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Hatewatch is managed by the staff of the Intelligence Report, an investigative magazine published by the Alabama-based civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center.
Another Men’s Rights Activist Suicide Exploited by Ideologues
Last spring, I wrote an article for the Southern Poverty Law Center’s (SPLC) Intelligence Report that ran online under the headline, “Leader’s Suicide Brings Attention to Men’s Rights Movement.” One year later, following an unremitting series of attacks on what I wrote by defensive men’s right activists (MRAs), another suicide has shed new light on men’s rights activism.
Back in 1991, Earl Silverman started a self-help group for abused men in Calgary, Canada. Silverman’s abusive wife had fled to a women’s shelter after he’d “hit her back,” he said, but no equivalent refuge had been available to him. Over the years, he filed numerous complaints against the provincial government, in which he argued that its failure to provide the same funding for battered men that it did for battered women was a violation of basic human rights. Three years ago, he opened a shelter for battered men in his home. In April, 2013, beset with financial difficulties, Silverman closed its doors, sold his house, and hung himself, “murdered by suicide by the Feminized state of Canada,” as the National Coalition for Men’s Harry Crouch put it.
In summarizing Silverman’s story, the online Atlantic Wire’s Alexander Abad-Santos quoted from both the Intelligence Report and Salon’s Mary Elizabeth Williams, who wrote, “There are male victims. … Yet where Silverman came up short was in perpetuating the Men’s Rights Movement’s fiction that there’s any gender equity as far as violence and victims.”
The MRA website A Voice for Men reacted with its signature restraint, accusing Abad-Santos of “gloating” over Silverman’s corpse. It brought the SPLC into the story, too, falsely accusing it (and me) of backpedaling after a tsunami of outrage met what was described as our “irresponsible fear-mongering about the MRM.” Anyone who denies that men are as victimized by women as women are by men is a shill for feminism, with its “core foundations of violence and hatred,” it added.
Another MRA blogged, “I cheerfully await the feminists who will be dancing on [Silverman’s] grave.”
The odd thing is that links in Silverman’s own blog offer a more nuanced view of his story than his mourners do. Voluminous briefs and transcripts document how accommodating various officials were — assigning him a liaison, inviting him to conferences, scheduling interviews with ministers, granting him wide latitude when he failed to dot every bureaucratic “i” and cross every “t.” He also benefited from the $1,000 benefit that is available to people of either gender who are fleeing domestic violence in Alberta. The same Harry Crouch who accused “Feminized” Canada of murder celebrated in 2011 when “Earl Silverman’s DV [domestic violence] shelter … announced that it took in and housed its first male victim that had been both referred and funded by a $1,000 grant from the local provincial government. This is a huge deal.”
Some of those who knew Silverman saw things quite differently.
“Mr. Silverman appears incapable of coherent and rational problem solving with government or community partners,” Maria David-Evans, the exasperated deputy minister of Alberta Children’s Services wrote in a formal response to one of his suits. “This is clearly not because of discrimination or gender bias … but is based on the illogical, unjustifiable and unreasonable ideology needed to communicate his views about misandry conspiracies that he has come to believe.”
Like the men’s rights movement at large, Earl Silverman was not always his own best advocate. It’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that his supporters are looking to get more out of his death than any feminists are.
on May 14th, 2013 at 8:33 am
Transgendered women are also patently denied accommodation in Women’s shelters in most cities due to their genitalia.
on May 14th, 2013 at 9:45 am
An example of what MRA’s consider to be an equitable state of affairs:
http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=94293
on May 14th, 2013 at 9:56 am
And here is another:
http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=94274
Sam, these abusers have been known to disguise themselves as women to get at their victims . To distinguish between such an impersonator and a genuine transgender who has not had reassignment surgery can be complicated. There should, indeed, be shelters for biological males, adolescent and adult. It is clear from the article that the lack of one was not what the decedent was going on about.
on May 14th, 2013 at 10:37 am
Arthur Goldwag,
I’m not really surprised by this.
on May 14th, 2013 at 10:50 am
Are we sure that “Harry Crouch” is not the name of a Monty Python character?
While it might seem silly to make sport of his name, it is sillier to suggest that Canada is responsible for this Silverman’s suicide.
On the other hand, this link does show the insidious effect of a feminized Canda. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sZa26_esLBE
Faithfully submitted,
Hugh Jorgen
on May 14th, 2013 at 11:03 am
Arthur Goldwag
Um sorry to have to point this out, but it appears that some of your links aren’t working. I get just a blank page, when I click on some of them.
on May 14th, 2013 at 11:51 am
Rey, your Sword of Damocles could come in handy with idiots like the one in your link creeping about.
on May 14th, 2013 at 1:01 pm
I hate to sound conspiratorial, but I think this post might have something to do with that broken link. It worked yesterday. It was cached, however. If you use Firefox, this link should work: http://webcache.googleusercont.....=firefox-a
on May 14th, 2013 at 1:04 pm
The other broken link (also from the National Coalition for Men) is cached here: http://webcache.googleusercont.....=firefox-a
on May 14th, 2013 at 2:15 pm
Dammit, Gregory, you made me spew my afternoon tea.
on May 14th, 2013 at 2:44 pm
oh goody, these male supremacist losers are back again – and of course you have the usual “men are so oppressed by women despite the fact that the majority of high positions in government, academia, private industry, the media, etc., as well as the vast majority of wealth are all controlled by men,” claptrap
of course,this guy decided to get into the men’s rights movement after being arrested for hitting a woman. why is it with those men’s rights mysognists that they always seem to be angry that they can’t hit women and get away with it anymore?
While a battered men’s shelter is no doubt a good idea,
one wonders how many potential clients of a battered men’s shelter will be fleeing same sex domestic partners One of the primary reasons why battered women’s shelters were developed is because in most relationships the men control the vast majority of the financial resources so that women are actually trapped in these relationships due to financial means.
i also have to wonder why feminists and women would be so opposed to the idea of a battered men’s shelter that they would want to dance on this guy’s grave – what a whiny bunch of paranoid losers they are. .
if anything, i would think the fact that a battered men’s shelter might be needed would be a positive sign of the progress that women are making in society – if a battered men’s shelter is needed it would be in large part because.of the financial, career, and educational advances of women.
on May 14th, 2013 at 3:07 pm
:…This is clearly not because of discrimination or gender bias … but is based on the illogical, unjustifiable and unreasonable ideology…”
Sounds like a good description of most academic feminist theory, and the activism based upon it.
on May 14th, 2013 at 3:44 pm
People are paying tribute to a man who has died. I find your article mean spirited.
on May 14th, 2013 at 5:12 pm
>Sam, these abusers have been known to disguise themselves as women to get at their victims . To distinguish between such an impersonator and a genuine transgender who has not had reassignment surgery can be complicated.
lolwut. this has literally never happened.
on May 15th, 2013 at 12:05 am
There is a problem in this country as well when it comes to abused males. It’s a very sad state of affairs that we don’t realize how mean men battering women there really are out there.
And let’s remember battery can come in the way of mental abuse, those scars and wounds that are not seen.
It’s a positive thing to hear that people are trying to stand up for men’s rights as well.
on May 15th, 2013 at 12:06 am
correction how many men battering women there are…
on May 15th, 2013 at 5:17 am
Reynardine said…
“An example of what MRA’s consider to be an equitable state of affairs:
http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=94293”
Excuse me but that has nothing to do with MRAs either as source or sentiment. You are being quite rediculous.
on May 15th, 2013 at 8:02 am
In a memorial video on A Voice for Men that was posted by Kristina Hansen, at the 1:34 mark there was an article pictured that said that he took in less than 20 men over a three year period. No wonder it failed. The shelter was in a city of 1.2 million people and it was empty most of the time. There aren’t enough male victims that need that kind of shelter to justify the expense. I used to sit on the board of a domestic violence shelter in the U.S. and in our community we had to raise about 2/3 of the annual budget from fundraisers and private resources. The government grants cover approximately 1/3 of what it costs to run it. Many shelters put the men up in a hotel room and while a lot of people balk at that idea, the truth is that many female victims who find out that that is what is done for the men beg the shelter to do the same for them. I know I would prefer a private hotel room over a crowded shelter any day. At any rate, there is a reason men aren’t shelling out their money to support men’s domestic violence shelters. Most of them probably don’t know any male victims at all. But obviously there are male victims who need help and there needs to be a program to help them. If a men’s domestic violence shelter in a city as large as Calgary can’t even find 20 male victims in three years, then it is clear that a standalone shelter is not the solution. Think of how many male victims he could have provided help to all over his country of Canada if he had stopped sinking money into an empty shelter and came up with a realistic program based on the actual need.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/mi.....forgotten/
on May 15th, 2013 at 8:05 am
Oh look, the MRAs have come out to play.
This will be lots of fun!
Go ahead and explain the parity between genders in rape statistics. I can’t wait!
on May 15th, 2013 at 8:23 am
Get ready to direct traffic to Onancock.
on May 15th, 2013 at 8:51 am
We gays have been accused dramatically by the Transgendered community of not understanding their issues, of shutting them out, etc. However In the absence of any TG people here , I’ll try to amateurishly explain a few things. Surgery has zero to do with a person’s gender status, and a growing school of thought is, there is no need to go under the knife to be happy with yourself or find a partner. “T” has been left out of a lot of antidiscrimination ordinances and employment manuals, either accidentally or malevolently. Just let them go in the bathroom that looks like their picture on the door. And, while it is important for Gays to be “out”, the entire concept of Transgender, if they do it well enough, should be invisible to strangers. If it’s not, that’s OK too.
on May 15th, 2013 at 9:13 am
Two further points. A person’s sex has nothing to do with their gender. In Iran, where they routinely hang homosexuals, the Government routinely pays for a sex change operation if a Doctor legally declares them to be Transgendered.
on May 15th, 2013 at 10:01 am
Sam, whether someone is anatomically male or female, I don’t want them peeing in my sink. Normally, it takes an external urethra to do it.
on May 15th, 2013 at 10:26 am
@Anon…
Suggest you look at the CDC study on sexual abuse released just over a year ago.
Maybe YOU can explain the parity between the genders in sexual abuse statistics as revealed by that study.
on May 15th, 2013 at 11:01 am
@CC…
Are you able to provide numbers relating to service provision and funding for similar organisations ie womens shelters in the same region. If not you have written many words to no effect. If those organisations to which you were attached were to lose that government largesse – even at only a third – I can guarantee they would be closing their doors.
Instead of criticising somebody who tried and died for his trouble why don’t you have a go at all the government funded services who laugh at any male victim who dares try to get help from a service his taxes pay for. How about slanging off at those who take money to help victims but tell any male victim that he’s lying – because he’s male.
Or would you tell those victims to eat cake because that’s what Silverman heard time after time after time. I’ll bet you’re crying a river.
on May 15th, 2013 at 11:16 am
Arthur Goldwag
Thanks for providing the working links. I was curious as to what they actually said.
on May 15th, 2013 at 12:25 pm
Whatever is the fate of actual transgenders, I detect some cross-dressing MRA’s right here.
on May 15th, 2013 at 12:54 pm
Greg Allan said,
on May 15th, 2013 at 10:26 am
“@Anon…
“Suggest you look at the CDC study on sexual abuse released just over a year ago. Maybe YOU can explain the parity between the genders in sexual abuse statistics as revealed by that study.”
Well, Greg, if your rather vague reference is to the 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey released in late 2011 – the most prominent study of the subject currently to be found on the CDC website – it’ll be a little difficult for ANYONE to “explain the parity between the genders in sexual abuse statistics as revealed by that study.”
That’s because there isn’t any parity. As the report specifically states, “Women are disproportionally affected by sexual violence, intimate partner violence and stalking.”
The numbers back up this statement. Nearly 1 in 5 women (20%) have been raped in their lifetime versus 1 in 71 men (1.4%); 1 in 6 women (16.7 percent) have been stalked during their lifetime compared with 1 in 19 men (5.3%); and 1 in 4 women (25%) have been the victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner compared with 1 in 7 men (14%).
On the other hand, men are disproportionately represented among the victimizers. The survey found that for female rape victims, 98.1% reported only male perpetrators. The vast majority of male rape victims (93.3%) also reported only male perpetrators. Among female stalking victims, 82.5% reported being stalked by only male perpetrators in their lifetime. Among male stalking victims, almost half (44.3%) reported being stalked by only male perpetrators while slightly more (46.7%) reported being stalked by only female perpetrators.
Now, I’m not presenting these findings in order to argue that men who are victims of domestic or sexual violence should be ignored or neglected. Far from it – all such victims, male or female, deserve help from the community, and all perpetrators of whichever gender need to be stopped and held responsible.
But let’s keep the discussion honest and try to maintain some sense of proportion, okay?
on May 15th, 2013 at 2:20 pm
As far as I understand it, shelters for battered women are there because of economic necessity and lack of other options that would otherwise force them to remain in a situation of risk. It is not per se because of gender, or because only women are battered.
If a woman gets beat up at home and has the economic means or somewhere else to go, she isn’t going to a shelter. So this is really about the economic status of the victim, not about what gender is victimized more. I hate to see something compassionate like an institution for people trying to escape violence get turned into this war between the sexes thing.
That said, I personally see no reason why any shelter should turn away victims of domestic violence on the basis of their gender. To me that seems as prudish as separate bathrooms for men and women. The only people who really probably need a special shelter just for them are battered children.
on May 15th, 2013 at 7:28 pm
This is a disgusting letter and does disrespect to Earl Silverman.The Canadian government released a document concluding that 6% of men and 8% of women report domestic violence in the last year so stop talking out of your behind.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily.....4a-eng.htm
Earl silverman has been at this BS for 20 years old to be repeatedly ignored by the government takes a toll on a persons state of mind.Do you think Maria David-Evans is a neutral party given that she was replying to a humans rights complaint put forth by Earl?
It’s not a “conspiracy” when the Alberta government has released documents quoting the statistics i mentioned yet they won’t do anything about it.
Authur Goldwag you can believe what you want but the fact this wasn’t opportunism but rather genuine grief from a movement of people who are fighting institutional barriers created and reinforced by feminists.
Just the fact that you actually put in effort to defame a dead man disgusts me.The SPLC is just another weapon used.
Earl died because of NEGLECT from a society that doesn’t care about male victims and at every turn attempts to minimize their existence despite the fact that three national Canadian censuses(GSS) reinforces the picture that the MRM has been painting for years.
on May 16th, 2013 at 12:21 am
Well I do believe that battered individuals should be separated out by gender. If you’ve been battered by the opposite sex the last thing you probably want is to deal with someone of that gender.
They need to be away to have time to heal.
on May 16th, 2013 at 6:46 am
We see the effect of masculized societies (as opposed to feminized). War, terrorism, extremism, rape, murder, drugs, alcoholism, fornication, unwed fatherhood, welfare, socialism, communism, and so on and so on. Masculism has destroyed civilizations in the past and continues to do so in the present.
on May 16th, 2013 at 7:02 am
Aron, quit egging on the men’s rights mysognists by mentioning rape. Of course, it was likely inevitable that they would show up on their own whining about this huge epidemic of women raping adult men (despite the fact that occurrences of it are almost unheard of in contexts outside of the adult entertainment) but they still did not need the encouragement. i just think that you wanted to encourage a long response to the men’s rights mysognists from me -well, it worked perfectly :)
In fact, i think that the ultimate objection that the men’s rights (as well as the white nationalists) have to modern society is that (white) women can freely reject them – and that society is no longer such that women are dependant upon men. In the idealized fictional past that they idealize which seems to be a combination of ancient TV sitcoms (their favorite no doubt is “Father Knows Best” because of the name no doubt) and ultrafundamentalist Old Testament Christian notions of courtship (they are no doubt are fans of the idea of arranged marriage). The ability of women to say no to them and that women are free to choose on their own to marry (and stay with) only the most desirable men is ultimately what they reject. The ability of women to get jobs and live independently and not be financially dependent on men is what they are ultimately against – because that provides women choice.
That is demonstrated in extreme form in the extremely lovely [note: extremely sarcastic] sentiments in the link posted by Rey above which would force women to have to marry their rapists and then serve them as perfect little domestic slaves. As the very first response that i had – as well as what is posted – noted that is an idea straight out of the Old Testmament. In more “moderate” forms it shows up in the anti-abortion zealots who believe that women should be forced to have the child of their attacker (i strongly suspect that they likely believe that it was probably the woman’s fault that she was raped). Or it shows up in the theory spouted by some recent Republican candidate for public office that if there is a “legitimate rape” a woman’s body will somehow reject a pregnancy. Then of course, you have the anti-birth control crowd who seems to think that if you ban all forms of birth control other than the “Faith Based” form of prayer that they will achieve the ultimate goal of both the modern conservative and men’s rights mysognists – to reverse all gains that feminism have ever brought women (including the right to choose their own partners, vote, and own property). Essentially they don’t even want to go back a century – they want to go back approximately 4,000 years into the past.
The real irony of course is that the men’s rights mysognists who tend to be conservatives fail to understand the reasons why many women are not wanting to have children now – its because unless you are rich or fiscally wreckless it is basically impossible to have children in this country now – the odds of finding a job where a person can support a family on one income now are minimal. Even with decent health insurance, the costs of pregnancy and childbirth are considerable. Then if you are working, there is a good chance that the job may not provide a sufficient amount of maternity leave (and forget about paternity leave) to really be able to bond with a child (and of course, it tends to be unpaid here). And then there is child care costs – they are considerable and can eat a large portion of the income of even an upper middle class family. And many jobs require hours that make finding any child care almsot impossible (unless you are rich enough that you can afford a nanny). Even if a woman wants to have a child or children, the current financial structure of this country makes it almost impossible to do so in a responsible manner (i do not believe it is responsible to bring a child into this world if you know that you are unable to afford it or take care of it). There is a reason why the only woman around my age that i know who is having several children without worries about what will happen lives in England – its because the British government – like most European counties – has policies such as national healthcare, really good long term paid maternity leave, provides for child care and assistance to new mothers and fathers, and generally has adopted policies which make having children a realistic option for women. By contrast, our country has adopte policies which make haivng a child almost impossible to afford for the vast majority of families.
The men’s rights mysognists do not support those types of policies – instead they want women to be barefoot and pregnant while the man goes off to work for $10 an hour for 80 hours a week (with no paid overtime) in unsafe conditions in a salt mine. They long for a world which has never taken place (even in the Gilded Age which conservatives are so eager to go back to, there were lots of women working outside of the house – often in the garmet industry – and because the industrial jobs then were deadly there were many young widows who were single mothers – and while divorce was rare, it still occurred. And rape was illegal and strictly punished including by death (especially for black men accused of raping white women). And is virtually impossible given the absence of good jobs to have the type of father dominated woman is the perfect little domestic slave family that the men’s rights mysognists want. When combined with the right wing politics they tend to back, they essentially want an ideologisted male dominated version of the Gilded Age (come to think of it, Gilded Age male domination sounds like a scenario right out of the adult entertainment industry which seems to be where the men’s rights mysognists get the majority of their information about women from.)
of course, they look at the world and feel angry at what is going on – how can you not? but rather than blaming an economic system which sucks all of the wealth into the hands of the top 1% and leaves the bottom 99% with scraps they blame women’s rights. As if women are working longer hours for lower pay and not even being able to consider having children by choice. They ingore real problems. They ingore the continued discrimination against women – they ignore the persistent problem of women being raped and physically abused by men. They ingore the fact that any decent paying job that provides a decent work/life balance is dervisely called a “mommy track” position and exists under a massive glass ceiling. They ignore the fact that almost all familes who want children have to depend upon two incomes in order to even survive. They ignore all of the real problems facing people in this society.
Instead, what do they focus on – ludicrous fantasies of women sexually abusing men which seem to be lifted straight out of the adult entertainment industry and the few cases in domestic violence where the woman is the primary abuser (in many domestic violence cases, both parties engage in domestic abuse – but in the vast majority of them the man is the primary abuser). They then start to celebrate violence against women – especially sexual violence against women. Then they completely disregard any rights at all for women and see women as solely there to serve men and produce babies. Then they wonder how come no woman wants to date them. Seriously, how stupid are the men’s rights mysognists?
on May 16th, 2013 at 7:11 am
i would make the comment that i thought of regarding the connection between the name Harry Crouch and an inability to find radiant joy but its very unlikely to make it through moderation ;)
on May 16th, 2013 at 8:29 am
Jemma, you are an example of what you say doesn’t exist. Drop your panties, and I know what we’ll see. You too, Magdalyn.
on May 16th, 2013 at 9:29 am
Bob said,
on May 15th, 2013 at 7:28 pm
“This is a disgusting letter and does disrespect to Earl Silverman.The Canadian government released a document concluding that 6% of men and 8% of women report domestic violence in the last year so stop talking out of your behind.”
Well, Bob, like Greg Allan, your disgust is being fueled by an unrealistic view of the situation.
For starters, your link is to an outdated 2005 report. Statistics Canada has much more up-to-date information, and the details don’t support you.
For example, from the report “Homicide in Canada 2011”: “In 2011, there were 89 intimate partner homicides (76 female victims and 13 male victims). … Between 2010 and 2011 … the rate of intimate partner homicides committed against females increased by 19%, the third increase in four years, while the rate for male victims declined by almost half. The rate for male victims of intimate partner homicide (0.08 per 100,000 males) was the lowest recorded since data collection began in 1961.”
From “Criminal victimization in Canada 2009”: “The GSS [General Social Survey, the basis for most of these reports] asks respondents who report having been victimized to specify information about the offender. These results indicate that males accounted for close to 9 in 10 offenders of all violent incidents.”
Also: “Rates of sexual assault are higher among females than among males. In 2009, the self-reported sexual assault victimization rate for females was twice the rate for males. Of the sexual assaults reported by respondents to the GSS, 70% involved a female victim.”
According to that report’s detailed statistical tables, 87% of the offenders in sexual assaults are male and 88 percent of the offenders in physical assaults are male.
Most recently, “Measuring Violence Against Women: Statistical Trends” included these findings:
“Women have higher rates of intimate partner violence than men: In 2011, 8 in 10 victims of police-reported intimate partner violence were women. Overall, there were about 78,000 female victims of intimate partner violence, representing a rate of 542 victims per 100,000 women aged 15 years and older. This compares to a rate of 139 male victims per 100,000 population.”
“Over 1 in 10 female spousal victims were pregnant at the time of the violence.”
“Almost 6 in 10 (59%) female spousal victims with children reported that their children heard or saw the violent episode. This compares to 43% of male spousal victims. Further, when children did witness spousal violence, physical injuries were more than twice as common in spousal violence episodes against the child’s mother than those against the child’s father (52% versus 22%).”
As I said earlier, I’m not trying to say that men aren’t victims of domestic violence, nor that those who are don’t deserve support and sympathy. Violence is bad, full stop. However, it’s clear that the scale of the problem is far greater for women, and efforts by MRAs to downplay the effects on women and exaggerate the effects on men are dishonest and harmful.
on May 16th, 2013 at 11:06 am
rey, the url of the link from Magadalyn’s name provides for very strong evidence to support that theory.
i seriously wonder whether there are any actual legitimate female supporters of the men’s rights mysognists – i can’t imagine why any woman would voluntarily support a movement which aims to keep women pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen let alone the pro-domestic violence and pro-rape portions of their agenda – but i suppose that one should not underestimate the effects of years of religious [and it really doesn’t matter which religion it is – religious fundamentlists of all stripes then to be extremely mysognistic[ based brainwashing on a young girl’s mind.
on May 16th, 2013 at 11:11 am
@ CC
You’re right, of course. My critique of sexism in society should not be interpreted as a critique of women’s shelters doing their best to care for battered women by providing a safe environment.
I do see it possible to have shelters where both women and men can go to escape domestic violence. Again, I feel the need for a shelter is economic rather than gender specific, and since men earn higher wages on average, probably the demand by men is limited. If a man has enough sense to get out of a violent situation without retaliating with violence, but doesn’t have financial means, I think this deserves some kind of social support and sensitivity from women.
My point about segregating shelters by gender is just to observe that subtle forms of sexism do exist as an unintended consequence. Where I disagree with the MRM is turning this into a gender hatred thing, and in practice I certainly see your point.
on May 16th, 2013 at 11:15 am
NOTE my reply is to CONCERNED CITIZEN who was talking about separate shelters for men and women, not the “CC” posted above in a different context.
Sorry for any confusion.
on May 16th, 2013 at 12:52 pm
Concerned, perhaps a third refuge like the third bathroom in Taiwan airports, Unitarian Universalist churches, and other places (disguised with both silhouettes to go unnoticed by the amateur Gender Police).
on May 16th, 2013 at 2:12 pm
aadila, maybe i’m a “prude”* in your opinion, but i don’t want some creepy guy hanging around the bathroom when i’m using it. that would make me extremely uncomfortable.
* btw, if you want more evidence, i actually lock the bathroom’s door when i am home alone :)
on May 16th, 2013 at 3:53 pm
i would also add, aadila, that gender neutral public restrooms tend to be extremely yucky – even more so than the normal public women’s bathroom.
So i say that there are definitely some gender distinctions that are worth perserving :)
on May 16th, 2013 at 10:23 pm
there is a lot of Misandry on these posts women have been “getting away” with abusing men for a long time Most men my age have been taught Not to hit women but women get applauded for hitting and even mutilating men. My grandpappy once said it take two to tango abuse is NEVER just one sided, My ex wife didn’t like it that I never got mad so she knew which buttons to push and tried her best to get me angry. Blaming men for all abuse is just a lot of Bull Pucky it is used to become a victim so you can get sympathy with no responsibility. As for the $1,000.00 grant Let me ask you how long can you live on one thousand dollars I’ll tell you less then a month and that means you’re not eating that full month, As for your report From the CDC it is flawed so much It is funny Most men are ashamed to be abused and they are not going to report it. Because 1) they will be called a liar by the people they go for help. 2) their self esteem is already low now the have to admit they can’t take care of themselves let alone their children. No man wants people to know that
on May 16th, 2013 at 11:03 pm
Look at the number of people we have living on the street and I can’t believe that there are not enough men to justify having a shelter for them.
33 percent of our homeless are veterans.
on May 16th, 2013 at 11:09 pm
While we are on this topic a good book to read about a true life story of male abuse is a “Child called it” and there are a couple of continuing books about this same man another one is “a man named dave” and there’s another title that escapes me right now. But the child is an abused child who is all grown up now and tells his story, however his father was an abused husband. It was the Mother in the home that was doing the abusing. His father was a firefighter.
This makes for a good read and gives some true to life insight on male abuse and how his own father didn’t seek any help. Men in our culture are stigmatized if they say they are abused by women and they are looked upon as weak. There are many social taboos that work strongly against men in our society that brings them to shame and embarrassment and keeps them from getting the help they need. And of course we then assign the false value that there are not enough men in this country who are in need. When in fact there are just too many men in this country afraid or ashamed to admit they need help.
on May 16th, 2013 at 11:13 pm
These statistics are most likely distorted at best. Women report violence and abuse more. So we don’t have an accurate count of men.
In any case we can’t say because 38 women were abused and only 15 men were abused that the higher number only needs appropriate attention.
That’s like a heart surgeon walking in and saying I have 10 female heart transplants this month, so I’ll take care of them, oh let’s see there’s only 3 men so I’ll just let them croak.
That’s just insane.
on May 16th, 2013 at 11:18 pm
@XYZ you stated:
We see the effect of masculized societies (as opposed to feminized). War, terrorism, extremism, rape, murder, drugs, alcoholism, fornication, unwed fatherhood, welfare, socialism, communism, and so on and so on. Masculism has destroyed civilizations in the past and continues to do so in the present.
You’re joking right?
Who do you think are behind the little “hazards” causing war and destruction?
Look at any famous male warmonger and you won’t have far to go to find the female “glitch” right next to him egging his destructive behavior on…
In short XYZ that was and remains one of the most sexist statements I’ve read.
on May 17th, 2013 at 7:06 am
So much hatred, intolerance, and petty name calling from both sides of the issue…
One thing seldom mentioned is men’s reproductive rights. A woman can go out an have abortion after abortion, with no input from her partner and no waiting period. Some folks think that is great, others think it is terrible. No matter what you think, that is how the laws go in most of the country.
A man has no right to control his own reproduction, at least in Virginia. A single man with no children must, as required by state law, have a 30 day waiting period after consultation before having a vasectomy. If married, he must have his wife’s permission.
Is there anyone who thinks that is fair and just?
on May 17th, 2013 at 7:42 am
Erika, I’m sorry if my comment seemed personal in any way. I’m not trying to single out people who were raised with the cultural expectation of a division of gender in bathrooms. But I do think such a thing is silly. Humans are the only species which does that.
Human biological functions are the same whether one has a hoo-hah or a woo-hoo, and dividing waste elimination along gender lines preserves antiquated notions of feminine frailty and male dominance. Women are forced to obey patriarchal values from birth in dress, speech, and conduct, whereas men are encouraged to roam free and pee in parking lots so when I see a bathroom that says women cannot enter I see the patriarchy. I see rigid social values that need shaking up. Why should women for example depilate themselves to appear sexually immature to males? It’s disgusting. Men seem to have no problem with their own body hair, why is there a double standard for women? And on and on…
That is not to say the root case is bathrooms, the root is culture, bathrooms are a manifestation of it. Being educated to be a “good girl” is another, while “boys will be boys” is another. In an advanced society, one I hope we reach some day, such distinctions will no longer have value and we can all still have clean restrooms, healthy happy sexual lives, and equal social status.
on May 17th, 2013 at 7:45 am
You can fart without shame, sisters. Let ‘er rip!
on May 17th, 2013 at 8:00 am
“A man has no right to control his own reproduction, at least in Virginia. A single man with no children must, as required by state law, have a 30 day waiting period after consultation before having a vasectomy. If married, he must have his wife’s permission. Is there anyone who thinks that is fair and just?”
The 30-day waiting period may simply be to make sure the man is really prepared, I don’t see that as an issue. On the spousal permission thing, does the same apply to women seeking tubal ligation? If so, the law is fair, since it applies to both genders equally. It may not be a good law for a lot of reasons, but that doesn’t mean it’s unfair to men if the same applies to women.
on May 17th, 2013 at 8:12 am
DG, not all women who become pregnant did so through their choice – some of them were raped.
its very easy for a man to have control over his reproduction choice using one simple step: if a man doesn’t want to have children, he should avoid having sexual intercourse with a woman who does. Okay, its even better if there is only one simple step for everyone – people should only engage in sexual conduct in mutual understanding relationships where things such as whether to have children or not areworked out as a couple – in other words responsibly engage in sex.
Most of what “male reproductive freedom” seems to entail to the people who promote it is a desire for men to have as much completely irresponsible sex as they want with no consequences. In fact, what “male reproductive freedom” ultimately results in as a case where men are allowed to control women’s bodies – by giving the man control over whether to have children, when to have sex, Yet many of the men’s rights mysognists while they want to excuse men [and ultimately listening to the men's rights mysognists makes one suspect that men are the most weak and fragile creatures in existance] from any sort of responsibility and place all of thje consequences on the results of sex on the woman.
Virginia has a lot of restrictions on sterilization procedures for any gender because there is a pretty nasty history of forced sterilization of so called “mental defectives” here. See Buck v. Bell (1927). The Virginia eugenics sterilization program led by one Joseph DeJarnette, superintentant at Western State Hospital, eugenics enthusaist, fan of the actual historic Nazis, and former namesake of Virginia’s mental health treatment center for children is a real sensitive subject in Virginia and as a result the General Assembly has done everything they can to make sure that people getting sterilized are doing so out of their own free will.
And you may well be aware that the General Assembly has been recently passing – or at least proposing all sorts of laws restricting women’s reproductive freedom including one which led to the phrase “transvaginal ultrasound” becoming a national laughingstock. Virginia is one of many states which has tried to prevent a married woman from having an abortion (or receiving surgical procedures to not have children) without the consent of her husband – they also have tried to say that a woman cannot have an abortion without consent from the father.
And in any case, Virginia’s sex laws are only a couple of steps removed from those of the Taliban – you do realize that under the Virginia law on the books, fornication and adultry are illegal and consensual sodomy is a felony which can lead to up to 10 years in prison and registration as a sex offender. Naturally those laws are not enforcible due to being blatantly unconstitutional – but don’t try to pretend that Virginia laws somehow especially oppress men – they suppress everyone.
on May 17th, 2013 at 8:27 am
D. G., that is, of course, unfair to every pregnant man in the world.
on May 17th, 2013 at 8:28 am
Concerned, you are fantasizing.
on May 17th, 2013 at 8:34 am
The surname, Hoover, tends to be associated with three things: A. The Great Depression; B. National paranoia; C. A vacuum that really sucks. Which is it, Jim?
on May 17th, 2013 at 8:40 am
DG,
Your description of Virginia’s laws regarding vasectomy certainly makes it sound unfair and unjust, but reality is a little different. Here’s the actual statute:
“§ 54.1-2974. Sterilization operations for persons eighteen years or older capable of informed consent.”
“It shall be lawful for any physician licensed by the Board of Medicine to perform a vasectomy, salpingectomy, or other surgical sexual sterilization procedure on any person eighteen years of age or older, who has the capacity to give informed consent, when so requested in writing by such person. Prior to or at the time of such request, a full, reasonable, and comprehensible medical explanation as to the meaning and consequences of such an operation and as to alternative methods of contraception shall be given by the physician to the person requesting the operation. No such operation shall be performed prior to thirty days from the date of the written request therefor upon a person who has not previously become the natural or adoptive parent of a child.”
Note first that the statute is gender-neutral: A salpingectomy is the removal of a fallopian tube, something men are unlikely to have. So while yes, there’s a requirement for a 30-day cooling-off period – intended to help avoid buyer’s remorse – it applies to men and women alike. But no, there’s no requirement that either men or women get permission from their spouses.
If more of you MRAs would rely on the facts instead of MRM-circulated urban legends, maybe there’d be a little less conflict over these topics.
concernedcitizen,
I posted those statistics to refute the commenters who were posting imaginary numbers here. You can quibble about how accurately the official statistics portray the situation, but when you have people claiming that the CDC or Statistics Canada says there’s “parity” between men and women regarding domestic violence, and those organizations actually say no such thing, it seems to me it’s worth pointing that out.
on May 17th, 2013 at 8:44 am
jim, listening to you i would get the impression than men are the weakest and most fragile creatures around.
Of course, you really miss the flaws in your reasoning the first of which is that the exact same barriers to reporting domestic violence and abuse are present in every case. Thus, all instances of domestic violence are under reported – regardless of the identity of the victim. You also seem to ignore that many battered men are in fact in homosexual relationships (and almost all sexual assault of adult male victims is same sex sexual assaults) where there is additional barriers regarding lack of social acceptance or legal regonition of the relationship to safety (those same barriers are also present in lesbian relationships). However, there is one measure of domestic violence which is easily quantifiable – the number of people killed by domestic partners or spouses – and overwhelmingly the majority of victims of domestic violence murders are heterosexual females.
The second flaw is that you fail to understand who it was who created the socetial expectation of men to be strong and macho – it wasn’t women who made it difficult for men to admit to being beaten up by a girl. That men are expected to be strong and in control is a product of a male dominated society which systemically represses women. If you want to help male victims of domestic violence the most end discrimination against women.
The third flaw in your claim is that you fail to take into account the connection between male dominated religious fundamentalism and violence against women. In this country, there are a large number of Christians who hold that men should control everything about women – on down to the level of what clothes they should wear (if you don’t believe me, take a look at this hilarious piece entitled “It’s a Sin for Women to Wear Tight Pants” which of course written by a man http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...../pants.htm – as an aside, Princess Erika’s Guilded Age Fashions really needs to start targeting the religious market). While there are litereally millions of people in this country who believe that women should submit their entire lives to men there are not similar cultural/religious/social expections that a vast number of people hold involving men. Of course, maybe that goes back to flaw two which is ignoring that our society is male dominated.
And honey, pointing out how whiny that you men’s rights mysongists is simply telling the truth :)
on May 17th, 2013 at 9:49 am
Jim Hoover,
1) Slow down.
2) Paragraph breaks are your friends.
3) Slow down.
4) No one is saying there is no female abuse of males.
5) Slow down.
on May 17th, 2013 at 10:10 am
Thank you, Jim Hoover.
on May 17th, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Suicide? or it looked like suicide?
I would suspect about a 50-50 chance.
on May 17th, 2013 at 3:54 pm
Aadila, crotch-shaving is an abomination in either sex, and is further a cause of abrasive relations. But I wish men also shaved their underarms, especially considering global warming and that my height often places my nose at the level of their armpits.
on May 17th, 2013 at 9:06 pm
I’m a progressive and a men’s rights activist, because I happen to believe in equal rights. I an an honoree of the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Wall of Tolerance for my work on social justice issues for people with mental disabilities. But I”m now ashamed of the Southern Poverty Law Center for its one-sided criticism of the men’s human rights movement that wants nothing more than equal rights. They quote a few people who says things they shouldn’t here and there but they totally ignore the real issues and substance of the movement. It took men’s rights activsits to get international human rights courts to get Germany and other countries to stop systematically discriminating against unmarried dads. But the Southern Povery Law Center never acknowledges all the good work MRAs did. Men are discriminateda against as fathers in family court (Iteach family law at Pasadena City College), and also in criminal sentencing, public benefits, international forced labor laws, domestic violence policies, military conscription, public health policies, and more. And that discrimination is supported both by the government and by feminist groups who lobby and support many of those laws. The Netherlands and Belgium both have government run battered men’s shelters. But in the U.S. they refuse to acknowledge the problem. The Centers for Disease Control’s most recent study men are assaulted by partners almost as often as women are, and although men cause more damage lots of men are injured as well. And the worst damage is to children who witness the violence no matter how severe it is. I had to sue the State of California on behalf of battered men because the state DV laws, which happened to have been written by feminist groups, excluded male victims from state-funded services. It took years of pro bono work to get that victory and yes some feminist groups fought us, although I give credit to those feminists who joined forces with us like Patricia Overberg former director of the Valley Oasis DV Shelter in Lancaster . Southern Poverty Law Centers constant mis-statements about the men’s rights movement reflects a sad, reactionary, and ignorant side of their center which otherwise has done alot of good work.
on May 17th, 2013 at 10:13 pm
We have set up a course here in an Australian University that studies hate groups like the Southern Poverty Law Centre. The students here in Australia cannot believe that groups that are so adamantly opposed to equal rights for men still exist in the United States. Many are asking how long will it take for the United States to catch-up to the rest of the World.
Most Australians have accepted the overwhelming evidence that at least 1/3 of all victims of domestic violence are men. It is now a crime here in Australia to discriminate against victims of domestic violence simply because they are male. The Government is setting up domestic violence shelters for men despite calls from anti-male bigots and misandrists who oppose equality for men.
on May 18th, 2013 at 6:08 am
Charles, right because there would be a huge conspiracy to secretly kill a person who most people have never heard of due to him attempting (unsuccessfully as it sounds) to set up a battered men’s shelter.
*eyes roll* yes, that makes absolutely perfect sense and is not completely irrational paranoia.
on May 18th, 2013 at 7:27 am
aadila and rey, don’t fall into the trap of thinking that just because a woman does something with her body that men might happen to like that she is not primarily doing it for her comfort and personal happiness.
on May 18th, 2013 at 7:44 am
aadila, i didn’t see your comment about unisex bathrooms as being personal at all – i just really object to the idea of having shared bathrooms for reasons which you should be aware of (and if not the fact that i lock the bathroom door even when i am alone in the house should a signficant clue).
on May 18th, 2013 at 9:20 am
Charles Ross
It was the Illuminati.
on May 19th, 2013 at 3:11 pm
I had rather thought ad hominem – or ad feminam – attacks like those of Duck Farma were going to be off limits here. Meanwhile, I have to go back to a board where an MRA is claiming that men have a right to force a woman to carry or abort, and if we don’t like it, they’ll kill us.
on May 19th, 2013 at 9:36 pm
Erika, I don’t believe women are less vulnerable in a single sex bathroom. Women are vulnerable everywhere. Any survey of violence shows men too are also likely victims for all kinds of violence, but women have particular vulnerabilities that go along with being women. And of course I am aware of that. But why does that mean men and women need separate bathrooms? Why does one lead to the other? Where exactly is the link?
Let’s take a look at this for a second. A lot of people come around and say of course Muslims should be suspect as terrorists everywhere. Of course black men are scary and dangerous. Of course immigants commit more crimes than citizens. Of course the banks are run by a Zionist conspiracy. Of course FEMA camps are a step toward dictatorship, and on, and on and on. When we actually sort out those ideas, they are exposed as completely and utterly irrational. In fact in many cases, I would say actually insane.
Yet, in each case, there are people who will never, ever change their minds about any of it, not matter how you expose the truth. So how far removed is the idea that a mosque near the WTC site is a “victory mosque”, from the idea that all men are such a menace that sharing bathrooms is impossible? I’m not trying to make light of your views, but to point out how the mind works when looking at human differences. There can be a million things similar between two people, but for some reason all that matters is difference.
So when we look at the real problem, which is not shared bathrooms but violence, I think there are a lot better ways to address that than setting up exclusionary spaces in the hope violence will go away. People live behind walls, locks, gates, bars, and armored glass, more and more, yet violence continues to escalate.
Half the country thinks carrying guns is safer, the other half thinks it’s not, and rift between them is even scarier than whatever we are supposed to be protecting ourselves from. Is the only way society can be safe to accept living in a bunker and surf the Internet for everything, never stepping into the sunlight? Or do we need to look at what fear is in a different way?
So the way most people recoil from the very idea of unisex bathrooms is exactly what I am trying to point out. It’s so simple and obvious. How could I be so daft. You’d think I was suggesting universal vegitarianism. In truth, I actually don’t care too much one way or another about unisex bathrooms. I am just trying to make a point about cultural values, about how we view reality.
The problem with seeing the obvious is that it can be very, very difficult to see beyond it.
on May 19th, 2013 at 9:48 pm
By the way, I have myself suffered violence.
on May 19th, 2013 at 10:24 pm
“Most Australians have accepted the overwhelming evidence that at least 1/3 of all victims of domestic violence are men.”
Ninderthana, show me the “overwhelming” evidence. I am Australian and I don’t believe that.
buck dharma instead of attacking the person, please make an intelligent contribution to the debate and back up your opinions with evidence.
on May 20th, 2013 at 5:45 am
wow, according to nintharatha or whatever his name is, men comprise 1/3 of victims in domestic violence in Austrailia while they, of course, comprise approximately 1/2 of the population.
yes, you really disproved the notion that women are the primary victims of domestic abuse there.
and of course, one always has to wonder exactly what definition of domestic abuse they are using. A loud argument that results in the cops being called or tossing a teddy bear at someone may be classifed as “Domestic Violence” the same as a violent beating resulting in serious injury, rape, or murder – but they are hardly comparable in severity. And overwhelmingly the victims of these very violent domestic assaults are overwhelmingly female. And who knows, the men’s rights mysognists could well claim that a woman “nagging” them to take the trash out is emotional abuse and therefore according to them the equivilent domestic abuse to a violent beating or rape.
Another factor could be whether assaults against children are included within their definition as domestic assaults – domestic assaults are defined as assaults against a family member – while assaults against children are generally classified as child abuse or sexual abuse of a child they could be included within the domestic assault total – if so, that would dramatically increase the number of male victims since while girls are the primary victims of childhood sexual assault, boys are likely physically abused as children at the same or maybe even a higher rate than girls.
A final factor which makes determining domestic violence rates difficult to compare across jurisdictions is the differing legal treatment of same sex relationships – in some jurisdictions, an assault by a same sex partner will be classified as a domestic assault – in others it will not be. It is likely – given that it is known that males are much more likely to commit domestic abuse – that in jurisdictions which legally recongize same sex relationships as being domestic assaults that the percentage of male victims will likely increase.
And honey, no one is saying that men are not victims of domestic assault – no one is saying that men in those relationships do not need help. What is riduculous is you men’s rights activitists somehow pretending that you are the real victims – its about as silly as O.J. Simpson announcing that he was going out searching for the “real killer” (how is that going btw?) – when even your own statistics show that overwhelmingly the victims of domestic violence are female and the perps are overwhelmingly male.
on May 20th, 2013 at 5:59 am
buck dharma, don’t you have to go play a concert on the “Dinosaurs of Rock Tour” at a county fair somewhere where you have to pretend that the millionth time that someone yells “More Cowbell Please” at the beginning of “Don’t Fear the Reaper” is funny???
and while its not exactly a secret that i have not always been treated very well by men, how many times do i have to tell you men’s rights mysognists that i am not anti-male – i am anti-stupidity???
i happen to like smart men very much :)
on May 20th, 2013 at 8:17 am
oh it looks like buck dharma is gone before i get the opportunity to ask him whether in the video to “Burning for You” if the guy setting himself on fire was a men’s rights activist protesting against female domination.
on May 20th, 2013 at 8:26 am
Does this mean Australian men are wimp?
on May 20th, 2013 at 8:30 am
brock, i strongly suspect that your real objection to women competiting with men is that when the field is close to level, men can’t come close with competiting. Now that barriers to women getting into college have been removed, women are graduating from college, graduate, and professional schools at a much higher rate than men. In fact, many educators (most of whom are women) are very worried about the lack of educational achievement by boys and men and the education gap between the genders. Its very common now to see colleges which have 60-75% female enrollments.
Of course, the men’s rights activitsts don’t focus on a legitimate issue like looking at why boys and men are falling behind academically and educationally. They are not looking at one of the primary factors which is the fact that so many young men get arrested for petty crimes (such as drug dealing) and get draconian drug war sentences. They do not look for reasons why girls might be beating boys at all levels of achievement now and why many colleges are now having problems with attracting male students
They also do not look at the social changes which are coming to many professions such as law as more and more law school graduates are female (women have been the majority for a decade and are now the vast majority of law school graduates) – there is much more demand now for a work-life balance than before – and law is hardly an exception. In fact, many women now want to be able to have both careers and have children (or if they want children they have no choice but to have careers because it is extremely expensive to have children).
They also do not look at the social changes – including the education gap – as well as economic changes which essentially require women to work – there are very few cases where you can support a family on a single income anymore – and given that women are achieving more econimically its quite likely that the woman will be the one with the career.
Instead they complain about having to compete with women – which is odd because if anything the available evidence suggests that women are not competiting with men – they are beating them. Such complaints reveal an extreme impotence – because ultimately male supremacy like white supremacy are ideologies of impotence and weakness. The male supremacists may claim that men are supreme but deep down in their hearts they believe that men are inferior.
on May 20th, 2013 at 8:31 am
Marc,
Interesting points raised. I know a very dedicated feminist in California who refused to accept money in a divorce because she felt it compromised her principles, even though she was legally entitled. Their children are cared for by the father, quite well in fact. So I don’t think feminism is the real issue.
When sorting out the injustices in America it seems like there is a never ending list. For my own triage of social problems I rank economic injustice pretty high up, because this affects all aspects of life. As you are surely aware, women continue to suffer from widespread wage disparity and while there are examples of access to the higher levels of management in the business world, these examples remain, well, exemplary and far from the norm.
Couple this with a huge and organized movement to eradicate reproductive freedom, which is the institutionalization of gender oppression on the very wide scale. So with these two examples we see some very high priority issues.
I don’t speak for the SPLC, as I am just an observer. But I think the reason why the MR movement is under scrutiny is how quickly rational, legitimate concerns such as you raise become swamped by the collective effort to halt whatever gains have been made to bring social and economic equality to women. If the pace has been faster on the side of women’s rights in the past few decades, compare that with the last few millenia of oppression.
In the fullness of time, I hope to see the issues you raise addressed and solved. In fact, I support doing so now. But not if cloaked in misogyny and not-so-subtle political will to reverse gains for women. I hope American society can embrace a third way between the apophatic and oppositional arguments for gender equality, based not on hate or “winning” some war but on mutual respect and simple human kindness.
There are lots of things that can be done in corporate America — following the example of Europe — to make our society friendlier to parents in general, less mercenary in terms of economic exploitation of workers and more dedicated to solid families and constructing the type of society where hapiness at home is not secondary to the profits of the elite.
on May 21st, 2013 at 12:49 pm
aadila, on a deeper level i see numerous comparisons between the white supremacists and the men’s rights movement – that is why i believe it is more proper to call the men’s rights movement “male supremacists”
Like the white supremacists, the male supremacists are trying to pretend that their goal is “rights” ignoring the fact that they do not representh groups that have been historically (or currently) discriminated against. In both cases, the rights they care about are only rights for members of their groups.
Like the white supremacists, the idea of violence is often right under the surface of the male supremacists at all times – in both cases you see exaggerated claims of victimization against their group by others. They claim that the other group is exceptionally violence – the white supremacists claim that non-whites are exceptionally violent. MAle supremacists claim that women are exceptionally violent. Both also claim that the violence is not punished or that the others get away with it – hence hte male supremacists claiming that women frequently assault men and are unpunished.
You also see an obsession with sexual violence – white supremacists are obsessed with the idea of black men raping white women – male supremacists are obsessed by rape in general but especially by the idea of women raping men (despite the fact that caes of adult women raping adult males so exceedingly rare to be are almost unheard of.
Like the white supremacists, the male supremacists.are also prone to be drawn towards violence against the “others” – hence male supremacist are drawn towards violence against women – whether physical or sexual – scratch the surface of the men’s rights mysognistis and you see a celebration of violence against women – especially violent physical assaults and rape.
At the same time, in both groups you see a denial that their group is at all prone to violence.
Both groups also seem to have poessesstory views towards women – in other words they view women as their personal property
Both groups also display ideologies of impotency – they believe that their groups (whether whites or men) are uniquely weak and powerless (a clearly absurd view since white men are collectively the most powerful and wealthiest group i nthe world)
In fact, both the white supmreacists and the male supremacists both somehow think that their groups are the only victims. And that the only way to protect their individual rights is to take someone else’s rights (women, non-whites) away.
But overall there is very little difference ultimately between a white supremacist and a male supremacist – their claims to only be interested in civil rights are a lie which masks their real agenda to have their group control everything.
and ultiamtely i suspect that there is quite a bit of overlap – hence, i suspect that many white supremacists are also men’s rights people and vice versa.
on May 21st, 2013 at 5:23 pm
Erika, you have given a beautifully detailed analysis of a kind I have long been too old, tired, and cranky to attempt. But for shorthand of this role reversal of perpetrator and victim, there is the acronym, DARVO (Deny, Accuse, Reverse Victim and Oppressor).
on May 21st, 2013 at 7:31 pm
It’s such an ironic lie for men to be whining about not having shelters. There are, and were, lots of shelters for men and they existed long before we ever established shelters for women. Prior to feminists founding shelters for women, if battered women went to one of these men’s shelters, we were barred: NO WOMEN ALLOWED. Trying to escape violence from a male partner, we were told at these shelters that if we were admitted we would be subjected to sexual assault, robbery, rape or harassment by the men residing there, so we had to sleep in parked cars or doorways until the feminist mvn’t was able to provide its own shelters. Now men are trying to enter these shelters that were created to provide a safe space for battered women, making the shelters, once again, unsafe for women, terrorizing women and driving them out. Men who gain entrance by threats of suing or discrimination use their presence at the women’s shelters to sexually harass women, steal from them, give information to abusers on the shelter’s location and residents and try to sell them drugs. This behavior is practiced by both hetro and trans men. Some women leave terrified and are now afraid to go to a shelter. This, of course is terrorism against women. Note the case of Kim Nixon who litigated for12 years to try to shut down a rape relief shelter that didn’t want to provide him with a job. Let’s face it, men have all the resources in the world to set up their own shelters, why would they want to poach on women’s paltry resources? Obviously – to make the shelters unusable for women just like all the shelters were before women set up their own. Men are also trying to poach the funds for women’s shelters and services to be diverted to them. They became concerned about “battered men” only after women struggled for years to get some protection for women that men already had?
As for women now being the majority of college students whereas in the past they were discriminated against or actually barred from admission to most colleges. Surprise, now that men are in a minority in college enrollment it has been found that some colleges are lowering their requirements for males to bulk up their male student numerical body. Wow, is there no way in which they’re not catered to? And still they complain.
on May 21st, 2013 at 8:39 pm
It’s embarrassing that the very first comment here is by a man who claims that it’s men (impersonating women) who are actually the “women” who are most oppressed. It’s like embracing the practice of blackface, yellowface or other forms of ridicule to vilify and mock a group when they have less power. By caricaturing women with “womanface” as superficial, catty, materialistic, vain, stupid, jealous, weak, shrill and hysterical men can demonstrate deep misogyny, while claiming to emulate and portray women. Like the “Tootsie syndrome” men claim to be better or more woman than women are.
Check your facts Concernedcitizen. “A Child Called It” is a work of fiction as the rest of the family of its author attested. But it made tons of money, so he kept writing books cause everyone loves to read about a monstrous woman: ergo Lillith, Eve and the millions of “witches” who had to be burned at the stake. Get those evil women, right?
on May 22nd, 2013 at 8:32 am
Elizabeth, you have called it. The idea is to *invade* and render noplace safe, and although we are seeing it in regards to MRA’ s here, this blog and others similarly sees invasions of fascists and racists intent on bullying whoever opposes them, or is even just trying to find safe space. During the latter years of Weimar, right-wing groups did as much with German leftists.
As for Sam, he is our resident spoiled child, who cheeks us because it is safe to do so. This is his way of demonstrating his independence: by taking the side of those who would make mincemeat of him if they could get him. I bet you he doesn’t go to *their* forums and act like that.
I refer you and anyone interested to “The Authoritarians” by Bob Altemeyer, a Canadian doctor of psychology who has specialized in the psychology of both authoritarian pack dogs and the Masters of Hounds who put them on the trail of selected targets. You can download the book as a free PDF from his site and several that have hosted him. It’s a remarkable look into the minds of mean people.
on May 22nd, 2013 at 8:41 am
one of the main ironies of the men’s rights movement showing up now is that due to the educational achievement gap between girls and boys, many colleges in order to assure diversity are starting to give admissions preferences to male applicants.
on May 22nd, 2013 at 9:10 am
Point taken, Elizabeth1848 but I think the stake burning thing was co-educational.
on May 22nd, 2013 at 10:29 am
aadila, my understanding is that while burning at the stake was initially used on both genders as time went on it was reserved almost exclusively for female offenders (see also stoning which began as the punishment for many crimes but over time became essentially exclusively prevailed for women who engaged in sex outside of marriage – cases have even been reported in modern times in areas where Old Testament law persists)
on May 22nd, 2013 at 10:31 am
um should be “exclusively reserved” not prevailed. editing fail :)
on May 22nd, 2013 at 10:33 am
Aadila, it depends on when, where, and why. Both the European Inquisition and the witch trials of Salem started out with predominantly female victims, but moved on to men as they progressed. I believe Spain did not, in that sense, discriminate from the start, as they were far more interested in “heretics”, to wit: the moriscos and marranos who had fallen into their hands at the reconquista. Though feudal Spain was sexually quite repressive towards women, they at least appeared to have better sense than to think it took witchcraft to make men’s penises go up and down.
As it became policy for the Church to confiscate the property of “witches”, far more men were accused , and wealthy ones, at that. Strange, isn’t it?
on May 22nd, 2013 at 12:13 pm
Elizabeth1848:
I have been around male crossdressers,transvestitles or drag queens. To say these men are more womwen than womwn> That’s a laugh!
I am still in the early stages about underststanding transgenderism. I have always those go this route(particularly birth men, would have become more feminized and prefer female stuff, when they taken their
estogen. The jury is still out whether to call trangender women legitimate women and transgendered men legitimate men. More studies needs to be done insttead of
accepting the LGBT pro[aganda, who wishes to brainwashing Americans that a duck can be made into a goose, but will it honk like a gopse or quack like a duck?
on May 22nd, 2013 at 2:24 pm
Rey and Erika, you are right of course about the witchcraft burnings. As Louis XIV once said, it is a small mind that always seeks to be right.
To clarify, what I was talking about was the practice of burning at the stake in general, during the Inquisition period, which was a penalty meted out for heresy (as Rey observes). That penalty was quite common for both men and women, which is not to suggest women weren’t singled out at different times for different reasons.
I do think it is worth pointing out that those were not exactly carefree times for either men or women. Unless you consider being drawn and quartered — an equivalent penalty as burning at the stake generally reserved for men — a joyride.
on May 22nd, 2013 at 2:45 pm
Also, what Elizabeth said is spot on. I’m just trying to be accurate about a practice that is often claimed (erroneously) to be reserved only for women. It’s not a gainsay or anything, and I really should have made that clear the first place, especially given some of the other comments attacking Elizabeth for speaking her mind (i.e. refusing to be silenced by men, which is another thing worth talking about).
on May 22nd, 2013 at 3:28 pm
Rey, judging by the content of my email’s spam folder it seems that some men still haven’t gotten the message and are still searching for magic potions :)
on May 22nd, 2013 at 3:52 pm
Another real connection to explore is the connection between the men’s rights movement and fundamentalist religion – its likely that there are many who are in all three cateogries – white supremacist, male supremcist, and religious fundamentalist -
The connection between the male supremacists and religious fundamentalism is especially scary given the fondess of certain religious fundamentalists for bringing back Old Testament law and the practice of stoning
on May 23rd, 2013 at 12:20 pm
In fact, Erika, you can download, as a free PDF, Dr
Bob Altemeyer’s book on the subject, “The Authoritarians”, which demonstrates that these attitudes strongly overlap. This accords with the findings of earlier social psychologists, such as Theodore Adorno and Gordon Allport.
on May 23rd, 2013 at 3:16 pm
Good reading suggestion, Rey. In your debt as always.
on May 24th, 2013 at 10:11 am
rey, i’ll check it out sometime when i get the chance.
Meanwhile its almost Memorial Day weekend and while temperatures here are going to be more suited for sweatpants than a bikini there should still be plenty of radiant joy :)
on May 31st, 2013 at 8:04 am
The 30-day waiting period may simply be to make sure the man is really prepared, I don’t see that as an issue. On the spousal permission thing, does the same apply to women seeking tubal ligation? If so, the law is fair, since it applies to both genders equally. It may not be a good law for a lot of reasons, but that doesn’t mean it’s unfair to men if the same applies to women.:::
It does apply to women.
My mother was a CRNA. According to her, doctors are either required to get spousal permission by law for BOTH sexes, or they do it for liability reasons, even if the state has no law requiring it. Some hospitals require it before they’ll do the procedure. It varies a whole lot by state.
When I wanted a tubal ligation in 1992, the doctor demanded that I get my husband’s permission. I don’t know if it were required by the hospital or the state, but that doctor would NOT do it until my husband weighed in.
So it’s not just the poor pitiful men who are required to do this, contrary to what the idiot troll implies.
on June 2nd, 2013 at 11:10 am
“The numbers back up this statement. Nearly 1 in 5 women (20%) have been raped in their lifetime versus 1 in 71 men (1.4%)”
The “1 in 71 men have been raped” stat from the CDC survey doesn’t tell the whole story. It defines “rape” as the attacker penetrating the victim, which excludes women who use their vagina to rape a man (rape by envelopment) which is counted as “made to penetrate”. The very same survey says “1 in 21 men (4.8%) reported that they were made to penetrate someone else,” which is far more than 1 in 71. Also, the study says that 79.2% of male victims of “made to penetrate” reported only female perpetrators, meaning they were raped by a woman.
The above, lifetime stats do show a lower percentage of male victims (up to 1.4% rape by penetration + 4.8% made to penetrate = 6.2%) than female victims (18.3%) although it is far more than the 1 in 71 you stated. However, if you look at the report’s stats for the past 12 months, just as many number of men were “forced to penetrate” as women were raped, meaning that if you properly define “made to penetrate” as rape, men were raped as often as women.
on June 2nd, 2013 at 1:44 pm
Elizabeth1848:
There is no instances of colleges lowering their standards to attract more men in. This is completely ridiculous. Women specific grants, quotas and government policies are benefiting women’s enrollment despite them being the majority in colleges. Colleges have in fact been doing everything they can to keep men out. Your implication is that women are naturally intellectually superior and will of course be the majority in academia without colleges lowering their standards to enroll the dumber men. Of course this is patently absurd in addition to sexist and dare I say grade school level childish.
on June 3rd, 2013 at 8:47 am
Amfortas,
Let’s have some proof for your absurd claims.
Put up or shut up.
on June 11th, 2013 at 9:18 pm
U.S. News & World Report/ February 11, 2009, 4:23 PM
College Admission: Tough Times For Girls?
By John Esterbrook
Westhampton and Richmond colleges merged around the turn of the 20th century, creating a coed institutio. These days, the student body is 49 percent male and 51 percent female. Maintaining that equilibrium, means rejecting many more female applicants than male ones. In the past decade, female applicants have faced an admissions rate that averages 13 percentage points lower than that of their male peers for the sake of keeping that girl-boy balance.
Marilyn Hesser, a senior associate director of admissions at Richmond, “The board of trustees has said that the admissions office can go as far as 55-45 [women to men].” “Was [the male applicant's] high school GPA lower? Perhaps.” A thumb on the scale. U.S. News has found that over the past 10 years many schools have maintained their gender balance by admitting men and women at drastically different rates. Maintaining gender equity on some campuses appears to require a thumb on the scale in favor of boys. It’s at these schools, including Pomona, Boston College, Wesleyan University, Tufts, and the College of William and Mary, that the gap in admit rates is particularly acute.
Boys will be boys. Male applicants, meanwhile, are often at an advantage-so much so that college counselors have begun advising some boys to “emphasize their maleness,” says Steve Goodman, a longtime independent college counselor. He encourages male students to submit pictures or trumpet their sports activities “anything to catch an admissions officer’s eye.” Some colleges, like Lake Erie College in Ohio and Husson College in Maine, are making extra efforts to attract male applicants by creating football teams. Others are emphasizing hands-on learning and reaching out to all-male high schools.
Do college admissions officers discriminate against girls?
By Valerie Strauss Wash Post 11/17/2009
Is it easier for boys to get accepted into college than it is for girls?
You may be surprised to learn that the answer is yes.
The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights has just begun investigating admissions practices to see if schools are favoring boys according to a recent report from Inside Higher Ed. Many more girls apply to college than boys, to maintain gender balance, a larger percentage of male applicants are taken than female.
For example, according to data that is online in the Common Data Set, the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Va., receives almost twice as many applications from girls each year as it does from boys. The percentage of male applicants admitted to the college is much higher than for girls. I asked William and Mary’s admissions dean, Henry Broaddus, about the numbers. Here’s what he said:
“It’s not the College of Mary and Mary; it’s the College of William and Mary.”
Here are some statistics from William and Mary, and two other schools, Harvard University and the University of Virginia, that show the different approaches by admissions. A reader told us about the stats, and I checked them on line at the university’s websites, where they provide Common Core data. The links are below.
HARVARD UNIVERSITY:
2008:
male: 13,660 applied; 1,073 accepted , or about 8 percent
female: 13,802 applied, 1,102 accepted, or about 8 percent
2007:
male: 11,389 men applied; 1,042 accepted, or about 9 percent
female: 11,566 applied; 1,066 accepted, or about 9 percent
2006:
male: 11,030 men applied; 1,024 accepted, or about 9 percent
female: 11,724 applied; 1,101 accepted, or about 9 percent
UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA:
2008-09:
male: 8,380 applied; 3,014 accepted, or about 36 percent
women: 9,983 applied; 3,721 accepted, or about 37 percent
2007-08:
male: 8,121 applied; 2,742 accepted, or about 34 percent
women: 9,677 applied; 3,531 accepted, or about 36 percent
2006-07:
male: 7,218 applied; 2,680 accepted, or about 37 percent
women: 8,868 applied; 3,339 accepted, or about 38 percent
WILLIAM AND MARY:
male: 4,309 applied; 1,859 accepted, or about 43 percent
female: 7,327 applied; 2,107 accepted, or about 29 percent
2007-08:
male: 3,930 applied; 1,713 accepted, or about 43.5 percent
female: 6,923 applied; 1,942 accepted, or about 28 percent
2006-07:
male: 3,812 applied; 1,671 accepted, or about 44 percent
female: 6,910 applied; 1,797 accepted, or about 26 percent
on June 13th, 2013 at 2:13 pm
See Statistics on College Admissions above, Aron. Is that really the way you spell your name or are you just a dumb troll? In the future Aron, please do your own research to ascertain the facts. Facts like the ones I’ve cited are pretty easy to confirm and are well documented. Apparently, you are either intentionally ignorant because you’re too emotionally invested in in your misogyny or you’re sincerely unaware of the reality all around us.
(Aron said,on June 3rd, 2013 at 8:47 am Amfortas, Let’s have some proof for your absurd claims. Put up or shut up.)
My clarifying reply in addition to the male favortism in college admissions:
The lowered standard on college admissions and other incentives like special male sports programs for males continue to be promoted despite the the burden of higher costs for educating males. ALL students must shoulder the extra costs male students entail whether from the increased vandalism males commit on campus or the added legal and medical/counseling costs from rapes and sexual assaults that the male are responsible for. Women students pay for the crimes and misconduct of male students, not only by the abuse the females sustain, but in the lower quality of campus life and learning. They pay for it monetarily in their tuition as well.
Some documentation of male on-campus behavior effecting all students:
College Serial Rapists Evade Antiquated Campus Responses
Bloomberg News, By John Lauerman – Jun 13, 2013 12:01 AM ET
Carly Mee, a student at Occidental College (78100MF), was hanging out with friends in late 2010 when a male student’s name came up. Mee was standing near Leah Capranica, a fellow sophomore, who said she’d had a bad experience with the student. The two women met the next day and told each other a secret: They had been sexually assaulted by the same man.
In April, a third female student came to the Occidental Sexual Assault Coalition, a group of students and faculty fighting campus rape, saying she had been assaulted by the same man and that he had been found responsible by the college, said Caroline Heldman, chairman of Occidental’s politics department and a faculty member of the group. “We’re talking about a perpetrator with several victims,” Heldman said. “It just seems like a no-brainer that if you identified a serial rapist, you would expel him.”
The women filed complaints with the college, and after investigations, the male student was found responsible for Mee’s attack, according to college documents, and admitted assaulting Capranica, she and university professors said. Occidental expelled him. A few months ago, Mee received word that the man would be allowed back to school the next academic year, after writing a report about a book on sexual assault. “The verdict wasn’t changed,” she said. “The punishment was changed. I asked why and no one could tell me.”
Across the country, colleges are under fire for using antiquated and amateurish procedures to prevent and investigate rapes and other sexual assaults on campus — have prompted anger from rape victims and scrutiny from the U.S. Education Department.
A group of Occidental students and alumni filed a Title IX complaint with the Education Department on April 18 saying the school doesn’t meet federal standards for preventing and responding to such attacks.
Similar complaints have been filed against Yale University, Swarthmore College and the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Swarthmore, in Pennsylvania, and UNC are conducting reviews of their sexual-assault policies.
“The young women who have come forward to report their assaults should feel protected, but the colleges have magnified their suffering,” said Gloria Allred, a Los Angeles-based attorney who is representing Mee, Capranica and other students who say they were sexually assaulted at Occidental and the University of Southern California. “These are institutional failures to comply with government regulations.”
Yale, based in New Haven, Connecticut, is facing a $165,000 Education Department fine for failing to report campus sexual assaults in 2001 and 2002.
Campus Assaults
At least one-quarter of women are sexually assaulted during their college years, according to studies published as recently as 2000 by the U.S. Justice Department and crime researchers. About 27 percent of college women are raped or suffer attempted rape, according to researchers at Wayne State University.
Serial Rapists
A relatively small minority of men are responsible for most of these attacks, according to David Lisak, a former University of Massachusetts clinical psychologist who consults to the U.S. military and colleges on sexual assault. In Lisak’s study of 1,882 college men, 120 admitted committing rape or attempted rape. They admitted to 483, or an average of 4 assaults each.
“College presidents don’t like to hear this, but these are sex offenders,” said Lisak, who spoke last month at Harvard University, sponsored by student group Harvard Men Against Rape. “Every report should be viewed and treated as an opportunity to identify a serial rapist.” Occidental President Jonathan Veitch declined to discuss specifics of Mee and Capranica’s cases, or disclose the name of the male student, citing state and federal privacy laws. Reducing punishments may be appropriate when new evidence comes to light, he said.
Amherst College is overhauling its sexual-assault response programs following a campus outcry over the school’s policies, a former student said she was raped in 2011 and the Amherst, Massachusetts-based school discouraged her from reporting. Until last year, students at the University of North Carolina could take sexual-assault complaints to Honor Court, a student-run conduct committee. “It was surprising to me that the Honor Court ever had jurisdiction over this in the first place,” said Kevin Diao, a UNC senior, in an interview in the campus student center. “We’re students here, we’re not investigators.”
Students often don’t report sexual assaults to the police because the assailants may be friends or acquaintances, and the victims may not want them arrested, said Linda Fairstein, former head of the sex crimes unit of the Manhattan District Attorney.
Two Weeks
Occidental, a 125-year-old, selective liberal arts college with about 2,100 students, gained attention after the election of U.S. President Barack Obama, who spent his first two years of college there in 1979-1981.
Mee had been at Occidental College (78100MF) about two weeks in 2009 when she went to a party and became intoxicated. A male student separated her from her friends, led her back to her room and raped her, she said. The next night, the same student forced his way into her dorm room and assaulted her again, Mee said. At first, she didn’t want to report the incidents. Mee said she received little education about sexual assault when she started college and didn’t understand what it meant to give consent. “I told a friend, and he said I was stupid for letting him in my room,” she said. “I felt I was somehow at fault.”
Always Leering
After she was assaulted, Mee said she continually saw her attacker leering at her in the school cafeteria, called “The Marketplace.” Friends told her they heard him talk about his enjoyment of dominating women, she said. She felt like she was always looking over her shoulder. “Oxy’s a small campus, and every party I went to I pretty much left in tears,” she said. “I couldn’t go out or even go to the place where we eat because I knew I’d see him.” She said she thought of leaving the school.
Capranica, the second victim, said she was attacked just before classes began her sophomore year in 2010. She suspected her assailant had given her drinks that might have been spiked.
Mee and Capranica declined to name their attacker. Students are often reluctant to identify assailants publicly because of the risk of legal reprisals from them or their families.
Accused Students
College investigations can also be “quite disadvantageous” for accused students, said Fairstein, the former prosecutor. Those students may not be allowed to use lawyers or call witnesses, or have the rights of someone charged in the criminal justice system, she said. “The accused may well be deprived of what we think of as due process,” she said. Allred declined to name any of the women’s alleged assailants. She and her clients are investigating cases against the college, not the assailants, at this time, she said.
When Capranica first talked with school officials about reporting the incident, she said they discouraged her. They said her assailant wouldn’t be expelled even if he was found responsible, and she would still see him on campus. They also discouraged her from going to police, Capranica said. When the school began investigating Capranica’s complaint, the male student admitted to assaulting her, according to Capranica and professors who helped her file her case. He was put on probation and told to write a book report. Capranica said the investigators didn’t talk to witnesses who might have helped establish his predatory behavior. She decided to graduate early, at the end of 2012, because she felt let down by Occidental.
Mee found her investigation even more frustrating.Ten Times
Between the investigators, administrators and officials at the hearing, Mee said she told her story about 10 times. She left each meeting in tears and had trouble sleeping. She took incompletes in two classes, finishing during vacation time, she spent much of her time doing homework in the library’s basement. She joined a support group and began seeing a therapist, saying she felt depressed.
Mee asked whether her assailant could be moved off campus during the investigation. A school administrator who had spoken with the alleged attacker said he wasn’t dangerous enough to be asked to leave, Mee said. “They acted like they could judge his character just from meeting with him,” she said.
December Return
After the three-month probe, the man Mee accused was found responsible for her assault and expelled, according to documents. In accordance with school procedures, he filed an appeal. Then, on Jan. 12, Mee got a message from the Office of Student Conduct, saying the male student would be allowed to return to campus in December, after she graduated. He would also have to write a report on a book about sexual assault, Mee said.
In April, a third female student came to the Occidental Sexual Assault Coalition, a group of students and faculty fighting campus rape, saying she had been assaulted by the same man and that he had been found responsible by the college, said Caroline Heldman, chairman of Occidental’s politics department and a faculty member of the group. “We’re talking about a perpetrator with several victims,” Heldman said. “It just seems like a no-brainer that if you identified a serial rapist, you would expel him.”
After graduating last month, Mee is planning on law school next year, following her mother, who specializes in arbitration and mediation. Mee said she’s unlikely to return to Occidental in the months or years to come because the male student will be back on campus. “I can’t come back and visit the college I went to and visit my friends,” she said. “And if he comes back, there are other people at risk of being assaulted.”