s fine, and I absolutely support your right to be that way. But if you attempt to force me or others to fit into your comfort zone, you’re in for a lot of disappointment.
You’ve made it clear that you won’t accept any science that disagrees with your position. I’ll make it clear now that without seeing the actual study and being able to verify its methods, I do not trust researchers associated with NARTH or any other ex-gay group, although verifying a researcher’s work/methods/record is a generally good idea all around.
Nice having a civil discourse about the topic with you.
on February 15th, 2012 at 7:31 am
Yes you will go endlessly on with this. You have found as long as you are polite you can go endlessly over and over the same crap again.
on February 16th, 2012 at 10:05 am
The other Dave, yes, my views are crap to people like you, but we won’t say much which is significantly new. Whether it’s SPLC, singer Lady Gaga, shock jock Howard Stern, Robin Quivers, Huffington Post, etc. they’ll repeat the same information on gays/lesbians & transexuality in their apologism. What I say will be repeat. If you see the talks surrounding homosexuality, they end up saying the same thing again & again. The SPLC can create many other topics surrounding homosexuality & we will say the same thing again. My guess theotherDave, is that you don’t have much new things to add.
Richard L, can’t say anymore surrounding repair therapy because we’ll just repeat what has been said. With transexuality, yes, most of the patients who have this mutilation consent to it, but I don’t believe sex changes should be a choice. If a man believed he was a dog, I would oppose a Dr.trying to surgically alter the man’s voice to make him bark like a dog or surgically put a tail on him & I’d also oppose a Dr. trying to make a dog a man. If a Black person believed he was White or Viceversa, I’d oppose a surgeon trying to Whiten or Darken his or her skin. Just as there are men who think they’re women, there are Blacks who think they’re White. What they must do with Gender Dysphoria (GID) is try to cure or @least better treat GID based on available science & they must not do sex changes, even if the patient wants it just as it would be wrong for a Dr. to amputate the healthy limbs of some1 who thinks they have no arms. Maybe people have GID because of birth defect just as people who have ethnic identity disorder. With GID, science has collaborated with rather than treat a disorder. Sex changes have been around since the 1950s & are a sad mutilation of science. Incidentally, I have no problem if they abolish vasectomies & tubal ligations as there’s sufficient birth control such as the pill, condoms & Rhythm, etc. Science/medicine often ends up going into things it shouldn’t be doing such as cloning. Sex changes are a sad eg. of medicine doing what it shouldn’t.
on February 16th, 2012 at 12:24 pm
It’s a good thing we have Funinsnow to regulate our morality for us! Otherwise, we would have no other choice but to be TOLERENT OF OTHERS and we can’t have that, now, can we?
on February 19th, 2012 at 8:27 am
Aron, this may sound like a weak answer, but I believe it’s good to be narrow minded against things such as gay/lesbian activities & sex change maimings. Sometimes the narrow minded view is the right view. So being homophobic is a good thing just it’s good to be against sex change mutilations & crack smoking.
on February 20th, 2012 at 2:19 pm
It’s amazing. He admits his answer is weak. And yet he still thinks it’s the right one BECAUSE HE SAYS SO.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you a textbook example of circular logic. I would expect nothing less from Funinsnow.
on February 22nd, 2012 at 12:35 pm
that sex is mainly supposed to be about the woman pleasuring the man & that once a woman hits menopause, it’s best to not have sex with her.”
Funinsnow does not deserve the love of any intelligent women.He is a “HINO” Heterosexual in name only. Do not try to re assign your preference,nobody else wants your love either. Just repeat that to yourself a dozen times.
on March 22nd, 2012 at 3:40 pm
Funinsnow
First off I’ve noticed that you are comparing homosexuality and sex change to drug abuse. I have a boyfriend, you see, and last time I checked, being the way I am hasn’t blackened my lungs, nor has it permanently clouded my mind. It hasn’t made me steal from peopl just so I could pay for more of my “Drug” either. As a matter of fact, it has had no adverse effects on my health whatsoever. So please drop that.
Anywho, onward.
From what I remember, as a child, I was never sexually abused at all. Neither was my lover, Noah. Although I will agree that some homosexuality is caused by such things, but it isn’t always the case.
And no, narrow mindedness is never okay.
Love, care and acceptance is what’s okay.
But let’s say, theoretically, they came up with a cure for homosexuality. I would not have it done, period. While I would respect another persons decision to have the procedure done. Because being gay/lesbian/bisexual isn’t just about the physical stuff, it is about loving who you want to love, it’s about the emotional feelings between two human beings, no matter their gender.
But… I feel that what I have said is futile, Judging by your last comments, and how stubborn you are. So let me present you with an alternate rebuttal.
If the cure was made to stop homosexuality, it would be up to someone’s personal choice, along with your celibacy idea. Homosexuality will never go away, because if gays and lebians were forced into those things it would be unconstitutional.
Therefore, the government pwns you.
With respect,
Kurai
on April 17th, 2012 at 9:05 am
AFTAH is notable for its posting of the utterly discredited work of Paul Cameron (of the Family Research Institute; see below), who has claimed that gays and lesbians live vastly shorter lives than heterosexuals. Among the Cameron propaganda published by AFTAH are 2007 claims that gays and lesbians in Norway and Denmark live 24 fewer years than heterosexuals. Reviewing that claim, Danish epidemiologist Morten Frisch found that it had no scientific basis. LaBarbera himself, in 2002, compared the alleged dangers of homosexuality to those of “smoking, alcohol and drug abuse.” Similarly, AFTAH’s website carries essays describing homosexuality as a “lethal behavior addiction,” a “dangerous” practice that is “neither normal nor benign.”
on June 11th, 2013 at 3:39 pm
Dr. NE Whitehead has shown conclusively in his webpage at mygenes.co.nz that nobody is born gay. Even identical twins (where there is any homosexuality at all!) will 8 out of 10 times have only one gay twin. There is no genetic cause for homosexuality!