Hatewatch Tweets
Hatewatch is managed by the staff of the Intelligence Report, an investigative magazine published by the Alabama-based civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center.
White Mississippi Church to Black Couple: You Can’t Tie Knot Here
It’s been more than 50 years since Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. famously called Sunday morning at 11 “the most segregated hour of Christian America.” Although many congregations have since integrated – or at least no longer actively oppose the idea – some still haven’t gotten the message.
Just ask Charles and Te’Andrea Wilson of Jackson, Miss. They say a predominantly white church refused to marry them on Saturday because of their race.
The couple had sent out invitations and printed programs announcing that the ceremony would be held at First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs. But the church’s pastor, Rev. Stan Weatherford, called them on Friday to say that wouldn’t be possible.
“He had people in the sanctuary that were pitching a fit about us being a black couple,” Te’Andrea told the Jackson-area NBC affiliate. The Wilsons were not members of the congregation but had regularly attended services there.
Congregants threatened the pastor that if he married the couple “they would vote him out the church,” Charles Wilson said.
Weatherford decided it would be best for everyone if he performed the ceremony at a different church nearby in Crystal Springs, a small town of 5,000 residents a half-hour outside of Jackson.
“I didn’t want to have a controversy within the church and I didn’t want a controversy to affect the wedding of Charles and Te’Andrea,” Weatherford said.
Weatherford said he was surprised by the opposition voiced by what he termed a small minority of the congregation. No African-American had ever been married at the church, which was established in 1883, “so it was setting a new precedent and there are those who reacted to that,” he said.
Church officials now say they welcome any race into their congregation and will hold internal discussions on how to respond should this particular issue reoccur.
To Charles Wilson, the First Baptist Church’s behavior flies in the face of true Christian values. “I blame those members who knew and call themselves Christian and didn’t stand up,” he said.
His wife agreed. She was “brought up in the church to love and care for everybody,” regardless of race.
This isn’t the first time racial strife has struck Crystal Springs.
In 1966, Eddie James Stewart was reportedly the victim of a racially motivated killing while in the custody of the town’s police. They claimed he was shot during an escape attempt.
In 1999, Dan M. Gibson, then-mayor of Crystal Springs, spoke at a gathering of the white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC) during a failed run for the Republican gubernatorial nomination. The CCC, at the time seeking a “mainstream” image, is directly descended from the White Citizens Councils that bitterly resisted integration in the 1950s and 1960s.
Nor is the First Baptist Church the only Deep South congregation recently caught keeping Jim Crow on life support.
Earlier this month, a Winfield, Ala., church courted controversy by advertising an “Annual Pastors Conference” with “all white Christians invited.” Rev. William C. Collier defended his event’s racial exclusivity to the Birmingham-area TV station. “We don’t have the facilities to accommodate other people. We haven’t got any invitations to black, Muslim events. Of course we are not invited to Jewish events and stuff.”
“Of course,” indeed. Rev. Collier’s Church of God’s Chosen is affiliated with the racist, anti-Semitic Christian Identity movement, which claims Jews are “the devil’s spawn,” and whites the true biblical chosen people.
on July 27th, 2012 at 3:40 pm
OMG, are we really going back in “sad” times ???? Unbelievable and surely, Unacceptable :((
on July 27th, 2012 at 3:46 pm
All I can say is thank Bob and his wonderful burgers that I’m no longer in Dixie.
And that I’m amazed Rey has elected to remain!
on July 27th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
“All white christians invited.” “Don’t have the facilities to accommodate other people.” “…and stuff.”
I wonder if they will ever realize that their stupidity is only trumped by their wonderful use of the Confederate language.
on July 27th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
If I were a Rev. at that church, I’d marry them anyway and take my chances that they would “vote” me out. Who wants to be a reverend at a church like that to begin with? A real reverend would be more concerned with the right thing to do than just keeping his job.
on July 27th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
…and yes, since Obama has been in office several communities have taken more than a few steps back.
on July 27th, 2012 at 3:54 pm
Aron the major cities aren’t bad. My family and I have a wonderful time in Dallas. But you wouldn’t catch me in Vidor, TX. Or any other small towns like that.
on July 27th, 2012 at 3:58 pm
Jesus is reddish-black. I have prophesied many things, and have seen them manifested, to include telling the people that great storms would come through there, prior to James Craig Anderson being killed, and because GOD is tired of racism and violence. Brass is yellow and turns black when burned. Rev. 1:15. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and sardine stone . . . Rev. 4:3. A jasper and sardine stone is reddish-black in color. And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. Gen. 25:25. There shall be great trials, tribulations, and devastation – like you have never seen; until I am heard to GOD’s satisfaction.
on July 27th, 2012 at 4:06 pm
I am guessing that the Wilsons are going to be seeking a new church home very soon.
If they are, I would like to offer them the following tips:
1) Avoid any church which has the Teabagistan rattlesnake flag or any variation sold by Patriotic Flags in its sanctuary
2) avoid any church where handling rattlesnakes is a prominent part of the service (actually that applies regardless of your race)
3) Avoid any church which displays the Confederate flag or any variation thereof on its property.
4) avoid any church where the cross is on fire
5) avoid any church where the cross is lighted to look like its on fire
6) avoid any church which uses moonshine as the communion wine (again, this applies regardless of your race)
7) avoid any church which has “Whites Only” written above its entrance
8) avoid any church with a separarte “colored” seating area
on July 27th, 2012 at 4:21 pm
I would like to add:
9) avoid any church where the robes that the preacher and choir wears include matching pointed hoods
on July 27th, 2012 at 4:26 pm
i think its good that this stuff is at least coming out in the open. then you have something concrete to address. as opposed to racism in canada which is a rabidly racist country, as racist and more than the us, but canada is better at being in the closet about it and getting away with it because theres no NAACP, no ACLU, so SPLC, no advocacy groups or anti-racist actions to speak of with any teeth or an organized vision or even the language to speak about racism. i challenge you to see how many news articles you can find that even name racism as a factor in policing in canada. so….the enemy you can see is far preferable to the enemy in shadows.
on July 27th, 2012 at 5:12 pm
It’s too bad this pastor didn’t stand up for this couple and for an integrated congregation. I wont judge him God will do that.
But what is it about Mississippi and Alabama? I know that the majority of the people there are not like that. But the squeaking wheel gets the grease and seems like the racist white people who are still there are getting their way too much.
on July 27th, 2012 at 5:56 pm
Erika’s list could be simplified as follows:
Avoid any church.
on July 27th, 2012 at 6:59 pm
Erika,
I think avoiding any church with the any of the feature you mentioned.
on July 27th, 2012 at 8:44 pm
I t6hink it’s a great idea for those churches to handle rattlesnakes. There’s a good chance they’ll qualify for a ‘Darwin Award’. ( Removal from the genes pool.)
on July 27th, 2012 at 8:45 pm
Perhaps we should have the Feds’ Department of Homeland Security descend upon this small church with machine guns, drones, dogs and the like and force them to cater to Blacks, Eskimos, gays, trans-gendered folks and pedophiles. That would prove that we are a ‘progressive’ society, right? After all, it’s such an outrage that a small group of people on private property somewhere would exercise freedom of association.
Is there freedom of free association in the ‘land of the free’?
on July 28th, 2012 at 12:51 am
I can only guess that the members of the congregation that opposed this wedding think that heaven will also be segregated. On a more serious note, these people should be ashamed of themselves. They should cease to call themselves Christians since I’ve read of no instance in the Bible where Jesus separated people according to race. The behavior of these members makes it easy to understand why some who call themselves Christians are so filled with hate for their fellow man.
on July 28th, 2012 at 5:36 am
James Waller: What are you smoking? Because I’m pretty sure it ain’t legal…
on July 28th, 2012 at 7:14 am
Aron, this isn’t “the South”. It’s Florida, which is a curious mixture of the South, the Caribbean, and Atlantis, and I simply want to get as much of it as I can before it turns completely into the latter.
on July 28th, 2012 at 7:26 am
Oh, and here are the Special Awards:
(1). A Verdigris Swastinker to Deep Ecology, for his persistence and elaboration in greenwashing bigotry. He also gets the hydrogen bagpipe for his musical composition, “Variations on a Windbag”, and a Golden Vesuvius, for his histrionic interpretation of explosions of narcissistic rage.
(2). The Unmentionable Award, to him whom we shall not mention. It consists solely of one (1) latex glove and a sexton’s spade.
(3). One (1) very small leafblower to *Dr.* Zabetakis, so he can huff and puff when so inclined, without exerting himself.
The good awards will follow in the next comment.
on July 28th, 2012 at 7:32 am
Again, the Golden Anvil to Coral Sea, and your very own Silver Demitasse Cups to all the worthy folk here. Without your electronic companionship, I would, as Aron suggested, find myself in an intellectual desert.
No complex legal issues having been debated this week, the Sharkies are for the time being kept in reserve.
on July 28th, 2012 at 9:22 am
Oh, you know Jesus Christ would approve of this behavior so much. And, Saint Ayn Rand, the “Virgin of Dixie” must be flapping her celestial wings so hard right now.
on July 28th, 2012 at 9:45 am
I am from the state of Mississippi and no longer reside there. Its a shame that when this state makes the news, that it is about racism. This time it involves a church, how ridiculous. This is not a church, if so, then who are they really worshipping. Well its obvious it’s not God. The two just does not go hand in hand. These people need to get their souls right. God is not worried about race, or religion. Both are a non factor. God wants your heart right. These racists need to get it together. I’m so sick of mess like this. Their the ones who are the embarrassment to us all!!!!!
on July 28th, 2012 at 10:52 am
One could ask why not get married at a black church, but I understand why the couple is confused by this.
on July 28th, 2012 at 12:52 pm
Please Don’t post my last comment post this one instead, since I left off the last chunk of my sentence.
Erika,
I think avoiding any church with the any of the feature you mentioned ought to be common sense.
on July 28th, 2012 at 4:11 pm
We are not going back in time…we never left where we were! Sadly to say in the 21st century we are still there and hated because of the color of our skin.
on July 28th, 2012 at 4:17 pm
P.S. The reverend was not concerned with the right thing to do to please his white members, he was part of the situation! You can’t serve God and hate his people, the two don’t mix!
on July 28th, 2012 at 9:09 pm
I’m glad I got to read the whole story, but I believe the pastor should of married them at that church.
on July 28th, 2012 at 10:46 pm
Doesn’t Christian mean Christ like? So what was so Christ like about what these “few” church members wanted?
on July 29th, 2012 at 9:42 am
My son went thru this almost same happening with the “threat” from their ” Club” that they would fire him . He basically told them to shove it and beat them at their vote – and then took a buyout from these “club” members. They saying , ” It’s O.K. now , we’ve fixed that problem – it won’t happen any more , ” is a standard response . This was an SBC church with some “controlling” bigots at the helm .
on July 29th, 2012 at 10:25 am
Greg,
I’ve noticed that there are some street-level groups fighting the racists in Canada–battles that have made headlines there over the years. But that’s not to say there are absolutely no groups at a national level. In this article, there’s a list of national-level advocacy groups.
http://anti-racistcanada.blogs......html#more
(Scroll down for the list)
on July 29th, 2012 at 9:43 pm
Philip,
That’s funny. I don’t recall hearing anyone calling for a governmental intervention, or a threat to their free association.
The SPLC simply reported the story.
Now what if this had been a mosque? I’ll bet you dollars to doughnuts you’d be singing a different tune, mister.
And Rey, the Necrophilist’s award was hilarious. Though I am rather beginning to enjoy Joseph’s descriptions of his other various and sundry kinks. Worth reading about!
on July 29th, 2012 at 11:04 pm
“Perhaps we should have the Feds’ Department of Homeland Security descend upon this small church with machine guns, drones, dogs and the like and force them to cater to Blacks, Eskimos, gays, trans-gendered folks and pedophiles. That would prove that we are a ‘progressive’ society, right?”
Why would you bring something like this up? Has this happened somewhere before, I mean, outside the paranoid minds of white conservatives?
on July 30th, 2012 at 6:02 am
Philip, of course there is freedom of association. This church is perfectly free to put out a giant White’s Only sign and have all of their members show up every week wearing Klan robes and barbeque crosses on special occassions. Merely being a bigot isn’t illegal (actually burning crosses may well be, see Virginia v. White in which the KKK grand wizard was primarily represented by a Black attorney from the ACLU). The church is perfectly free to exclude everyone they do not like – and if you’ve ever experienced small town churches you know they will.
However, freedom of association does not entitle one to be free from publicity and criticism. Hence, we have the full right to say that First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs, Mississippi are a bunch of stupid racists. We also have the right to point and laugh at their bigotry and say how stupid they are.
The church is perfectly free to be a bunch of bigots – however, they must accept the consequences of being bigots – and yes, that consequence will be criticism.
Why is it that conservatives somehow think that the First Amendment protects them from criticism?
on July 30th, 2012 at 6:25 am
oopsie, I made a mistake! :(
the KKK Grand Wizard’s name was actually Barry Black (you really can’t make this type of thing up) so the cross burning case was Virginia v. Black. For Supreme Court watchers the case was of course best known as one of the few times that they actually have seen a sign of life from Clarence Thomas during oral arguments.
on July 30th, 2012 at 8:33 am
Aron, I cannot myself institute Eigrammy awards, because on occasion, I myself might be a contestant, but had they existed last week, surely Joseph would have gotten one.
on July 30th, 2012 at 8:35 am
Philip, you are not aptly named, as clearly, you are a Flathead.
on July 30th, 2012 at 9:00 am
PHILIP:
Let’s say we agree with you. One group has the right to displace another, on private property no less.
BUT WAIT: Isn’t the chuuch tax exempt??? That wouldn’t make it private property. Therefore, “thems black folks” would have the right to be there.
Which would explain why they have not been seen out in some way, shape, or form before then. Since your private property argument is null and void.
Do people have the freedom of association? Yes. But is it legal to do it with regard to marriage or affirmative action? I bid you to answer that one just to see if you know what the hell you’re talking about…or if you’re just speaking out of a hole in the middle of your neck.
At any rate, to defend these actions as freedom of association is a thoughtless argument because you’re just saying that these people have to right to deny this couple a common human right because of their race and that is PLAIN OL’ ARCHAIC.
Pardon my french, but, your an arsewhole.
Now, if you hide your real name, and wear shades, you can link your club photo of you in all of your KuKluxKlan regalia and be proud to pass on this legacy to your children, who no doubt will end up, on a fossil fuel depraved spit of land, with tons of ammo and diluted drinking water waving several flags, cursing all who are of color, and worshipping “he who walks behind the rose”.
on July 30th, 2012 at 9:19 am
Supersonic, maybe you, or someone, would like to institute (say) Shuttle awards, for the space cases who need most desperately to be brought back to earth. I daresay Mr. Waller would qualify.
on July 30th, 2012 at 9:22 am
REYNARDINE’S AWARD:
And this is off subject, but I would like to present the Lifetime Achievement Award for Solid Democratic Values & Equality to Reynardine for professional achievement in the superior accuracy of her postings.
Although I am new to this board, and a recent convert, I would like to recognize Reynardine for laying the smackdown on these “rudipoo conservative in the closet bigots”, and for wading through the everglades serving TROs on some other deserving jabronies.
Reynardine gives younger people such as myself hope for the future of this country in that maybe one day, we can actually occupy the same space, at the same time, without beating the hell out of one another.
Thank you ma’am for your service.
on July 30th, 2012 at 9:26 am
I add that the reverend of that church, for his dislay of moral fortitude, be awarded a big bouquet of Viola x Wittrockiana.
on July 30th, 2012 at 9:38 am
Thank you, Joseph. I am most honored.
on July 30th, 2012 at 12:38 pm
Monsieur Bright, if Ayn Rand was a virgin, then so am I, and I used to (before I knew better) get married a lot.
on July 30th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
The first amendment guarantees freedom of religion. The fourth amendment guarantees freedom of association. If any church does not wish to marry any couple — it is their constitutional right. Freedom. Do you know about freedom? No one has the right to force themselves on another person. This couple has no right to force themselves on this church. Under tyranny the government dictates and controls the private lives of people. My private life and whom I choose to associate with is none of your business. The church members have voluntarily chosen to associate with each other. They have the right to exclude whom they wish. If the government comes in and forces itself upon the private associations of free individuals and dictates whom they must associate with, that is tyranny.
on July 30th, 2012 at 12:57 pm
Annie, please copy this sentence down, then write it on your bathroom mirror with colorful lipstick so you can see it every morning:
“FREEDOM OF SPEECH DOES NOT EQUAL FREEDOM FROM CRITICISM.”
on July 30th, 2012 at 1:00 pm
Im not surprised by racism, I’m only surprised when black people are surprised by it
on July 30th, 2012 at 1:13 pm
Annie, you dear little ragdoll, before you let any more sawdust leak out of your open mouth, where did it say anyone was proposing that the government interfere? It was merely stated that when a minister was induced by a few louder members of his congregation to refuse to marry a heterosexual, monoracial couple who attended his services regularly, it was evidence of poor pastoral leadership. And, before you wag your little felt tongue again, please take note that the Fourth Amendment has nothng to do with freedom of association, but only with specific warrants on probable cause being required for searches, seizures, and arrests.
on July 30th, 2012 at 1:16 pm
Annie, please see my post from 6:02 a.m. this morning.
Oh and if you want to try to act like a Constitutional scholar you should at least get the basics right. The freedom of association is from the First and Ninth Amendments. The Fourth Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches and seizuress.
on July 30th, 2012 at 2:15 pm
This is a very interesting story. First. Churches hava a right to say and believe anything, even it is stupid.
Secord. I don’t want to see the government regulate the churches(like the Orthodeox churches in Russia). This would be terrible. Third. Perhaps the miinster went aheead and marry this couple, even if it means he is tossed out of the church as the pastor.Fourth. Where were the opposition in the church to openly speaking out agains the minority, who opposes this wedding? Fifth and lastly.
Aron hit it on the head.
on July 30th, 2012 at 3:13 pm
Annie, I know about freedom. I have been to countries where freedom was taken away. I have been to countries where freedom was dictated by religion. I have been to countries were freedom was new. I have been to countries were legally, the people were free, but actually, babies were getting their heads chopped off by machetes and kids were kidnapped, drugged, raped, and forced to be soldiers for warlords. And since it’s been 10 years, I can tell you where I’ve been.
Do you know about freedom or do you just recite what you hear at your “club gatherings”?
on July 30th, 2012 at 3:18 pm
*sigh* nobody is calling for the government to regulate churches.
freedom of religion (or speech) does not equal freedom from criticism.
why is this concept so difficult to understand? its about as easy as law gets :)
on July 30th, 2012 at 3:34 pm
Steve, black people are never surprised by racism. Now, exactly what are you surprised about?
on July 30th, 2012 at 9:30 pm
Reynardine, thanks for choosing ME to do that. I know I usually end up chiming in when the weirdos show up and start spouting UTTER nonsense (as compared to utter BS, like most of your “hammerheads.”). I’ll see what I can do, although I may not be able to do it and be as clever as you and the others… or do it quite as reliably. ^_^
on July 30th, 2012 at 11:38 pm
Majii, I hope I’m allowed to visit the Colored section of Heaven. The music will be better.
on July 31st, 2012 at 9:02 am
Sam: If you live in the South, so will food.
on July 31st, 2012 at 10:19 am
All of these southern churches depend on tithing for their support. The best place to affect them is in the pocket book. If those in the congregation who support integration simply stop tithing, the message will be heard loud and clear.
on July 31st, 2012 at 1:12 pm
Palestinian Arabs in Israel cannot get married in Jewish synagogues. I’m not aware of a non-Jewish couple being allowed to get married in ANY Jewish synagogue in this country or any other country.
Jews and leftists take note: Expend your energy first on ending Apartheid in Israel before you accuse the white Gentile with your lies.
I’m sure if an Arab couple went to a Jewish synagogue in the USA the Rabbi would refuse to marry them. But anyway it doesn’t matter. The Black couple in question was married in another church so the story is over. So now you all go away and start worrying about something else.
on July 31st, 2012 at 2:50 pm
Once again Annie, you are terribly confused. First, this story has nothing to do with Israel, so it’s a moot point. The SPLC reports on domestic matters, and Israel’s racist policies are not related. You sound like one of these Islamophobic types who screams “THEY WOULDN’T LET PEOPLE BUILD A CHURCH IN SAUDI ARABIA!!!” We’re talking about America, not Saudi Arabia.
Second, why do you say “Jews and leftists”, as though Jews are a hive mind collective? There are Jewish leftists, conservatives, reactionaries, Communists, and even Jewish fascists. There are plenty of Jews, including strictly religious Jews, who oppose not only Israel’s policies but in fact the very existence of Israel as a state.
Now you wonder why this story is news. Well some folks like to pretend that we “fixed” racism in America at some undefined time in the past. This shows that we still have some of the same problems as we always did. People need to be reminded of that.
on July 31st, 2012 at 3:11 pm
Annie –
I think that everyone here is well aware that many religious bodies, whether Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Wiccan, probably others — I don’t know personally — can refuse to marry people WITHIN THEIR CHURCH/MOSQUE/SYNAGOG
on July 31st, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Let’s try this again — premature submittal. It happens.
Annie — I think that everyone here is well aware that many religious bodies, whether Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Wiccan (and I would expect others, as well, although I don’t know enough about all other world religions or specific denominations of major religions to say) can refuse to marry people within their church/mosque/synagog, etc. if the couple doesn’t meet certain standards under that religion/denomination.
It’s really up to individual religious bodies to decide who they wish to marry UNDER THE AUSPICES OF THEIR RELIGION. But the elements that make this story of interest is 1. that the couple in question had been attending this particular church, 2. the church’s minister apparently didn’t have a problem with performing the marriage (so there wasn’t a religious reason why, under this denomination, that would have kept them from marrying), 3. it was (some of) the church members who had a problem with the marriage ceremony being held in “their” church, apparently because the couple was African American — and these members were able to get their way. Personally, I would like to know just how they could possibly justify this — or if they indeed admit that they are unapologetic racists.
This story was about the apparent racism on the part of the objecting church members. Most Christian churches have taken steps to condemn and eliminate overt racism and have gone to great lengths to be inclusive of others who otherwise agree with the church’s teachings. In this case, however, there were enough people who are sufficiently racist that they were willing to speak up — even though the couple in question had been attending the church.
Frankly, what I find most interesting about this story is that African Americans were apparently tolerated at Sunday services, but somehow, partaking of other religious “services” was out of bounds for them. Were any African Americans actually allowed to join this particular church? If not, then you have to wonder why anyone (including non-racist whites) would want to attend church there.
Either way, the story is newsworthy because of the anochronistic racism in a Christian church, when most Christian churches (although, obviously, not all) have gone to such lengths to get past racism and recognize the toxic effects it has not only on their congregations, but on society as a whole.
on July 31st, 2012 at 4:21 pm
Am I alone in observing that what appears to be an overwhelming majority of the hate speech, bigotry, misogyny, anti-gay rhetoric and intellectually challenged “Creationism” nonsense seems to originate in the Baptist church? What’s up with that? I’d like to see someone trace that trail of hateful little breadcrumbs back to it’s source to see from whence that vitriol emerges, but more importantly, who’s funding it. What kind of religion dresses small children in T-Shirts emblazoned with “I Hate Fags.com”. This is not a religion, this is a factory of hate. And it needs to be exposed for what it is.
on July 31st, 2012 at 5:10 pm
Professor: WRONNNNNNNNNNNNG!!!! WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!
The Westboro Baptist Church is NOT Baptist, but is Hyper-Calvinist… and even Hyper-Calvinists refuse to be associated with them. They’re essentially a cult. Most Baptists are tolerant, reasonable people, and painting them with the same brush is rather ignorant.
on July 31st, 2012 at 5:20 pm
Professor, that is why they are called Talibaptists.
on July 31st, 2012 at 6:31 pm
Just want to chime in…
Because Buddhists are accepting of other religions, even within the same household, there are no religious laws that require that both individuals in a marriage should be Buddhist or that conversion to either’s religious conviction is warranted or expected.
on July 31st, 2012 at 6:45 pm
My point being that if religious conviction is no barrier to marriage in Buddhism, why should imutable characteristics such as race?
In Buddhism there is no religious necessity for marriage at all, although attributes such as fidelity and loyalty are encouraged as ingredients of happy unions, as are being generous, loving, and humble in all relationships including marriage.
So I don’t think religion per se is the problem here.
See this article for an example:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....59264.html
“It’s difficult enough to maintain a relationship … how could you be so stingy as to begrudge a couple for wanting to get married, regardless of their sexual orientation?”
Could we not substitute “race” for “sexual orientation” in this phrase and neatly sum up the problem?
on August 1st, 2012 at 11:21 am
“Baptist” is a fairly generic term that covers a range of beliefs from liberal to ultraconservative. (Yes, there really are liberal Baptists.) However, the biggest Baptist denomination is the Southern Baptist Convention, which leans heavily toward the conservative side, as exemplified by its “Faith and Message,” a statement of dogmas that all Southern Baptists are required to subscribe to.
It includes such things as “all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy,” “While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture,” “Marriage is the uniting of one man and one woman in covenant commitment for a lifetime,” “A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ.”
More pertinently for the present discussion: “In the spirit of Christ, Christians should oppose racism, every form of greed, selfishness, and vice, and all forms of sexual immorality, including adultery, homosexuality, and pornography.”
So if the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs is SBC, it violated the denomination’s Faith and Message by treating this couple in a racist way. Regrettably, this clause of the F&M seems to be honored more in the breach than the observance by more congregations than just this one.
on August 2nd, 2012 at 12:30 pm
Honestly, Annie; at first I thought you were misinterpreting people’s comments, but after your ‘Jooz and Leftists’ post I think you might just be a Stormfront lurker. It is definitely the type of bunk that crowd is known for.
That said, for anyone reading who might be taken in by Annie’s more earlier, more subtle comment: freedom of speech and association does not equal freedom from criticism. The only people attempting to stifle these two liberties are the racists and their allies who insist we cannot criticize them for their actions.
on August 2nd, 2012 at 1:33 pm
Christians must understand- the devil is in churches too. So if the devil don’t want you there, good for you, don’t go there. Find a true Christian church to go to.
on August 2nd, 2012 at 2:24 pm
Michael — As a Wiccan who is knowledgeable regarding “magick,” I am frequently appalled by how some crazy Christians (and I very definitely DO NOT believe that, as a rule, Christians are crazy; many embrace the religion in a positive way that uplifts them and betters both their lives and the lives of those with whom they come in contact), tend toward very negative superstition and negative and potentially dangerous “magickal” practices (that for some reason, they don’t perceive as magick when they are doing it).
I am referring to actively “cursing” people, often gussied up with prayers to “change their hearts” in ways that no knowledgeable Wiccan would ever do (we tend to believe that whatever we do can come back on us with three-fold strength, so any “cursing” or efforts to change the wills of others is undertaken, if at all, very, very sparingly).
I sometimes think that the dualist God versus Satan mentality that some Fundamentalists embrace actually serves to create and/or summon negative thought forms (bad spirits, if you will). I know that my parents’ church as well as my sister’s (she lives in Alaska), are always being exorcised because parishioners feel “negative” presences there. Their take on it is that, because they are battling Satan, demons are after them. My take on it is that some of them are either given to hysteria (helped along by all of the Hell-Fire preaching), or that parishoners who actually have some magickal ability (hence their religiousity — this is the case with my mother, I believe), have managed to inadvertantly attract what they fear the most.
Wiccans don’t believe in the devil. Yes — there can be negative forces, which are to be avoided, but as a nature-based religion, we really aren’t concentrated on the whole heaven or hell thing. Death is a transformative element in the wheel of life, creation and destruction follow each other; we don’t ascribe good or evil to them (unless, of course, someone is murdered — we still believe that murderers should be prosecuted and we mourn the dead because we miss them. We don’t worry that maybe the dead person will go to hell because he or she got frisky with the same sex or other such irrelevencies).
I am very much a fan of ghost stories (an interest my sister and mother always felt was EVIL and that scared them very much). What I find interesting is that a lot of Wiccans/Pagans are “sensitives” (open to the spiritual world), and yet we aren’t beset with ghosts, demons, or negative hauntings, but a lot of Christians are. Does the negativity of their fear regarding the unGodly draw the attention of things-that-go-bump-in-the-night? Or are they simply, as posited previously, prone to a hysteria that, because of their religion, sends their thoughts in the direction of “oh my God, it’s a demon!” if they hear their house creak as the foundation settles.
Finally, the only “Satanists” I’ve ever run across (and these tended to be disaffected teenaged, young adult types) were people from Christian households, and the “Satanism” (or occasionally, they would endeavor to embrace Wicca, because they were confused and ignorant and thought it was Satanism) was a form of rebellion that most readily came to mind. Some of these people did some bad things and scared the heck out of themselves. Some of them may even managed to “conjure” something negative (who knows?), but it was an expression of rebellion against Christianity.
I don’t want to pass judgment regarding magickal powers or ghosts, but I do think that at worst, some unbalanced Christians, because of their doctrinal orientation, may set negative things in motion, or at best, that again, because of their beliefs and fear of anything “not-God,” can be subject to hysterical suggestion and believe that they are being attacked by “forces of evil.”
Me – I am mainly concerned with fending off mosquitoes while I embrace the wonder of nature and all of her bounty.
on August 2nd, 2012 at 3:32 pm
You know, Coral Sea, last March I found a brick chip in my drine and the handles of my wheelbarrow smeared wiith Wesson oil. I threw the brick across the road, washed down the wheelbarrow, and repainted it with oil-based paint, which you do with wheelbarrows anyway, just to keep them from rusting through. Maybe three weeks later, a former friend I had broken off contact with several years ago after she went over Niagara Falls religiously called and asked most solicitously how I was doing. Fine, I said, but gave little information. A while later, I found this syntheshit where my drive entered the road. It proved to be a mixture of bran and water, and I flushed it across the road with a hose. Has anything changed for me in Middle Earth? No: a tribute to the as usual, as Hemingway put it. But it seems they think this sorcerer’s apprentice stuff will make The Lard afflict you until you seek Salvation. They believe Wesson Oil with prayer has this property. No syntheshit.
on August 2nd, 2012 at 3:49 pm
Very interesting views, CoralSea.
As a buddhist I see things in a monistic way and not dualistic good-evil, black-white, me-you sort of way. Typically I wouldn’t even use the terms good and evil, although the thought crosses my mind, but instead “skillful” or “unskillful” in so far as what we project from our consciousness stays with us, be it helpful or harmful. Some people call that the law of karma.
But in any case while there are demons in a mythological or metaphorical sense in buddhism these are considered manifestations of the mind. So there are certainly no “demons” that we believe in, at least of the same kind of external entity that Christians imagine. Even our hell is a very long but finite lifetime whose purpose is not to punish but to permit spiritual growth.
While we are open to other religions (in fact most buddhists really don’t care if you embrace buddhism at all, much less try to judge you or out-god you or change your mind on religion) I find it hard to understand how so many people can put responsibility for what happens on exogenous beings, and so quickly depart from science, common sense and reason.
As the Dalai Lama said, if there is a conflict between what we believe and science, go with science. As far as I know there is no scientific evidence that demons influence human behavior. But I definitely agree with your comment that the hard-core, dogmatic sects of Christianity who preach the existence of such forces, could very well bring that which they fear upon themselves.
Again though, I see this as a manifestation of the mind, and easily revealed as delusional if we simply use our mundane human experience and reason as guides. And let’s not forget that virtually every major religion now accepts spiritual counseling and psychological counseling serve separate functions, and are not to be considered substitutes for one another.
If anyone actually is struggling with this I think the first stop should be to see a psychologist, and after that, a spiritual advisor of any tradition.
on August 2nd, 2012 at 3:59 pm
I am so sick of all of this back and forth banter when what really needs to be done to that “church” is – SHUT IT DOWN. This is not a private club, membership-schmembership – they get tax exemptions, government privileges for practicing racism. Case closed. No more banter. Shut it down. Stop with the Jesus this and the Christian that. That’s neither here nor there. SHUT IT DOWN. It’s the law.
on August 2nd, 2012 at 5:14 pm
Aadila – I think you will find that many of the more fervent fundamentalist Christians aren’t keen on psychotherapy or drugs, such as anti-depressants. Instead, they view everything from a religious basis. I take anti-depressants (it’s a chemical thing and spiritually neutral, as far as I am concerned, science-geek that I am). Wiccans also believe in Karma and in reincarnation, and that the reason for life is to learn basic lessons — like not wishing ill on other people.
Reynardine — how creepy is that? See – this is the sort of irresponsible, highly negative, and superstitious magickal crap that some fundamentalists are now engaged in. It’s so totally fear-based. I do worry about people who have taken their fears and religious beliefs that far (and don’t seem to have any sense of the irony of it, re: “witchcraft=bad, but what we do isn’t witchcraft, but “good” magick). It makes you wonder what else they would do. It’s on a par with allowing your kid to die of diabetes or cancer or pnemonia because getting medical treatment would acknowledge that god isn’t all-powerful. Yuck. I’m with Aadila on that — follow science when it is available.
Anna — I personally don’t think that churches should be tax-exempt, but I disagree that they should be shut down because their members act like idiots. If people want to belong to churches run by bigots, that’s their right (and it’s the right of the rest of us to tell them that we don’t agree with them). Freedom of speech and religion are worth upholding. I don’t want people censoring me–but I am also aware that if I open my mouth in public (meaning more public than this forum, under a pseudonym), that some people will probably criticize me for being a Wiccan. They can do so — it’s unfortunate and ignorant, but they can. However, if they attempt to burn my house down, or burn ME at the stake, then we’ve got a reason to prosecute them — for their actions.
on August 2nd, 2012 at 7:28 pm
Dear God how hypocritical these proclaimed Christians can be! Judgement and hatred in God’s name?? Why? Can anyone tell me WHY??
on August 2nd, 2012 at 10:24 pm
The sad thing is this happens all over the US and it just goes to show we have a lot more work to do for racial unity. I am a native of Mississippi and aware of racism first hand.. we need to unite and defeat this racism.
on August 3rd, 2012 at 9:33 am
Oh! if both my parents were alive, they would throw up. How could this country stoop so low as to have a church of God, especially when we have a black president, deny to marry a black couple. That church is no church. It’s a piece of garbage.
on August 3rd, 2012 at 9:50 am
I start to suspect trouble in a Town or City when it DOES NOT HAVE a Jewish Synagogue ; but, DOES HAVE A MASONIC LODGE . There’s a connection to the city personna. Not all Lodges are bad by far – It’s just the Klan and look alikes won’t tolorate them – being the good ones . Lots of mental illness .
on August 3rd, 2012 at 10:09 am
If it truly was a small minority of church members, the pastor should have told them that he was going to perform the ceremony at the church. Call their bluff, if the couple agreed. Then if the members voted him out, then he would know that it was not a minority. My brother belonged to an African American church and they started to protest when whites joined. He and the pastor along with others left. They say the most segregated hour in the United States is Sunday morning about 11 am. Guess that is true.
on August 3rd, 2012 at 10:18 am
“The angry ones draw their swords, the angry ones aim their bows to put down the poor and the weakened and to kill those who walk on the path of righteousness.
But their sword hits their own heart, their bows will be broken. With his poverty, the righteous one is richer than all the angry ones in their abundance.”
Psalm 37, 14-16
“You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.”
Buddha
on August 4th, 2012 at 6:41 pm
The white supremacist go back to the old time Baptist church that was run by the KKK,… now call themselves the Christian Right /Tea Party.
on August 8th, 2012 at 1:41 am
That truly is disgusting, how could any house of god refuse any couple. Can understand a objection to a same sex marriage, but where in the bible does it say white people get to decide how God views any of his creations. 2000 plus years of integration, we don’t know what color Jesus was and it does not matter. I am conservative as anyone, vote republican am behind the 1st amendment 100%, but marvel how this place could view itself a house of worship and not a house of hate. Should have a collection for the couple I promise that many people like myself would love the opportunity to show the couple that got turned away a chance to get married anywhere in the world they want.